Total Posts:236|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What does In the Beginning mean?

bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 2:57:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

THE BIG BANG, maybe?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:03:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:57:29 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

THE BIG BANG, maybe?
Or perhaps the spontaneous existence of the god concept, the universe, existence and life?
The beginning must be the beginning, there can't be anything before THE BEGINNING surely?
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:13:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.

I really don't think that what most christians ( do you mean Catholics?) claim determines what the words say, you are doing a madman.
The "word of god" claims that "in the beginning".
Are you prepared, like madman, to call your god a liar?
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:16:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 3:13:20 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.

I really don't think that what most christians ( do you mean Catholics?) claim determines what the words say, you are doing a madman.
The "word of god" claims that "in the beginning".
Are you prepared, like madman, to call your god a liar?

Nope ....

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female .... " (Matt 19: 4)

That doesn't mean the same as "in the beginning" in Genesis, unless you think Genesis teaches that human were created first, then the earth came later.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:29:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 3:16:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:13:20 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.

I really don't think that what most christians ( do you mean Catholics?) claim determines what the words say, you are doing a madman.
The "word of god" claims that "in the beginning".
Are you prepared, like madman, to call your god a liar?

Nope ....

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female .... " (Matt 19: 4)

That doesn't mean the same as "in the beginning" in Genesis, unless you think Genesis teaches that human were created first, then the earth came later.
Oh Annie, providing a contradiction allegedly professed by the god you claim is infallible is simply ridiculous, it doesn't support anything at all.
Is your god wrong when he says "in the beginning"? Or is he wrong when he says "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female" Because that is not what he said at the "beginning".
Does your god not know what "the beginning" is?
12_13
Posts: 1,365
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 3:52:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

I have understood that beginning means the beginning of this world. It was the moment when earth and all was created.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 4:08:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 3:29:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:16:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:13:20 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.

I really don't think that what most christians ( do you mean Catholics?) claim determines what the words say, you are doing a madman.
The "word of god" claims that "in the beginning".
Are you prepared, like madman, to call your god a liar?

Nope ....

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female .... " (Matt 19: 4)

That doesn't mean the same as "in the beginning" in Genesis, unless you think Genesis teaches that human were created first, then the earth came later.

Oh Annie, providing a contradiction allegedly professed by the god you claim is infallible is simply ridiculous, it doesn't support anything at all.
Is your god wrong when he says "in the beginning"? Or is he wrong when he says "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female" Because that is not what he said at the "beginning".
Does your god not know what "the beginning" is?

I didn't provide a contradiction at all. I provided an example of exactly what I said:

"Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans."

Here's another:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." (Acts 11: 15)

According to you, why, old Peter is making the claiming that the Holy Spirit descended upon him and the other apostles back yonder at creation.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
kp98
Posts: 729
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 4:24:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?

It's neither. The Bible - or the relevant parts of it - is best seen as a 'national epic', a sort of patriotic legend. Far from being created by ignorant nomads, it was written by skilled propagandists with a clear purpose in mind.

That purpose was to maintain the cohesion and identity of the Judaic people, particularly in the period of the Babylonian exile when (most scholars agree) the OT started to take on its familiar form. The success of this propaganda is evident - the Jewish people are still in existence 2000 year later and the influene of the Bible is indisputable. Such propaganda is hardly the work of ignorant nomads.

Genesis - and the subsequent history books of the OT - re-defined the Jewish people by providing them with a history. That history had little to do with real events - it was not intended as objective reportage but as an inspiration to a people who had been almost totally destroyed, existing only as exiled remnant far from their land.

Significantly, the Babylonian defeat had destroyed Jewish royalty which had always acted as a secular counterweight to the power of the priesthood. In exile, the priests invented a fictional, theocratic Israel and enshrined it in a written scripture in order that orthodoxy could be defined and hence enforced.

As an example of the sort of thing the writers of genesis did, it seems very plausible that the story of the escape from Egypt under Moses (which never happened) was intended to desctbe what the Jewish exiles should expect to happen any day- as long as they were good Jews and kept the faith.

There is a lot more to be said on this but I'll leave it there. It isn't that the Bible is true, or that it is anything other than a purely human construction, but we atheists are sometimes guilty of begin somewhat rude about the bible. Understandable, I suppose but the Bible is more than a collection of random ramblings.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 4:51:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 4:24:31 PM, kp98 wrote:
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?

It's neither. The Bible - or the relevant parts of it - is best seen as a 'national epic', a sort of patriotic legend. Far from being created by ignorant nomads, it was written by skilled propagandists with a clear purpose in mind.

That purpose was to maintain the cohesion and identity of the Judaic people, particularly in the period of the Babylonian exile when (most scholars agree) the OT started to take on its familiar form. The success of this propaganda is evident - the Jewish people are still in existence 2000 year later and the influene of the Bible is indisputable. Such propaganda is hardly the work of ignorant nomads.

Genesis - and the subsequent history books of the OT - re-defined the Jewish people by providing them with a history. That history had little to do with real events - it was not intended as objective reportage but as an inspiration to a people who had been almost totally destroyed, existing only as exiled remnant far from their land.

Significantly, the Babylonian defeat had destroyed Jewish royalty which had always acted as a secular counterweight to the power of the priesthood. In exile, the priests invented a fictional, theocratic Israel and enshrined it in a written scripture in order that orthodoxy could be defined and hence enforced.

As an example of the sort of thing the writers of genesis did, it seems very plausible that the story of the escape from Egypt under Moses (which never happened) was intended to desctbe what the Jewish exiles should expect to happen any day- as long as they were good Jews and kept the faith.

There is a lot more to be said on this but I'll leave it there. It isn't that the Bible is true, or that it is anything other than a purely human construction, but we atheists are sometimes guilty of begin somewhat rude about the bible. Understandable, I suppose but the Bible is more than a collection of random ramblings.

Does this have anything to do with the hebrew god saying "in the beginning"?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 4:54:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 3:52:40 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

I have understood that beginning means the beginning of this world. It was the moment when earth and all was created.

And I'm sure that your sunday school catechism keeps you happy in your ignorance.
You have never made an intelligent comment much less an adult one in all the time you have been here.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 4:57:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 4:08:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:29:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:16:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:13:20 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 3:08:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?

Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans.

I really don't think that what most christians ( do you mean Catholics?) claim determines what the words say, you are doing a madman.
The "word of god" claims that "in the beginning".
Are you prepared, like madman, to call your god a liar?

Nope ....

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female .... " (Matt 19: 4)

That doesn't mean the same as "in the beginning" in Genesis, unless you think Genesis teaches that human were created first, then the earth came later.

Oh Annie, providing a contradiction allegedly professed by the god you claim is infallible is simply ridiculous, it doesn't support anything at all.
Is your god wrong when he says "in the beginning"? Or is he wrong when he says "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female" Because that is not what he said at the "beginning".
Does your god not know what "the beginning" is?

I didn't provide a contradiction at all. I provided an example of exactly what I said:

"Most Christians claim that "in the beginning" is a context-driven phrase. "In the beginning ... " of what? It might simply refer to the creation of humans."

Here's another:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." (Acts 11: 15)

According to you, why, old Peter is making the claiming that the Holy Spirit descended upon him and the other apostles back yonder at creation.

Do you mean that your god provides the contradictions and that should convince me?

Allegedly your god said "IN THE BEGINNING", was your god lying when he allegedly said that?
kp98
Posts: 729
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 6:08:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Does this have anything to do with the hebrew god saying "in the beginning"?

I didn't address that question, I addressed this one from your OP:

Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 6:13:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 6:08:55 PM, kp98 wrote:
Does this have anything to do with the hebrew god saying "in the beginning"?

I didn't address that question, I addressed this one from your OP:

Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
You may notice how intertwined they are under the circumstances.
But if not, I understand.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

In scripture beginning means just that.

It means start, first act, the moment something commences.

It also depends on what you mean, beginning of.

God has no beginning, he existed before time was created.

His first act was to create his son, also known as the Archangel, Michael, The Word, and latterly the Christ or the Messiah when he became incarnate.

He then used his son to create the Angels, and then the physical realms.

Gensesis 1, if you work around the obvious mistranslation of verse 14 tells us that:

V1. God created the physical heavens and the earth.

This is what proves the mistranslation of v14, because, you cannot create the sun moon and stars twice over, and they are the physical heavens.

You can however make them visible, which is the only thing that v14 can actually be describing.

V2 onwards, he commenced to prepare the planet for life, and create the various forms of life on that planet.

Genesis 1, does not give many details. It misses a lot out in order to contain the information it does give in that one chapter, and not make scripture too unwieldy when in scroll form.

However the very few details it does give us, fit in precisely with what science has been able to prove.

It tells us what we need to know, no more.

Hence even some scientists, including a Planetary Geologist who works with NASA, accept that account absolutely.

This is his story.

http://wol.jw.org...

Interestingly, by saying that the waters on the earth were gathered into one place, scripture implies that there was only on continent.

This we know.

Genesis 10:25 tel;ls us that post deluge, the earth was divided.

YLT(i) 25 And to Eber have two sons been born; the name of the one is Peleg (for in his days hath the earth been divided,) and his brother's name is Joktan.

The very fact that we have so many continents and islands now proves that happened beyond any doubt.

Also, interestingly, Genesis 1:4-8 describes some of the water being taken up into the upper atmosphere, this would have protected the earth from all forms of cosmic radiation, and contains earth's own radiation inside it. It could thus have made an absolute nonsense of science's current methods of time measurement.

It could also be a physical reason for the sudden shortening of lifespans caused when those waters above the expanse were brought down, in a rush, onto the earth. There are a number of things for which science currently has no explanation which could easily be explained by just such an occurrence.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/8/2015 11:21:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

In scripture beginning means just that.

It means start, first act, the moment something commences.

It also depends on what you mean, beginning of.

God has no beginning, he existed before time was created.

His first act was to create his son, also known as the Archangel, Michael, The Word, and latterly the Christ or the Messiah when he became incarnate.

How could God create his son as an archangel unless God himself was an angel? But we know angels are God's messengers and servants. And Michael was the head of the servants. But that did not make him God's son. Jesus was not an angel or the incarnate of an archangel Michael. Jesus was the son of God. God never addressed Jesus as Michael or an angel. Get your scriptures right.

He then used his son to create the Angels, and then the physical realms.

Gensesis 1, if you work around the obvious mistranslation of verse 14 tells us that:

V1. God created the physical heavens and the earth.

This is what proves the mistranslation of v14, because, you cannot create the sun moon and stars twice over, and they are the physical heavens.

You can however make them visible, which is the only thing that v14 can actually be describing.

V2 onwards, he commenced to prepare the planet for life, and create the various forms of life on that planet.

Genesis 1, does not give many details. It misses a lot out in order to contain the information it does give in that one chapter, and not make scripture too unwieldy when in scroll form.

However the very few details it does give us, fit in precisely with what science has been able to prove.

It tells us what we need to know, no more.

Hence even some scientists, including a Planetary Geologist who works with NASA, accept that account absolutely.

This is his story.

http://wol.jw.org...

Interestingly, by saying that the waters on the earth were gathered into one place, scripture implies that there was only on continent.

This we know.

Genesis 10:25 tel;ls us that post deluge, the earth was divided.

YLT(i) 25 And to Eber have two sons been born; the name of the one is Peleg (for in his days hath the earth been divided,) and his brother's name is Joktan.

The very fact that we have so many continents and islands now proves that happened beyond any doubt.

Also, interestingly, Genesis 1:4-8 describes some of the water being taken up into the upper atmosphere, this would have protected the earth from all forms of cosmic radiation, and contains earth's own radiation inside it. It could thus have made an absolute nonsense of science's current methods of time measurement.

It could also be a physical reason for the sudden shortening of lifespans caused when those waters above the expanse were brought down, in a rush, onto the earth. There are a number of things for which science currently has no explanation which could easily be explained by just such an occurrence.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 5:14:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

In scripture beginning means just that.
Yes
It means start, first act, the moment something commences.
In fact the moment EVERYTHING commences.
It also depends on what you mean, beginning of.
You've just answered that. Have you forgotten, look just above this line.
God has no beginning, he existed before time was created.
Says who?
<snipped jehovian propaganda>
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 11:04:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 5:14:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

In scripture beginning means just that.

Yes

Wow, you agreed with me, lol.

It means start, first act, the moment something commences.

In fact the moment EVERYTHING commences.

In this context, yes.

It also depends on what you mean, beginning of.
You've just answered that. Have you forgotten, look just above this line.

Only partially answered it. Scripture describes many beginnings, of many things.

God has no beginning, he existed before time was created.

Says who?

He says so himself, and he should know.

<snipped jehovian propaganda>

You mean scriptural propaganda, because everything the JWs teach comes from their understanding of scripture. (See, I carefully qualified my statements and left nothing for you to have to assume, lol, I know how literal you are by now, especially when it comes to my postings.).
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 11:11:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 11:21:35 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

How could God create his son as an archangel unless God himself was an angel? But we know angels are God's messengers and servants. And Michael was the head of the servants. But that did not make him God's son. Jesus was not an angel or the incarnate of an archangel Michael. Jesus was the son of God. God never addressed Jesus as Michael or an angel. Get your scriptures right.

Angel is merely a title, which means "messenger".

However all the Angels are, as is Jehovah, spirit beings. He created them from his own substance, without changing it significantly.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 11:20:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:11:47 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 11:21:35 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

How could God create his son as an archangel unless God himself was an angel? But we know angels are God's messengers and servants. And Michael was the head of the servants. But that did not make him God's son. Jesus was not an angel or the incarnate of an archangel Michael. Jesus was the son of God. God never addressed Jesus as Michael or an angel. Get your scriptures right.


Angel is merely a title, which means "messenger".

However all the Angels are, as is Jehovah, spirit beings. He created them from his own substance, without changing it significantly.

And you know that for a fact because????????????????
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 11:49:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:20:09 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:11:47 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 11:21:35 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

How could God create his son as an archangel unless God himself was an angel? But we know angels are God's messengers and servants. And Michael was the head of the servants. But that did not make him God's son. Jesus was not an angel or the incarnate of an archangel Michael. Jesus was the son of God. God never addressed Jesus as Michael or an angel. Get your scriptures right.


Angel is merely a title, which means "messenger".

However all the Angels are, as is Jehovah, spirit beings. He created them from his own substance, without changing it significantly.

And you know that for a fact because????????????????

There was nothing else for him to create them from, and all are described as spirit beings, living in the spirit realm, the true Heaven.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 11:52:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:04:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2015 5:14:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/8/2015 7:44:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

In scripture beginning means just that.

Yes

Wow, you agreed with me, lol.

It means start, first act, the moment something commences.

In fact the moment EVERYTHING commences.

In this context, yes.

It also depends on what you mean, beginning of.
You've just answered that. Have you forgotten, look just above this line.

Only partially answered it. Scripture describes many beginnings, of many things.

God has no beginning, he existed before time was created.

Says who?

He says so himself, and he should know.
When and where? Supply the quote.
<snipped jehovian propaganda>

You mean scriptural propaganda, because everything the JWs teach comes from their understanding of scripture. (See, I carefully qualified my statements and left nothing for you to have to assume, lol, I know how literal you are by now, especially when it comes to my postings.).
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 12:04:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:04:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

You mean scriptural propaganda, because everything the JWs teach comes from their understanding of scripture.
That is contradicting the claims you have made for years.
(See, I carefully qualified my statements and left nothing for you to have to assume, lol, I know how literal you are by now, especially when it comes to my postings.).
Yes mad, you are now claiming something that contradicts what you have claimed for years, thus making at least one of those claims a LIE.
Your claim for years has been that the jehovians only ever teach what scripture teaches, you have now changed that to they teach what they think or want scripture to say.
Your qualification only proves that you have lied for years, it's too bad you aren't sharp enough to know.
LMFAO
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 12:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


According to Mhykiel "in the beginning" is all the time before mankind and Earth were around. That's how he tries to get around that the 'heavens' existed for 9 billion years before the Earth formed. So he equivocates on the meaning of 'beginnning' and then proceeds to equivocate on what 'created' means since the Earth was not created - it formed through entirely natural processes. It's like saying a farmer creates corn plants. He plants the seeds, perhaps irrigates the land and allows them to grow. That's not creation.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


It appears that here "in the beginning" really means before anything, including the heavens, was created. Oh well, consistency is not one of God's strong points!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 12:40:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 12:21:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


According to Mhykiel "in the beginning" is all the time before mankind and Earth were around. That's how he tries to get around that the 'heavens' existed for 9 billion years before the Earth formed. So he equivocates on the meaning of 'beginnning' and then proceeds to equivocate on what 'created' means since the Earth was not created - it formed through entirely natural processes. It's like saying a farmer creates corn plants. He plants the seeds, perhaps irrigates the land and allows them to grow. That's not creation.

I don't see the need to get around anything. least of all the inevitable inaccuracies of scientific tie measurements pre-history which fail to take into account changes to radiation levels pre and post flood.

The fact that Genesis 1:1 starts off with, "in the beginning" gives us absolutely no clue as to how long that first act, or series of acts, will have taken. It is simply a statement making it clear that those were the first things that Jehovah created in the physical realm.

It doesn't even give us any idea of what order the different parts were created in either.

There is no reason to doubt that the events that were in that first phase may have taken millions, even billions of years, especially when you get to know how Jehovah works, and the patience he shows in how he does things.

Knowing how the designer and creator works helps a lot in understanding what was done, why it was done, and what it was done for.


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


It appears that here "in the beginning" really means before anything, including the heavens, was created. Oh well, consistency is not one of God's strong points!

In fact consistency is very much Jehovah's forte.

The simple fact is that Scripture describes many beginnings.

John 1:1 describes the beginning of everything, his creation of the Word, his only begotten son.

Genesis 1:1 describes the beginning of the creation of the physical universe and all that it contains.

It should not take a great deal of thought to realise that. The context of the statement makes it absolutely clear.

Jehovah has always done things patiently and in a defined order, in fact order is at the centre of all that he does, nothing is haphazard, nothing left to chance, unless you count trusting his intelligent creations to use the free will he gave them wisely as leaving that to chance.

Certainly nothing else is.

Evidence of the patience and care with which Jehovah does things is most clearly demonstrated in the fact that between his announcement of a "seed" that would hamper Satan's freedom of action to the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and the initial revealing of that "seed" took approximately 4,000 years, and the final revealing of that "seed" will have taken approximately another 2,000 years.

When Jehovah put's his mind and heart not something it is done slowly, carefully, and thoroughly. This applies also to his proving to Satan, and all who are watching, that nothing Satan attempts will have total success.

His word, the Bible, is primarily, or most basically, the written evidence of just that, some of which we have been told even before it happens.

So, when you read "in the beginning" in scripture ask yourself, the beginning of what? and then read on to find out the answer.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 12:51:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 12:40:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2015 12:21:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:

John 1:1 describes the beginning of everything, his creation of the Word, his only begotten son.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, "kai theos en ho logos." (John 1: 1, ASV)

The passage says not a word - one way or another - about any "creation of the Word." This is yet another attempt by you to inject some JW nonsense into an unrelated subject.

Of course, you do a little better - not much, but a little - with John 1: 1 than you do with Acts 20: 28. In the case of the latter, you simply determined that the passage was wrong in the first place. Wrong in English. Wrong in Greek. And wrong in any other language. It contradicts JW doctrine, so it needs "editing". LOL. With John 1: 1, however, you simply add a word to it, although the same opportunity exists in John 1: 6, and you don't add it there.

By what GRAMMATICAL rule - not just your claims - do you add an indefinite article in John 1: 1 and yet leave it out in John 1: 6? Cite it. If you'll merely cite the work, the page number, etc., it'll save you the time of rambling and babbling.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 1:14:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 12:40:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The fact that Genesis 1:1 starts off with, "in the beginning" gives us absolutely no clue as to how long that first act, or series of acts, will have taken. It is simply a statement making it clear that those were the first things that Jehovah created in the physical realm.
No it says categorically that "in the beginning".
Pretending that the beginning can mean anything else is the pathetic denial that godbotherers need to believe.
Otherwise all of their poor simple beliefs are just blown out of the water.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/9/2015 1:29:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/8/2015 2:55:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
Is it the beginning or is it after the beginning as most christians claim?
Is the bible, ergo genesis, the word of god or is it just rubbish created by ignorant middle east nomads?
What happened in the beginning?
The beginning according to the god of the bible is the BEGINNING.
What do you think that means if not the beginning of everything?
Apparently in the beginning god became, just as everything else did.