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Atheists face an irresolvable problem

bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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10/10/2015 1:38:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?
When babies rape butterflies is that morally good?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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10/10/2015 3:09:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This again? I know you have been given answers to this. I gace an answer to this a long time ago and you never responded.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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10/10/2015 4:58:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

How would you tell the difference?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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10/10/2015 3:18:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Both.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/10/2015 3:49:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It has both elements. I don't know why Ben seems to think he has some kind of silver bullet against atheism with objective versus subjective. It's not relevant and it is a silly way to argue.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/10/2015 7:50:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:

Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

Yeah Ben. You should be on a religious board somewhere talking to your fellow God botherers instead of harassing atheists here on this atheist boar......

oh, wait.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/10/2015 7:53:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Notice all of them have dodged your question? Let me help.

Whatever your definition of truth is, does that truth have objective or subjective value?

They'll still dodge, this will only make the dodge more obvious. Which is my sole intent.
One_Servant
Posts: 34
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10/10/2015 7:56:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value? : :

Truth is objective to the Creator who created everything. Everything we created beings experience is subjective with our created senses and that's what kept His people from knowing the Truth. When the Truth comes to one of His chosen people. that person learns that all his senses are subjective and that our Creator is the only ONE who is real.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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10/10/2015 8:51:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
wtf...
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/10/2015 10:21:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Truth" meaning what corresponds to reality.

"Objective" meaning definitive.

"Value" meaning preference.

Is whatever corresponds with reality definitively preferable to things that don't correspond with reality?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/10/2015 10:28:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

I'm not talking about "truth value" I'm taking about "the valuing of truth". I mean "value" in the sense of preference or regard. Does truth have objective preference or regard in comparison to things that aren't true?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/10/2015 10:30:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 3:09:55 AM, SNP1 wrote:
This again? I know you have been given answers to this. I gace an answer to this a long time ago and you never responded.

I'd been given answers, but none of them resolved the problem. I remember going back and forth with Double R at length and it ended up exemplifying the problem. What was your answer?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/10/2015 11:25:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 10:28:06 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

I'm not talking about "truth value" I'm taking about "the valuing of truth". I mean "value" in the sense of preference or regard. Does truth have objective preference or regard in comparison to things that aren't true?

What do you mean by "objective preference or regard"?
To answer your question, I believe the value of truth is determined by the person judging something as true or not.

Ken

Ken
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/11/2015 12:04:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 11:25:47 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:28:06 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

I'm not talking about "truth value" I'm taking about "the valuing of truth". I mean "value" in the sense of preference or regard. Does truth have objective preference or regard in comparison to things that aren't true?

What do you mean by "objective preference or regard"?
To answer your question, I believe the value of truth is determined by the person judging something as true or not.

Ken

Ken

I'm speaking in terms of what it means to "value" something. If a person prefers to live a life of delusion vs. a person that prefers to live according to the truth, is one way of living actually preferable to the other or does it depend on personal preference?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/11/2015 12:11:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?

That would be problematic. Atheism is a rationally held belief because it's believed to be true. But if "truth" doesn't have objective value, any belief becomes arbitrary. Believing in true things is actually just as preferable as living a life of delusion.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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10/11/2015 12:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Every further post makes this more cringeworthy.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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10/11/2015 12:31:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:11:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?

That would be problematic. Atheism is a rationally held belief because it's believed to be true. But if "truth" doesn't have objective value, any belief becomes arbitrary. Believing in true things is actually just as preferable as living a life of delusion.

Atheism is not a belief, either rational or irrational.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/11/2015 1:05:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:31:56 PM, desmac wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:11:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?

That would be problematic. Atheism is a rationally held belief because it's believed to be true. But if "truth" doesn't have objective value, any belief becomes arbitrary. Believing in true things is actually just as preferable as living a life of delusion.

Atheism is not a belief, either rational or irrational.

Then why adopt a label of "atheism" if doesn't seek to describe anything about reality?
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/11/2015 1:36:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:04:09 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 11:25:47 PM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:28:06 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

I'm not talking about "truth value" I'm taking about "the valuing of truth". I mean "value" in the sense of preference or regard. Does truth have objective preference or regard in comparison to things that aren't true?

What do you mean by "objective preference or regard"?
To answer your question, I believe the value of truth is determined by the person judging something as true or not.

Ken

Ken

I'm speaking in terms of what it means to "value" something. If a person prefers to live a life of delusion vs. a person that prefers to live according to the truth, is one way of living actually preferable to the other or does it depend on personal preference?

Both; one way of living is actually preferable to the other, and that preference depends upon personal preference. And if I may take this a bit further" because 99.9% of society prefers to live according to the truth (most of the time) the truth becomes the standard and we deal with those who choose to live delusional as mentally sick.

Ken
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/11/2015 1:45:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:11:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?

That would be problematic. Atheism is a rationally held belief because it's believed to be true. But if "truth" doesn't have objective value, any belief becomes arbitrary. Believing in true things is actually just as preferable as living a life of delusion.

But if truth DID have objective value, then that truth would be the only option because that truth would be demonstrable via proof, and the choice of delusion would no longer be an option. A quick look at the real world and you will see delusion IS an option because the truth (that you speak of) has subjective value; rather than objective value.

Ken
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/11/2015 1:57:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 1:05:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:31:56 PM, desmac wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:11:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:12:43 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:32:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 3:11:57 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

First off, why don't you define truth so that the readers may provide an answer, and secondly why do you advance this question to atheists? What is your infatuation with atheism?

It wouldn't matter what definition of truth is used. For simplicity let's say "what corresponds with fact or reality."

It's advanced to atheists because atheism is incompatible with the notion of objective value (philosophically), which highlights the problem that is poses.

Doesn't that mean we can avoid the problem by saying truth has subjective value?

That would be problematic. Atheism is a rationally held belief because it's believed to be true. But if "truth" doesn't have objective value, any belief becomes arbitrary. Believing in true things is actually just as preferable as living a life of delusion.

Atheism is not a belief, either rational or irrational.

Then why adopt a label of "atheism" if doesn't seek to describe anything about reality?

Good point. The term "atheist" was initially a pejorative theists came up with to describe those who didn"t believe in the existence of God. IMO Atheism shouldn"t even be a word; we don"t have words that describe those who don"t believe in Santa, Big Foot, or Lockness Monster, but when it comes to God, those believes have enough power in society to label and insult those who do not believe. That"s why I prefer the term "skeptic" or "non-believer" because I do not like using terms given to me by those who don"t respect me.

Ken
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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10/11/2015 2:27:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

also lying could be the right thing to do
such as, during world war 2 nazis come around and ask you if you know where any jews are.
or your granny is on her death bed and wants you to convert to her religion
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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10/11/2015 2:29:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 10:28:06 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

I'm not talking about "truth value" I'm taking about "the valuing of truth". I mean "value" in the sense of preference or regard. Does truth have objective preference or regard in comparison to things that aren't true?

also lying could be the right thing to do
such as, during world war 2 nazis come around and ask you if you know where any jews are.
or your granny is on her death bed and wants you to convert to her religion
ken1122
Posts: 480
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10/11/2015 2:39:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 2:27:57 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:47:10 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:24:25 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does "truth" have objective or subjective value?

Truth can be objective or subjective. 1+1=2 is not only correct, but it is an objective (demonstrable) true statement
"Lying is wrong", is a subjective (left up to interpretation) moral statement.

Ken

also lying could be the right thing to do
such as, during world war 2 nazis come around and ask you if you know where any jews are.
or your granny is on her death bed and wants you to convert to her religion
Yes! That was my point. The moral issue of lying is subjective, not objective because interpretation and extenuating circumstances are taken into consideration when judging it as a lie.

Ken
kp98
Posts: 729
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10/11/2015 3:01:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Lying is wrong" may not always be true, but it hardly demonstrates that all moral statements are subjective. For example, noting that 'lying is wrong' doesn't always apply, we might want to consider 'saying something that causes suffering is wrong', which is more nearly always true. Given time, it may be possible to find a phrase that is always true.

There gave been any number of threads and posts that deny the existence of objective morality based on particular statements being morally ambigous, but strictly speaking such arguments don't count as proofs.