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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 7:47:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why are the Jewish people so oppressed, most of the time?

From Egyptians to Hitler, Why?

1: They come from the middle east, everyone gets oppressed there it's the law.
2: Israel was not a great place to settle as it finds itself of strategic importance to every Empire, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
4: Monotheism, it's awkward. Everyone hates you and you hate everyone. (Though I don't think ancient Israel was strictly monotheistic orginally, that probably came later in defeat and dispora).
5: As generally ethnic minority, people are always going to take their sh!t out on you.
6: Wealth, Jews just seem to be able to create it. If you are a rich religious and ethnic minority you are thrice damned.
7: They killed Jesus. Or rather Christianity liked to claim that.
8: Haha we killed Jesus... seriously, if you going to boast about you killed Jesus and denigrate his character don't live with a bunch of Christians.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/18/2010 9:37:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 7:47:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why are the Jewish people so oppressed, most of the time?

From Egyptians to Hitler, Why?

1: They come from the middle east, everyone gets oppressed there it's the law.
2: Israel was not a great place to settle as it finds itself of strategic importance to every Empire, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
4: Monotheism, it's awkward. Everyone hates you and you hate everyone. (Though I don't think ancient Israel was strictly monotheistic orginally, that probably came later in defeat and dispora).
5: As generally ethnic minority, people are always going to take their sh!t out on you.
6: Wealth, Jews just seem to be able to create it. If you are a rich religious and ethnic minority you are thrice damned.
7: They killed Jesus. Or rather Christianity liked to claim that.
8: Haha we killed Jesus... seriously, if you going to boast about you killed Jesus and denigrate his character don't live with a bunch of Christians.


I don't get that. They wouldn't be Christians if Jesus was still alive. They'd still be bashing in infants heads and sh!t like that. Plus it was prophacy that he should be killed. I don't get the christian complaints of the Jews.

Anyway I always thought that it was cause they are God's Chosen People so he must make them suffer and die and slave in mass.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/18/2010 9:43:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 9:37:36 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 7:47:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why are the Jewish people so oppressed, most of the time?

From Egyptians to Hitler, Why?

1: They come from the middle east, everyone gets oppressed there it's the law.
2: Israel was not a great place to settle as it finds itself of strategic importance to every Empire, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
4: Monotheism, it's awkward. Everyone hates you and you hate everyone. (Though I don't think ancient Israel was strictly monotheistic orginally, that probably came later in defeat and dispora).
5: As generally ethnic minority, people are always going to take their sh!t out on you.
6: Wealth, Jews just seem to be able to create it. If you are a rich religious and ethnic minority you are thrice damned.
7: They killed Jesus. Or rather Christianity liked to claim that.
8: Haha we killed Jesus... seriously, if you going to boast about you killed Jesus and denigrate his character don't live with a bunch of Christians.


I don't get that. They wouldn't be Christians if Jesus was still alive. They'd still be bashing in infants heads and sh!t like that. Plus it was prophacy that he should be killed. I don't get the christian complaints of the Jews.


Christian's don't like to follow through on logic and theology, or rather when they do they really follow through in a bad way.

Anyway I always thought that it was cause they are God's Chosen People so he must make them suffer and die and slave in mass.

Well maybe, in which the above are the mechanisms God has set up to allow his love and wisdom to come through,
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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9/18/2010 10:07:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 9:37:36 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 7:47:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why are the Jewish people so oppressed, most of the time?

From Egyptians to Hitler, Why?

1: They come from the middle east, everyone gets oppressed there it's the law.
2: Israel was not a great place to settle as it finds itself of strategic importance to every Empire, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
4: Monotheism, it's awkward. Everyone hates you and you hate everyone. (Though I don't think ancient Israel was strictly monotheistic orginally, that probably came later in defeat and dispora).
5: As generally ethnic minority, people are always going to take their sh!t out on you.
6: Wealth, Jews just seem to be able to create it. If you are a rich religious and ethnic minority you are thrice damned.
7: They killed Jesus. Or rather Christianity liked to claim that.
8: Haha we killed Jesus... seriously, if you going to boast about you killed Jesus and denigrate his character don't live with a bunch of Christians.


I don't get that. They wouldn't be Christians if Jesus was still alive. They'd still be bashing in infants heads and sh!t like that. Plus it was prophacy that he should be killed. I don't get the christian complaints of the Jews.

the Gosple of John was written with a anti-sentiment towards the jews, John writes in 'the jews did' in place of 'the pharisees did' through out it. I forget the historic context for why its like that but today any real christian respects jews, but does acknowledge they are still waiting for a savior who we know already came.

thier are christians though that believe in christ as savior but still claim to be jewish. its not just a set of beliefs to them its a racial heritage to say you are a jew.

Anyway I always thought that it was cause they are God's Chosen People so he must make them suffer and die and slave in mass.

That would be the reason I agree with actually. Isreale's people are chosen to be held to holier and to endure much harder lives for the rest of our sakes.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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9/18/2010 10:08:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 9:43:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Well maybe, in which the above are the mechanisms God has set up to allow his love and wisdom to come through,

through our weakness his glory shines best.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/18/2010 10:23:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 10:07:10 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:37:36 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 7:47:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why are the Jewish people so oppressed, most of the time?

From Egyptians to Hitler, Why?

1: They come from the middle east, everyone gets oppressed there it's the law.
2: Israel was not a great place to settle as it finds itself of strategic importance to every Empire, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
4: Monotheism, it's awkward. Everyone hates you and you hate everyone. (Though I don't think ancient Israel was strictly monotheistic orginally, that probably came later in defeat and dispora).
5: As generally ethnic minority, people are always going to take their sh!t out on you.
6: Wealth, Jews just seem to be able to create it. If you are a rich religious and ethnic minority you are thrice damned.
7: They killed Jesus. Or rather Christianity liked to claim that.
8: Haha we killed Jesus... seriously, if you going to boast about you killed Jesus and denigrate his character don't live with a bunch of Christians.


I don't get that. They wouldn't be Christians if Jesus was still alive. They'd still be bashing in infants heads and sh!t like that. Plus it was prophacy that he should be killed. I don't get the christian complaints of the Jews.

the Gosple of John was written with a anti-sentiment towards the jews, John writes in 'the jews did' in place of 'the pharisees did' through out it. I forget the historic context for why its like that but today any real christian respects jews, but does acknowledge they are still waiting for a savior who we know already came.


Okay John did it. Lol I guess I should blame the anti-semitism on people named John :p

thier are christians though that believe in christ as savior but still claim to be jewish. its not just a set of beliefs to them its a racial heritage to say you are a jew.


Yeah that was a big mind f-ck to me about a month ago. I think I have it sorta figured out. I'm more than likely part Jew.

Anyway I always thought that it was cause they are God's Chosen People so he must make them suffer and die and slave in mass.

That would be the reason I agree with actually. Isreale's people are chosen to be held to holier and to endure much harder lives for the rest of our sakes.

Yeah I'm not actually sure about it, but it would be a pretty good and reasonable explanation for anyone that believes, so its a pretty valid point.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
juvanya
Posts: 613
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9/18/2010 1:43:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I was just explaining this to INH.

A Short History of Anti-Semitism

The origins are antisemitism probably have their roots in Roman interactions with Jews. All the rebellions and suppressions and the fact that Jews refused to really assimilate ever, unlike the previous groups. The Romans had a profound influence on the Western world—perhaps even the founders of the West. The name Africa is so because the Romans called it that.

Then the Cult of Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus) starts around 0-100 CE. "Paul" needed to differentiate from Judaism enough to gain converts and discredit Judaism. So he dropped a lot of the laws of the Torah (circumcision, pork,...) and also wove in the whole Jews killed Jesus thing. This is fundamental. If the Romans were the soil, this was the seed.

As Christianity spread across the Roman Empire, it mixed with existing antisemitism and enhanced it. Churches blamed Jews for killing the "son of God". Jews began to have restrictions put on them on where they could live, what jobs they could hold, etc. This forced Jews into isolated communities "ghettos" and to jobs such as merchanting and moneychanging. The latter led to the whole "Jews are cheap" "Jews are rich" "Jews make money easily" complex. A Christian would have felt cheated every now and then and blamed the Jew for swindling him.

Jews also lived in communities of varied isolation. This allowed suspicion to run rampant of the devils work and whatnot. When disease spread and many Christians died while few Jews did, it was said they were either of the Devil, committing some protective sorcery, or they were spreading the disease by "poisoning the wells". Jews also kept cleaner by washing frequently and abstaining from pork. Jews knew hygiene centuries in advance!

Whenever a Christian child went missing or died suddenly, the family might blame Jews. This is the blood libel. Jews were accused of kidnapping Christian babies to make wine and matzah with the blood. We still see this today with the claims of organ harvesting.

All of this mixed together and flowed around Europe between 800 and 1400s, taking hold at various times. The grip never relaxed and Christians would tell their children about the Jews and their evil deeds. Generation after generation after generation and there is anywhere from 500 to 700 or more years of this floating around. It became a cultural aspect of Europe. It was in European collective "DNA". Even today, 1 in 3 Europeans will admit to being suspicious or hateful of Jews. It would not be long after that when this antisemitic ether gave birth to a man named Adolf Hitler.

I could go into the history of Islamic antisemitism, which is just as pervasive and now even worse than Europe. 9 out of 10 Muslims have negative feelings towards Jews. Not Israelis, Jews. And it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Israel or its action.

The cultural environment of antisemitism today has created the double standards, hypocrisy, and unwarranted hatred/derision of Israel. The European antisemites, empowered by Muslim antisemitism, adopted Israel hatred as a way to manifest their hatred of Jews. It even lets them get off by claiming they are just against Israels "harsh policies". But that antisemitism created the fertile ground for Israel hatred. On top of it are people—bleeding hearts—who want a cause to uphold. While they probably are not antisemitic themselves, they see others hating Israel and get sucked up by the reasoning into it too. Thus, virtually all opposition to Israel is antisemitic in origin.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/18/2010 3:46:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 1:20:21 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
?

A very successful Jewish state, but located in southern russia on the highway of migrations.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
juvanya
Posts: 613
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9/18/2010 6:25:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 3:46:08 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 1:20:21 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
?

A very successful Jewish state, but located in southern russia on the highway of migrations.
Hardly successful. It lasted maybe four centuries. And its role is exaggerated by some. Not to mention it is used by antisemites and some brainless Jews living among antisemites to delegitimize Israel. Finally, it wasnt even a settlement of Jews. It was an existing kingdom that converted and later vanished into the ether.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/18/2010 6:28:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:25:48 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 3:46:08 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/18/2010 1:20:21 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 9:31:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
3: Khazaria's location was ultimately suicidal.
?

A very successful Jewish state, but located in southern russia on the highway of migrations.
Hardly successful. It lasted maybe four centuries. And its role is exaggerated by some. Not to mention it is used by antisemites and some brainless Jews living among antisemites to delegitimize Israel. Finally, it wasnt even a settlement of Jews. It was an existing kingdom that converted and later vanished into the ether.

Four centuries is a long time, and it was a superpower at it's height. I don't really care about the arguments of antisemites, it called itself Jewish and had a fat wad of Jewish blood in its genepool. I'll leave the tedious debates as to who or what is a Jew to the nazi's and the rabbis.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/18/2010 6:37:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It even lets them get off by claiming they are just against Israels "harsh policies". But that antisemitism created the fertile ground for Israel hatred. On top of it are people—bleeding hearts—who want a cause to uphold. While they probably are not antisemitic themselves, they see others hating Israel and get sucked up by the reasoning into it too. Thus, virtually all opposition to Israel is antisemitic in origin.

*sigh* mom wants to nuke the middle east to end the harsh penalties and evil culture <of killing...yes killing everyone to save their lives, there's brilliance>
I wonder if she realizes that shes just feeding into the anti-semetism.
Sure I believe that they need to stop what they deem cultrally beneficial, and acceptable. I thought Jesus and other such people did such things with peace. I'm ashamed that she even calls herself a christian and looks down upon what she deems as fake christians. <sure they are fake christians, but she's not much better>

Basically what I gather from what you've said is that ignorance spread, became hatred, and then came to be attempts at genocide, cast out from society, war with about everyone else, etc because they wouldn't join suit with a forceful empire. Then they try the same thing again. I really wonder when people will try and get things to stop in a positive way.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/18/2010 6:42:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:37:20 PM, lovelife wrote:

*sigh* mom wants to nuke the middle east to end the harsh penalties and evil culture <of killing...yes killing everyone to save their lives, there's brilliance>
I wonder if she realizes that shes just feeding into the anti-semetism.
Sure I believe that they need to stop what they deem cultrally beneficial, and acceptable. I thought Jesus and other such people did such things with peace. I'm ashamed that she even calls herself a christian and looks down upon what she deems as fake christians. <sure they are fake christians, but she's not much better>

Basically what I gather from what you've said is that ignorance spread, became hatred, and then came to be attempts at genocide, cast out from society, war with about everyone else, etc because they wouldn't join suit with a forceful empire. Then they try the same thing again. I really wonder when people will try and get things to stop in a positive way.

lmao, that's really going to solve things. I personally think we should just leave the middle east alone. Sure, they have certain practices that the west deems as barbaric. However, most of those people don't so what's the harm as long as they're not influencing us? So yea, leave them alone unless some army from a middle eastern country comes over here and starts attacking the west. Ok, that's the end of my rant. Back on topic, folks.
lovelife
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9/18/2010 6:49:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:42:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/18/2010 6:37:20 PM, lovelife wrote:

*sigh* mom wants to nuke the middle east to end the harsh penalties and evil culture <of killing...yes killing everyone to save their lives, there's brilliance>
I wonder if she realizes that shes just feeding into the anti-semetism.
Sure I believe that they need to stop what they deem cultrally beneficial, and acceptable. I thought Jesus and other such people did such things with peace. I'm ashamed that she even calls herself a christian and looks down upon what she deems as fake christians. <sure they are fake christians, but she's not much better>

Basically what I gather from what you've said is that ignorance spread, became hatred, and then came to be attempts at genocide, cast out from society, war with about everyone else, etc because they wouldn't join suit with a forceful empire. Then they try the same thing again. I really wonder when people will try and get things to stop in a positive way.

lmao, that's really going to solve things. I personally think we should just leave the middle east alone. Sure, they have certain practices that the west deems as barbaric. However, most of those people don't so what's the harm as long as they're not influencing us? So yea, leave them alone unless some army from a middle eastern country comes over here and starts attacking the west. Ok, that's the end of my rant. Back on topic, folks.

Eh, my aunt posted something about a woman being beaten into admitting having an affair and now she's gunna get stoned to death and mom was all "THATS WHY WE NEED TO BOMB THE F-CK OUT OF THEM!!" then my dad was all "lol they have a differnt idea of getting stoned then us :p" then mom got all pissed and said that jokes solve nothing only craters will solve it.
I'd say peaceful protests would go a long way. Just cause the Jews and Muslims don't see Jesus as divine as the Christians doesn't mean they can't learn lessons from him <mainly, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone">
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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9/18/2010 6:53:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:49:18 PM, lovelife wrote:

Eh, my aunt posted something about a woman being beaten into admitting having an affair and now she's gunna get stoned to death and mom was all "THATS WHY WE NEED TO BOMB THE F-CK OUT OF THEM!!" then my dad was all "lol they have a differnt idea of getting stoned then us :p" then mom got all pissed and said that jokes solve nothing only craters will solve it.
I'd say peaceful protests would go a long way. Just cause the Jews and Muslims don't see Jesus as divine as the Christians doesn't mean they can't learn lessons from him <mainly, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone">

See, those are the kinds of things I was referring to. Bombing the sh*t out of countries isn't going to bring them democracy. Besides, as much as the west wants the middle east to be democratic it won't be. Islam is authoritarian by nature. You can't change that. Many people in the west don't realize that Islamic law covers all aspects of life, unlike Christian law which only covers certain aspects. We should seriously stop though and take this to the spam thread.
Mirza
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9/18/2010 6:53:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:49:18 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/18/2010 6:42:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/18/2010 6:37:20 PM, lovelife wrote:

*sigh* mom wants to nuke the middle east to end the harsh penalties and evil culture <of killing...yes killing everyone to save their lives, there's brilliance>
I wonder if she realizes that shes just feeding into the anti-semetism.
Sure I believe that they need to stop what they deem cultrally beneficial, and acceptable. I thought Jesus and other such people did such things with peace. I'm ashamed that she even calls herself a christian and looks down upon what she deems as fake christians. <sure they are fake christians, but she's not much better>

Basically what I gather from what you've said is that ignorance spread, became hatred, and then came to be attempts at genocide, cast out from society, war with about everyone else, etc because they wouldn't join suit with a forceful empire. Then they try the same thing again. I really wonder when people will try and get things to stop in a positive way.

lmao, that's really going to solve things. I personally think we should just leave the middle east alone. Sure, they have certain practices that the west deems as barbaric. However, most of those people don't so what's the harm as long as they're not influencing us? So yea, leave them alone unless some army from a middle eastern country comes over here and starts attacking the west. Ok, that's the end of my rant. Back on topic, folks.

Eh, my aunt posted something about a woman being beaten into admitting having an affair and now she's gunna get stoned to death and mom was all "THATS WHY WE NEED TO BOMB THE F-CK OUT OF THEM!!" then my dad was all "lol they have a differnt idea of getting stoned then us :p" then mom got all pissed and said that jokes solve nothing only craters will solve it.
I'd say peaceful protests would go a long way. Just cause the Jews and Muslims don't see Jesus as divine as the Christians doesn't mean they can't learn lessons from him <mainly, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone">
Now, please do not take things out of context, especially when it comes to Jesus.

And I am safe to say that the nations down there will not abandon their laws because tough punishment is not worse than what is happening in our part of the world. We need strict punishment. In fact, your mother is contradicting herself because she wants to punish Middle East for committing crimes (from her perspective) by bombing them, yet she is against strict punishment in the Middle East for what it considers to be great crimes.

Thank you, may you have a non-contradictory day today.
belle
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9/18/2010 7:08:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 1:43:29 PM, juvanya wrote:
Thus, virtually all opposition to Israel is antisemitic in origin.

or, y'know, one could be opposed to the random drawing of boundry lines on the earth without considering what groups of people those lines will displace or force together... looking at history that policy screwed almost every population we've subjected to it... coincidence? i think not....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
juvanya
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9/18/2010 7:30:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:37:20 PM, lovelife wrote:
*sigh* mom wants to nuke the middle east to end the harsh penalties and evil culture <of killing...yes killing everyone to save their lives, there's brilliance>
I cant stand people like that. Especially considering that you could spare 7.5-10 million people and achieve the results (only bomb the Arabs).

Basically what I gather from what you've said is that ignorance spread, became hatred, and then came to be attempts at genocide, cast out from society, war with about everyone else, etc because they wouldn't join suit with a forceful empire. Then they try the same thing again. I really wonder when people will try and get things to stop in a positive way.
When they stop being cumbaya hippies and recognize things for what they are: Islam is violent and oppressive. Hatred of Israel has nothing to do with its actions.

At 9/18/2010 6:49:18 PM, lovelife wrote:
Eh, my aunt posted something about a woman being beaten into admitting having an affair and now she's gunna get stoned to death and mom was all "THATS WHY WE NEED TO BOMB THE F-CK OUT OF THEM!!"
"Theyre going to kill her, so lets kill them and her." Right... Your house could use a visit from Youth and Family Services.

At 9/18/2010 7:08:14 PM, belle wrote:
or, y'know, one could be opposed to the random drawing of boundry lines on the earth without considering what groups of people those lines will displace or force together...
I dont see you complaining about a single other country in the world with "arbitrary" borders. Or exaggerating their "oppressive policies". In actuality, the lines were drawn with each area being majority Jewish and Arab respectively. The Arabs didnt like any of the plans offered and violently opposed each one. They didnt even offer any plan of their own except ALL OF IT OURS! Where was this magical democratic division of territory going to occur?

Do you support returning to the pre-1967 armistice line? That was a random drawing of lines. A green marker was used on a map; hence "Green Line".

looking at history that policy screwed almost every population we've subjected to it... coincidence? i think not....
Yes, but no one cares about the other ones. what about Kurdistan? Kashmir? Mongolia? Xinjiang? I could list dozens upon dozens of places that no one gives a sh*t about. Only Israel. And theres only one explanation. Some people hate that the Jews are no longer gonna take the beat down.
juvanya
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9/18/2010 7:30:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 6:28:43 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Four centuries is a long time, and it was a superpower at it's height.
Debateable. I honestly hadnt heard of it until I took a class on Judaism. And I am one to analyze historical maps to the letter. Now a regional power like modern Turkey, maybe..

I don't really care about the arguments of antisemites, it called itself Jewish and had a fat wad of Jewish blood in its genepool.
It actually had very little, if any. The question is whether Ashkenazi Jews are descended from them, which has been genetically disproven.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/18/2010 9:34:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 7:30:09 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 6:28:43 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Four centuries is a long time, and it was a superpower at it's height.
Debateable. I honestly hadnt heard of it until I took a class on Judaism. And I am one to analyze historical maps to the letter. Now a regional power like modern Turkey, maybe..

It's not famous now, but it was famous then. It was recognised as one of the leading powers of its day, evidence of that is overwhelming. Islam considered it more of a threat than Byzantium for a time.

I don't really care about the arguments of antisemites, it called itself Jewish and had a fat wad of Jewish blood in its genepool.
It actually had very little, if any. The question is whether Ashkenazi Jews are descended from them, which has been genetically disproven.

It does not really matter, despite what Jews think or what we think of the Jews their God has no such biological attachment. In any case each study seems to disagree with the last.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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9/19/2010 4:24:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 7:30:01 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/18/2010 7:08:14 PM, belle wrote:
or, y'know, one could be opposed to the random drawing of boundry lines on the earth without considering what groups of people those lines will displace or force together...
I dont see you complaining about a single other country in the world with "arbitrary" borders. Or exaggerating their "oppressive policies".

thats because this thread is about israel :P

and i haven't complained about any "oppressive policies". so come down off your cross already. lol.


Do you support returning to the pre-1967 armistice line? That was a random drawing of lines. A green marker was used on a map; hence "Green Line".

sure, most countries are random drawings of lines when you get down to it. however, what westerners did in eastern europe, the middle east, and africa is to draw lines completely oblivious to the tribes and beliefs of the people living there... forcing groups in conlifct together and causing much of the perpetual war we observe in those areas. i don't "hate" israel... i just don't see why anyone ever believed it was a good idea to displace a bunch of Palestinians to stick a country there. i would think they same thing if they were christians.

iow: while israel indeed exists and i must "deal with it" as inh's avatar says... i think it should have never been created in the first place.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Zetsubou
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9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:24:47 AM, belle wrote:

sure, most countries are random drawings of lines when you get down to it. however, what westerners did in eastern europe, the middle east, and africa is to draw lines completely oblivious to the tribes and beliefs of the people living there...
forcing groups in conlifct together and causing much of the perpetual war we observe in those areas.
Give me examples.
i don't "hate" israel... i just don't see why anyone ever believed it was a good idea to displace a bunch of Palestinians to stick a country there. i would think they same thing if they were christians.
i) They were never displaced, they had their lands, but the Palestinian and there Muslim allies couldn't accept that.
ii) Israel before the 7 hours before the war of independence was a state formed by areas with a Jewish minority, review the map of Isreal in 1948 vs 1949. The Israeli state was fair and legitimate to UN law.

However, after the defensive war for independence Israel annexed the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and Gaza, Arab, or better, Muslim areas. Sad, but deal with it .(INH)

So Israel should have be created, it just annexed to much land in it's first half decade.

iow: while israel indeed exists and i must "deal with it" as inh's avatar says... i think it should have never been created in the first place.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
belle
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9/19/2010 4:53:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Give me examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

how many of those are civil wars? exactly...

also see constant civil war in iraq, the various genocides in the 20th century in eastern europe, etc....

i) They were never displaced, they had their lands, but the Palestinian and there Muslim allies couldn't accept that.

the land destined to become israel was entirely unoccupied before the israelis moved in? reeeeeeally?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Zetsubou
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9/19/2010 5:21:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:53:27 AM, belle wrote:
At 9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Give me examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

how many of those are civil wars? exactly...

also see constant civil war in iraq, the various genocides in the 20th century in eastern europe, etc....
I'm not going through it all, but I can assure you, 80% are religious and irrelevant to topic, give me at least 5.

1)The current war is sunni vs Sh'ai, not ethic, Iraq fits nice and clearly in the Middle East.
2) East Europe... The boundaries there are all good, unless you mean the Balkans or Yugoslavia... to be honest, the Yugoslavian case is an exception caused by national narcissism because every ethnic group there thinks it's da sh1t. Yugoslavia, basically means southern Slavs, slavonic groups who's language is near identical. The Northern Slavs are Polish, and Eastern Slavs are Bulgarian. Yugoslavia in size and population wasn't much greater than it's neighbors, the only difference was the pride in the Post Hapsburg state. My Bosnian friend speaks, Croat, Macedonian, Bosnian and Serbian. For most of History the states where principalities of other states, the Hapsburg's, Ostro-Hungarian empire, Huns, OstroGoths ect. Yugoslavia was indeed a Versailles state (WWI byproduct), but the Slavs have lived in federal states for almost 1200 years. There differences are no ones fault but themselves, when one Serbian decides to wipe out the race of people who have been his brothers for millennia resulting in NATO blow his state up, don't say it's the fault of boundary makers.


i) They were never displaced, they had their lands, but the Palestinian and there Muslim allies couldn't accept that.

the land destined to become israel was entirely unoccupied before the israelis moved in? reeeeeeally?
Well many came back, but they had fled under a century ago, most the starter states where mainly Semitic. I have a link to records of immigration to Israel after the war but I can't be asked to find it now.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
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9/19/2010 5:23:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:21:43 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/19/2010 4:53:27 AM, belle wrote:
At 9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Give me examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

how many of those are civil wars? exactly...

also see constant civil war in iraq, the various genocides in the 20th century in eastern europe, etc....
I'm not going through it all, but I can assure you, 80% are religious and irrelevant to topic, give me at least 5.

1)The current war is sunni vs Sh'ai, not ethic, Iraq fits nice and clearly in the Middle East.
2) East Europe... The boundaries there are all good, unless you mean the Balkans or Yugoslavia... to be honest, the Yugoslavian case is an exception caused by national narcissism because every ethnic group there thinks it's da sh1t. Yugoslavia, basically means southern Slavs, slavonic groups who's language is near identical. The Northern Slavs are Polish, and Eastern Slavs are Bulgarian. Yugoslavia in size and population wasn't much greater than it's neighbors, the only difference was the pride in the Post Hapsburg state. My Bosnian friend speaks, Croat, Macedonian, Bosnian and Serbian. For most of History the states where principalities of other states, the Hapsburg's, Ostro-Hungarian empire, Huns, OstroGoths ect. Yugoslavia was indeed a Versailles state (WWI byproduct), but the Slavs have lived in federal states for almost 1200 years. There differences are no ones fault but themselves, when one Serbian decides to wipe out the race of people who have been his brothers for millennia resulting in NATO blow his state up, don't say it's the fault of boundary makers.


i) They were never displaced, they had their lands, but the Palestinian and there Muslim allies couldn't accept that.

the land destined to become israel was entirely unoccupied before the israelis moved in? reeeeeeally?
Well many came back, but they had fled under a century ago, most the starter states where mainly Semitic. I have a link to records of immigration to Israel after the war but I can't be asked to find it now.

Mistakes here and there, but you can read it.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2010 7:10:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM, Zetsubou wrote:

ii) Israel before the 7 hours before the war of independence was a state formed by areas with a Jewish minority, review the map of Isreal in 1948 vs 1949. The Israeli state was fair and legitimate to UN law.


Haha, no it really was not.

However, after the defensive war for independence Israel annexed the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and Gaza, Arab, or better, Muslim areas. Sad, but deal with it .(INH)

Defensive war of indepdendence? I don't even the most rabid zionist would agree with you.

And several places were not conquered until many years later actually, so your history is off.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/19/2010 11:12:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:43:16 AM, Zetsubou wrote:

i) They were never displaced, they had their lands, but the Palestinian and there Muslim allies couldn't accept that.

To be fair, there were Arabs living in the area before Israel was created so technically they were displaced. However, as Arabs there are other countries they could go to. Besides, they're not originally from the region. They moved in after the Jews were originally exiled. I'm not saying all Israel's current actions are justified as they have done some things I'm critical of, but they have mostly acted in self-defense unlike Hamas.

However, after the defensive war for independence Israel annexed the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem and Gaza, Arab, or better, Muslim areas. Sad, but deal with it .(INH)


iow: while israel indeed exists and i must "deal with it" as inh's avatar says... i think it should have never been created in the first place.

I'm glad to see my avatar is being quoted so much. ;) lol
juvanya
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9/19/2010 3:22:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 9:34:38 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It's not famous now, but it was famous then. It was recognised as one of the leading powers of its day, evidence of that is overwhelming.
Actually it was more of a nomadic tribe kingdom.. I think your exaggerating their role quite a bit. Ill have to ask my Central Asia prof tomorrow about their role.

Islam considered it more of a threat than Byzantium for a time.
Doesnt seem like that at all. Especially considering the Arabs defeated it several times.

It does not really matter, despite what Jews think or what we think of the Jews their God has no such biological attachment.
If half the Jews in Israel have no biological connection to the land, it weakens the claim in the PR war.

In any case each study seems to disagree with the last.
Nope.

At 9/19/2010 4:24:47 AM, belle wrote:
and i haven't complained about any "oppressive policies". so come down off your cross already. lol.
The logical extrapolation from what you said is that you discuss those.

i don't "hate" israel... i just don't see why anyone ever believed it was a good idea to displace a bunch of Palestinians to stick a country there. i would think they same thing if they were christians.
They werent displaced by anything. well...They were displaced by their pan-arabist empire plans.

iow: while israel indeed exists and i must "deal with it" as inh's avatar says... i think it should have never been created in the first place.
Why not? Should we have another Holocaust? Israel wasnt really created by the masters of the world. The partition never went into force. In fact, it was 6 months later that Israel just declared independence from Britain.

At 9/19/2010 4:53:27 AM, belle wrote:
the land destined to become israel was entirely unoccupied before the israelis moved in? reeeeeeally?
No one has ever said that. There were approximately 500-600 thousand people there in 1920-1940. Before that, probably less. And half of those probably werent even permanent residents. The point is that it was largely unoccupied and had plenty of open or unused land. Jews had always lived there. Jews had always been moving back. Jews began moving back more. They just moved there and wanted to live with whoever was there. The people there wanted an ethnically pure Arab empire (perhaps with Jewish subservience, if at all.

At 9/19/2010 5:21:43 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
2) East Europe... The boundaries there are all good, unless you mean the Balkans or Yugoslavia... to be honest, the Yugoslavian case is an exception caused by national narcissism because every ethnic group there thinks it's da sh1t. Yugoslavia, basically means southern Slavs, slavonic groups who's language is near identical. The Northern Slavs are Polish, and Eastern Slavs are Bulgarian. Yugoslavia in size and population wasn't much greater than it's neighbors, the only difference was the pride in the Post Hapsburg state. My Bosnian friend speaks, Croat, Macedonian, Bosnian and Serbian. For most of History the states where principalities of other states, the Hapsburg's, Ostro-Hungarian empire, Huns, OstroGoths ect. Yugoslavia was indeed a Versailles state (WWI byproduct), but the Slavs have lived in federal states for almost 1200 years. There differences are no ones fault but themselves, when one Serbian decides to wipe out the race of people who have been his brothers for millennia resulting in NATO blow his state up, don't say it's the fault of boundary makers.
Yugoslavs are almost all the same people. They just had no Cavour or Bismark to smooth out the differences. Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian have few differences linguistically and a national Yugoslav language could and should have been made.

At 9/19/2010 7:10:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Haha, no it really was not.
Sure it was. The UN divided it. Thats perfectly legitimate. The Arabs rejected it and it was never implemented. Fighting broke out for 6 months, the British threw their hands up and said they were leaving. The day before the mandate went into anarchy, Israel declared independence in the sectors granted to it by the UN (the only basis of legitimacy). The Arabs rioted and the Arab countries invaded. And the rest is history...

Defensive war of indepdendence? I don't even the most rabid zionist would agree with you.
Heres one that does. Who invaded who again?

And several places were not conquered until many years later actually, so your history is off.
Hes mushing stuff together but that doesnt really matter n the broad argument.

At 9/19/2010 11:12:59 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
To be fair, there were Arabs living in the area before Israel was created so technically they were displaced.
Living &#8800; displacement. Do you know what displacement is? Its when people are forced out of an area or leave it because of a conflict. The creation of Israel did not displace anyone. The Arab aggression did. No aggression, no displacement, no conflict, no problem.

I'm not saying all Israel's current actions are justified as they have done some things I'm critical of, but they have mostly acted in self-defense unlike Hamas.
Im still curious about what things you think Israel as done wrong.