Total Posts:64|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Old Testament is very likely from God

Teaparty1
Posts: 9
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.
bulproof
Posts: 25,273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 4:29:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

That's funny.
That is all.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 6:13:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Your argument leaves a lot to be desired from what I can understand of it. First off, why should the Bible be accepted as an authoritative source? I mean the only reason you give authority to the Bible is because the Bible claims to be the word of God. Secondly, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is a claim in the Bible ...and? This claim is 'accepted as true' - Is it? What makes you think so? It is not very clear how you justify these assertions. Finally, even if I did accept the possibility of 3 million people (how did you arrive at that number?) received the Torah from god, you would not be advocating specifically for Christianity (I assume you're Christian since you call the text in question "The Old Testament"). So, your argument would not be for a specific Abrahamic religion. Did you mean to advocate Islam and Judaism along with Christianity?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 6:17:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Not one of these 3 million copies survived?
dee-em
Posts: 6,477
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:12:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

In what form was the Torah delivered by God to these alleged 3 million Jews? (Nice assertion by the way). Do you have any idea what literacy rates were like then? In some towns there was only one person capable of reading the written word. The overall literacy rate would have been no more than 1-2% at the very best. Care to revise your argument?
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 10:31:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Old testament was very likely from Constantine. It was forced onto European countries by military action and violence.
bulproof
Posts: 25,273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 12:04:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 10:31:18 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The Old testament was very likely from Constantine. It was forced onto European countries by military action and violence.

So you've never heard of the Torah.
Wow!
I wonder why nobody reads your crap.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Teaparty1
Posts: 9
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 5:33:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 6:13:55 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Your argument leaves a lot to be desired from what I can understand of it. First off, why should the Bible be accepted as an authoritative source? I mean the only reason you give authority to the Bible is because the Bible claims to be the word of God. Secondly, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is a claim in the Bible ...and? This claim is 'accepted as true' - Is it? What makes you think so? It is not very clear how you justify these assertions. Finally, even if I did accept the possibility of 3 million people (how did you arrive at that number?) received the Torah from god, you would not be advocating specifically for Christianity (I assume you're Christian since you call the text in question "The Old Testament"). So, your argument would not be for a specific Abrahamic religion. Did you mean to advocate Islam and Judaism along with Christianity?

First of all, this is not my argument as in something I came up with. This is one that I heard and was unable to think of a way to disprove it. So I'm sharing it on here, in a way even hoping that someone can disprove it.

Now to your points.

1 If the bible is the word of God , then it is authoritative. There is no use in otherwise showing that the bible is authoritative, because my goal here is to show that it is from God ( and couldn't have been made up)

2 The point I'm trying to make is the following: There is a claim in the bible that 3 million people experienced a prophecy and received the Torah (Old Testament.) If you look at a bible today, they all say that. The ones in the U.S., in S. Africa, everywhere they are all the same. Jews worldwide all have the same bible, passed on to them. How could this claim of a national prophecy involving 3 million people ever have been fabricated and then accepted and passed down, if it was false?

I'm looking for a possible scenario in which a preposterous claim like the one in the bible could have been fabricated, and then subsequently ended being passed on as truth to millions of Jews today.

If it is a lie, and no such revelation ever took place, at some time in the past someone must have made such a claim. It could have happened two ways: The person making the claim either told his followers (a) that the national prophecy happened in the present " "You personally heard God speak" " or (b) that the national prophecy happened in the past -"Your ancestors once heard God speak."

As to the first possible scenario: "People would probably know if they had heard God speak; and if they hadn"t heard God speak, they might be a little hesitant to accept the Torah"s validity. Because people won"t accept foolish (checkable) lies that demand self-destructive behavior, even critics who posit that the Torah is a fictional, man-made document reject [this scenario]"

3 I'm not 'advocating' any specific religion, but I am using this argument to support Judaism's validity.

Agree so far?
Teaparty1
Posts: 9
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 5:35:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 6:17:39 AM, desmac wrote:

Not one of these 3 million copies survived?

It was 3 million people. As to copies of the "Torah" (Old testament), they have survived and are easily available today, all of them with identical scripts.
Teaparty1
Posts: 9
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 5:51:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:12:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

In what form was the Torah delivered by God to these alleged 3 million Jews? (Nice assertion by the way). Do you have any idea what literacy rates were like then? In some towns there was only one person capable of reading the written word. The overall literacy rate would have been no more than 1-2% at the very best. Care to revise your argument?

It was delivered verbally from God and Moses.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 5:54:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 5:51:16 PM, Teaparty1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:12:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

In what form was the Torah delivered by God to these alleged 3 million Jews? (Nice assertion by the way). Do you have any idea what literacy rates were like then? In some towns there was only one person capable of reading the written word. The overall literacy rate would have been no more than 1-2% at the very best. Care to revise your argument?

It was delivered verbally from God and Moses.

One man told 3 million people? Really? He recited the entire Torah? To three million people? Good grief, that's ridiculous.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 6:04:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 5:35:29 PM, Teaparty1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:17:39 AM, desmac wrote:

Not one of these 3 million copies survived?

It was 3 million people. As to copies of the "Torah" (Old testament), they have survived and are easily available today, all of them with identical scripts.

So where is one of the "originals"?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 7:05:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 5:33:36 PM, Teaparty1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:13:55 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Your argument leaves a lot to be desired from what I can understand of it. First off, why should the Bible be accepted as an authoritative source? I mean the only reason you give authority to the Bible is because the Bible claims to be the word of God. Secondly, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is a claim in the Bible ...and? This claim is 'accepted as true' - Is it? What makes you think so? It is not very clear how you justify these assertions. Finally, even if I did accept the possibility of 3 million people (how did you arrive at that number?) received the Torah from god, you would not be advocating specifically for Christianity (I assume you're Christian since you call the text in question "The Old Testament"). So, your argument would not be for a specific Abrahamic religion. Did you mean to advocate Islam and Judaism along with Christianity?

First of all, this is not my argument as in something I came up with. This is one that I heard and was unable to think of a way to disprove it. So I'm sharing it on here, in a way even hoping that someone can disprove it.

Now to your points.

1 If the bible is the word of God , then it is authoritative. There is no use in otherwise showing that the bible is authoritative, because my goal here is to show that it is from God ( and couldn't have been made up)

It appears to me that you're relying on the Bible to be a claim and evidence. Would you accept someone stating Britannica claims X and since it is Britannica that claims it, it is true? How is your strategy different?

2 The point I'm trying to make is the following: There is a claim in the bible that 3 million people experienced a prophecy and received the Torah (Old Testament.) If you look at a bible today, they all say that. The ones in the U.S., in S. Africa, everywhere they are all the same. Jews worldwide all have the same bible, passed on to them. How could this claim of a national prophecy involving 3 million people ever have been fabricated and then accepted and passed down, if it was false?

Jews don't have a "Bible". Christians have the Bible, and it is easy to establish modern Biblical translations are not identical. Not to mention, there are many variations between modern Bibles and the texts from which they came. You've completely lost me.


I'm looking for a possible scenario in which a preposterous claim like the one in the bible could have been fabricated, and then subsequently ended being passed on as truth to millions of Jews today.

If it is a lie, and no such revelation ever took place, at some time in the past someone must have made such a claim. It could have happened two ways: The person making the claim either told his followers (a) that the national prophecy happened in the present " "You personally heard God speak" " or (b) that the national prophecy happened in the past -"Your ancestors once heard God speak."

As to the first possible scenario: "People would probably know if they had heard God speak; and if they hadn"t heard God speak, they might be a little hesitant to accept the Torah"s validity. Because people won"t accept foolish (checkable) lies that demand self-destructive behavior, even critics who posit that the Torah is a fictional, man-made document reject [this scenario]"

Sure, but the second option is much more likely to be accepted since it is unlikely believers can know what 'revelations' their ancestors had (if any). Assuming someone accepts such a claim, it doesn't make it true, though.

3 I'm not 'advocating' any specific religion, but I am using this argument to support Judaism's validity.

Agree so far?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dee-em
Posts: 6,477
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 10:54:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 5:51:16 PM, Teaparty1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:12:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

In what form was the Torah delivered by God to these alleged 3 million Jews? (Nice assertion by the way). Do you have any idea what literacy rates were like then? In some towns there was only one person capable of reading the written word. The overall literacy rate would have been no more than 1-2% at the very best. Care to revise your argument?

It was delivered verbally from God and Moses.

Ha ha ha ha.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 12:34:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God.
Mythologies world-wide reinvent the history of their own peoples, and religions worldwide tell revisionist histories about their origins, heroes and dogma. Do you want to consider all such claims objectively true?

No?

Then do you mean to disprove the myths of every other culture and faith before asking others to disprove this particular Jewish myth?

No?

Then asking others to disprove a particular myth while ignoring the peculiarities of every other religious and cultural myth is the application of subjective bias. You cannot use this argument to mount a case for objective truth.

You could however, seek to mount a case by showing independent and reputable corroborative evidence that countless Israelites all marvellously received a bound Torah on their doorsteps and tent-floors on the same day, while also reconciling how the Torah they received had, according to source criticism -- a discipline three centuries old and widely accepted among Biblical scholars -- four distinct authors and redactors. [https://en.wikipedia.org...]
dee-em
Posts: 6,477
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 2:41:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 12:34:35 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

You could however, seek to mount a case by showing independent and reputable corroborative evidence that countless Israelites all marvellously received a bound Torah on their doorsteps and tent-floors on the same day, while also reconciling how the Torah they received had, according to source criticism -- a discipline three centuries old and widely accepted among Biblical scholars -- four distinct authors and redactors. [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

Bound books didn't exist then, Ruv. It would have required a miracle on a miracle, unless it is possible to bind parchment scrolls. It would have required a lot of dead animals, at least 3 million of them given the length of the text. The whole idea is absurd, of course.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 2:48:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 2:41:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:34:35 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

You could however, seek to mount a case by showing independent and reputable corroborative evidence that countless Israelites all marvellously received a bound Torah on their doorsteps and tent-floors on the same day, while also reconciling how the Torah they received had, according to source criticism -- a discipline three centuries old and widely accepted among Biblical scholars -- four distinct authors and redactors. [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

Bound books didn't exist then, Ruv. It would have required a miracle on a miracle, unless it is possible to bind parchment scrolls. It would have required a lot of dead animals, at least 3 million of them given the length of the text. The whole idea is absurd, of course.

Individually autographed, hand-stitched, illuminated vellum, Dee-Em, on scented Cordovan leather (even though there was no Cordoba), or I'm not buying it. :D
ken1122
Posts: 484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 4:25:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false?

Which scripture in the Bible makes this claim?

Ken
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 9:01:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.

Moses is a fiction as was the enslavement of the Hebrew people. There is not one fact that supports any of Exodous, not to mention all of the miracles he supposedly did. Try again.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 9:52:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 9:01:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.

Moses is a fiction as was the enslavement of the Hebrew people. There is not one fact that supports any of Exodous, not to mention all of the miracles he supposedly did. Try again.

He also didn't write the Pentateuch. :)

Partly because, not existing, he had trouble holding a pen. Partly because had he done so, he'd have also had good reason to write: "I, Moses, pen all these books from first-hand memory and divine revelation, and none of you sneaky Israelite priests who succeed me should later edit or alter them in any way", and he never did. And partly because he wasn't happy referring to himself in the third person, and wasn't sure how to record events after his death in the life he never had.
SavvoyBrown
Posts: 11
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 4:32:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

If it just takes people passing along a text for it to be true, then the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc. are also true?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 6:51:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 4:32:31 AM, SavvoyBrown wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

If it just takes people passing along a text for it to be true, then the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc. are also true?

They are possibly true in the heads of the novelists who created them.
bulproof
Posts: 25,273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 9:20:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Yeah, apparently the god what wrote it didn't know sh*t from apricot jam.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 2:43:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 9:01:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.

Moses is a fiction as was the enslavement of the Hebrew people. There is not one fact that supports any of Exodus, not to mention all of the miracles he supposedly did. Try again.

There are enough facts to keep some historians on side, lol.

You have just chosen to run with the "anti" crowd,. That's your problem, not mine. Scripture does not lie.

The Bible is also scientifically accurate enough to keep a small but growing band of scientists on side.

Ignore those facts at your peril.

I shall continue to preach the truth no matter how much you deny it.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 2:49:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 5:51:16 PM, Teaparty1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:12:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

In what form was the Torah delivered by God to these alleged 3 million Jews? (Nice assertion by the way). Do you have any idea what literacy rates were like then? In some towns there was only one person capable of reading the written word. The overall literacy rate would have been no more than 1-2% at the very best. Care to revise your argument?

It was delivered verbally from God and Moses.

Yeh right, and your verifiable evidence for that is?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 2:58:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 2:43:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 9:01:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.

Moses is a fiction as was the enslavement of the Hebrew people. There is not one fact that supports any of Exodus, not to mention all of the miracles he supposedly did. Try again.

There are enough facts to keep some historians on side, lol.

You have just chosen to run with the "anti" crowd,. That's your problem, not mine. Scripture does not lie.

The Bible is also scientifically accurate enough to keep a small but growing band of scientists on side.

Ignore those facts at your peril.

I shall continue to preach the truth no matter how much you deny it.

And I shall continue to laugh at your nonsensical proclamations of biblical infallibility in the face of so many facts that prove it is just the opposite. Enjoy your delusion.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/14/2015 5:11:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 2:58:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/14/2015 2:43:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 9:01:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 8:34:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2015 7:27:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/13/2015 6:30:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/12/2015 4:04:09 AM, Teaparty1 wrote:
This is specifically meant for atheists/agnostics, but I'd appreciate input from anyone. I have heard a strong argument as to why the Old Testament has to be from God and thus has to be true. It is very simple and straightforward. It is as follows: In the Bible there is a claim every Jewish man, woman, and child received the Torah from God. This totals to about 3 million people. How could a claim like that have been passed down and be accepted if it is false? Included in this extended argument, there are answers to many possible situations that someone might suggest, which I will expand upon and show very unlikely, if not impossible, if those explanations come up.

Genesis 1 is absolute proof of the divine origin of scripture.

Genesis 1 is the primitive way a bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder decided to explain the existence of a world and a universe he actually knew next to nothing about. It's proof that someone was quite creative if absolutely wrong about almost everything. If you say it's proof, let me ask you this. Who was there to write it down?

And yet if you read it correctly, ignoring the obvious mistranslation of v14, what little detail it gives fits in precisely with what we now know to be true.

No-one needed to be there to write it down at the time, only when it was Jehovah's time for us to now.

All I can say is that your "bronze age, illiterate, semi-nomadic herder" obviously new much more than you do.

Incidentally Moses was highly educated as a prince of Egypt should be.

Moses is a fiction as was the enslavement of the Hebrew people. There is not one fact that supports any of Exodus, not to mention all of the miracles he supposedly did. Try again.

There are enough facts to keep some historians on side, lol.

You have just chosen to run with the "anti" crowd,. That's your problem, not mine. Scripture does not lie.

The Bible is also scientifically accurate enough to keep a small but growing band of scientists on side.

Ignore those facts at your peril.

I shall continue to preach the truth no matter how much you deny it.

And I shall continue to laugh at your nonsensical proclamations of biblical infallibility in the face of so many facts that prove it is just the opposite. Enjoy your delusion.

But will you still be laughing when you find out that the Bible is right?

Because you will, one day.