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Is the Old Testament Binding?

Cody_Franklin
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9/19/2010 1:01:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I know that one of the primary criticisms levied against modern Christianity is that it is hypocritical for disregarding the crudeness of the old testament; however, I was doing a bit of research (to find evidence to use in an ongoing dialogue with a religious friend of mine), and I found a couple of things which seem to support the Christian argument concerning the contemporary inapplicability of Old Testament Law.

Starting at Galatians 3:23:

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

In fact, that middle verse, 3:24 ("So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.") seems to suggest that the law was purposely made to be so rigorous that humanity, realizing its imperfection (in its inability to conform to the Law), would realize that it needed to have faith in Christ to achieve salvation.

Also, Romans 10:4:

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

Matthew 22:37-40

"Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Though I'm obviously not a Christian by any stretch of the imagination, I do find things like this to be vastly interesting. What do you all suppose that verses, such as these, do for the Christian argument that the Old Testament really is inapplicable?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 1:10:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that God was a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't care if there's a new covenant or not, the laws that were commanded by God were atrocious. What happened, did God's objective morality CHANGE to a more gentle morality? Did Jesus have to correct his mean old daddy and teach him the true moral ways?

Seriously, wtf.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 1:13:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:11:39 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's also some New Testament verses saying that Jesus didn't come to change the laws.

Yes.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cody_Franklin
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9/19/2010 1:15:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:13:48 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:11:39 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's also some New Testament verses saying that Jesus didn't come to change the laws.

Yes.


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20)

The Law here doesn't necessarily mean the Old Testament Law. The other verse I cited from Matthew actually seems to suggest that the Law, now, is those two primary commandments: love God, love your neighbor as thyself.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 1:18:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:15:47 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:13:48 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:11:39 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's also some New Testament verses saying that Jesus didn't come to change the laws.

Yes.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20)

The Law here doesn't necessarily mean the Old Testament Law.

It says "Law or the Prophets." The Prophets were from the OT (they had to be). That's a clear indicator that it's OT Law.

The other verse I cited from Matthew actually seems to suggest that the Law, now, is those two primary commandments: love God, love your neighbor as thyself.

Refer to my first argument.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/19/2010 1:21:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:10:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that God was a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't care if there's a new covenant or not, the laws that were commanded by God were atrocious. What happened, did God's objective morality CHANGE to a more gentle morality? Did Jesus have to correct his mean old daddy and teach him the true moral ways?

Seriously, wtf.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Question, though: without reference to what Christians would say is a human-generated moral code, why are homophobia, misogyny, etc. immoral? Additionally, if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations? You can call his actions unjust, omnicidal, and tyrannical, but, really, you're just finding fancy ways to say that you don't like them.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/19/2010 1:24:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Geo, I believe what its saying is that you don't get stoned to death for cheating, might be cast out of the church and/or divorced, but you live life on earth, then when you die, God's law will send to punishment.

Judge not lest ye be judged- Matt. 7:1
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/19/2010 1:25:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:21:18 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:10:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that God was a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't care if there's a new covenant or not, the laws that were commanded by God were atrocious. What happened, did God's objective morality CHANGE to a more gentle morality? Did Jesus have to correct his mean old daddy and teach him the true moral ways?

Seriously, wtf.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Question, though: without reference to what Christians would say is a human-generated moral code, why are homophobia, misogyny, etc. immoral? Additionally, if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations? You can call his actions unjust, omnicidal, and tyrannical, but, really, you're just finding fancy ways to say that you don't like them.

He's not all loving if he's cruel.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:21:18 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:10:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that God was a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't care if there's a new covenant or not, the laws that were commanded by God were atrocious. What happened, did God's objective morality CHANGE to a more gentle morality? Did Jesus have to correct his mean old daddy and teach him the true moral ways?

Seriously, wtf.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Question, though: without reference to what Christians would say is a human-generated moral code, why are homophobia, misogyny, etc. immoral? ...You can call his actions unjust, omnicidal, and tyrannical, but, really, you're just finding fancy ways to say that you don't like them.

Sure, Dawkins never argues why genocide is immoral, just that God happens to be genocidal. He can leave that question to the Christians to decide if they believe genocide is immoral and they will probably have to go with their innate sense of good judgment and concede that genocide is indeed immoral.

There is really no need to convince people why genocide is immoral, simply pointing out that God commits genocide is enough to effectively convict him.

Additionally, if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations?

No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 1:29:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:24:12 AM, lovelife wrote:
Geo, I believe what its saying is that you don't get stoned to death for cheating, might be cast out of the church and/or divorced, but you live life on earth, then when you die, God's law will send to punishment.

Judge not lest ye be judged- Matt. 7:1

Uhh, I have no idea what your argument is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/19/2010 1:30:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

: No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?
To heavy-duty Bible followers?
Yes.
I miss the old members.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/19/2010 1:31:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:29:06 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:24:12 AM, lovelife wrote:
Geo, I believe what its saying is that you don't get stoned to death for cheating, might be cast out of the church and/or divorced, but you live life on earth, then when you die, God's law will send to punishment.

Judge not lest ye be judged- Matt. 7:1

Uhh, I have no idea what your argument is.

You said that Jesus did not abolish the law. He could have abolished making it law of land, but wanted to be clear it was law of the spirit.
He clearly told others not to judge, that he who is without sin cast the first stone, and things of a nature that show me he is against humans cauing pre-mature human death, thus having it be the law of the land needed to end.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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9/19/2010 1:32:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:30:56 AM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

: No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?
To heavy-duty Bible followers?
Yes.

No, they believe they have the right to throw rocks at them for talking back and being disrespectful. Nowhere in the bible does it say they have the right to shoot children.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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9/19/2010 2:09:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?

No, they have the obligation to shoot you in the face under the right circumstances. According to the Bible.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 2:14:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 2:09:00 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?

No, they have the obligation to shoot you in the face under the right circumstances. According to the Bible.

That wasn't Cody's argument, which is what I was responding to. He said "if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations?"

I countered, that being the creator of something doesn't give you warrant to do as you please with it, as shown by my example of a child and his parents.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/19/2010 2:17:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 2:14:19 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 2:09:00 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?

No, they have the obligation to shoot you in the face under the right circumstances. According to the Bible.

That wasn't Cody's argument, which is what I was responding to. He said "if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations?"

I countered, that being the creator of something doesn't give you warrant to do as you please with it, as shown by my example of a child and his parents.

reguardless, how about rape? Anyone defend parents raping their children?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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9/19/2010 2:34:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:11:39 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's also some New Testament verses saying that Jesus didn't come to change the laws. Contradictory much?

What Jesus said he was...

Matt 5:17 -> "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves, "he fulfilled the law" and took it out of the way nailing it to his cross, he was "made sin for us", baptized into identification with our sin, then judged in three hours of darkness on the cross,

He did this so people like you and me "sinners" just had to believe to be saved, no need to keep any commandments nothing ! just believe.

Rom 5:4 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness".
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/19/2010 2:37:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 2:34:48 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:
What Jesus said he was...

Matt 5:17 -> "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves, "he fulfilled the law" and took it out of the way nailing it to his cross, he was "made sin for us", baptized into identification with our sin, then judged in three hours of darkness on the cross,

He did this so people like you and me "sinners" just had to believe to be saved, no need to keep any commandments nothing ! just believe.

You forgot the rest of that passage you quoted:

"...I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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9/19/2010 3:27:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 2:37:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 2:34:48 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:
What Jesus said he was...

Matt 5:17 -> "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves, "he fulfilled the law" and took it out of the way nailing it to his cross, he was "made sin for us", baptized into identification with our sin, then judged in three hours of darkness on the cross,

He did this so people like you and me "sinners" just had to believe to be saved, no need to keep any commandments nothing ! just believe.

You forgot the rest of that passage you quoted:

"...I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20)

----------
I didn't forget anything !

"until everything is accomplished" it has been accomplished !

John 19:30 "...it is finished..." - Jesus

---------------------------o O--^5 --
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/19/2010 11:31:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 1:27:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:21:18 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/19/2010 1:10:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that God was a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't care if there's a new covenant or not, the laws that were commanded by God were atrocious. What happened, did God's objective morality CHANGE to a more gentle morality? Did Jesus have to correct his mean old daddy and teach him the true moral ways?

Seriously, wtf.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Question, though: without reference to what Christians would say is a human-generated moral code, why are homophobia, misogyny, etc. immoral? ...You can call his actions unjust, omnicidal, and tyrannical, but, really, you're just finding fancy ways to say that you don't like them.

Sure, Dawkins never argues why genocide is immoral, just that God happens to be genocidal. He can leave that question to the Christians to decide if they believe genocide is immoral and they will probably have to go with their innate sense of good judgment and concede that genocide is indeed immoral.

Deuteronomy 29:19

"If anyone should think to himself, 'I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart,' Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him."

This part of the Old Testament wouldn't have been erased/fulfilled by Jesus' crucifixion. Recall that one of the two commandments set forth is to Love God - part of this is to trust in his judgment, and to put no idols of any sort above him, whether that be of false gods, or of one's own moral compass.

There is really no need to convince people why genocide is immoral, simply pointing out that God commits genocide is enough to effectively convict him.

That isn't a strong case for the immorality of genocide. The argument seems to again boil down to "man dislikes it".

Additionally, if God created humanity, why shouldn't he be able to make the rules, and do as he pleases with his creations?

No. My mom and dad created me, so does that mean they have the right to shoot me in the face?

Biblically, I'm not certain. I would say that the part about stoning a disobedient child was a part of the old Law which Jesus' sacrifice fulfilled.

Suppose that God does exist. What gives us the right to disobey him?