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Atheists Last Words

johnlubba
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10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."

Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/15/2015 6:16:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:14:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:24 PM, dhardage wrote:
And this has some kind of relevance?

Go figure

I already have. You post crap then won't defend it. Not hard to figure out but I thought I'd at least assume you had a point to make and ask what it was. I was wrong.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?

So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.

Nope!
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:18:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:16:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:14:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:24 PM, dhardage wrote:
And this has some kind of relevance?

Go figure

I already have. You post crap then won't defend it. Not hard to figure out but I thought I'd at least assume you had a point to make and ask what it was. I was wrong.

As most times, I think you're wrong!
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/15/2015 6:21:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:18:22 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:16:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:14:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:24 PM, dhardage wrote:
And this has some kind of relevance?

Go figure

I already have. You post crap then won't defend it. Not hard to figure out but I thought I'd at least assume you had a point to make and ask what it was. I was wrong.

As most times, I think you're wrong!

Prove it. What was your point to this or were you just throwing junk around?
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/15/2015 6:24:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Have you ever been around someone on his/her deathbed? They get delusional. Nice dodge of the question, though. Why should I care? If a Christian on his deathbed suddenly declares that there is no god, would you care?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/15/2015 6:24:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think the intention of this thread is that these stories are somehow representative.

John doesn't want to defend that though, because he can't -- he didn't even do basic diligence on the stories he quoted.

So instead, and rather cravenly and dishonestly, he just wants to suggest that it's representative -- hence the title.

There is no point here, and no argument. It's just trolling.

And what it reflects on is not atheism, but John's inability to produce a coherent, defensible argument for theism.

Poor John. Unlike the storybook atheists with their purported deathbed conversions, John has to live with the cowardice and dishonesty that produced a thread like this for his whole life.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:25:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:21:36 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:18:22 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:16:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:14:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:24 PM, dhardage wrote:
And this has some kind of relevance?

Go figure

I already have. You post crap then won't defend it. Not hard to figure out but I thought I'd at least assume you had a point to make and ask what it was. I was wrong.

As most times, I think you're wrong!

Prove it. What was your point to this or were you just throwing junk around?

You really are like a child throwing his toys out of the pram, don't spit the dummy as well.

I am not obligated to prove anything to you and I am not obligated to hold your hand wand walk and talk you things you seem to struggle to understand, if you can't figure out why, then so be it. Obviously you are welcome to your own conclusions, but as I said, as in most cases I think you are wrong. I need not prove anything just because you demand it.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/15/2015 6:27:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:25:14 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:21:36 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:18:22 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:16:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:14:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:24 PM, dhardage wrote:
And this has some kind of relevance?

Go figure

I already have. You post crap then won't defend it. Not hard to figure out but I thought I'd at least assume you had a point to make and ask what it was. I was wrong.

As most times, I think you're wrong!

Prove it. What was your point to this or were you just throwing junk around?

You really are like a child throwing his toys out of the pram, don't spit the dummy as well.

I am not obligated to prove anything to you and I am not obligated to hold your hand wand walk and talk you things you seem to struggle to understand, if you can't figure out why, then so be it. Obviously you are welcome to your own conclusions, but as I said, as in most cases I think you are wrong. I need not prove anything just because you demand it.

Sooo, you were just posting crap. That's what I thought. It's a rather typical hit and run from a cowardly poster who knows he's just trolling with stupid, unsupported comments. Thanks for confirming that for me.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:28:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:24:18 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Have you ever been around someone on his/her deathbed? They get delusional. Nice dodge of the question, though. Why should I care? If a Christian on his deathbed suddenly declares that there is no god, would you care?

I think I would take it into account.

And yes I have seen someone on their deathbed say there was an angel in the room just before they died.

Was it a delusion, who knows but the fact it's what they claim to see, should be taken into account.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/15/2015 6:30:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:28:06 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:24:18 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Have you ever been around someone on his/her deathbed? They get delusional. Nice dodge of the question, though. Why should I care? If a Christian on his deathbed suddenly declares that there is no god, would you care?


I think I would take it into account.

And yes I have seen someone on their deathbed say there was an angel in the room just before they died.

Was it a delusion, who knows but the fact it's what they claim to see, should be taken into account.

Take it into account in what way? If you or I aren't swayed by someone whose brain is supposedly functioning normally, why should we consider the final words of someone whose brain is in critical shutdown mode?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,663
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10/15/2015 6:31:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Just to say, I have personally listened the words of the dying, many times. The mind does not operate with clarity during such times of great distress.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:33:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:24:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
I think the intention of this thread is that these stories are somehow representative.

John doesn't want to defend that though, because he can't -- he didn't even do basic diligence on the stories he quoted.

So instead, and rather cravenly and dishonestly, he just wants to suggest that it's representative -- hence the title.

There is no point here, and no argument. It's just trolling.

And what it reflects on is not atheism, but John's inability to produce a coherent, defensible argument for theism.

Poor John. Unlike the storybook atheists with their purported deathbed conversions, John has to live with the cowardice and dishonesty that produced a thread like this for his whole life.

Can I have some of what you're smoking.
Did I hit a nerve?

The thread is to show how an atheist can doubt at the very final moments of death the very things he stood for through his life, which is going from unbeliever to having a strong conviction that he lived a lie.

I resent your comments that I am trolling and the distasteful sarcasm you sneer, I really thought better of you. But alas, we can all be wrong.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:36:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:31:40 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Just to say, I have personally listened the words of the dying, many times. The mind does not operate with clarity during such times of great distress.

Not in all cases, but ever heard of terminal lucidity?
Fly
Posts: 2,045
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10/15/2015 6:39:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Yes, these disturbing deathbed stories, whether true or not as the various cases may be, give fundamentalist Christians the warm fuzzies... in His mercy, of course. [sarcasm]

Deep down, they harbor doubts as to whether Christ's salvation extends to them personally-- have they prayed earnestly enough, repented effectively enough, been baptized properly, and at the proper age? They wish that unbelievers would fear Hell and God's judgment as much as they do.

Are the sacrifices one makes for Christ's Heavenly reward worth it? Deep down, fundamentalist Christians are jealous of the relative freedoms and lack of guilt that unbelievers have. To hear stories of the eternal torment these stubborn lost souls have invited upon themselves gives them that bit of encouragement to carry on for Christ.

This mentality is quite sad, really-- just read the various responses in the thread linked in the OP.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:40:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:30:38 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:28:06 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:24:18 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!. Nice dodge of the question, though. Why should I care? If a Christian on his deathbed suddenly declares that there is no god, would you care?


I think I would take it into account.

Have you ever been around someone on his/her deathbed? They get delusional

And yes I have seen someone on their deathbed say there was an angel in the room just before they died.

Was it a delusion, who knows but the fact it's what they claim to see, should be taken into account.

Take it into account in what way? If you or I aren't swayed by someone whose brain is supposedly functioning normally, why should we consider the final words of someone whose brain is in critical shutdown mode?

I think if you researched what happens to people just before they die you would be surprised, people are not just in a vegetative state at all time, sometime they portray very lucid states of consciousness just before passing, this is very well documented.

But that is besides the point of my post, other than what I have already stated, that people in their final moments have a great sense of doubt of living a life of unbelief and further resent their life's philosophy for the opposite.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:43:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:39:56 PM, Fly wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Yes, these disturbing deathbed stories, whether true or not as the various cases may be, give fundamentalist Christians the warm fuzzies... in His mercy, of course. [sarcasm]

Deep down, they harbor doubts as to whether Christ's salvation extends to them personally-- have they prayed earnestly enough, repented effectively enough, been baptized properly, and at the proper age? They wish that unbelievers would fear Hell and God's judgment as much as they do.

Are the sacrifices one makes for Christ's Heavenly reward worth it? Deep down, fundamentalist Christians are jealous of the relative freedoms and lack of guilt that unbelievers have. To hear stories of the eternal torment these stubborn lost souls have invited upon themselves gives them that bit of encouragement to carry on for Christ.

This mentality is quite sad, really-- just read the various responses in the thread linked in the OP.

Well everybody's entitled to an opinion and thankfully we are all not entitled to share them.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/15/2015 6:45:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:40:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
I think if you researched what happens to people just before they die you would be surprised, people are not just in a vegetative state at all time, sometime they portray very lucid states of consciousness just before passing, this is very well documented.

But that is besides the point of my post, other than what I have already stated, that people in their final moments have a great sense of doubt of living a life of unbelief and further resent their life's philosophy for the opposite.

I just don't see how you separate the wheat from the chaff in a situation like this. Even if I pretend to accept the two quotes you wrote in the OP as legitimate and substantive, all I get from that is the god they suddenly feared truly is the monster he's portrayed to be in the Bible. Infinite punishment for finite "crime." How despicable.
RuvDraba
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10/15/2015 6:47:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:33:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:24:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
I think the intention of this thread is that these stories are somehow representative.

John doesn't want to defend that though, because he can't -- he didn't even do basic diligence on the stories he quoted.

So instead, and rather cravenly and dishonestly, he just wants to suggest that it's representative -- hence the title.

There is no point here, and no argument. It's just trolling.

And what it reflects on is not atheism, but John's inability to produce a coherent, defensible argument for theism.

Poor John. Unlike the storybook atheists with their purported deathbed conversions, John has to live with the cowardice and dishonesty that produced a thread like this for his whole life.

The thread is to show how an atheist can doubt at the very final moments of death the very things he stood for through his life, which is going from unbeliever to having a strong conviction that he lived a lie.

I resent your comments that I am trolling and the distasteful sarcasm you sneer, I really thought better of you. But alas, we can all be wrong.

I understand from your aggression, John, that you now regret posting quotes under a misrepresentative title, and without framing them in some coherent argument.

While you haven't apologised for the laziness, conceit and intellectual dishonesty in doing so, I acknowledge your undertaking to do better in future.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:52:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:47:54 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:33:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:24:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
I think the intention of this thread is that these stories are somehow representative.

John doesn't want to defend that though, because he can't -- he didn't even do basic diligence on the stories he quoted.

So instead, and rather cravenly and dishonestly, he just wants to suggest that it's representative -- hence the title.

There is no point here, and no argument. It's just trolling.

And what it reflects on is not atheism, but John's inability to produce a coherent, defensible argument for theism.

Poor John. Unlike the storybook atheists with their purported deathbed conversions, John has to live with the cowardice and dishonesty that produced a thread like this for his whole life.

The thread is to show how an atheist can doubt at the very final moments of death the very things he stood for through his life, which is going from unbeliever to having a strong conviction that he lived a lie.

I resent your comments that I am trolling and the distasteful sarcasm you sneer, I really thought better of you. But alas, we can all be wrong.

I understand from your aggression, John, that you now regret posting quotes under a misrepresentative title, and without framing them in some coherent argument.

While you haven't apologised for the laziness, conceit and intellectual dishonesty in doing so, I acknowledge your undertaking to do better in future.

Blah Blah Blah
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/15/2015 6:54:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:52:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:47:54 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:33:48 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:24:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
I think the intention of this thread is that these stories are somehow representative.

John doesn't want to defend that though, because he can't -- he didn't even do basic diligence on the stories he quoted.

So instead, and rather cravenly and dishonestly, he just wants to suggest that it's representative -- hence the title.

There is no point here, and no argument. It's just trolling.

And what it reflects on is not atheism, but John's inability to produce a coherent, defensible argument for theism.

Poor John. Unlike the storybook atheists with their purported deathbed conversions, John has to live with the cowardice and dishonesty that produced a thread like this for his whole life.

The thread is to show how an atheist can doubt at the very final moments of death the very things he stood for through his life, which is going from unbeliever to having a strong conviction that he lived a lie.

I resent your comments that I am trolling and the distasteful sarcasm you sneer, I really thought better of you. But alas, we can all be wrong.

I understand from your aggression, John, that you now regret posting quotes under a misrepresentative title, and without framing them in some coherent argument.

While you haven't apologised for the laziness, conceit and intellectual dishonesty in doing so, I acknowledge your undertaking to do better in future.

Blah Blah Blah

Articulate, isn't he?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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10/15/2015 6:54:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:45:52 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:40:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
I think if you researched what happens to people just before they die you would be surprised, people are not just in a vegetative state at all time, sometime they portray very lucid states of consciousness just before passing, this is very well documented.

But that is besides the point of my post, other than what I have already stated, that people in their final moments have a great sense of doubt of living a life of unbelief and further resent their life's philosophy for the opposite.

I just don't see how you separate the wheat from the chaff in a situation like this. Even if I pretend to accept the two quotes you wrote in the OP as legitimate and substantive, all I get from that is the god they suddenly feared truly is the monster he's portrayed to be in the Bible. Infinite punishment for finite "crime." How despicable.

If that's your take on it, then so be it. At least you gave your honest opinion, but I honestly don't share it for reasons I stated.

Now my shift is over, back Sunday.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/15/2015 6:58:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Pointless thread.

Anecdotal examples from which nothing meaningful can be derived except the OP's peculiar notion of what constitutes evidence. Why should I care what 1, 10, 1000 people said on their deathbeds?

This is especially true when I'd be able to direct you to what 2, 20, 2000 other people said on their deathbeds to the contrary.

It's no wonder the OP is unwilling to stand by the case. It's handful of nothing, whilst, on the other hand, being a rather ironical admission as to what a significant portion of theists regard as sufficient reason to believe: because someone in authority - be it the Pope, your local born again Pastor or a mullah - said so. Hate to break it to you but that's not how rationalists come to their conclusions.

Is it just me or the level of apologetics is on the sharp decline as of late?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/15/2015 6:58:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:54:33 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:45:52 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:40:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
I think if you researched what happens to people just before they die you would be surprised, people are not just in a vegetative state at all time, sometime they portray very lucid states of consciousness just before passing, this is very well documented.

But that is besides the point of my post, other than what I have already stated, that people in their final moments have a great sense of doubt of living a life of unbelief and further resent their life's philosophy for the opposite.

I just don't see how you separate the wheat from the chaff in a situation like this. Even if I pretend to accept the two quotes you wrote in the OP as legitimate and substantive, all I get from that is the god they suddenly feared truly is the monster he's portrayed to be in the Bible. Infinite punishment for finite "crime." How despicable.

If that's your take on it, then so be it. At least you gave your honest opinion, but I honestly don't share it for reasons I stated.

Now my shift is over, back Sunday.

Rest well, John. Enjoy your break.
beng100
Posts: 1,055
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10/15/2015 7:01:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Its interesting though that not all atheists change their mind at death. You have just quoted two individuals. It is fair to say many people nearing death are not functioning in a normal manner mentally. Death is equally scary for theists and atheists. Theists worry about hell. Atheists worry about the end of their existence.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,663
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10/15/2015 7:03:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/15/2015 6:36:29 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:31:40 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:17:35 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 10/15/2015 6:02:56 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 10/15/2015 5:34:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Sir Walter Scott the skeptic said: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."


Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! "Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!"

http://www.landoverbaptist.net...

Like the guy says, there's no source for the list. Granting, for the sake of argument, that these quotes are legitimate, though, why should I care about the delusions of folks who are on their deathbed?


So automatically you consider their final words as delusional, How convenient.
It has nothing to do with a grave change of heart they had when faced with the final curtain.


Nope!

Just to say, I have personally listened the words of the dying, many times. The mind does not operate with clarity during such times of great distress.

Not in all cases, but ever heard of terminal lucidity?

Yep. I've witness this phenomena (also "the Rally", "Burst of Energy") more than a few times. I've witness these people, for a brief time, restored to some degree of conscious ability and memory, but little is known about this and it doesn't mean they are actually in a totally rational state of mind. And how can we tell that any of those quoted people were experiencing this?

A quote from one of the few bits of info I found on this:
"Several of these accounts suggest that during terminal lucidity, memory and cognitive abilities may function by neurologic processes different from those of the normal brain."
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...)