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Atheist shame?

tvellalott
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9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have to make a confession.

I am NOT a passionately outspoken Atheist.
If someone asks me about beliefs, or the topic of Religion comes up at a party or something, I am more than happy to speak about how I feel on the subject. My friends know how I feel about it. My family definately know how I feel about it. My ex-partner, although she was a Catholic, know and accepted it. If someone comes to the door and wants to tell me about God, I'll tell THEM how I feel about it.
I don't hide the fact I'm an Atheist, but I certainly don't protest outside of churchs or anything.

The truth of the matter is, I still feel like telling a Theist that their God is a fairy tale without provocation is rude. I consider THEM telling me about their sky wizard rude as well, but I honestly think it works both ways. I don't agree with what you believe, but as long as it doesn't cause anyone harm, I'll fight for your right to believe it and all that.

Take for example, my grandmother. Her husband of 40 years (not my biological grandfather, but a grandfather none-the-less) died recently. She is a Catholic. She goes to church and all that jazz.
How can I go and tell her that she is wrong. "Ol' gramps isn't in Heaven Nan. When his brain stopped functioning, he became worm food and nothing more." I can't. It would be heartless. As she herself gets closer to death, the 'knowledge' that she has been a good person and she will go to Heaven brings her comfort.
Who am I to put doubt in that comfort?

I'm all for telling some crazy women on the street that she ain't got no pancake mix, but I would never do that myself.

So while I consider myself both an Athiest and to come extend an Anti-theist, I am not a radical or anything.

Now, I want your opinions :P
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annhasle
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9/19/2010 5:58:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm an outspoken Atheist. And it probably ended up that way since my entire family is Roman Catholic and pushed religion on me since I was about one. Am I intentionally rude about it? Of course not. But if someone challenges me on religion, I'll fight them with all I got.

I feel that atheists are pushed aside as eccentrics or immoral buffoons (could just be the US), so I try very hard to have enough courtesy that a theist will actually WANT to talk to me. However, on this site, it's hard to be polite 24/7. I don't feel any shame for being an atheist. And I don't feel like I'm forfeiting any of my rights for being one, so when someone hushes me with the intent to never let me speak my opinion.... Things can get ugly. Lol

What's the point of having a belief or following a philosophy, if you never speak openly about it? I believe that they should be "hot topics" for everyone interested.... atheist or theist.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
belle
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9/19/2010 6:03:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
i'm not gonna randomly go tell a theist they're living in a fairy tale or anything, but if they bring it up i will express my views with an aim to start a discussion/debate of sorts. and one time i went to a party wearing a "christ hater" t-shirt... that was kind of an inside joke though. so meh.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
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9/19/2010 6:09:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't really speak my beliefs unless asked. I don't even let my family know. Lol moms trying to push her faith mega hard on me cause she thinks I might be agnostic.
I couldn't tell her I was atheist if I tried. And I have for the past 5 years tried to tell her.

If there is a random person on the street trying to preach to me, I'll just nod my head and go along, cause whats it going to hurt?
If its someone I know and tend to talk to, or someone online <especially on here> I would challenge their beliefs, ask questions etc.

I don't think I'm rude about it, I have no real shame with being who I am. I know atheists are hated, especially here. I was shocked cause I saw a car with a dawkins fish. And of course I wasn't the only one to notice so I heard about how evil and just rude such things are and how atheists are bad people that just like to mock faiths. -shrugs- oh well.
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Korashk
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9/19/2010 6:44:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
blip

You've just described the average atheist.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Puck
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9/19/2010 11:36:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote
Who am I to put doubt in that comfort?

You presume a crusade of sorts is the default position. There is nothing entailed in a belief system as is that justifies actively challenging its counter beliefs - short of those belief systems that demand it of which atheism isn't one.

That's not to say when challenged one shouldn't defend their beliefs. If your grandmother believes she will go to heaven so be it, there is likely nothing you could say to change that belief anyway or even encourage any additional doubt in that belief system. As for the unearned guilt, who knows why you feel that. :P
tvellalott
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9/19/2010 11:40:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't feel any guilt lol, hence the question mark. I'm wondering if if i SHOULD feel shame for not being more outspoken.
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Puck
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9/19/2010 11:42:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 11:40:48 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I'm wondering if if i SHOULD feel shame for not being more outspoken.

Work out the premises of why you think you should be, work out the premises of your justification for not being 'more' outspoken - compare the two.
tvellalott
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9/20/2010 12:06:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 11:42:56 PM, Puck wrote:
At 9/19/2010 11:40:48 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I'm wondering if if i SHOULD feel shame for not being more outspoken.

Work out the premises of why you think you should be, work out the premises of your justification for not being 'more' outspoken - compare the two.

I will and then i'm going to post a nice long monologue. :D
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 12:54:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I have to make a confession.

I am NOT a passionately outspoken Atheist.
If someone asks me about beliefs, or the topic of Religion comes up at a party or something, I am more than happy to speak about how I feel on the subject. My friends know how I feel about it. My family definately know how I feel about it. My ex-partner, although she was a Catholic, know and accepted it. If someone comes to the door and wants to tell me about God, I'll tell THEM how I feel about it.
I don't hide the fact I'm an Atheist, but I certainly don't protest outside of churchs or anything.

The truth of the matter is, I still feel like telling a Theist that their God is a fairy tale without provocation is rude. I consider THEM telling me about their sky wizard rude as well, but I honestly think it works both ways. I don't agree with what you believe, but as long as it doesn't cause anyone harm, I'll fight for your right to believe it and all that.

Take for example, my grandmother. Her husband of 40 years (not my biological grandfather, but a grandfather none-the-less) died recently. She is a Catholic. She goes to church and all that jazz.
How can I go and tell her that she is wrong. "Ol' gramps isn't in Heaven Nan. When his brain stopped functioning, he became worm food and nothing more." I can't. It would be heartless. As she herself gets closer to death, the 'knowledge' that she has been a good person and she will go to Heaven brings her comfort.
Who am I to put doubt in that comfort?

I'm all for telling some crazy women on the street that she ain't got no pancake mix, but I would never do that myself.

So while I consider myself both an Athiest and to come extend an Anti-theist, I am not a radical or anything.

Now, I want your opinions :P

I'm the same, what is the problem?

In fact I am one step worse than that but nevermind.

The idea that we need to preach is absurd.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
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9/20/2010 1:12:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My BFF is religious, and her grandmother (whom she was very close to) died recently. She started talking about her being in heaven, etc. Obviously I thought it would be completely rude to say "Well that's probably not true" during her time of grief lol so I played along with it. I mostly just tried to comfort her and agree when she would say things about her grandma watching over her and whatnot.

Last week, me being an atheist came up in conversation. Despite us being BFF for years and years, I never had the heart to tell her that her beliefs are silly because she's obviously comforted by them. Since she accepts me and doesn't impose her ideals upon me, I have no reason to feel bad about her beliefs. However when she asked me about mine, I felt shy (I know... very strange for me!!!) to admit that I disagreed with her, because it felt like admitting my atheism was belittling her belief in god. It shouldn't matter, but I felt weird about it. It would also reveal that everytime I passively agreed with her ramblings about heaven that I was BS'ing.

I guess on DDO it doesn't seem strange to correct people's flawed reasoning and such, but in the real world it's very apparent that this is a widespread crutch and that mayhaps it can sometimes be a good thing...?
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tvellalott
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9/20/2010 1:18:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 1:12:18 AM, theLwerd wrote:
My BFF is religious, and her grandmother (whom she was very close to) died recently. She started talking about her being in heaven, etc. Obviously I thought it would be completely rude to say "Well that's probably not true" during her time of grief lol so I played along with it. I mostly just tried to comfort her and agree when she would say things about her grandma watching over her and whatnot.

Last week, me being an atheist came up in conversation. Despite us being BFF for years and years, I never had the heart to tell her that her beliefs are silly because she's obviously comforted by them. Since she accepts me and doesn't impose her ideals upon me, I have no reason to feel bad about her beliefs. However when she asked me about mine, I felt shy (I know... very strange for me!!!) to admit that I disagreed with her, because it felt like admitting my atheism was belittling her belief in god. It shouldn't matter, but I felt weird about it. It would also reveal that everytime I passively agreed with her ramblings about heaven that I was BS'ing.

I guess on DDO it doesn't seem strange to correct people's flawed reasoning and such, but in the real world it's very apparent that this is a widespread crutch and that mayhaps it can sometimes be a good thing...?

Exactly. Here on the interwebs everyone can be a J.Kenyon-style bastard and not worry about it. In real life you have to tread on egg-shells regarding religious and political beliefs. What was that old saying?

C_N: My whole point is that sometimes I feel like I should preach! I feel like maybe I should be going around to peoples houses to tell them about the glory of godlessness.
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lovelife
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9/20/2010 1:21:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 1:12:18 AM, theLwerd wrote:
My BFF is religious, and her grandmother (whom she was very close to) died recently. She started talking about her being in heaven, etc. Obviously I thought it would be completely rude to say "Well that's probably not true" during her time of grief lol so I played along with it. I mostly just tried to comfort her and agree when she would say things about her grandma watching over her and whatnot.

Last week, me being an atheist came up in conversation. Despite us being BFF for years and years, I never had the heart to tell her that her beliefs are silly because she's obviously comforted by them. Since she accepts me and doesn't impose her ideals upon me, I have no reason to feel bad about her beliefs. However when she asked me about mine, I felt shy (I know... very strange for me!!!) to admit that I disagreed with her, because it felt like admitting my atheism was belittling her belief in god. It shouldn't matter, but I felt weird about it. It would also reveal that everytime I passively agreed with her ramblings about heaven that I was BS'ing.

I guess on DDO it doesn't seem strange to correct people's flawed reasoning and such, but in the real world it's very apparent that this is a widespread crutch and that mayhaps it can sometimes be a good thing...?

Until it affects laws and treatment of people <negatively>
I alwyas did think it was strange that it feels weird admitting lack of religious beliefs to someone who you are close to and assumes your religious. but then I was thinking that it may be just as weird admitting that you just believe a different religion.

Idk, I'm just starting to think some of the discomfort is just being different then people around you and just realizing it.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 1:24:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 1:18:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:


C_N: My whole point is that sometimes I feel like I should preach! I feel like maybe I should be going around to peoples houses to tell them about the glory of godlessness.

I don't understand why. Atheism should be an intellectual position, we don't need to preach intellectual positions. If you passionately believed in 'the big crunch' as opposed to 'heat death' would you still feel the need to knock on my door and convert me?

Admittedly my position is based on the fact that I do not really see any benefit in my atheism, though I do get the idea that the increasing atheism and secularisation of society has had benefits. I don't maybe if I was American considering how... backward people can be over there my views may be different.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Atheism
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9/20/2010 1:25:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If someone asks me what my beliefs are, I just tell them.
I mean, if you are going through a phase and what-not, I will not lie to you.
I will not say, 'Oh, god is watching over her.'
I'll say, 'I don't believe in god, but perhaps this is for the best. She doesn't have to be in pain anymore.'
If they get angry, I would not care. I normally don't give sympathy anyways, so if I am, and you want to -fight- me about it, go right on ahead. I won't care.
I miss the old members.
FREEDO
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9/20/2010 1:27:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I have to make a confession.

I am NOT a passionately outspoken Atheist.
If someone asks me about beliefs, or the topic of Religion comes up at a party or something, I am more than happy to speak about how I feel on the subject. My friends know how I feel about it. My family definately know how I feel about it. My ex-partner, although she was a Catholic, know and accepted it. If someone comes to the door and wants to tell me about God, I'll tell THEM how I feel about it.
I don't hide the fact I'm an Atheist, but I certainly don't protest outside of churchs or anything.

The truth of the matter is, I still feel like telling a Theist that their God is a fairy tale without provocation is rude. I consider THEM telling me about their sky wizard rude as well, but I honestly think it works both ways. I don't agree with what you believe, but as long as it doesn't cause anyone harm, I'll fight for your right to believe it and all that.

Take for example, my grandmother. Her husband of 40 years (not my biological grandfather, but a grandfather none-the-less) died recently. She is a Catholic. She goes to church and all that jazz.
How can I go and tell her that she is wrong. "Ol' gramps isn't in Heaven Nan. When his brain stopped functioning, he became worm food and nothing more." I can't. It would be heartless. As she herself gets closer to death, the 'knowledge' that she has been a good person and she will go to Heaven brings her comfort.
Who am I to put doubt in that comfort?

I'm all for telling some crazy women on the street that she ain't got no pancake mix, but I would never do that myself.

So while I consider myself both an Athiest and to come extend an Anti-theist, I am not a radical or anything.

Now, I want your opinions :P

I'd say I'm outspoken in all my opinions but I have definitely become much less hostile recently. Part of why I'm UU now.
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lovelife
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9/20/2010 1:27:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Atheism should be an intellectual position, we don't need to preach intellectual positions.

They call such things school. They are mandatory here.
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Korashk
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9/20/2010 1:34:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:44:01 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
blip

You've just described the average atheist.

Just pinging this TV. Your views are the same as the views of most atheists when it comes to the subject. As in, you don't actively push your beliefs.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 1:35:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 1:27:59 AM, lovelife wrote:
Atheism should be an intellectual position, we don't need to preach intellectual positions.

They call such things school. They are mandatory here.

No... that would be something else.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tvellalott
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9/20/2010 1:48:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 1:34:03 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:44:01 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/19/2010 5:49:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
blip

You've just described the average atheist.

Just pinging this TV. Your views are the same as the views of most atheists when it comes to the subject. As in, you don't actively push your beliefs.

I know. BUT I WANT TO! I want to shout "YOU AIN'T GOT NO PANCAKE MIX!!!" at Easter Mass.
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innomen
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9/20/2010 2:03:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
On the other side of the coin, i would never feel compelled to question an atheist's conviction and try and proselytize.

Here's the thing, and this is kind of important in general. Not all the world is DDO. Most people prefer conversation rather than debate and don't want their sentences challenged for fallacy. If you want to come off as a real arrogant pri<k then protest outside of a church, but i see so little difference in that than i do the Westborough Baptist Church. If you are looking for a modicum of peace with those around you, accept them for who they are and what they believe. They don't need to believe what you do.

I honestly don't even understand the purpose for pinning someone down for their religion and forcing them to question it. You must know how much of a jerk (using a nice word) one would come off as. To what end? Would it make me more comfortable if i can make you believe what i believe? I hope not, because that implies some insecurity in that i need affirmation.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 2:14:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 2:03:55 AM, innomen wrote:
On the other side of the coin, i would never feel compelled to question an atheist's conviction and try and proselytize.

Why not? What has the atheist to lose? I have issue with atheist preachers, not theistic preachers.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 2:14:21 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2010 2:03:55 AM, innomen wrote:
On the other side of the coin, i would never feel compelled to question an atheist's conviction and try and proselytize.

Why not? What has the atheist to lose? I have issue with atheist preachers, not theistic preachers.

It is the worst marketing tool i have ever seen. If your goal is to convert, there are better methods. In fact i find it to have the absolute opposite effect. Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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9/20/2010 3:02:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So while I consider myself both an Athiest and to come extend an Anti-theist, I am not a radical or anything.

Now, I want your opinions:

I usually start off my conversations with Christians with a little Deicide to lighten the mood. :)

In all seriousness, I see no point to needlessly hector Christians because I disagree with their ideology. That's just stupid, especially since it tends to validate their persecution complex. Why even give them an inch?

I try to explain to militant atheists that the best way to kill the concept of God is to not talk about it. But, like any good militant atheist, their obsession with all things "God" rivals even the most staunch of Christians, which really makes one question the motivation. I think militant atheists and anti-theists do a better job at keeping people in church than Christians do.

Anti-theism and militant atheism is as illogically hateful as the very thing they condemn for being illogically hateful -- religion.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Danielle
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9/20/2010 8:37:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM, innomen wrote:
Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.

What would you consider attractive about atheism that would bring people over to the dark side? Just curious...
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 8:59:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 8:37:22 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM, innomen wrote:
Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.

What would you consider attractive about atheism that would bring people over to the dark side? Just curious...

We could make you the poster girl... apart from that... yea.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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9/20/2010 9:10:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 8:37:22 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM, innomen wrote:
Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.

What would you consider attractive about atheism that would bring people over to the dark side? Just curious...

Each find some comfort in their own respective belief system, otherwise they wouldn't hold onto them as they do. Also in both, the prospect would need to have some doubt or misgivings about the position they hold. Confrontation is rarely constructive in both sides. The theist who has faith, and a relationship with a power greater than themselves is as unlikely to convert as the science minded person who demands evidence and reason to support a conclusion.

So.... the people in the middle are really up for grabs and the art of persuasion always bears more fruit than the skill of debate (another really good topic for debate). A careful nurturing lift from where one is to where one would like to be is how it would be done. - Again true on both sides- you show how the person will be better with or without faith in their lives.

Unfortunately those with bad religion are the ones who are most entrenched.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/20/2010 9:17:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 9:10:21 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/20/2010 8:37:22 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM, innomen wrote:
Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.

What would you consider attractive about atheism that would bring people over to the dark side? Just curious...

Each find some comfort in their own respective belief system, otherwise they wouldn't hold onto them as they do. Also in both, the prospect would need to have some doubt or misgivings about the position they hold. Confrontation is rarely constructive in both sides. The theist who has faith, and a relationship with a power greater than themselves is as unlikely to convert as the science minded person who demands evidence and reason to support a conclusion.

So.... the people in the middle are really up for grabs and the art of persuasion always bears more fruit than the skill of debate (another really good topic for debate). A careful nurturing lift from where one is to where one would like to be is how it would be done. - Again true on both sides- you show how the person will be better with or without faith in their lives.

Unfortunately those with bad religion are the ones who are most entrenched.

I would rather that someone merely be rational and a theist than irrational and convinced of atheism simply due to a glib argument or a clever bit of manipulation.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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9/20/2010 9:24:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/20/2010 9:17:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2010 9:10:21 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/20/2010 8:37:22 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/20/2010 2:18:33 AM, innomen wrote:
Attraction rather than promotion is always a better method of bringing someone over to your side.

What would you consider attractive about atheism that would bring people over to the dark side? Just curious...

Each find some comfort in their own respective belief system, otherwise they wouldn't hold onto them as they do. Also in both, the prospect would need to have some doubt or misgivings about the position they hold. Confrontation is rarely constructive in both sides. The theist who has faith, and a relationship with a power greater than themselves is as unlikely to convert as the science minded person who demands evidence and reason to support a conclusion.

So.... the people in the middle are really up for grabs and the art of persuasion always bears more fruit than the skill of debate (another really good topic for debate). A careful nurturing lift from where one is to where one would like to be is how it would be done. - Again true on both sides- you show how the person will be better with or without faith in their lives.

Unfortunately those with bad religion are the ones who are most entrenched.

I would rather that someone merely be rational and a theist than irrational and convinced of atheism simply due to a glib argument or a clever bit of manipulation.

Like i said C_N all the world is not DDO. If it were i'd be out of a job.