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ALL Christians disprove their own faith

John_Royals
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10/18/2015 9:28:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I will present a new argument for non-theists when confronted by Christians, that I discovered when I went to a Bible College (Liberty University) and pursued a degree in Pastoral Studies and Theology. Therefore, my interpretations of the scriptures are well known and well accepted in the bible Christian community. These arguments pertain to non-denominational Christianity, or "Bible" Christians. I point this out, because all other denominations are coincidentally proven wrong in some of these arguments. Also, of all the Christians I know and are my friends; non-denominational's are the most open minded and respectful. Read the actual scripture from a Bible, I cannot post too many for character limit reasons. I am using NASB text, because it was what I used to believe before I shifted my views to Humanism.

1.) The Bible is the absolute word of God, and God's word is absolute
2 Timothy 3:14-17 specifically looking at verse 16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" Supporting text: Deuteronomy 29:29, Romans 4:23, Romans 15:4, 2 Peter 1:21

2.) God is a jealous God
Exodus 34:13-15 verse 14 " for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"
Supporting text: Exodus 20:3, Exodus 20:5, Ezekiel 23:25, Zephaniah 1:18

3.) God's Forgiveness of Sin, and "amazing grace"
Ephesians 1:6-8, verse 7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"
Supporting text: Psalm 130:7, Romans 2:4, Romans 3:24-25, Zechariah 9:10-12

4.) Salvation can only be attained through Christ, nature of salvation
Ezekiel 36:25-27 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
Supporting text: John 14:16, Ephesians 2:8, John 3:16, Romans 10:9, Mark 16:16

5.) All sin is equal before God
James 2:10-11 "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law"
Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, 1 Samuel 15:23, Luke 13:1-5

6.) Salvation is evidence through works
James 1:22-27 "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man"s religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."
Supporting text: Matthew 7:16-20, Hebrews 13:21, James 2:25-26, Acts 13:39, Phillipians 1:11

Alrighty, so these are all biblical doctrines that are true, I will also use referrals to other well known arguments, because of character limit, and it's basically common knowledge. Now to orchestrate my argument.

ARGUMENT 1:First, God is a Jealous God. In God's domain he has weird creatures flying around constantly professing "Holy Holy Holy, is the Lord God Almighty." Yet, anyone who does not utter these words invokes God's "righteous" wrath. It's oddly peculiar that a perfect being like God (there are numerous biblical references to this), holds jealousy and contempt for what he sees as wicked. Furthermore, God is the final Judge of all creation, and knows all things. Therefore he knew Adam and Eve would bring sin into his "perfect" world, so why did he bother to create it in the first place when he loathes sin so much? Furthermore, what's the point of his Gospel if he knows who will be in hell and who won't? What about his perfect understanding, that he created an imperfect creation where only by his own death, is sin absolved for all mankind. What's God's perfect purpose, if he already knows and has the capacity to create Heaven, an Eden of perfection? This doesn't disprove God necessarily, but shows an error in his "perfection."

And to argue that it is not "for man to understand the reasons of God." Why not? Why am I allowed to know how I was supposedly born into sin of my ancestors, but not why? Especially when it is God's mandate that I serve him until the death of my flesh, and why I need salvation in the first place. It seems very outlandish that this would occur if my God is an "awesome, perfect, merciful, ""Holy," God."

ARGUMENT 2: Secondly, salvation itself demands similar perfection. The aspect of salvation, requires you be "baptized" in the spirit. This of course means, your sinful state of being must die (by accepting Jesus' death as atonement [ritual practice in Judaic law]) and then God gives you the spirit of Jesus Christ to give you new life free from sin. I refer to Galatians 2:20 when Paul talks about his new life in Christ not of himself. Also in Revelations when Jesus tells John that anyone who allows Jesus to enter, he will stay with them. Curiously the word "dine." Which is referring both to the communion, and symbolic that he will reside with them (because someone who dines with you doesn't intend on leaving immediately afterwords).

It is also well known in Biblical Doctrine that the Church is the body of Christ. Christ's only purpose in life was to bring sinner's to God and absolve man of sin. Therefore once you accept Salvation you become the body of Christ. Ephesians 2:18-22. Pointing specifically at "...the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." What did Jesus do when he walked into a Holy Temple that was sinful?

Therefore, Biblical doctrine demands that your faith is evident in your works. Not your faith that your sin will constantly be absolved, that you can no longer sin. every Disciple turned completely from sin after Jesus died. As well, Paul originally Saul of Tarsus changed his name to symbolically proclaim that anything in the life he refers to in the past is no longer meaningful. So, all these Christians not in ministry, or perform sin of any kind; doesn't have salvation. And this is the foundation that crumbles my belief in God.

This is what God expects in salvation; that you not be of the world in any way. You are a vessel of the Body of Christ to spread the Gospel of the Lord and convicted by the Holy Spirit to do so. Despite your earnest wishes to validate your faith, which is rife with argument on this forum, your works alone validate your faith. For a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Nor a bad tree Good fruit. Your God said this. The Bible is the irrefutable word of the Lord, therefore any science you throw behind Christianity is sinful
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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10/18/2015 11:27:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/18/2015 9:28:55 PM, John_Royals wrote:
ARGUMENT 1:First, God is a Jealous God. In God's domain he has weird creatures flying around constantly professing "Holy Holy Holy, is the Lord God Almighty." Yet, anyone who does not utter these words invokes God's "righteous" wrath. It's oddly peculiar that a perfect being like God (there are numerous biblical references to this), holds jealousy and contempt for what he sees as wicked. Furthermore, God is the final Judge of all creation, and knows all things. Therefore he knew Adam and Eve would bring sin into his "perfect" world, so why did he bother to create it in the first place when he loathes sin so much? Furthermore, what's the point of his Gospel if he knows who will be in hell and who won't? What about his perfect understanding, that he created an imperfect creation where only by his own death, is sin absolved for all mankind. What's God's perfect purpose, if he already knows and has the capacity to create Heaven, an Eden of perfection? This doesn't disprove God necessarily, but shows an error in his "perfection."

And to argue that it is not "for man to understand the reasons of God." Why not? Why am I allowed to know how I was supposedly born into sin of my ancestors, but not why? Especially when it is God's mandate that I serve him until the death of my flesh, and why I need salvation in the first place. It seems very outlandish that this would occur if my God is an "awesome, perfect, merciful, ""Holy," God."

ARGUMENT 2: Secondly, salvation itself demands similar perfection. The aspect of salvation, requires you be "baptized" in the spirit. This of course means, your sinful state of being must die (by accepting Jesus' death as atonement [ritual practice in Judaic law]) and then God gives you the spirit of Jesus Christ to give you new life free from sin. I refer to Galatians 2:20 when Paul talks about his new life in Christ not of himself. Also in Revelations when Jesus tells John that anyone who allows Jesus to enter, he will stay with them. Curiously the word "dine." Which is referring both to the communion, and symbolic that he will reside with them (because someone who dines with you doesn't intend on leaving immediately afterwords).

It is also well known in Biblical Doctrine that the Church is the body of Christ. Christ's only purpose in life was to bring sinner's to God and absolve man of sin. Therefore once you accept Salvation you become the body of Christ. Ephesians 2:18-22. Pointing specifically at "...the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." What did Jesus do when he walked into a Holy Temple that was sinful?

Therefore, Biblical doctrine demands that your faith is evident in your works. Not your faith that your sin will constantly be absolved, that you can no longer sin. every Disciple turned completely from sin after Jesus died. As well, Paul originally Saul of Tarsus changed his name to symbolically proclaim that anything in the life he refers to in the past is no longer meaningful. So, all these Christians not in ministry, or perform sin of any kind; doesn't have salvation. And this is the foundation that crumbles my belief in God.

This is what God expects in salvation; that you not be of the world in any way. You are a vessel of the Body of Christ to spread the Gospel of the Lord and convicted by the Holy Spirit to do so. Despite your earnest wishes to validate your faith, which is rife with argument on this forum, your works alone validate your faith. For a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Nor a bad tree Good fruit. Your God said this. The Bible is the irrefutable word of the Lord, therefore any science you throw behind Christianity is sinful

The fall of man happened the moment we considered ourselves to be the rightful judges of Good and Evil. Though we have knowledge of good and evil, we can not see everything. We do not make good judges. God is the right judge.

But it seems pretty apparent that you don't understand what the concept of God is supposed to represent. God represents the way things truly are independent of any bias. God represents The Ultimate Reality.

Scripture documents a people's relationship with this Ultimate Reality. Right off the bat, you are making a theological error by claiming that the Bible is equated with the absolute word of God. This in itself is a type of idolatry of scripture. Remember, the letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law brings life! I say this not to cheapen scripture, truly it is useful for instruction in godliness! There is a reason Jesus was accused of attempting to abolish the law and prophets!

So yes, you are right. The God of your understanding is not God. You are off the mark. Christian scripture outlines an agnostic faith. Not agnostic about the existence of God, which is a given, but the nature of God.

The Law and the Prophets was summed up by Jesus as, "Love God with all your heart soul and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself. This is the same thing as saying, Love Reality and Truth above all things, and practice forgiveness and charity towards others. A disciple of Christ should make it his or her goal to better understand these things and put them into practice. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Where does this law of forgiveness come from? It comes from understanding a few things. First, we all fall short of the glory of God. It is also written that a man who claims to be without sin does not have the truth in him. Everyone sins, it is an unavoidable part of human existence. Remember how I said earlier that the fall of man occurred when we took ourselves to be rightful judges of good and evil? This comes full circle when we honestly evaluate ourselves and see how we unintentionally make mistakes. We were made this way, God's will is done. We are forgiven, and do not have to be trapped into patterns by our previous behavior. We can always change course, and we are justified by our sincere faith, not works.

God has forgiven us, as he made us this way. Now, accepting God's forgiveness, we in turn forgive others for offense. Not condemnation, not tolerance, but forgiveness. When we judge others, we judge ourselves, because we practice the very same things. You can't point the finger without having three pointed back at you.

And with that, it must be understood that we are not justified by our works, but our faith. As James rightly says, with faith comes works, but it isn't the works alone that are good.

It's about where your heart is. It's all about the heart. The name Jesus means, "God saves". God is where salvation lies, not man.

It is written that the greatest among you will be the servant of all. Who alone serves all but is the greatest? God. Who is the first and the last? God. You will not find perfection in the flesh.

Is not God the only one who bears only good fruit? Jesus The Son of Man even said, "Why do you call me good? There is only one Good, and that is God alone."

As it is written in Paul's letter to the Colossians...

"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations" "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using"according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
John_Royals
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10/19/2015 1:10:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
UniversalTheologian, according to the scriptures it is true that God reveals himself not through words alone, that creation is evidence of his glory alone. However, the Bible was written by Men moved by the Holy Spirit of God. Therefore they wrote the words according to God's will. I am not arguing about God's greatness or whatever; I am arguing demands and what is expected.

Jesus was without sin, he was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit. The proof that he was without sin, is because we are told a story about the temptations of Christ. Why would Christ need to be tempted if he had sin? To show that sin has no power over the righteous. To truly reject the temptation of sin, one must be without sin. This is to prove that salvation can only be given by God, for he is without sin. It's why Jesus rebukes the Jews who bring a prostitute before him. Because as stated, all fall short of the glory of God.

Ipso facto, there very aspect of salvation through Christ makes one without sin. Therefore you have become not of this world, but of the spirit. You have become the body of Christ. It cannot be denied this is God's will.

Also you quote the passage where Jesus says he is not good, only God alone (Luke 18:19). Except Jesus is not denying that he is not good (from a moral standpoint). A big misunderstanding, Jesus is questioning this man's values. Jesus is asserting that the Rich man does not know what constitutes good; for the rich man finds wealth good, and will not understand that God is all the wealth he needs. This is very contextual, not a statement to be pulled out to say Jesus is not good. Jesus is stating that Jesus does not hold any wealth, only God provides wealth.

Which leads me to my argument all along. God provides all. Because you and I both establish, God's will is the only will. Jesus and the OT assert time and time again, how no matter what Man does; God's will endures. The ultimate theme of the Bible. With this understanding, the most evident understanding God can provide. It leads to me believe that God's perfect will and law is still a silly notion.

God demands that for salvation from eternal damnation, one must reject sin (this world) and pursue him first in all things. Second, one must love others with the greatest of compassion. His second commandment isn't an excuse from sin. As I pointed out in the OP salvation means that Christ has built a temple in you. The passage of Ezekiel when God proclaims his new covenant (salvation through Jesus) GOD says clearly what GOD will do. "I will move you to follow MY statutes, and be careful to obey MY ordinances."

If you are saved, then the world has no wealth to you anymore. This is evident because Paul and Jesus both talk about works as a revelation of faith. Only God can grant miracles, and those who have God with them can do these things. That's why the stories of Jesus feeding the 5000 are very important to Christian doctorine. 1.) They show that when one walks with God they can provide for all the lost, with seemingly very little. 2.) To show that Jesus could indeed perform miracles. 3.) That those who seek out God earnestly will be provided for on his miracle alone.

This is being stated because of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was to reveal God through the Jewish traditions and laws. The New Covenant is to reveal God through faith. The biggest theme of the new testament is Hope and Faith. This is why Paul tells the churches not to be too concerned with laws of OT because God's new revelation is not circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. God has given you all that you need, you don't need to practice the Old Law, the New Law will suffice.

So, the new covenant that grants salvation for everyone; demands that we seek God in all things, and proclaim the glory of God. This is what Jesus tells the rich man. Sell everything, and "follow me." Interesting command Jesus asserts at the end, follow me. Often overlooked. Jesus life shows that after seeking out God, you must proclaim his name. Care nothing of the worldly possessions but spread the Gospel. That is the very definition of Gospel. Good news.

All these things I have written, to conclude my original argument. God created a creation in his image. He allows his creation to come under temptation from sin, something that can never be reconciled to God. Therefore he offers man salvation through himself alone. However, unless you do as Paul and Jesus did; you are not saved. Until your death, your new life in Christ is shown only by your works. You can produce good fruit because Jesus has made you a good tree. However, a bad tree can not produce good fruit. So, by knowing the scriptures; understanding the Covenant and grace of God and loving others earnestly; i am a bad tree. I will ultimately suffer hell. I have not attained eternal life or salvation. because all sin is sin, and God cannot be of sin. God cannot reconcile sin, no be apart of it. God can only judge sin. So if God gives you a new spirit, you must be without sin.


I cannot believe in God, because of the faith of others. Those who earnestly proclaim so highly their faith and love for God, yet stacked up to the demands; I quote James 1:26 "If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless" God demands perfection, and very few people can attain perfect salvation. for even if you believe you are doing good. God can only judge.

For the faithful in God, reveal themselves to be just as Human as everyone else. But if you had the spirit of God in you, you would not be of this world, God would be revealed to the world through you. Therefore with all this conjecture from the scriptures and biblical Theology I believe that faith unravels God's existence. God only exist because the "faithful" allow him to exist. Whether God is real, would mean a lot of Christians are going to hell or have no real salvation. I don't think there is anyone on earth who can even come close to the virtues of Jesus, and if so kudos. But it's not for me
UniversalTheologian
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10/19/2015 2:04:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am a disciple of Christ. Discipline is something intrinsic to discipleship.

All the work I do involves charity, teaching, and serving others. I do not accumulate wealth, I work at a mission, and I do not get paid in money.

My faith? Solid. I love God more than anything, everything else in this world is utterly vain to me. I don't want anything. It isn't a big thing to me. I don't do things for others under the delusion that I'm helping them, I don't do it for the vain imaginings of an afterlife, I don't do it because I gain joy out of it, I do it because if I'm going to do anything at all, that is what I would do. Even among my brothers in Christ, I have been told, "Either you have a lot of faith, or you are some kind of masochist!". I'm very happy.

Am I better than anyone else? No. Who am I to judge? The scriptures say that we are not to argue over mythologies, fables, genealogies, as these cause disputes, and that the command is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

I think it's important to realize that there really is a difference between a cultural Christian and one who is a disciple of Christ. You can't be born a Christian, a Christian must be born again of the spirit!

No, I really do live out the faith, and I know many others who do the same. I do not say these things to puff myself up, I say these things to testify that there truly is a peace that surpasses all understanding. If you saw how I lived, you'd probably think I was crazy for being happy with it. This is the life that I've chosen, and as I said, there are others like me.

Now does any of this add anything to my salvation? Absolutely not. Salvation is by grace, not works. We are justified by our faith, or sincerely held beliefs.

Heart purification and accepting God, who is The Ultimate Reality is what it is about. I tell you truly, no amount of luxury in the next life will satisfy you if you have not found heaven here in this one. God is where salvation lies, and this I am a witness to. There is nothing that could shake my faith, because it really works. How can I prove this? It's impossible, it's very personal. People want results, but they are unwilling to go through the experiments.

It really doesn't matter what you do, there will always be those who judge you. You could be a paragon of human virtue and people will find a way to find fault in you. It's unavoidable.

It's not for you? Hey, that's fine. It isn't for most people. Practice sincerity of faith and forgiveness towards others. You'll be on the straight path.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer