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The Bible Proves Jesus was not Crucified.

Julia5678
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10/20/2015 3:22:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
People familiar with their bible would know that Enoch and Elijah are unique in that they never died a physical death on earth but rather were lifted up supernaturally."

"...And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

The same is echoed even in the Quran, where Enoch is known as Idris."

"And mention in the Book, Idrees. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. And We raised him to a high station. " (The Quran 19:56-57)

We know that Elijah also was lifted up to heaven"
"...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.""

With Enoch and Elijah, the bible establishes the concept of a man being lifted up to heaven."

However, the Quran states that a third man, Jesus was also lifted up to heaven.

"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness." (The Quran 4:156-159)

Basically, those who tried to kill Jesus were fooled into thinking they did so... but in reality, Jesus was lifted up, like Enoch and Elijah before he was captured/crucified."

The Islamic account of Jesus directly opposes the crucifixion story and has been a point of contention between Christians and Muslims. But what if the bible actually supports Islams claim that Jesus was indeed lifted up and was saved from crucifixion?"

Lets have a look
During Jesus temptation, Satan suggests that Jesus jump off the highest point of the temple and quotes a scripture..."
""He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."""

Satan used scripture to basically reassure Jesus that he would be lifted up by angels so that even his feet wont touch a stone on the ground below. This establishes that Jesus was the subject of this particular psalm."

Jesus did not deny this scripture, but instead countered Satan by bringing up another scripture which said God should not be tested. With this we can deduce that"Jesus knew that the scripture Satan was quoting referred to him."

The scripture that Satan quoted was Psalm 91."

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High"
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty."
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress,"
my God, in whom I trust.""
3 Surely he will save you"
from the fowler"s snare"
and from the deadly pestilence."
4 He will cover you with his feathers,"
and under his wings you will find refuge;"
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart."
5 You will not fear the terror of night,"
nor the arrow that flies by day,"
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,"
nor the plague that destroys at midday."
7 A thousand may fall at your side,"
ten thousand at your right hand,"
but it will not come near you."
8 You will only observe with your eyes"
and see the punishment of the wicked."
9 If you say, "The Lord is my refuge,""
and you make the Most High your dwelling,"
10 no harm will overtake you,"
no disaster will come near your tent."
11 For he will command his angels concerning you"
to guard you in all your ways;"
12 they will lift you up in their hands,"
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

I know for a fact that if Psalm 91 ended with "him" being crucified or given to his enemies, Christians would be waving it all around as final and conclusive proof that this Psalm was a direct prophecy that Jesus would be crucifed. However, Psalm 91 ends in favor of the Islamic view that Jesus was lifted up and saved..."

13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra;"
you will trample the great lion and the serpent."
14 "Because he loves me," says the Lord, "I will rescue him;"
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name."
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;"
I will be with him in trouble,"
I will deliver him and honor him."
16 With long life I will satisfy him"
and show him my salvation.""

The underlined part talks about him"calling on God.. and God answering him by rescuing and protecting him""Now, we all know that Jesus did call on God for "the cup to pass from him" moments before his arrest. So considering Psalm 91 pertains to Jesus, we can conclude the following about Jesus-"

-Jesus called on God"
-God answered Jesus"
-God rescued Jesus"
-God protected Jesus"
-God delivered Jesus"
-no harm overtook Jesus"
-no disaster came near Jesus"
-God commanded his angels concerning Jesus to guard Jesus"
-The angels"lifted Jesus up"in their hands"
-Jesus never struck his foot against the stones below"

This confirms Islams teaching that Jesus was lifted up to heaven... and the part about his feet not touching the stones below indicates he could not have been killed and buried."

All this of directly contradicts the account of Jesus crucifixion....And Psalm 91 shows us that Jesus was the third person after Enoch and Elijah to be "lifted up" to heaven."

Source, www.abovetopsecrets.com
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?
Julia5678
Posts: 55
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10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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10/20/2015 8:56:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.

A pop song from 300bc is proof that someone wasn't crucified in 33ad, now I get it<sarcasm because you wouldn't get it>
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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10/20/2015 1:38:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.

The church is lying about certain things but not about that. Proselytising will get you nowhere because Islam is not an option for Christians and less of an option for free thinking spiritual people. Islam is like death to them.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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10/20/2015 1:57:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is no evidence to verify the existence of any deity. ALL religions including Christianity and a Islam are human productions. Their holy books prove NOTHING.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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10/20/2015 2:11:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.

He was cruxified but you are right about one thing. His death did not wash away mankind's so called sins. His purpose was to show humans their own divinity. Your own religion was meant only for Arabs. It will die eventually when the new Christ Consciousness age comes in, very soon.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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10/20/2015 2:47:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.

The church is lying about certain things but not about that. Proselytising will get you nowhere because Islam is not an option for Christians and less of an option for free thinking spiritual people. Islam is like death to them.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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10/20/2015 9:23:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 3:22:55 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
People familiar with their bible would know that Enoch and Elijah are unique in that they never died a physical death on earth but rather were lifted up supernaturally."

"...And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

The same is echoed even in the Quran, where Enoch is known as Idris."

"And mention in the Book, Idrees. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. And We raised him to a high station. " (The Quran 19:56-57)

We know that Elijah also was lifted up to heaven"
"...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.""

With Enoch and Elijah, the bible establishes the concept of a man being lifted up to heaven."

However, the Quran states that a third man, Jesus was also lifted up to heaven.

"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness." (The Quran 4:156-159)

Basically, those who tried to kill Jesus were fooled into thinking they did so... but in reality, Jesus was lifted up, like Enoch and Elijah before he was captured/crucified."

The Islamic account of Jesus directly opposes the crucifixion story and has been a point of contention between Christians and Muslims. But what if the bible actually supports Islams claim that Jesus was indeed lifted up and was saved from crucifixion?"

Lets have a look
During Jesus temptation, Satan suggests that Jesus jump off the highest point of the temple and quotes a scripture..."
""He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."""

Satan used scripture to basically reassure Jesus that he would be lifted up by angels so that even his feet wont touch a stone on the ground below. This establishes that Jesus was the subject of this particular psalm."

Jesus did not deny this scripture, but instead countered Satan by bringing up another scripture which said God should not be tested. With this we can deduce that"Jesus knew that the scripture Satan was quoting referred to him."

The scripture that Satan quoted was Psalm 91."

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High"
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty."
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress,"
my God, in whom I trust.""
3 Surely he will save you"
from the fowler"s snare"
and from the deadly pestilence."
4 He will cover you with his feathers,"
and under his wings you will find refuge;"
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart."
5 You will not fear the terror of night,"
nor the arrow that flies by day,"
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,"
nor the plague that destroys at midday."
7 A thousand may fall at your side,"
ten thousand at your right hand,"
but it will not come near you."
8 You will only observe with your eyes"
and see the punishment of the wicked."
9 If you say, "The Lord is my refuge,""
and you make the Most High your dwelling,"
10 no harm will overtake you,"
no disaster will come near your tent."
11 For he will command his angels concerning you"
to guard you in all your ways;"
12 they will lift you up in their hands,"
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

I know for a fact that if Psalm 91 ended with "him" being crucified or given to his enemies, Christians would be waving it all around as final and conclusive proof that this Psalm was a direct prophecy that Jesus would be crucifed. However, Psalm 91 ends in favor of the Islamic view that Jesus was lifted up and saved..."

13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra;"
you will trample the great lion and the serpent."
14 "Because he loves me," says the Lord, "I will rescue him;"
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name."
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;"
I will be with him in trouble,"
I will deliver him and honor him."
16 With long life I will satisfy him"
and show him my salvation.""

The underlined part talks about him"calling on God.. and God answering him by rescuing and protecting him""Now, we all know that Jesus did call on God for "the cup to pass from him" moments before his arrest. So considering Psalm 91 pertains to Jesus, we can conclude the following about Jesus-"

-Jesus called on God"
-God answered Jesus"
-God rescued Jesus"
-God protected Jesus"
-God delivered Jesus"
-no harm overtook Jesus"
-no disaster came near Jesus"
-God commanded his angels concerning Jesus to guard Jesus"
-The angels"lifted Jesus up"in their hands"
-Jesus never struck his foot against the stones below"

This confirms Islams teaching that Jesus was lifted up to heaven... and the part about his feet not touching the stones below indicates he could not have been killed and buried."

All this of directly contradicts the account of Jesus crucifixion....And Psalm 91 shows us that Jesus was the third person after Enoch and Elijah to be "lifted up" to heaven."

Source, www.abovetopsecrets.com

Your interpretation seems to be at odds with other passages such as:

Isaiah 53: 1-12: Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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10/21/2015 3:36:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.

You needn't worry about Paul. He never had a human Jesus anyway. His Jesus was a celestial being who was supposedly sacrificed in heaven, if you can believe anything Paul wrote anyway.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,032
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10/21/2015 8:21:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 3:22:55 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
People familiar with their bible would know that Enoch and Elijah are unique in that they never died a physical death on earth but rather were lifted up supernaturally."

"...And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

The same is echoed even in the Quran, where Enoch is known as Idris."

"And mention in the Book, Idrees. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. And We raised him to a high station. " (The Quran 19:56-57)

We know that Elijah also was lifted up to heaven"
"...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.""

With Enoch and Elijah, the bible establishes the concept of a man being lifted up to heaven."

However, the Quran states that a third man, Jesus was also lifted up to heaven.

"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness." (The Quran 4:156-159)

Basically, those who tried to kill Jesus were fooled into thinking they did so... but in reality, Jesus was lifted up, like Enoch and Elijah before he was captured/crucified."

The Islamic account of Jesus directly opposes the crucifixion story and has been a point of contention between Christians and Muslims. But what if the bible actually supports Islams claim that Jesus was indeed lifted up and was saved from crucifixion?"

Lets have a look
During Jesus temptation, Satan suggests that Jesus jump off the highest point of the temple and quotes a scripture..."
""He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."""

Satan used scripture to basically reassure Jesus that he would be lifted up by angels so that even his feet wont touch a stone on the ground below. This establishes that Jesus was the subject of this particular psalm."

Jesus did not deny this scripture, but instead countered Satan by bringing up another scripture which said God should not be tested. With this we can deduce that"Jesus knew that the scripture Satan was quoting referred to him."

The scripture that Satan quoted was Psalm 91."

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High"
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty."
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress,"
my God, in whom I trust.""
3 Surely he will save you"
from the fowler"s snare"
and from the deadly pestilence."
4 He will cover you with his feathers,"
and under his wings you will find refuge;"
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart."
5 You will not fear the terror of night,"
nor the arrow that flies by day,"
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,"
nor the plague that destroys at midday."
7 A thousand may fall at your side,"
ten thousand at your right hand,"
but it will not come near you."
8 You will only observe with your eyes"
and see the punishment of the wicked."
9 If you say, "The Lord is my refuge,""
and you make the Most High your dwelling,"
10 no harm will overtake you,"
no disaster will come near your tent."
11 For he will command his angels concerning you"
to guard you in all your ways;"
12 they will lift you up in their hands,"
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

I know for a fact that if Psalm 91 ended with "him" being crucified or given to his enemies, Christians would be waving it all around as final and conclusive proof that this Psalm was a direct prophecy that Jesus would be crucifed. However, Psalm 91 ends in favor of the Islamic view that Jesus was lifted up and saved..."

13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra;"
you will trample the great lion and the serpent."
14 "Because he loves me," says the Lord, "I will rescue him;"
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name."
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;"
I will be with him in trouble,"
I will deliver him and honor him."
16 With long life I will satisfy him"
and show him my salvation.""

The underlined part talks about him"calling on God.. and God answering him by rescuing and protecting him""Now, we all know that Jesus did call on God for "the cup to pass from him" moments before his arrest. So considering Psalm 91 pertains to Jesus, we can conclude the following about Jesus-"

-Jesus called on God"
-God answered Jesus"
-God rescued Jesus"
-God protected Jesus"
-God delivered Jesus"
-no harm overtook Jesus"
-no disaster came near Jesus"
-God commanded his angels concerning Jesus to guard Jesus"
-The angels"lifted Jesus up"in their hands"
-Jesus never struck his foot against the stones below"

This confirms Islams teaching that Jesus was lifted up to heaven... and the part about his feet not touching the stones below indicates he could not have been killed and buried."

All this of directly contradicts the account of Jesus crucifixion....And Psalm 91 shows us that Jesus was the third person after Enoch and Elijah to be "lifted up" to heaven."

Source, www.abovetopsecrets.com

so did Jesus die at all and if so how??
12_13
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10/21/2015 8:44:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 3:22:55 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
However, the Quran states that a third man, Jesus was also lifted up to heaven.

Bible also tells that Jesus was lifted, but Bible says also that Jesus was crucified. I believe what the Bible tells.

But I don"t understand why it is a problem for you, when you can believe that person is lifted to heaven. If God, all powerful as I believe, raises Jesus from the death, how can you say it is not possible for God?
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
lotsoffun
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10/22/2015 1:19:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM, Emilrose wrote:
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.

Muslims take a lot of abuse, some deserved, some not. Some of them have a need to prove that they are right. They believe that their prophet is the last prophet and that their religion, though only meant for Arabs so they would worship one God, has to take over the world. In fairness, born again Christians want to convert everyone too. The difference is that Muslims, or more or less the Islamists, are willing to kill you if you don't convert. Violence and an unwillingness to accommodate or even compromise is much more prevalent among modern day Muslims than Christians. They don't seem to understand that because of this their religion is very much despised and they can't figure out why.
Emilrose
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10/22/2015 1:20:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Additionally, YHVH actually means Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey.

That is the correct Hebrew translation.

I'd advise that you just focus on your own 'religion' and stop trying the undermine and attach different interpretations to others'.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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10/22/2015 1:30:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM, Emilrose wrote:
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.

How is something written at least 150 years after his death anything but potentially marginally more reliable even if this Yeshu is indeed the same person? Whether it is 150 years or 600, it can still only be supposition given the state of the world at that time. Seven or more generations is far too long for anything approaching historical reliability.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com...

"The key question that arises involves the origin of these rabbinic references. The value of these passages would be greatly enhanced if they originated from contemporaries of Jesus who were eyewitnesses of the events they were reporting. This would be true even though they presented the side of Jesus' opponents. On several occasions, however, aspects of these accounts seem to be due less to eyewitness reports than to later Jewish intereaction with the teachings and claims of the early church.

It seems to me that the passage about the execution of Jesus (b. Sanhedrin 43a) derives not necessarily from the actual events but from Jewish and Christian dialogue & polemics. Notice that in the Christian Gospels, Jesus is given a hasty and highly illegal trial in the middle of the night in which false witnesses testify against him. In the Jewish response to the Christian story, Jesus is given a full forty day period in which witnesses could have stepped forward to defend him."

--- Robert Stein
Julia5678
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10/22/2015 3:49:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/21/2015 8:21:08 AM, graceofgod wrote

so did Jesus die at all and if so how??

Jesus was not crucified, because God saved him before the Romans came. The angels lifted him up to heavens. But another one was crucified instead of Jesus; Judas. By the will of God, Judas resembled Jesus and the Romans who had never seen Jesus before thought that Judas is Jesus and crucified him. And this is exactly what Psalm 91 says:

"8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked."

The wicked refers to Judas. God punished him through crucifixion because he betrayed Jesus, and also God saved Jesus as he promised. And this is exactly what the Quran says:

"And [for] their saying, ','Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise." (4:156-157)
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,599
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10/22/2015 3:58:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 3:49:14 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/21/2015 8:21:08 AM, graceofgod wrote

so did Jesus die at all and if so how??

Jesus was not crucified, because God saved him before the Romans came. The angels lifted him up to heavens. But another one was crucified instead of Jesus; Judas. By the will of God, Judas resembled Jesus and the Romans who had never seen Jesus before thought that Judas is Jesus and crucified him. And this is exactly what Psalm 91 says:

"8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked."

The wicked refers to Judas. God punished him through crucifixion because he betrayed Jesus, and also God saved Jesus as he promised. And this is exactly what the Quran says:

"And [for] their saying, ','Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise." (4:156-157)

As a 16 year old, don't you have better and more fun things to do than trying to convert people to Islam? I am not picking on you because I would say the same thing to a born again Christian, but I like Christianity better than Islam. I realize your religion has some good basic tenants but because of the violence of your prophet and of modern day Islamists with their zeal to convert the world, people really despise Islam, even though because of political correctness they won't say so. You will have to convert 6 billion people to turn everyone into a Muslim.
POFOdebate
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10/22/2015 4:28:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 8:13:00 AM, Julia5678 wrote:
At 10/20/2015 3:36:14 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
Why are you Muslims so bent on trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified? Is that a response to the venom spewed out against Mohamed?

Hi.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because he was really not crucified.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified because Paul and other corruptors of the Bible are teaching false and nonsense doctrines to naive Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because the churches are hiding the truth from Christians.
We are trying to prove Jesus was not crucified, because we want to show the truth to Christians and guide them to the Straight Path. They only have one Savior and he is our Lord, Allah/God/Yahweh/Jehovah. And Jesus has not sacrificed himself for our sins.

Whelp. You are pretty much dumb. He WAS crucified and died for our sins.
Julia5678
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10/22/2015 5:06:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM, Emilrose wrote:
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.

First of all, Islam is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and guidance which Allah/Yahweh revealed to all previous prophets and messengers.
They all were submitted to Allah/Yahweh and have called their people to worship amd serve the same Lord, the Creator, the Sustainer of the universe.

Secondly, I only believe in the Holy Quran as the vary words of Allah/Yahweh. Do you want to know what the Quran says about Talmud and the Jews who believe in it?

In the Talmud, there are many blasphemies against Jesus Christ and Saint Mary. I only mention two:

"Miriam the hairdresser had sex with many men." (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)

"She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the harlot with carpenters." (Sanhedrin 106a)

The Quran says about these blasphemy, "And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander," (the Quran 4:156)

I have studied the story of Saint Mary in the Quran. She was one of the purest women in the world.
"And [mention] when the angels said, 'O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds." (3:42)

So why should I believe in Talmud while it slanders such a pure woman?
Only the Quran speaks the truth.

"The truth is from your Lord, so never be among the doubters." (2:147)
Julia5678
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10/22/2015 5:15:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 1:19:40 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

Muslims take a lot of abuse, some deserved, some not. Some of them have a need to prove that they are right. They believe that their prophet is the last prophet and that their religion, though only meant for Arabs so they would worship one God, has to take over the world. In fairness, born again Christians want to convert everyone too. The difference is that Muslims, or more or less the Islamists, are willing to kill you if you don't convert. Violence and an unwillingness to accommodate or even compromise is much more prevalent among modern day Muslims than Christians. They don't seem to understand that because of this their religion is very much despised and they can't figure out why.

You are right about Prophet Muhammad (sawa) being the last Prophet of God and that Muslims believe in one God. But does this Holy verse order Muslims to kill those who do not convert?

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong." (2:256)
Julia5678
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10/22/2015 5:39:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 3:58:44 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

As a 16 year old, don't you have better and more fun things to do than trying to convert people to Islam? I am not picking on you because I would say the same thing to a born again Christian, but I like Christianity better than Islam. I realize your religion has some good basic tenants but because of the violence of your prophet and of modern day Islamists with their zeal to convert the world, people really despise Islam, even though because of political correctness they won't say so. You will have to convert 6 billion people to turn everyone into a Muslim.

I may be too young to preach Islam but at least I am not like those who have hearts with which they do not understand, who have eyes with which they do not see, and who have ears with which they do not hear.
I admit that there are many blinfolded people like you who just use media to gain information about Islam and do not bother themselves to use the correct sources. Your enemies and our enemies are trying to conceal the truth and reveal the falsehood. They are controlling your minds and tell you what is right and what is wrong. They have funded the terrorists group such as Al-Qaida and ISIS to defeat the governers of Islamic countries (who are their enemies) and cause division among Muslims, and then use the same terrorist groups to attack against Islam.

- If ISIS are representing Islam and if you think the Quran orders us to kill infidels, then why don't those wild terrorists attack England and other countries? There are more infidels in non-Islamic countries?

- If ISIS is not supported by Israel, then why don't those terrorists kill Jews? Have you ever heard that a Jew was killed by ISIS? They only kill Muslims and some Christians.

- If ISIS is not supported by America, then why does Obama say they have trained and armed those terrorists?

http://www.shiatv.net...
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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10/22/2015 7:50:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Islam teaches that the bible and torah have been corrupted, how then can you use those books as evidence of your claims.
You are using corrupted works to support your corrupt claims.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
joopy
Posts: 29
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10/22/2015 8:17:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hi,
Just noting some important issues with your arguments.
1. You quote Psalm 91, but you assume incorrectly that it pertains to Jesus. Nowhere does it refer to the one it addresses as the Messiah, the Son of God, Jesus, the Lamb, or any of his other titles. You say that because Satan quoted this Scripture to him, it must pertain to Jesus, at the time of the crucifixion. Not at all. Satan was referring to Jesus's safety in jumping from the Temple, not the crucifixion. Further, Jesus did not deny said scripture, because Satan was in fact right. If Jesus had jumped and trusted God, God would probably have saved him. However, Jesus knew that to jump would be to test God, and so quoted the Scripture forbidding testing God to Satan, who then tempted him once more before leaving him.
In any case, there is no reason to assume that Psalm 91 pertains to Jesus, so your evidence is not valid.
2. You have titled the forum "The Bible Proves that Jesus was not Crucified." Bible quote for you; "And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get." Mark 15:24 - The Bible. Clearly, the Bible does say that Jesus was crucified. Just FYI.
I don't rant, I debate
Julia5678
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10/22/2015 8:19:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 7:50:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
Islam teaches that the bible and torah have been corrupted, how then can you use those books as evidence of your claims.
You are using corrupted works to support your corrupt claims.

It depends on how you define corruption. Yes, Islam says that The Bible was corrupted, but does it mean that the corrupters of the Bible replaced all the vary words of God with their own sentences? No. Corruption can be divided into some tyoes. Such as,
- Adding some words to the original text
- Omitting some words from the original text
- Changing the meaning and translation of original text to corrupt the message
- Misinterpreting the messages.

The Quran, Torah and Gospel were revealed to the prophets. They were infallible. So they preached the message as they had received it without any addition or omission. But who wrote the Bible? They are unknown. But it is obvious that they were not prophets. They were fallible men who wanted to change the message of God.
When we say that the Bible is corrupted, we do not say that the Bible is completely changed. No, we mean that the authors of the Bible has omitted some words of God and wrote their own words instead. For example, the Bible says that Jesus turned water into wine. But in fact, he turned wine into water to prohibit drinking wine. But the author of the Bible replaced "wine" with "water" and when you read that story you think Jesus allowed you to drink wine. It is one of the corruption in the Bible. They changed the teachings of Jesus by replacing two simple words. When we say the Bible is corrupted, we mean such simple as well as important changes in the message of God.
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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10/22/2015 8:45:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 7:50:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
Islam teaches that the bible and torah have been corrupted, how then can you use those books as evidence of your claims.
You are using corrupted works to support your corrupt claims.

That's hilarious. How exactly have they been corrupted then? The Torah in particular is THE most well-preserved religious book there is, and it's exactly as it is now as it was over 3000 years ago.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
Emilrose
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10/22/2015 8:50:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 1:19:40 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM, Emilrose wrote:
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.

Muslims take a lot of abuse, some deserved, some not. Some of them have a need to prove that they are right. They believe that their prophet is the last prophet and that their religion, though only meant for Arabs so they would worship one God, has to take over the world. In fairness, born again Christians want to convert everyone too. The difference is that Muslims, or more or less the Islamists, are willing to kill you if you don't convert. Violence and an unwillingness to accommodate or even compromise is much more prevalent among modern day Muslims than Christians. They don't seem to understand that because of this their religion is very much despised and they can't figure out why.

A lot of it deserved. They may believe that about *their* prophet, but within Judaism (the religion that it attempts to borrow from) he is not even recognized as a prophet as he simply does not fit the standards set--and lived in a period after our time of prophecy had ended.

As for their religion being 'despised', they should take the hint. But then that would require some basic intelligence.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
bulproof
Posts: 25,171
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10/22/2015 8:59:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 8:45:42 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 10/22/2015 7:50:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
Islam teaches that the bible and torah have been corrupted, how then can you use those books as evidence of your claims.
You are using corrupted works to support your corrupt claims.

That's hilarious. How exactly have they been corrupted then? The Torah in particular is THE most well-preserved religious book there is, and it's exactly as it is now as it was over 3000 years ago.

Why are you asking me?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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10/22/2015 9:05:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/22/2015 1:30:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/22/2015 12:54:35 AM, Emilrose wrote:
How exactly is Islam a relevant source on *how* he *supposedly* died? Given that there was virtually no connection between Muslims, Jews or indeed the early Christians at that time. Islam was not established as a religion until 600 years after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish Talmud gives the most reliable non-Christian account of his death--see Sanhedrin 43a.

How is something written at least 150 years after his death anything but potentially marginally more reliable even if this Yeshu is indeed the same person? Whether it is 150 years or 600, it can still only be supposition given the state of the world at that time. Seven or more generations is far too long for anything approaching historical reliability.

There's a significant difference between 150 years and 600, 450 years in case you didn't know ;) You appear to overlook the other point I made about Judaism and Christianity being *more* connected at that point in history. Once again, both Jews and the early Christians knew of him.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com...

I can read the actual Talmud, thanks.

"The key question that arises involves the origin of these rabbinic references. The value of these passages would be greatly enhanced if they originated from contemporaries of Jesus who were eyewitnesses of the events they were reporting. This would be true even though they presented the side of Jesus' opponents. On several occasions, however, aspects of these accounts seem to be due less to eyewitness reports than to later Jewish intereaction with the teachings and claims of the early church.

It seems to me that the passage about the execution of Jesus (b. Sanhedrin 43a) derives not necessarily from the actual events but from Jewish and Christian dialogue & polemics. Notice that in the Christian Gospels, Jesus is given a hasty and highly illegal trial in the middle of the night in which false witnesses testify against him. In the Jewish response to the Christian story, Jesus is given a full forty day period in which witnesses could have stepped forward to defend him."

--- Robert Stein

Again, this is totally irrelevant to me and I have virtually no interest in learning about it, so it was unecessary to quote that. The 'key point' is not about the origins of Christianity, but if that there is enough reference to assert that he was executed and that he was very much present at that time of that. Personally I do not see how a human being cannot be there physically (which is what the OP is essentially arguing) while being killed--it is simply not plausible.

They start off by using two Tanakh (OT) accounts, but I don't necessarily believe in those either. I may have been brought up in a religious household and have good knowledge of the Jewish faith and its history, but I consider myself an agnostic. I'm not arguing for religion here but am simply highlighing two flaws within her thread--one that Islam does not have the credence or indeed information to conclude how he died or in what spiritual context, and that what she's saying is not realistically possible anyway.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'