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talmid
Posts: 59
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10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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10/23/2015 4:09:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Why, if God wanted Jewish men circumcised, did he create men with a foreskin on their penis?
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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10/23/2015 4:11:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

http://www.debate.org...
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/23/2015 4:21:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 4:09:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Why, if God wanted Jewish men circumcised, did he create men with a foreskin on their penis?

Excellent question. There was a Roman governor named Turnus Rufus who asked this very question to Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva said: "Because the Almighty didn"t give commandments to the Jewish People for any reason but to improve ourselves with them"
We circumcise to enter the covenant of G-d. It is for us to improve ourselves, not because G-d needs us to circumcise. In life, we strive to become better. If we are born like angels, there is no challenge. G-d wants us to improve, and so He created us with foreskins.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/23/2015 4:40:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online.

This sites head moderator happens to be a Jew. Hi.... and the site actually has a decent number of Jewish members, several of which happen to be some of the sites best debaters (Whiteflame and Bluesteel come to mind just off the top of my head)... To be fair to your point though, there aren't a lot of Jews who frequent the religion forum however.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Feel free to send me a message any time if you have any questions about the sites rules or anything else.
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talmid
Posts: 59
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10/23/2015 5:11:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 4:40:50 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online.

This sites head moderator happens to be a Jew. Hi.... and the site actually has a decent number of Jewish members, several of which happen to be some of the sites best debaters (Whiteflame and Bluesteel come to mind just off the top of my head)... To be fair to your point though, there aren't a lot of Jews who frequent the religion forum however.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Feel free to send me a message any time if you have any questions about the sites rules or anything else.

There is a great difference between a Reform Jew and an Orthodox Jew.
Also from what I've seen, you appear to be an atheist, which means you must have theological questions. Care to ask?
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/23/2015 5:31:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:11:58 AM, talmid wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:40:50 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online.

This sites head moderator happens to be a Jew. Hi.... and the site actually has a decent number of Jewish members, several of which happen to be some of the sites best debaters (Whiteflame and Bluesteel come to mind just off the top of my head)... To be fair to your point though, there aren't a lot of Jews who frequent the religion forum however.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Feel free to send me a message any time if you have any questions about the sites rules or anything else.

There is a great difference between a Reform Jew and an Orthodox Jew.

I agree with you, though this distinction is only important as it pertains to the actual practice of Judaism, not necessarily with regards to knowledge about it... and your assumption is unfounded as it relates to me. I grew up as an orthodox Jew in an orthodox community, and while I am no longer religious I have (assuming your profile is accurate and you are 15 years old) a greater number of years of formal Jewish religious education (from orthodox day schools and yeshivas) behind me than you do. That's not to say you don't have anything to potentially teach me (as I have been outside of Jewish religious education for awhile now) only that your assumption is entirely incorrect (at least as it relates to me - I don't know the backgrounds of all the other Jews on the site, though I know most aren't orthodox or particularly religious).

Also from what I've seen, you appear to be an atheist, which means you must have theological questions. Care to ask?

I'm not an atheist, I'm an apatheist... not that it matters... and it wasn't my intent to highjack your thread. Welcome to DDO. Enjoy the site. Contact me via PM if you ever have any questions.
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talmid
Posts: 59
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10/23/2015 5:39:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
@airmax1227
There is an epidemic among the Jewish nation, and it is called blind faith. The concept of blind faith came from religions like Christianity and Islam because they knew they couldn't prove anything. In yeshivos, they (unfortunately) assume that all of the students have perfect faith in G-d. Today things are different and it doesn't work that way anymore. People have questions. They never bother to prove Judaism is true, and so people go astray. That is the difference between you and me. You were told to believe (even though it is not said even once in the Tanach that you should believe in G-d, rather it says "you should KNOW that I am Hashem your G-d), I was told to know. It's very late where I live and I have to go to sleep now. I look forward to seeing your questions upon awakening. Hopefully I'll be able to answer them all before Shabbat. Here is a foretaste of what I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com...
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/23/2015 6:28:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:39:23 AM, talmid wrote:
@airmax1227
There is an epidemic among the Jewish nation, and it is called blind faith. The concept of blind faith came from religions like Christianity and Islam because they knew they couldn't prove anything. In yeshivos, they (unfortunately) assume that all of the students have perfect faith in G-d. Today things are different and it doesn't work that way anymore. People have questions. They never bother to prove Judaism is true, and so people go astray. That is the difference between you and me. You were told to believe (even though it is not said even once in the Tanach that you should believe in G-d, rather it says "you should KNOW that I am Hashem your G-d), I was told to know. It's very late where I live and I have to go to sleep now. I look forward to seeing your questions upon awakening. Hopefully I'll be able to answer them all before Shabbat. Here is a foretaste of what I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com...

Your post, yet again, makes assumptions that are baseless and entirely unnecessary. But that aside, I'm not sure what your post is in reply to exactly. If you are making the case that since I'm not an orthodox Jew then X (X being the conclusions you've drawn due to the assumptions you've made), then you seem to already be going down a path of mere preaching, which I'd caution you against in the context of this website. In other words, I know very well the arguments you are going to make, (I'm very familiar with them, and even specifically the lectures by Rabbi Mizrachi. I personally think Lawrence Kelemen does a better job, but that's another discussion.) I've also been taught them, and I've been trained to debate them from both sides - which I have no interest in doing. Simply telling me that your background lends itself towards a greater faith than mine (a background of which you know almost nothing about - and an assertion that's largely pointless in any case) with cliche' statements like "that's the difference between you and me", specifically leads itself away from intellectual honesty, and again, towards mere preaching, something which I believe has almost no value and is something worth avoiding.

I think there is some of what you say above that is true, and some of what you say that is false due to your generalization. But mostly, it's a response to either statements that were never made, or assumptions that you have no reason to make, and rather something you want to assert simply for the sake of asserting it. If you want to assert various aspects of some kind of Jewish theological intellectualism, that's fine (and I look forward to reading it), but posting a non sequitur in a semi-response to me isn't the ideal place to get started.

With that said, I hope that people ask you questions about Judaism, and I look forward to reading your answers.

Have a good shabbat.

Lyla tov.
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dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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10/23/2015 10:27:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 4:21:59 AM, talmid wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:09:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Why, if God wanted Jewish men circumcised, did he create men with a foreskin on their penis?

Excellent question. There was a Roman governor named Turnus Rufus who asked this very question to Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva said: "Because the Almighty didn"t give commandments to the Jewish People for any reason but to improve ourselves with them"
We circumcise to enter the covenant of G-d. It is for us to improve ourselves, not because G-d needs us to circumcise. In life, we strive to become better. If we are born like angels, there is no challenge. G-d wants us to improve, and so He created us with foreskins.

This is an example of what is called an ad hoc rescue, a fallacious debating tactic. Your just so story implies that God made humans less than perfect in order to "improve" themselves. Yet you fail to explain how circumcision is an improvement. Whilst there may be some slight health benefit in circumcising boys in times past, there is no consensus that is is a necessary procedure today and neither is there a formal recommendation for it from most medical organizations in advanced countries.

http://www.intactamerica.org...

When you speak to most theists they usually point to the awesome complexity and apparent design of the human body as evidence for a deity. Then when a flaw is pointed out, if indeed it is a flaw, they immediately have to come up with a rationalization to explain it away. This is exactly what you have done with your ad hoc rescue.

You might as well argue that we should have been born with two heads so that we could cut off one to "improve" ourselves. Yours is a just so rationalization for an ancient cultural practice (which may then have offered some health benefit) and nothing more. At some stage the Jewish priests must have gotten into the act to suggest that it pleases God to have boys circumcised. And so it goes.
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/23/2015 8:21:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@dee-em Your entire ad-hominem attack on my intelligence rant unfortunately comes from ignorance. You clearly have no idea what the commandment of circumcision is. Allow me to explain so that it is more clear.

Brit milah (covenant [of] circumcision) stands as a covenant between G-d and Israel. that G-d is our god and Israel is His nation. G-d made this covenant with Abraham many years ago. The sign of the covenant was removing the foreskin of baby boys when they become 8 days old. If someone does not enter the covenant, then he is not considered a part of the nation of G-d. When removing the foreskin, you become a part of the nation of G-d.
You asked a silly question. "If G-d wanted us circumcised, why did He create us with foreskins?" I answered that it is to improve ourselves (e.x to enter the covenant). Obviously you can't be born into an covenant, which is why your question is silly.
The sign of the covenant is removing the foreskin. Not removing a second head, which makes that argument completely irrelevant. I don't think you understand what a covenant is. I can take a pillar of stone, and make an inscription on it, and say "This is a covenant that there is peace between you and me. If the stone is destroyed, we are no longer allies." If you destroy a pillar that isn't the one with the inscription, it makes no difference. G-d chose circumcision as His stone, not cutting off a second head. I won't be able to reply until Saturday night (because of Shabbat.)

@airmax1227 If you have seen the Torah been proven, why go astray? Something is obviously bothering you, and I ask you to tell me. My job here is to clarify Judaism.

Just a disclaimer, I am NOT here to convert ANYONE to Judaism. It is against Judaism to seek converts. Although we welcome converts, we do not crave them, this is why the Jewish nation is so small. My only intention is for the gentiles who view this thread to become righteous gentiles (Noahidists), which is the only way for you to earn a share in the World to Come. It's very easy to do, just keep seven simple rules (which you probably keep half of without even knowing, that's how easy they are.)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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10/23/2015 9:41:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 8:21:34 PM, talmid wrote:
@dee-em Your entire ad-hominem attack on my intelligence rant unfortunately comes from ignorance.

Save that quote. If you stay in the religion section, you'll be using it a lot. It isn't ignorance though, closer to intentional malicious straw-men.

Welcome to DDO.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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10/24/2015 3:45:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:39:23 AM, talmid wrote:
@airmax1227
There is an epidemic among the Jewish nation, and it is called blind faith. The concept of blind faith came from religions like Christianity and Islam because they knew they couldn't prove anything. In yeshivos, they (unfortunately) assume that all of the students have perfect faith in G-d. Today things are different and it doesn't work that way anymore. People have questions. They never bother to prove Judaism is true, and so people go astray. That is the difference between you and me. You were told to believe (even though it is not said even once in the Tanach that you should believe in G-d, rather it says "you should KNOW that I am Hashem your G-d), I was told to know. It's very late where I live and I have to go to sleep now. I look forward to seeing your questions upon awakening. Hopefully I'll be able to answer them all before Shabbat. Here is a foretaste of what I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com...

lol you dont have to speak for christians and muslims we are here too to speak for ourselves... "blind faith"and following your fathers religion is totally rejected in the Quran in explicit terms in many places... actually you are the jew here beucase you happened to be born in jewish community you are the one who follows blind faith. have you ever tried to check what point of views people got?

anyway here if have my few questions.. as muslims we also believe in Moses (pbuh) and the Torah is a revelation from God... the difference is that we say the "Torah" you holding today is not the same Torah of Moses pbuh.. it has been changed over the ages, that modern scholarship say you dont need to go out of your way to debate muslims about that. can you prove it didnt change? no. because the oldest manuscript of the Old Testament got gap of "1400 years from the time of prophet Moses.. so you are the one who believe its the same "Torah" and for 1400 years it remained the same yep? what did you say about blind faith?

secondly.. why God is chooses the jews and the rest as "goyem" to be an inferior poeple? does that make any sense to you? yeah God is a racist wow... and you had the chance to buy some Quran and to read it like a normal person?
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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10/24/2015 3:56:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:39:23 AM, talmid wrote:

and what a joke the video youtube... tell mizrachi not to speak for muslims they have mouth too. a nice graphic landscapes with a song can only work on jews who came to watch this one to believe what ever it says.. if he have the guts to debate on public debate with muslims he is free to do so... u have plenty muslims and christians debating each other all over the world.
Never fart near dog
seeu46
Posts: 578
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10/24/2015 4:23:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:


Hello talmid. Welcome to the forums.

I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus, who is the Christ.

Take care.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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10/24/2015 4:30:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 4:23:12 AM, seeu46 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:


Hello talmid. Welcome to the forums.

I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus, who is the Christ.


Take care.

well done u delivered the message.
Never fart near dog
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/24/2015 5:17:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 3:56:00 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:39:23 AM, talmid wrote:

and what a joke the video youtube... tell mizrachi not to speak for muslims they have mouth too. a nice graphic landscapes with a song can only work on jews who came to watch this one to believe what ever it says.. if he have the guts to debate on public debate with muslims he is free to do so... u have plenty muslims and christians debating each other all over the world.

I happen to agree with you here. These types of videos are mostly meaningless for anyone that isn't already a believer. Since you mentioned debates though, there is an interesting debate (on utube) between Mizrachi and a Christian intellectual that is mildly entertaining... Though again, it's purpose, like all dogma related ventures is generally only useful to the extent that one wants to reinforce something they already believe.

I personally couldn't care any less about the "truth value" of any religion, so I happen to find these types of things interesting from a sociological, rather than religious, point of view - and I think if taken from that perspective, it's far more interesting and useful.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/24/2015 5:42:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 10:27:07 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:21:59 AM, talmid wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:09:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Why, if God wanted Jewish men circumcised, did he create men with a foreskin on their penis?

Excellent question. There was a Roman governor named Turnus Rufus who asked this very question to Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva said: "Because the Almighty didn"t give commandments to the Jewish People for any reason but to improve ourselves with them"
We circumcise to enter the covenant of G-d. It is for us to improve ourselves, not because G-d needs us to circumcise. In life, we strive to become better. If we are born like angels, there is no challenge. G-d wants us to improve, and so He created us with foreskins.

This is an example of what is called an ad hoc rescue, a fallacious debating tactic. Your just so story implies that God made humans less than perfect in order to "improve" themselves. Yet you fail to explain how circumcision is an improvement. Whilst there may be some slight health benefit in circumcising boys in times past, there is no consensus that is is a necessary procedure today and neither is there a formal recommendation for it from most medical organizations in advanced countries.

http://www.intactamerica.org...

When you speak to most theists they usually point to the awesome complexity and apparent design of the human body as evidence for a deity. Then when a flaw is pointed out, if indeed it is a flaw, they immediately have to come up with a rationalization to explain it away. This is exactly what you have done with your ad hoc rescue.

You might as well argue that we should have been born with two heads so that we could cut off one to "improve" ourselves. Yours is a just so rationalization for an ancient cultural practice (which may then have offered some health benefit) and nothing more. At some stage the Jewish priests must have gotten into the act to suggest that it pleases God to have boys circumcised. And so it goes.

Your point here is obviously correct, and it's entirely non-falsifiable since proving any "truth" to the value of circumcision in the context in which it is being discussed here (the religious imperative), requires actually asking god what he was thinking - and no one is going to be doing that and proving it any time soon. (Though to be fair to the OP, there are assumptions being made for the sake of his assertion that avoid proving what is otherwise required)

With that said, there are probably some interesting philosophical and sociological discussions to be had on this topic, though those seem to be besides the point.

As for the modern health benefits, I've been on the fence about this issue for awhile, but lately I'm leaning more towards the Pro side and I do believe I could debate as Pro (there are health benefits) on the topic and win that debate (The CDC seems to think so for one example)... Though I will agree, as you said, that there is no consensus on the issue.
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dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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10/24/2015 9:09:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 8:21:34 PM, talmid wrote:
@dee-em Your entire ad-hominem attack on my intelligence rant unfortunately comes from ignorance. You clearly have no idea what the commandment of circumcision is. Allow me to explain so that it is more clear.

Well, I fail to see where your accusation of an ad hominem attack comes from. I was refuting your arguments and made no personal attack on you. Perhaps you don't understand what an ad hominem attack is?

Speaking of refuting your arguments, you seem to have made no attempt to directly address anything I have said, instead going off in some completely new directions compared to your first post. In debating terms that is called dropping the argument, which means you have effectively conceded. As such, I won't bother responding to what you wrote below. I could but its not necessary. Suffice to say that you presume to know the mind of God, which you obviously do not and cannot, and 8-day old babies cannot be party to a covenant.

Brit milah (covenant [of] circumcision) stands as a covenant between G-d and Israel. that G-d is our god and Israel is His nation. G-d made this covenant with Abraham many years ago. The sign of the covenant was removing the foreskin of baby boys when they become 8 days old. If someone does not enter the covenant, then he is not considered a part of the nation of G-d. When removing the foreskin, you become a part of the nation of G-d.

You asked a silly question. "If G-d wanted us circumcised, why did He create us with foreskins?" I answered that it is to improve ourselves (e.x to enter the covenant). Obviously you can't be born into an covenant, which is why your question is silly.

The sign of the covenant is removing the foreskin. Not removing a second head, which makes that argument completely irrelevant. I don't think you understand what a covenant is. I can take a pillar of stone, and make an inscription on it, and say "This is a covenant that there is peace between you and me. If the stone is destroyed, we are no longer allies." If you destroy a pillar that isn't the one with the inscription, it makes no difference. G-d chose circumcision as His stone, not cutting off a second head. I won't be able to reply until Saturday night (because of Shabbat.)
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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10/24/2015 9:14:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 5:42:00 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 10:27:07 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:21:59 AM, talmid wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:09:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

Why, if God wanted Jewish men circumcised, did he create men with a foreskin on their penis?

Excellent question. There was a Roman governor named Turnus Rufus who asked this very question to Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva said: "Because the Almighty didn"t give commandments to the Jewish People for any reason but to improve ourselves with them"
We circumcise to enter the covenant of G-d. It is for us to improve ourselves, not because G-d needs us to circumcise. In life, we strive to become better. If we are born like angels, there is no challenge. G-d wants us to improve, and so He created us with foreskins.

This is an example of what is called an ad hoc rescue, a fallacious debating tactic. Your just so story implies that God made humans less than perfect in order to "improve" themselves. Yet you fail to explain how circumcision is an improvement. Whilst there may be some slight health benefit in circumcising boys in times past, there is no consensus that is is a necessary procedure today and neither is there a formal recommendation for it from most medical organizations in advanced countries.

http://www.intactamerica.org...

When you speak to most theists they usually point to the awesome complexity and apparent design of the human body as evidence for a deity. Then when a flaw is pointed out, if indeed it is a flaw, they immediately have to come up with a rationalization to explain it away. This is exactly what you have done with your ad hoc rescue.

You might as well argue that we should have been born with two heads so that we could cut off one to "improve" ourselves. Yours is a just so rationalization for an ancient cultural practice (which may then have offered some health benefit) and nothing more. At some stage the Jewish priests must have gotten into the act to suggest that it pleases God to have boys circumcised. And so it goes.

Your point here is obviously correct, and it's entirely non-falsifiable since proving any "truth" to the value of circumcision in the context in which it is being discussed here (the religious imperative), requires actually asking god what he was thinking - and no one is going to be doing that and proving it any time soon. (Though to be fair to the OP, there are assumptions being made for the sake of his assertion that avoid proving what is otherwise required)

With that said, there are probably some interesting philosophical and sociological discussions to be had on this topic, though those seem to be besides the point.

As for the modern health benefits, I've been on the fence about this issue for awhile, but lately I'm leaning more towards the Pro side and I do believe I could debate as Pro (there are health benefits) on the topic and win that debate (The CDC seems to think so for one example)... Though I will agree, as you said, that there is no consensus on the issue.

As an older uncircumcised male I have an obvious bias to keep it but, I concede that the health aspect was the weakest part of my argument. :-)
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/26/2015 11:30:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What I'm seeing is that you don't understand the value of circumcision. The reason for this is is because you're trying to use it with your limited human understanding. You think that G-d commanded us to do circumcision for health benefits, but that has NOTHING to do with it at all whatsoever. There are some nonkosher foods that are healthy, yet we don't eat it. We circumcise to enter the covenant and for no other reason. Also, the covenant is not being circumcised, but to circumcise your baby. It is a mitzvah that applies to the father (meaning the father is obligated to circumcise his son). If the father did not circumcise his son, it becomes the job of the Beit Din (Government). If the government fails to do so, it is the person's obligation to do it to himself.

Something that I don't like is that there are many people who are arguing things that are completely irrelevant to this thread. This was made for people to ask me questions, not because I'm trying to convert you but for the sake of al kiddush hashem and hopefully for you to observe the seven Noahide laws. Also keep in mind that I'm not asking anyone to circumcise themselves. Circumcision is a covenant between G-d and Israel, nobody else.
shalal12
Posts: 303
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10/27/2015 5:15:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

What do you think Moses (pbuh) says when Zionists kill innocent children and call themselves Jews?
Have they shown their beautiful nuclear bombs to Moses?
Enjoy DDO. :0)
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/27/2015 8:24:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/27/2015 5:15:29 PM, shalal12 wrote:
What do you think Moses (pbuh) says when Zionists kill innocent children and call themselves Jews?
Have they shown their beautiful nuclear bombs to Moses?
Enjoy DDO. :0)

I don't understand your question. Can you please elaborate?
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/28/2015 4:18:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 4:23:12 AM, seeu46 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:


Hello talmid. Welcome to the forums.

I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus, who is the Christ.


Take care.

Since nobody here is asking any substantial questions I'll just derive a question from this.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?
To make it simple, he didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies (ushering an era of peace and prosperity, rebuilding the Holy Temple, etc) besides for the ones that the Church invented. If you aren't satisfied with this I have a lot more dirt on Christianity that I'm more than happy to share. This includes:
- logical fallacies
- immorality
- errors in the texts

At he end of the day we can conclude that Jesus is NOT your Lord and Savior.
seeu46
Posts: 578
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10/28/2015 12:28:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:18:26 AM, talmid wrote:
At 10/24/2015 4:23:12 AM, seeu46 wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:


Hello talmid. Welcome to the forums.

I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus, who is the Christ.


Take care.

Since nobody here is asking any substantial questions I'll just derive a question from this.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?
To make it simple, he didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies (ushering an era of peace and prosperity, rebuilding the Holy Temple, etc) besides for the ones that the Church invented. If you aren't satisfied with this I have a lot more dirt on Christianity that I'm more than happy to share. This includes:
- logical fallacies
- immorality
- errors in the texts

At he end of the day we can conclude that Jesus is NOT your Lord and Savior.

I thank you for responding brother. But as a follower of this Jewish teacher and believer in him. I can tell you for certain he is the Lord and Savior of my life. But I would love to read about your logical fallacies, immorality, and errors in the texts. As then, maybe you or I may shed some light on these matters.

Hope to hear from you and blessings be to you, from the God of Israel. As I can say that with some confidence that 'he' is indeed my God and your God.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/28/2015 5:38:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:52:29 AM, talmid wrote:
I'm sure none of you have ever had a debate with a Jew before, as they are uncommon online. Here is a rare opportunity for you. I am asking atheists, Christians, Muslims and all other kinds of people to ask me your questions, paradoxes, and other things like that. Hopefully I will be able to answer your questions. Obviously, this will lead to arguments, and so it is only appropriate for this to be on a debate site.

P.S, I am new here. If someone would be kind enough to tell me the rules on this site, it would be highly appreciated.

I have had many a discussion with Jews, as part of my ministry in the past, and have without exception found them to be as stiff-necked and closed minded to Jehovah's words as they were when Israel was first abandoned by their God, long before Christ

They have ignored every prophet sent to them, including Jehovah's own son,and continue to do so, to their loss.

Luke 20:9-20American Standard Version (ASV)

9 And he began to speak unto the people this parable: A man planted a vineyard, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country for a long time.

10 And at the season he sent unto the husbandmen a servant, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.

11 And he sent yet another servant: and him also they beat, and handled him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12 And he sent yet a third: and him also they wounded, and cast him forth.

13 And the lord of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; it may be they will reverence him.

14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned one with another, saying, This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

17 But he looked upon them, and said, What then is this that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner?

18 Every one that falleth on that stone shall be broken to pieces; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.

19 And the scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him in that very hour; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he spake this parable against them.

20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, who feigned themselves to be righteous, that they might take hold of his speech, so as to deliver him up to the rule and to the authority of the governor.

To this day they still believe they are God's chosen people against all the scriptural evidence.

However, verse 16 of the above, was fulfilled when the few Faithful Jews were formed into a new people who knew themselves to be the "Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), and became the rootstock of the new vine, which became known as the Christian Congregation.

Jehovah did not forsake all of Israel, but took the faithful with his son into the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33. Romans chapter 11.

Unfortunately that group proved equally unfaithful after the last of the Apostles died, and this time period necessitated the formation of a new group Romans chapter 11.

That new group, after the culmination of their training becamse the JWs.
Rami
Posts: 431
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10/28/2015 9:32:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Talmid: I am reasonably sure there are way more Jews on this site. The reality is, most of us don't out we're Jewish. And I'd bet many Jews who don't put out that information are Orthodox, like me. Anyways, it's nice to have a open Jew on this website.
Rami
Posts: 431
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10/28/2015 11:46:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tamid: I don't think you should be debating Christians. If you know the story of the Ramban, he only entered the debate because of pressure from the king. After he won, he was forced to leave Spain to Yerushalim because angry peasants might have attacked him.
talmid
Posts: 59
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10/29/2015 12:02:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 12:28:34 PM, seeu46 wrote:
I thank you for responding brother. But as a follower of this Jewish teacher and believer in him. I can tell you for certain he is the Lord and Savior of my life. But I would love to read about your logical fallacies, immorality, and errors in the texts. As then, maybe you or I may shed some light on these matters.

Hope to hear from you and blessings be to you, from the God of Israel. As I can say that with some confidence that 'he' is indeed my God and your God.

I am so glad to have found a Christian with a rational open mind. G-d bless you and your offspring for a thousand generations. I will now proceed to do as you asked as respectfully as possible.

- To begin with, the New Testament has been corrupted over the generations. There are hundreds of thousands of versions of the New Testament, therefore none can be relied on since we can't compare them to the original text and decide whether it is an accurate translation. What is it like? It is like throwing a real diamond into a pile of fake diamonds. The diamond loses all of its value. Until you show me the original manuscripts, it is silly to debate whether or not this religion is reliable since we don't know if this is even the original religion.

- Jesus supposedly died for the sins of humanity. This is impossible, for it is the Law of G-d that NO man shall die for the sins of another man. The Bible says this in three places. See Jeremiah 31:30. Deuteronomy 24:16, and Ezekiel 18:20.

- It is not fair that someone should be able to be a murderer and then ask Jesus for forgiveness and not be held accountable. In Judaism, all crimes that are committed against fellow men cannot be forgiven unless you ask the person you harmed for forgiveness. It is not logical for G-d to forgive you for the crimes you did against someone else.

- The New Testament is full of errors from cover to cover. Here are some examples:
1. Matthew 1:8 calls Jehoram the father of Uzziah. This is a lie. Jehoram begot Ahaziah who begot Joash who begot Amaziah who begot Uzziah. Matthew skipped 3 generations, a clear error.
2. Revelation 7 begins to list the tribes of Israel, but it leaves out Dan. A clear error
3. Acts 7:16 says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were buried in Shechem. This is a lie, they were buried in Hebron.
These three errors alone show that this could not be the word of G-d, since G-d does not make mistakes. Even if it did come originally from G-d, these errors show that it must have been corrupted by humans, who do make mistakes.

If you are satisfied with this answer, let me know. If not, I have a lot more dirt on Christianity.

P:S. PLEASE, if I did convince you that Christianity is a false religion, do NOT convert to Judaism. I ask you this for your own good. G-d judges Jews much stricter than He does gentiles, because He expects more from Jews. If you become a Jew, expect a lot more Hell then there is in store for you. You can be a righteous gentile by observing the seven Noahide laws, and conversion to Judaism is not necessary to merit an afterlife. Although the gentile heaven is not close to as great as the Jewish heaven, it is better than nothing. Conversion to Judaism is very risky, for if you sin, you will be judged harshly.