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Theism for the Intelligent?

GrittyWorm
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10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians
v3nesl
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10/23/2015 4:06:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

These results please me :-)

Certainly from a historical perspective, the super-intelligent were overwhelmingly theists. This idea that science is some advancement from the dark ages of religion is most definitely a myth.

The truth is probably almost exactly the opposite - science is a theistic concept. It is the monotheists who figured that a reliable God would have made reliable laws of nature and set out to catalog them. Science is a triumph over the arbitrary pagan gods, not a triumph over theism.
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Chaosism
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10/23/2015 4:23:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

There are some really dumb and really smart people on both sides. Both of those first two generalized claims mentioned are without merit. Even very intelligent people can be fooled into outlandish beliefs and taken in by scams. That's human nature. Intelligence is multidimensional, and it isn't exactly the same with any two given people.

I feel that this article is pretty meaningless with respect to the topic. If we asked the people with the lowest IQ's on the planet (who are still capable of communication) and they happen to be mostly religious, does that indicate anything about religious people in general? Nope.
GrittyWorm
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10/23/2015 5:09:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 4:23:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

There are some really dumb and really smart people on both sides. Both of those first two generalized claims mentioned are without merit. Even very intelligent people can be fooled into outlandish beliefs and taken in by scams. That's human nature. Intelligence is multidimensional, and it isn't exactly the same with any two given people.

I feel that this article is pretty meaningless with respect to the topic. If we asked the people with the lowest IQ's on the planet (who are still capable of communication) and they happen to be mostly religious, does that indicate anything about religious people in general? Nope.

Is Atheism a scam?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,659
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10/23/2015 5:15:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:09:59 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:23:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

There are some really dumb and really smart people on both sides. Both of those first two generalized claims mentioned are without merit. Even very intelligent people can be fooled into outlandish beliefs and taken in by scams. That's human nature. Intelligence is multidimensional, and it isn't exactly the same with any two given people.

I feel that this article is pretty meaningless with respect to the topic. If we asked the people with the lowest IQ's on the planet (who are still capable of communication) and they happen to be mostly religious, does that indicate anything about religious people in general? Nope.

Is Atheism a scam?

How can the rejection of a belief be a scam? Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly.

If you mean like some kind of dishonest social or political structure based on atheism, I'm sure those exist just the same as religious ones exist. That's just humans using something to exploit other humans.
RuvDraba
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10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.

But since then the religions of Europe have lost authority due to a general objective failure of their dogmas, and general knowledge of that failure. There are Protestant faiths apologising to Darwin for being wrong while he was right [http://www.telegraph.co.uk...]; the Catholic faith has tacitly acknowledged that the literal teaching of Genesis is wrong [http://www.independent.co.uk...].

That's a very different situation to 16th century Europe, where religion had the power to persecute you for contesting its dogma at all.

Moreover, faith itself has changed. The gods people believe in are not the gods of five centuries ago. People believe less in dogmatic creation, less in the punitivism and divine wrath upheld almost universally in the Middle Ages. In the developed world, people of faith attend church less, believe less in prayer, miracles, the magic of worship, millennialism, religious supremacism and dogmatic literalism. [http://www.churchleaders.com...] [http://www.pewforum.org...]

The smart are less religious, but the religious too, have become less religious as they've grown smarter.
v3nesl
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10/23/2015 6:11:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples,

'Cherry picked", lol? The 10 smartest people on the planet?

it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries,

So I'll call cherry picking here.

including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

So is it education or indoctrination?


But since then the religions of Europe have lost authority due to a general objective failure of their dogmas, and general knowledge of that failure. There are Protestant faiths apologising to Darwin for being wrong while he was right

So maybe Protestant denominations are failing because they apologize to Darwin? Hey, if we're just talking statistical correlations here... The growing forms of Christianity in our day are not apologizing to Darwin.

That's a very different situation to 16th century Europe, where religion had the power to persecute you for contesting its dogma at all.


And today one is persecuted for not endorsing the status quo. It's of course not physical persecution, but it's very real.

Moreover, faith itself has changed. The gods people believe in are not the gods of five centuries ago. People believe less in dogmatic creation, less in the punitivism and divine wrath upheld almost universally in the Middle Ages.

Well, there's some merit to this, but I'm not sure it's not a matter of emphasis.

In the developed world,

Well, certainly true of western Europe and that general strain (which would include Australia) but I don't think it's true of the developing world, especially Asia. And the European strain is clearly in decline. We always tend to think of our people as the civilized one, but the sun long since set on the British empire. So I'm not sure that you want to base "advanced thinking" on a culture that's in the nursing home.


The smart are less religious, but the religious too, have become less religious as they've grown smarter.

lol. So your conclusion is to simply contradict the data in question. Data and objective thinking, that's great stuff when it fits your preconceived notions, eh?
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popculturepooka
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10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.


I find it interesting how you attribute theists' beliefs entirely or mostly to cultural influence back then, but don't make the same inference today.

Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious. There's a huge cultural influence there on academics. I know this having been it for a while in college in philosophy departments, and my sister is a clinical psychologist and she says the same in her field. I've heard many reports from people that they do feel a sort of pressure to conform in that realm. I remember reading a paper by Lawrence Bonjour (professional philosopher) on materialism/physicalism and the cultural/social influence of that philosophy in academia. He said he got the feeling that many people were physicalists merely because the smartest people they know were physicallists and non-physicalism is treated as a joke; they didn't actually have good argumetns for it.
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RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 6:11:35 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples,

'Cherry picked", lol? The 10 smartest people on the planet?

Really? Based on what records, assessed how? Collected how?

There is no link in the Examiner article to any peer-reviewed scientific study. But there are links to all kinds of dubious sites -- like MostExtreme.org [http://mostextreme.org...] which publishes purported records, but not its methodology for collecting and validating them.

Moreover, some of the IQ tests mentioned seem dubious themselves. One talks about an 'Advanced' IQ test I'd never heard of, with thirteen dimensions, including a dimension for 'Spiritual'. I tried to find any mention of this in scientific literature, and failed. However more digging turned it up on the rather luridly-produced site superbrains.org [http://superbrains.org...], published by a private interest that fails to identify itself, or cite scientific models for its test (but you can pay $100 to be tested.)

But there, the dimension 'Spiritual' was described as: heightened states of consciousness and use of spiritual resources to solve problems.

And there was another dimension called 'Bodily', which I doubt Stephen Hawking would excel at.

Is this the IQ test supposed to have been used for the source data?

I can't say, but regardless, the article's sourcing methodology is all the things science shouldn't be: opaque, biased, subjective, and not submitted to best-practice external review.

So, cherry-picked to support a point, rather than objectively conducted to investigate a question.

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.
RuvDraba
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10/23/2015 6:48:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.


I find it interesting how you attribute theists' beliefs entirely or mostly to cultural influence back then, but don't make the same inference today.

Actually, I did. Culturally, we have better information, produced independently, that's more accessible, and hence produces greater scrutiny and higher accountability for religious claims. Hence, the collapse of religious dogmatic authority.

Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious.
Data please.
v3nesl
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10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.
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dhardage
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10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?
v3nesl
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10/23/2015 7:43:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?

You believe nature does things in the wild that cannot be reproduced in the lab. You claim life emerged and blossomed spontaneously, and are ok with the fact that no such behavior can be observed or reproduced.
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RuvDraba
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10/23/2015 7:46:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

It's not just the methodology pointing to bad data, but the interpretation. It has to fit the data, and independently account for discrepancies, not support a prejudice and ignore discrepancies.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls.
I agree with that, V. Critical thought shouldn't be subject to popularity.

In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy.
That's been a recurrent view since the ancient Greeks, where one philosopher argued that if people got more literate, their memories would suffer. :)

I think the evidence runs the other way, V. People are routinely making decisions today that mediaeval peasants wouldn't know how to make.

Nothwithstanding, you're right that the religious growth is chiefly in fundamentalism, literalism and religious conservatism, but that growth isn't coming at the expense of irreligion -- it's more coming from religious moderates. So it seems that the spectrum of religiosity may be collapsing more toward literalist religious conservatism, and nonbelief.

That might be welcome news for millennialists awaiting an apocalypse, but for secularists like myself it's concerning.
dhardage
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10/23/2015 7:59:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:43:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?

You believe nature does things in the wild that cannot be reproduced in the lab. You claim life emerged and blossomed spontaneously, and are ok with the fact that no such behavior can be observed or reproduced.

Current research has suggested different ways it could happen. Complex organic molecules have been found on comets. There are a number of possibilities that have been proposed but we don't know for sure, we may never know for sure due to the extreme amount of time between life's origin and now. That's not magic.

And what do you believe? Do you accept creationism as the source of life? What kind of 'magic' do you believe in that you can observe in the laboratory? Who was there to see how it was done and write it down?
Illegalcombatant
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10/24/2015 9:59:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

The important thing is looking at various propositions and applying critical reasoning and stuff like that.

Don't get too caught up on what the smart people believe, yesterdays most smart people are christians are todays most smarts are atheists are tomorrows most smart believe in the flying spaghetti monster.

Your commitment is to the truth right ? which means a commitment to reason, which means no authority can say well even if it conflicts with reason you should still accept it..............right ?

Or you could just be a religious dogmatist who just assumes my religious beliefs are true and will justify then by any means necessary...........in which case go f*ck yourself.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GrittyWorm
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10/24/2015 5:12:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:59:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:43:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?

You believe nature does things in the wild that cannot be reproduced in the lab. You claim life emerged and blossomed spontaneously, and are ok with the fact that no such behavior can be observed or reproduced.

Current research has suggested different ways it could happen. Complex organic molecules have been found on comets. There are a number of possibilities that have been proposed but we don't know for sure, we may never know for sure due to the extreme amount of time between life's origin and now. That's not magic.

And what do you believe? Do you accept creationism as the source of life? What kind of 'magic' do you believe in that you can observe in the laboratory? Who was there to see how it was done and write it down?

There is no such thing as magic. There is knowledge and power. Just because you don't have the knowledge of someone from somewhere else, that doesn't make them magic. 1,000 years ago tv's, gps, cell phones, airplanes, lighters, air conditioners, etc would have seemed "magic". It is amusing when Atheists refer to knowledge and power as magic. It's the optimal version of arrogance to cross your arms, refute that anyone could do things that humans cannot do, and stomp off with a pout.
GrittyWorm
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10/25/2015 3:20:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 5:15:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:09:59 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:23:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

There are some really dumb and really smart people on both sides. Both of those first two generalized claims mentioned are without merit. Even very intelligent people can be fooled into outlandish beliefs and taken in by scams. That's human nature. Intelligence is multidimensional, and it isn't exactly the same with any two given people.

I feel that this article is pretty meaningless with respect to the topic. If we asked the people with the lowest IQ's on the planet (who are still capable of communication) and they happen to be mostly religious, does that indicate anything about religious people in general? Nope.

Is Atheism a scam?

How can the rejection of a belief be a scam? Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly.

If you mean like some kind of dishonest social or political structure based on atheism, I'm sure those exist just the same as religious ones exist. That's just humans using something to exploit other humans.

The basis of the "lack of belief" is based off of politically fueled propoganda, findings influenced by money, unproven theories, and bad science. So the lack of belief has been sold to Atheists under false pretenses. Atheism is a bught scam. Richard Dawkins, for example, has made hundreds of millions of dollars by using Atheistic ideology, therefore every statement he makes is fueled on some level by what "is working", by what foots the bill at the end of the day. He is not so much different than a false televangelist. They both are selling ideology to make millions whether they believe it deeply or even care or not. It's "what sells books"? "What sounds good to my audience". "What protects my interests"?
bulproof
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10/25/2015 3:45:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.


I find it interesting how you attribute theists' beliefs entirely or mostly to cultural influence back then, but don't make the same inference today.

Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious. There's a huge cultural influence there on academics. I know this having been it for a while in college in philosophy departments, and my sister is a clinical psychologist and she says the same in her field. I've heard many reports from people that they do feel a sort of pressure to conform in that realm. I remember reading a paper by Lawrence Bonjour (professional philosopher) on materialism/physicalism and the cultural/social influence of that philosophy in academia. He said he got the feeling that many people were physicalists merely because the smartest people they know were physicallists and non-physicalism is treated as a joke; they didn't actually have good argumetns for it.

He "got the feeling", well how could we possibly argue with that.
I know, I get the feeling he's talking through his arse.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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10/25/2015 3:53:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/25/2015 3:20:34 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:15:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:09:59 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/23/2015 4:23:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

There are some really dumb and really smart people on both sides. Both of those first two generalized claims mentioned are without merit. Even very intelligent people can be fooled into outlandish beliefs and taken in by scams. That's human nature. Intelligence is multidimensional, and it isn't exactly the same with any two given people.

I feel that this article is pretty meaningless with respect to the topic. If we asked the people with the lowest IQ's on the planet (who are still capable of communication) and they happen to be mostly religious, does that indicate anything about religious people in general? Nope.

Is Atheism a scam?

How can the rejection of a belief be a scam? Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly.

If you mean like some kind of dishonest social or political structure based on atheism, I'm sure those exist just the same as religious ones exist. That's just humans using something to exploit other humans.

The basis of the "lack of belief" is based off of politically fueled propoganda, findings influenced by money, unproven theories, and bad science. So the lack of belief has been sold to Atheists under false pretenses. Atheism is a bught scam. Richard Dawkins, for example, has made hundreds of millions of dollars by using Atheistic ideology, therefore every statement he makes is fueled on some level by what "is working", by what foots the bill at the end of the day. He is not so much different than a false televangelist. They both are selling ideology to make millions whether they believe it deeply or even care or not. It's "what sells books"? "What sounds good to my audience". "What protects my interests"?

The basis of the "lack of belief" is based entirely on the fact that the proponents of the claim that gods exist have never been capable of providing evidence to support their claim.

Fixed that for ya.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/25/2015 3:18:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/25/2015 3:45:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.


I find it interesting how you attribute theists' beliefs entirely or mostly to cultural influence back then, but don't make the same inference today.

Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious. There's a huge cultural influence there on academics. I know this having been it for a while in college in philosophy departments, and my sister is a clinical psychologist and she says the same in her field. I've heard many reports from people that they do feel a sort of pressure to conform in that realm. I remember reading a paper by Lawrence Bonjour (professional philosopher) on materialism/physicalism and the cultural/social influence of that philosophy in academia. He said he got the feeling that many people were physicalists merely because the smartest people they know were physicallists and non-physicalism is treated as a joke; they didn't actually have good argumetns for it.

He "got the feeling", well how could we possibly argue with that.
I know, I get the feeling he's talking through his arse.

Do you ever have anything substantive to say?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/25/2015 5:01:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/25/2015 3:18:06 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/25/2015 3:45:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious. There's a huge cultural influence there on academics. I know this having been it for a while in college in philosophy departments, and my sister is a clinical psychologist and she says the same in her field. I've heard many reports from people that they do feel a sort of pressure to conform in that realm. I remember reading a paper by Lawrence Bonjour (professional philosopher) on materialism/physicalism and the cultural/social influence of that philosophy in academia. He said he got the feeling that many people were physicalists merely because the smartest people they know were physicallists and non-physicalism is treated as a joke; they didn't actually have good argumetns for it.
He "got the feeling", well how could we possibly argue with that.
Do you ever have anything substantive to say?

What Bulproof said was that without independent data, you made a bare assertion.

He's right.

But further, PCP, you ignored my request for data in order to attack Bulproof's character.

Does that mean you've abandoned your assertion?

In any case, while I can't speak of religiosity in the humanities, science has found periodic interest in the religiosity of scientists. For example, a 2007 study appearing in the peer-reviewed Oxford journal Social Problems surveyed the religious opinions of scientists of different fields from among 21 elite US research universities. [http://www.owlnet.rice.edu...] Disciplines surveyed included Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Sociology, Economics, Political Science and Psychology.

Regarding religion in general, only 22.8% believed there's very little truth in any religion; about 73.5% agreed that there are basic truths in many religions; while only 3.4% believed there is the most truth in only one religion.

Regarding religiosity, 31% didn't believe in any god; another 31% said they didn't know if there's a god and think there's no way to find out. 15% said they believe in a god, but have doubts; 9.7% said they believe and have no doubts. About 26% reported a religious service attendance 1-5 times per year.

Does that seem 'overwhelmingly irreligious' to you?'

Over-all the authors found that:

Demographic factors such as age, marital status, and presence of children in the household are the strongest predictors of religious difference among scientists. In particular, religiosity in the home as a child is the most important predictor of present religiosity among this group of scientists.

But that's also true of the population at large, since between 60-70% of Americans inherit the religion they were brought up with.

So not only don't you have data, PCP, you've appealed to ignorance and unsupported opinion to argue what for an is in essence, an unfounded quasi anti-intellectual conspiracy theory.

But why did you form that opinion in the first place?

Is it perhaps that you need to feel that your particular religious views are normative? Does it disturb you when they aren't? Do you find yourself wanting to blame institutions for not teaching what you believe, rather than accepting that others may have good reason not to believe it?

I made the point earlier, PCP: even the religious world itself is less religious than once it was. There's no more reason to believe than ever there was (however much or little that might've been), yet there's vastly more reason to doubt, question and reject what has been traditionally taught.

Why do you find that hard to accept?
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/26/2015 3:07:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 7:59:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:43:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?

You believe nature does things in the wild that cannot be reproduced in the lab. You claim life emerged and blossomed spontaneously, and are ok with the fact that no such behavior can be observed or reproduced.

Current research has suggested different ways it could happen. Complex organic molecules have been found on comets. There are a number of possibilities that have been proposed but we don't know for sure, we may never know for sure due to the extreme amount of time between life's origin and now. That's not magic.

And what do you believe? Do you accept creationism as the source of life? What kind of 'magic' do you believe in that you can observe in the laboratory? Who was there to see how it was done and write it down?

Yeah. I remember astronauts caught with that comet going mach 10000 and took some stool samples. Face palm to myself just for saying that...
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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10/26/2015 3:12:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

That is a sample of 10. Tiny sample. You need a better sample. These 10 people do not represent all smart people.
GrittyWorm
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10/26/2015 3:18:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/26/2015 3:12:35 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

That is a sample of 10. Tiny sample. You need a better sample. These 10 people do not represent all smart people.

Nope they simply represent the top ten. And...the top ten are predominately theist. This at the worst, dismantles the Atheists are smart vs. Stupid theists bs.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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10/26/2015 3:24:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/26/2015 3:18:48 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:12:35 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

That is a sample of 10. Tiny sample. You need a better sample. These 10 people do not represent all smart people.

Nope they simply represent the top ten. And...the top ten are predominately theist. This at the worst, dismantles the Atheists are smart vs. Stupid theists bs.

Actually no. Those are the top 10 who have even been tested.

But is filling in the right circles on some paper test in some room really the best measure of intelligence? What actual discoveries have these people made?

I think the real smartest people are the ones who have actually made great discoveries, like the scientists who made great discoveries.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/26/2015 3:45:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/26/2015 3:24:56 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:18:48 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:12:35 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

That is a sample of 10. Tiny sample. You need a better sample. These 10 people do not represent all smart people.

Nope they simply represent the top ten. And...the top ten are predominately theist. This at the worst, dismantles the Atheists are smart vs. Stupid theists bs.

Actually no. Those are the top 10 who have even been tested.

But is filling in the right circles on some paper test in some room really the best measure of intelligence? What actual discoveries have these people made?

I think the real smartest people are the ones who have actually made great discoveries, like the scientists who made great discoveries.

So if we go get 700,364.3654321 people and it comes out the same ten, then what? How about if all get tested and it's now out of the top 100, 94 are theists? Will that put the sparkle back in it for you? Probably not. But for grins lets take it head on.

The sample size is vast therefore a group at indicator of reality.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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10/26/2015 4:10:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/26/2015 3:45:25 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:24:56 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:18:48 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/26/2015 3:12:35 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"? It's quite a pervasive urban legend, and one which it turns out...is false. Atheism is simply the view of the person unable to comprehend and accept deeper thought.

www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

That is a sample of 10. Tiny sample. You need a better sample. These 10 people do not represent all smart people.

Nope they simply represent the top ten. And...the top ten are predominately theist. This at the worst, dismantles the Atheists are smart vs. Stupid theists bs.

Actually no. Those are the top 10 who have even been tested.

But is filling in the right circles on some paper test in some room really the best measure of intelligence? What actual discoveries have these people made?

I think the real smartest people are the ones who have actually made great discoveries, like the scientists who made great discoveries.

So if we go get 700,364.3654321 people and it comes out the same ten, then what? How about if all get tested and it's now out of the top 100, 94 are theists? Will that put the sparkle back in it for you? Probably not. But for grins lets take it head on.

The sample size is vast therefore a group at indicator of reality.

you can't have .3654321 people. What is that? The leg?

I would not sample just the top 10. Statistically, the margin of error is very high once you go below 100 in a sample. That is became with too few people we cannot be sure they actually represent the entire population of smart people.

And, you don't actually know for sure, these are the very smartest people.

And how do we know for sure this test is the best measure of intelligence? If these are really the smartest people then where are their discoveries?
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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10/26/2015 4:48:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/25/2015 3:18:06 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/25/2015 3:45:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:38:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/23/2015 5:36:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/23/2015 3:19:18 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Have you ever heard the claim "all smart people are atheists", or maybe its inverse: "people who believe in God are dumb"?

Whatever might be demonstrated by cherry-picked examples, it remains true that there's a statistically significant correlation between intelligence and nontheism in something like 137 countries, including the most educated. [http://www.sciencedirect.com...].

However there are also links between poverty, low socio-economic development and religiosity, so it's complex. [http://www.gallup.com...] There are clearly cultural factors at work here too.

In 16th century Europe, for example virtually all of the brightest (and dumbest) people had religious beliefs, simply because that was the prevailing cultural influence of the time.


I find it interesting how you attribute theists' beliefs entirely or mostly to cultural influence back then, but don't make the same inference today.

Secular academia is overwhelmingly non-religious. There's a huge cultural influence there on academics. I know this having been it for a while in college in philosophy departments, and my sister is a clinical psychologist and she says the same in her field. I've heard many reports from people that they do feel a sort of pressure to conform in that realm. I remember reading a paper by Lawrence Bonjour (professional philosopher) on materialism/physicalism and the cultural/social influence of that philosophy in academia. He said he got the feeling that many people were physicalists merely because the smartest people they know were physicallists and non-physicalism is treated as a joke; they didn't actually have good argumetns for it.

He "got the feeling", well how could we possibly argue with that.
I know, I get the feeling he's talking through his arse.

Do you ever have anything substantive to say?
The depth of explanatory power in those two lines is obviously beyond your ability to comprehend.
That's OK, there may not be a theist on here who would.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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10/26/2015 1:46:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 5:12:10 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:59:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:43:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:21:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 10/23/2015 7:10:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/23/2015 6:44:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But that doesn't matter does it, V3nesl? It must be right, because as you pointed out in your first response: it pleases you.

Yes, did you note the smiley face?

I share your doubts, actually, I really have no idea how valid the data is.

But I don't base my belief in God, or much of anything else, on popularity polls. In my opinion, modern society is in decline intellectually, not in ascendancy. I think the rise of Darwinism marks the end of the golden age of science. We are now in the age of technology, not the age of science. Guys like you are in fact the new pantheists. When you really drill down, you believe nature possesses magical powers, and that is a form of pantheism.

Please explain what magical powers "guys like us" believe nature possesses?

You believe nature does things in the wild that cannot be reproduced in the lab. You claim life emerged and blossomed spontaneously, and are ok with the fact that no such behavior can be observed or reproduced.

Current research has suggested different ways it could happen. Complex organic molecules have been found on comets. There are a number of possibilities that have been proposed but we don't know for sure, we may never know for sure due to the extreme amount of time between life's origin and now. That's not magic.

And what do you believe? Do you accept creationism as the source of life? What kind of 'magic' do you believe in that you can observe in the laboratory? Who was there to see how it was done and write it down?

There is no such thing as magic. There is knowledge and power. Just because you don't have the knowledge of someone from somewhere else, that doesn't make them magic. 1,000 years ago tv's, gps, cell phones, airplanes, lighters, air conditioners, etc would have seemed "magic". It is amusing when Atheists refer to knowledge and power as magic. It's the optimal version of arrogance to cross your arms, refute that anyone could do things that humans cannot do, and stomp off with a pout.

I'm fully aware of that. It's the theist that believes his or her deity or deities can ignore the laws of physics and perform miracles, another word for magic. See, what you're doing is known as projection, somehow seeing your own faults and weaknesses in other.