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Are Catholics Christians?

Geogeer
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10/28/2015 4:24:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

Yes. In fact they are members of the Church Christ founded.

(That should get the discussion going).
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/28/2015 4:48:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is the sectarian weapon denominations use against each other. Reality is anyone who professes to accept Christ as his saviour is a Christian. At worst, if he doesn't follow the precepts, he's a poor Christian, an unrealized Christian, an hypocritical Christian. But since Christians themselves admit that it's impossible to perfectly adhere to the standards, every Christian is to some extent an unrealized believer. It naturally follows that strict adherence to standards cannot be a valid criterion for being a Christian, for every single believer would fail that test and therefore no Christians would exist. This is rendered even more true because denominations cannot seem to agree on which standards should be upheld and to which extent they should be upheld.

The way out of the conundrum is to revert to a minimal definition. Under that, Catholics, Baptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Anglicans and Orthodox believers most definitely are Christians.
MadCornishBiker
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10/28/2015 5:20:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

Not according to the standard set by Christ at Matthew 7:21-23
MadCornishBiker
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10/28/2015 6:44:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Nope. Not according to the standard set by Christ at Matthew 7:21-23
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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10/28/2015 6:48:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Of course they are, just like our Catholic friend above claimed that the Catholic church is the church Christ established, so to Mormons claim to be the true church that Christ established.
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MadCornishBiker
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10/28/2015 6:50:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:48:04 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Of course they are, just like our Catholic friend above claimed that the Catholic church is the church Christ established, so to Mormons claim to be the true church that Christ established.

That doesn't make them Christian, far from it.
kasmic
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10/28/2015 6:52:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:44:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Nope. Not according to the standard set by Christ at Matthew 7:21-23

Of course, Mormons would say this verse applies to you in the same way you are trying to apply it to them.....
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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10/28/2015 7:27:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:48:04 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Of course they are, just like our Catholic friend above claimed that the Catholic church is the church Christ established, so to Mormons claim to be the true church that Christ established.

We should debate that one of these days... ;-)
kasmic
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10/28/2015 7:49:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 7:27:37 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:48:04 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Of course they are, just like our Catholic friend above claimed that the Catholic church is the church Christ established, so to Mormons claim to be the true church that Christ established.

We should debate that one of these days... ;-)

I would have been willing when I identified as a Mormon. Now that I dont, I think the debate would be better served being argued by a Mormon.
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MadCornishBiker
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10/28/2015 9:12:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 6:52:34 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:44:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Nope. Not according to the standard set by Christ at Matthew 7:21-23

Of course, Mormons would say this verse applies to you in the same way you are trying to apply it to them.....

Of course they would, but I can prove them wrong. They cannot prove me wrong, because I rely on God and his word, not on some "add-on" book which bears no relation to what Christ and the Apostles taught.

It is one thing to claim it, but completely another to live up to it.
kasmic
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10/28/2015 9:18:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:12:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:52:34 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:44:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/28/2015 6:36:46 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Mormons, are Mormons Christians?

Nope. Not according to the standard set by Christ at Matthew 7:21-23

Of course, Mormons would say this verse applies to you in the same way you are trying to apply it to them.....

Of course they would, but I can prove them wrong. They cannot prove me wrong, because I rely on God and his word, not on some "add-on" book which bears no relation to what Christ and the Apostles taught.

It is one thing to claim it, but completely another to live up to it.

Out of curiosity, what does the Book of Mormon teach that you are opposed to? Chapter and verse please.
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scuzz
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10/29/2015 4:08:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians? : :

In Daniel 2: 36-45, it shows that the feet of iron and clay are of the fourth kingdom, which was the Roman Empire that gave it's power over to the ruling party responsible for setting up the new laws to govern all the Christian groups that were formed by pagan worshipers. That ruling party eventually became the Papal, also known as the Vatican. The Vatican rules were very harsh ( like iron ) and anyone who didn't abide by their rules were punished or killed.

The Protestant reformers who had a chance to read the new testament hundreds of years later that the Vatican produced for their Christians began questioning those harsh rules that were enforced by the pagan worshipers of the Vatican. They started new denominations that are now around 40,000 different denominations today. All these denominations represent the "clay" part of the feet of iron and clay. Clay breaks into many pieces when struck on a ROCK ( God's Word ). Iron is very difficult to break in many pieces when struck on a ROCK but it will be destroyed by God's Word soon.
MadCornishBiker
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10/29/2015 3:57:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:18:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 9:12:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

It is one thing to claim it, but completely another to live up to it.

Out of curiosity, what does the Book of Mormon teach that you are opposed to? Chapter and verse please.

Right, lol.

The problem I have here is that I can't remember which bits I read in the Book of Mormon, or which I was told in one of my many discussions with Mormons in the past.

However it is easier for me to critique their teachings.

1: GOD is our Father in Heaven, who created us in His own image; like Him we are divine in our nature and purpose.

It is true that Jehovah is indeed our father in heaven, however the most rest is scriptrually false.

He worked with his son in creating everything else, and yes, they created us in their image.

2: We lived with God before this life as His SPIRIT CHILDREN. We came to earth to gain a body and to learn and grow.

Humans have never lived anywhere other than the earth and with a comparatively few (144,000) exceptions never will.

As Genesis 1 and 2 show, humans were created purely to live on the earth forever, as long as they remained faithful, and to care for, and enjoy, the earth and everything on it.

3: JESUS CHRIST is our Savior and Redeemer and the Only Begotten Son of God the Father.

No argument there in principle. However Jesus Christ was not Jehovah's only begotten so, it was the one whom he sent from heaven to occupy the specially created body of Jesus and become the Christ who is.

That is the uniqueness of Jehovah's only begotten son, who worked with him in creating all else.

4: God reveals truth and communicates through MODERN PROPHETS, just as He did with ancient prophets in Biblical times.

That isn't far off, except that under the New Covenant a new arrangement was made in which a select group of disciples, the 11 remaining after Judas sinned, plus Matthias elected into their number afterwards, formed a "Governing Body, simply known as "The Apostles and older men in Jerusalem", who presided over the teachings of all the Congregations. Thus maintaining the needed unity.

5: THE BIBLE is a sacred book of scripture that serves as an important pillar of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

No argument with the first part, but it is definitely not the pillar of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints or they wouldn't need the Book of Mormon.

6: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the complete RESTORATION of Christ"s original Church on earth.

Not in the slightest degree.

7: THE BOOK OF MORMON is a book of scripture that teaches about Jesus Christ"s visit to the ancient Americas.

Christ never visited America, he was sent solely to the "Lost sheep of Israel. There would have been neither need nor purpose for such a visit.

8: FOLLOWING GOD is how we achieve happiness in this life and salvation in the next.

As Jesus taught, it is doing Jehovah's will that brings us the chance of salvation Matthew 7:21-23, and Calling on his name is a vital part of that Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21; Romans 10: 13-15. Therefore you have need to know his name so you can call on it. The Mormons, for all their preaching do not draw people's attention to that name.

9: THE FAMILY is the divine building block of civilization.

No argument there whatever.

10: TEMPLES are the house of God on earth, holy places where we seek guidance and become closer to our Father in Heaven.

Temples are no longer needed. Teaching about Jehad's and his son can be carried out in homes, in secluded areas, or in Kingdom Halls which are nothing more than a shelter for people to meet in, learn about, and discuss scripture and the Kingdom.

11: LIFE AFTER DEATH is a natural extension of our current life where we will return to live with those that have gone before us.

Completely and utterly wrong.

There is not life immediately after death. Scripture teaches of two resurrections. The first into heaven for those who go there to rule alongside Christ.

The second or general resurrection of the rest of the dead will be onto the earth, and is the final stage of bringing humanity back to the state of holiness that Adam and Eve benefited from before they sinned and condemned us to sin and death.

The earth was created as man's home, and always will be.

12: MORMONS work to strengthen their families, communities and nations in an effort to create a better life for future generations.

I can only argue with that from a scriptural point of view because for all their efforts they are simply leading their families and anyone else who listens to them on the Broad and Spacious road to destruction. Matthew 7:13-14.

I have been told that the Angel Moroni gave the golden plates for the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith.

Moses only got his on stone. Why would Joseph Smith warrant gold plates? Does he claim to be greater than Moses?

I hope that helps.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/29/2015 4:04:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 4:08:36 AM, scuzz wrote:
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians? : :

In Daniel 2: 36-45, it shows that the feet of iron and clay are of the fourth kingdom, which was the Roman Empire that gave it's power over to the ruling party responsible for setting up the new laws to govern all the Christian groups that were formed by pagan worshipers. That ruling party eventually became the Papal, also known as the Vatican. The Vatican rules were very harsh ( like iron ) and anyone who didn't abide by their rules were punished or killed.
Sorry you are way out.

The legs and thighs of Iron are the Romans. The feet part of Iron and part of clay is a fifth Kingdom unlike the 4th but with some of it's strength. That multiple Kingdom stretches from the fall of the Roman military might on through to today.

In fact you are partly right in that the iron part of that fifth Kingdom, or group of Kingdoms, is the Holy Roman Empire, which took over from Rome and has ridden on the backs of many world Governments since committing religious fornication with them and so is fittingly depicted as the whore Babylon the Great, in Revelation.


The Protestant reformers who had a chance to read the new testament hundreds of years later that the Vatican produced for their Christians began questioning those harsh rules that were enforced by the pagan worshipers of the Vatican. They started new denominations that are now around 40,000 different denominations today. All these denominations represent the "clay" part of the feet of iron and clay. Clay breaks into many pieces when struck on a ROCK ( God's Word ). Iron is very difficult to break in many pieces when struck on a ROCK but it will be destroyed by God's Word soon.

Again to an extent you are right, but there can only be one truth and therefore only one true set of teachings.

That being said, there is only one group on the earth who follow as faithfully as possible the pattern set by Christ and the Apostles, and that group is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

They worship the God that Christ and the Apostles worship.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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10/29/2015 4:12:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 3:57:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/28/2015 9:18:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 10/28/2015 9:12:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

It is one thing to claim it, but completely another to live up to it.

Out of curiosity, what does the Book of Mormon teach that you are opposed to? Chapter and verse please.

Right, lol.

So aside from number 11, none of what you take issue with is taught in the Book of Mormon...
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MadCornishBiker
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10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 7:15:51 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Seventh-day Adventists, are Seventh-day Adventists Christians?

There is only one group that meet the qualifications to be counted as truly Christian and that is the Jehovah's Witnesses'

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught before them.

They worship the same God that Christ and the Apostles worship even now.

In any way you look at it they are the only group doing Jehovah's will Matthew 7:21-23.
Some say they go over the top in their adherence to scripture, but better to err on the side of obedience than of disobedience.
annanicole
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10/29/2015 10:37:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/29/2015 7:15:51 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Seventh-day Adventists, are Seventh-day Adventists Christians?

There is only one group that meet the qualifications to be counted as truly Christian and that is the Jehovah's Witnesses'

LMAO. MadClown: "The one group ... to be counted as truly Christian .... is the one group who disclaims the name 'Christian'."

Some say they go over the top in their adherence to scripture, but better to err on the side of obedience than of disobedience.

I haven't heard or read of one single person who claims that they are "over the top" in their adherence to scripture. Could you name this imaginary person for us? I can name thousands who unabashedly state that the JW's do NOT adhere to scripture, but I surmise that you can't name one single non-JW who states what you claim.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/29/2015 10:47:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/29/2015 7:15:51 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Seventh-day Adventists, are Seventh-day Adventists Christians?

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.


Flat out lie.

Where in the Bible is it said Christians should refuse the transfusion of not just whole blood, but also blood's primary fractions such as Red Cells, White Cells, Plasma and Platelets, but potentially accept minor fraction such as Albumin and Wound healing factor? Where? Please cite the verse.
Hitchian
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10/29/2015 10:48:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.


Flat out lie.

Where in the Bible is it said Christians should refuse the transfusion of not just whole blood, but also blood's primary fractions such as Red Cells, White Cells, Plasma and Platelets, but potentially accept minor fraction such as Albumin and Wound healing factor? Where? Please cite the verse.
dsjpk5
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10/30/2015 8:56:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

Yes, the original ones.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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10/30/2015 8:56:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:24:26 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

Yes. In fact they are members of the Church Christ founded.

(That should get the discussion going).

Amen, brother.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
desmac
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10/30/2015 8:59:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Of course catholics are christians. They are based on Jesus' own words, "suffer little children".
Accipiter
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10/31/2015 6:45:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:59:51 AM, desmac wrote:
Of course catholics are christians. They are based on Jesus' own words, "suffer little children".

LOL!
MadCornishBiker
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10/31/2015 11:13:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:48:28 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.


Flat out lie.

Where in the Bible is it said Christians should refuse the transfusion of not just whole blood, but also blood's primary fractions such as Red Cells, White Cells, Plasma and Platelets, but potentially accept minor fraction such as Albumin and Wound healing factor? Where? Please cite the verse.

Acts 15:28-29 says to abstain from blood, there is no qualifying factor, so no method of using blood to sustain life is acceptable.

However it does say blood, not blood fractions, so the WTBTS have ruled, in the same loving vein as the Apostles and Older Men in Jerusalem did, that fractions are a matter of conscience.

In other words you can accept blood fractions as long as your own conscience allows you to.

Some do. Some don't.

However there is more than simply blood at stake here.

Refusing a blood transfusion:

1: Demonstrates willingness to obey Jehovah even at risk of your life, as Shadrak Meshak and Abednego were rewarded for doing. Enduring faithfully to the end of one's life is a Christian requirement.

2: Demonstrates your complete faith in the resurrection.

3: Demonstrates that the life to come has greater value to you than the life now in this literally god-forsaken world.

Doing Jehovah's will, obeying his few prohibitions, is the same test that Adam failed and caused all the problems we have today. It is also the only way to be recognised by Christ in the judgement Matthew 7:21-23.

Acts 15:28-29 ends with, "If you abstain from these few things, Good health to you".

Those who survive into the New World, or are resurrected into it, will benefit from perfect health and eternal life as was the prospect put before Adam and Eve.
MadCornishBiker
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10/31/2015 11:14:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:47:52 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/29/2015 7:15:51 PM, Accipiter wrote:
How about Seventh-day Adventists, are Seventh-day Adventists Christians?

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.


Flat out lie.

Where in the Bible is it said Christians should refuse the transfusion of not just whole blood, but also blood's primary fractions such as Red Cells, White Cells, Plasma and Platelets, but potentially accept minor fraction such as Albumin and Wound healing factor? Where? Please cite the verse.

No, it is absolute truth.
MadCornishBiker
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10/31/2015 11:17:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:56:23 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 10/28/2015 4:22:14 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Are Catholics Christians?

Yes, the original ones.

Catholicism didn't exist until the end of the 4th century, so they could hardly be original.

The Roman Catholic Church was formed by the Emperor Constantine, as a religio-political force, since he recognised the power of religion to control the masses.

It has been used as such throughout it's long and bloody history.
Hitchian
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10/31/2015 11:20:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 11:13:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/29/2015 10:48:28 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:59:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

All their practices are based on the practices of Christ and the Apostles, even the door to door ministry is modelled on that of the Disciples Christ sent out to do just that.


Flat out lie.

Where in the Bible is it said Christians should refuse the transfusion of not just whole blood, but also blood's primary fractions such as Red Cells, White Cells, Plasma and Platelets, but potentially accept minor fraction such as Albumin and Wound healing factor? Where? Please cite the verse.

Acts 15:28-29 says to abstain from blood, there is no qualifying factor, so no method of using blood to sustain life is acceptable.

However it does say blood, not blood fractions, so the WTBTS have ruled, in the same loving vein as the Apostles and Older Men in Jerusalem did, that fractions are a matter of conscience.

In other words you can accept blood fractions as long as your own conscience allows you to.

Some do. Some don't.

However there is more than simply blood at stake here.

Refusing a blood transfusion:

1: Demonstrates willingness to obey Jehovah even at risk of your life, as Shadrak Meshak and Abednego were rewarded for doing. Enduring faithfully to the end of one's life is a Christian requirement.

2: Demonstrates your complete faith in the resurrection.

3: Demonstrates that the life to come has greater value to you than the life now in this literally god-forsaken world.

Doing Jehovah's will, obeying his few prohibitions, is the same test that Adam failed and caused all the problems we have today. It is also the only way to be recognised by Christ in the judgement Matthew 7:21-23.

Acts 15:28-29 ends with, "If you abstain from these few things, Good health to you".

Those who survive into the New World, or are resurrected into it, will benefit from perfect health and eternal life as was the prospect put before Adam and Eve.

I don't keep ut with Watchtower doctrine on blood. However, I do know that at one point in time not just whole blood but also blood's 4 main fractions were off limits. On what scriptural basis was the ban on transfusions extended from whole blood to blood's four primary components?

At least at one point in time, this was their official doctrine:

http://pennstatehershey.adam.com...

Again, show me the verse that made (makes) this position scriptural.
Also provide a quote and a date attesting to the change in doctrine.

Thanks.