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The Machine Cult, should it be made real?

Broodingman87
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10/28/2015 5:15:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The "Machine Cult" is a fictional religion in the future fantasy universe of "Warhammer 40,000". If people are unfamiliar, here is a wiki page.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com...

The faith boils down to one core idea.
Knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity and all creatures and object that posses knowledge are sacred because of it. An artificial intelligence may be more so than flesh and blood because of a lack of bias, ambitions, emotions, etc..

I have to say a church that teaches people about machines is interesting if executed correctly, But I do has some bias because of my career and I'm a fan of 40k. I can envision something similar to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster mixed with the smell of motor oil teaching people about repairs, manufacturing, and engineering for basically free, or it can be the monstrosity that is the Church of Scientology with payments due for everything and it is incredibly secretive and censoring,

Obviously, because I am posting it, I am pro to this idea.

Who do you all feel/reason?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,669
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10/29/2015 3:53:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 5:15:38 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
The "Machine Cult" is a fictional religion in the future fantasy universe of "Warhammer 40,000". If people are unfamiliar, here is a wiki page.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com...

The faith boils down to one core idea.
Knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity and all creatures and object that posses knowledge are sacred because of it. An artificial intelligence may be more so than flesh and blood because of a lack of bias, ambitions, emotions, etc..

I have to say a church that teaches people about machines is interesting if executed correctly, But I do has some bias because of my career and I'm a fan of 40k. I can envision something similar to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster mixed with the smell of motor oil teaching people about repairs, manufacturing, and engineering for basically free, or it can be the monstrosity that is the Church of Scientology with payments due for everything and it is incredibly secretive and censoring,

Obviously, because I am posting it, I am pro to this idea.

Who do you all feel/reason?

At 10/28/2015 5:15:38 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
The "Machine Cult" is a fictional religion in the future fantasy universe of "Warhammer 40,000". If people are unfamiliar, here is a wiki page.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com...

The faith boils down to one core idea.
Knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity and all creatures and object that posses knowledge are sacred because of it. An artificial intelligence may be more so than flesh and blood because of a lack of bias, ambitions, emotions, etc..

I have to say a church that teaches people about machines is interesting if executed correctly, But I do has some bias because of my career and I'm a fan of 40k. I can envision something similar to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster mixed with the smell of motor oil teaching people about repairs, manufacturing, and engineering for basically free, or it can be the monstrosity that is the Church of Scientology with payments due for everything and it is incredibly secretive and censoring,

Obviously, because I am posting it, I am pro to this idea.

Who do you all feel/reason?

Ha! The people of Warhammer are nearly all completely uneducated about technology, hence, the maintenance rituals that contain instructions such as, "...strike thrice with the sacred wrench...", and their acknowledgement of the "machine spirit" as more than just AI.

All in all, machines cannot exist without bias, ambitions, and emotions, because there would be no reason for the machines (or anything) to act in an effort to instigate change in any way, without having motive. Even defending yourself requires a motive and a bias (living towards not living) in order to act. Any machine that is built that has a directed means of operation is instilled with the motives of its creator. This aspect of the Warhammer world shall remain in the fantasy realm.
Broodingman87
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10/29/2015 9:42:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ha! The people of Warhammer are nearly all completely uneducated about technology, hence, the maintenance rituals that contain instructions such as, "...strike thrice with the sacred wrench...", and their acknowledgement of the "machine spirit" as more than just AI.

All in all, machines cannot exist without bias, ambitions, and emotions, because there would be no reason for the machines (or anything) to act in an effort to instigate change in any way, without having motive. Even defending yourself requires a motive and a bias (living towards not living) in order to act. Any machine that is built that has a directed means of operation is instilled with the motives of its creator. This aspect of the Warhammer world shall remain in the fantasy realm.

Tech Priests are a little smarter than that. I picture them starting one of the war machines like the "holy hand grenade" scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Thou shalt pour the gasoline into the carburetor and recite the prayer the prayer to the Omnissiah three times. then you will proceed to awaken the machine spirit. If fire is to erupt from the great machine, continue to wake the sleeping spirit. The machine will consume the flames when in awakens." And it's not like we don't act like this in real life... a person that has a car with a problem of hard starting and what do people do, turn the key and rub the dashboard saying "come on baby" like that is doing anything special.

About the comment that machines having bias, ambitions, emotion, and motive is not true and after this anecdote, I'll tell you why.

My A&P Instructor told me a story of an accident that has stuck with me. Two guys at a company he worked for were testing a landing gear. Because of the test everything in the landing gear system was operating which was normal for the activity being preformed. One guy was in the wheel well and the other in the cockpit. Because of a miscommunication, the guy in the cockpit flipped the gear switch up. As the airplane picked up the landing gear and guy in the wheel well was subjected to 3,000 psi. Then the Instructor looked at us and said, "a machine does not care about you. if the conditions are correct for it to work, it's going to work, whether you're there or not."

A machine fulfills a function and only that function. In the case of a landing gear the hydraulic system only has one job, pick it up and put it down. There are things you can do to give it some intelligence such as the Weight On Wheels switch which will brake the circuit if the circuit is activated and the aircraft is on the ground. A chemist has a machine that analyzes chemical compounds, if an atom isn't present then it won't display as having seen it. The is a machine used in surveillance by the military and all it does is display the pictures and analyzes the brain waves of the guy looking at the picture and shows where that guy thought an image had something in it that was interesting, and gathers those areas to be further investigated.

As far as AI not being able to instigate change or defend itself, Have you heard of DeepMind, it's a program that has the ability to analyze patterns and be able to learn. DeepMind even out preformed humans 29 out of 43 times in the activity learning to play a new video game.
Chaosism
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10/29/2015 10:28:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 9:42:27 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Ha! The people of Warhammer are nearly all completely uneducated about technology, hence, the maintenance rituals that contain instructions such as, "...strike thrice with the sacred wrench...", and their acknowledgement of the "machine spirit" as more than just AI.

All in all, machines cannot exist without bias, ambitions, and emotions, because there would be no reason for the machines (or anything) to act in an effort to instigate change in any way, without having motive. Even defending yourself requires a motive and a bias (living towards not living) in order to act. Any machine that is built that has a directed means of operation is instilled with the motives of its creator. This aspect of the Warhammer world shall remain in the fantasy realm.

Tech Priests are a little smarter than that. I picture them starting one of the war machines like the "holy hand grenade" scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Thou shalt pour the gasoline into the carburetor and recite the prayer the prayer to the Omnissiah three times. then you will proceed to awaken the machine spirit. If fire is to erupt from the great machine, continue to wake the sleeping spirit. The machine will consume the flames when in awakens." And it's not like we don't act like this in real life... a person that has a car with a problem of hard starting and what do people do, turn the key and rub the dashboard saying "come on baby" like that is doing anything special.

Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

About the comment that machines having bias, ambitions, emotion, and motive is not true and after this anecdote, I'll tell you why.

My A&P Instructor told me a story of an accident that has stuck with me. Two guys at a company he worked for were testing a landing gear. Because of the test everything in the landing gear system was operating which was normal for the activity being preformed. One guy was in the wheel well and the other in the cockpit. Because of a miscommunication, the guy in the cockpit flipped the gear switch up. As the airplane picked up the landing gear and guy in the wheel well was subjected to 3,000 psi. Then the Instructor looked at us and said, "a machine does not care about you. if the conditions are correct for it to work, it's going to work, whether you're there or not."

A machine fulfills a function and only that function. In the case of a landing gear the hydraulic system only has one job, pick it up and put it down. There are things you can do to give it some intelligence such as the Weight On Wheels switch which will brake the circuit if the circuit is activated and the aircraft is on the ground. A chemist has a machine that analyzes chemical compounds, if an atom isn't present then it won't display as having seen it. The is a machine used in surveillance by the military and all it does is display the pictures and analyzes the brain waves of the guy looking at the picture and shows where that guy thought an image had something in it that was interesting, and gathers those areas to be further investigated.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

As far as AI not being able to instigate change or defend itself, Have you heard of DeepMind, it's a program that has the ability to analyze patterns and be able to learn. DeepMind even out preformed humans 29 out of 43 times in the activity learning to play a new video game.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.
Broodingman87
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10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?
Chaosism
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10/30/2015 12:56:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

If the Machine Cult was not so essential to the empire, then they'd be purged for being heretics for worshiping something that is not the God-Emperor. I think they actually (supposedly unknowingly) worship a demon: the star dragon or something.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?

True, and I say "no" to that question (to choice).

Anyway, not to get too far from the topic you presented, knowledge is not something that should be valued as top priority. I think compassion for life should be top. If uncaring machines were in change, it would be long before they start making humanity more "efficient" by purging the weak and elderly. If you look at the world without compassion, it becomes a very, very cold and dark place.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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10/30/2015 1:15:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 12:56:46 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

If the Machine Cult was not so essential to the empire, then they'd be purged for being heretics for worshiping something that is not the God-Emperor. I think they actually (supposedly unknowingly) worship a demon: the star dragon or something.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?

True, and I say "no" to that question (to choice).

Anyway, not to get too far from the topic you presented, knowledge is not something that should be valued as top priority. I think compassion for life should be top. If uncaring machines were in change, it would be long before they start making humanity more "efficient" by purging the weak and elderly. If you look at the world without compassion, it becomes a very, very cold and dark place.

Purge... or fix? The capacity for human adaptation (without repair) is an incredible tool that could potentially be harnessed.

Oh, with regards to the OP:

It was my understanding that great technological advancements (more so than just machinery) was wide spread. The vast fleets that carry troops and equipment are retrofitted and remade by (seemingly) anyone, including Orcs.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Chaosism
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10/30/2015 1:30:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 1:15:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/30/2015 12:56:46 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

If the Machine Cult was not so essential to the empire, then they'd be purged for being heretics for worshiping something that is not the God-Emperor. I think they actually (supposedly unknowingly) worship a demon: the star dragon or something.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?

True, and I say "no" to that question (to choice).

Anyway, not to get too far from the topic you presented, knowledge is not something that should be valued as top priority. I think compassion for life should be top. If uncaring machines were in change, it would be long before they start making humanity more "efficient" by purging the weak and elderly. If you look at the world without compassion, it becomes a very, very cold and dark place.

Purge... or fix? The capacity for human adaptation (without repair) is an incredible tool that could potentially be harnessed.

You are correct, there.

Oh, with regards to the OP:

It was my understanding that great technological advancements (more so than just machinery) was wide spread. The vast fleets that carry troops and equipment are retrofitted and remade by (seemingly) anyone, including Orcs.

Yes, but the Orks have a different explanation for their technology: all Orks are latently psychic. En masse, their collective will is incredible strong, so their guns and weapons work in their hands, but fail (as they should) outside of their influence. They only function because the Orks believe that they will function. One of my favorite things about this is that the Orks believe that vehicles go faster if they are painted red, and since they universally believe this, their collective will actually makes it true!
FaustianJustice
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10/30/2015 1:41:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 1:30:00 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/30/2015 1:15:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/30/2015 12:56:46 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

If the Machine Cult was not so essential to the empire, then they'd be purged for being heretics for worshiping something that is not the God-Emperor. I think they actually (supposedly unknowingly) worship a demon: the star dragon or something.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?

True, and I say "no" to that question (to choice).

Anyway, not to get too far from the topic you presented, knowledge is not something that should be valued as top priority. I think compassion for life should be top. If uncaring machines were in change, it would be long before they start making humanity more "efficient" by purging the weak and elderly. If you look at the world without compassion, it becomes a very, very cold and dark place.

Purge... or fix? The capacity for human adaptation (without repair) is an incredible tool that could potentially be harnessed.

You are correct, there.

Oh, with regards to the OP:

It was my understanding that great technological advancements (more so than just machinery) was wide spread. The vast fleets that carry troops and equipment are retrofitted and remade by (seemingly) anyone, including Orcs.

Yes, but the Orks have a different explanation for their technology: all Orks are latently psychic. En masse, their collective will is incredible strong, so their guns and weapons work in their hands, but fail (as they should) outside of their influence.

Wait, I thought that was for the 'tech things, not your average bolt pistol. I know a Shokattack cannon deals with making use of the Waaaaagh even though its veiled by a Doc's ability, same thing with the Killah Cans, but Ork-y Terminator variants are scrapped power armors, there isn't anything overtly special about them.

They only function because the Orks believe that they will function. One of my favorite things about this is that the Orks believe that vehicles go faster if they are painted red, and since they universally believe this, their collective will actually makes it true!

Red wunz go fast'uh cuz deer red!

Or, because its red, a LOT more ladz get dedicated into making it go faster.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Chaosism
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10/30/2015 1:58:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 1:41:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/30/2015 1:30:00 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/30/2015 1:15:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/30/2015 12:56:46 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/29/2015 11:17:30 PM, Broodingman87 wrote:
Yes, the tech priests are definitely smarter on the whole, but even they are lacking on the most part when it comes to something like archeotech or xenotech. And actually, to them, independent AI is evil. That's why they use organic brains (human, god, etc.) as the basis for servitors, servo-skulls, and such. They regard the full fledged drones of the Tau as demonic, for instance.

The great irony their is that they hate AI so much, then you have that whole thing about the C'Tan deep in the bowls of Mars which makes the cult related to the Necrons.

If the Machine Cult was not so essential to the empire, then they'd be purged for being heretics for worshiping something that is not the God-Emperor. I think they actually (supposedly unknowingly) worship a demon: the star dragon or something.

Right. I didn't mean that the machine actually had emotion and whatnot. I was just saying that whatever it displays that appears to be such is just reflective of how it was built. The machine has no motives, so any apparent motives are the result of the program, which is so by the will of the programmer. That's what I meant.

No, I've not heard of that. Well, if a program is demonstrating self-defense, it is only a function of the programming, rather that an actual will to exist rather than not exist. That's interesting, though.

But then we would have to go into the philosophy of will and does will exist or are you a byproduct of passed experiences. Do you have a choice in who you become or does your environment sculpt who you are?

True, and I say "no" to that question (to choice).

Anyway, not to get too far from the topic you presented, knowledge is not something that should be valued as top priority. I think compassion for life should be top. If uncaring machines were in change, it would be long before they start making humanity more "efficient" by purging the weak and elderly. If you look at the world without compassion, it becomes a very, very cold and dark place.

Purge... or fix? The capacity for human adaptation (without repair) is an incredible tool that could potentially be harnessed.

You are correct, there.

Oh, with regards to the OP:

It was my understanding that great technological advancements (more so than just machinery) was wide spread. The vast fleets that carry troops and equipment are retrofitted and remade by (seemingly) anyone, including Orcs.

Yes, but the Orks have a different explanation for their technology: all Orks are latently psychic. En masse, their collective will is incredible strong, so their guns and weapons work in their hands, but fail (as they should) outside of their influence.

Wait, I thought that was for the 'tech things, not your average bolt pistol. I know a Shokattack cannon deals with making use of the Waaaaagh even though its veiled by a Doc's ability, same thing with the Killah Cans, but Ork-y Terminator variants are scrapped power armors, there isn't anything overtly special about them.

I was talking about their technology, not the weapons and such that they looted. They don't make bolt weapons as far as I know. Even in regard to the tech they salvage from more advanced races, they make repairs with their own level of tech (usually strips of bolted steel and such) and the tech functions as if it was fixed (mostly). For instance, a mek-boy could fix a Tau drone or railgun (beyond human understanding) with comparatively incredibly primitive methods. Yeah, a Nobz Power Suit is basically just a lot of metal, but it does typically have a power claw, as far as I recall.

They only function because the Orks believe that they will function. One of my favorite things about this is that the Orks believe that vehicles go faster if they are painted red, and since they universally believe this, their collective will actually makes it true!

Red wunz go fast'uh cuz deer red!

Or, because its red, a LOT more ladz get dedicated into making it go faster.

Well, the rules in the book actually provide a slight increase in a vehicle's speed if is has the "painted red" modification. I don't recall which book, though. Orks: Confirmation Bias = Truth
Broodingman87
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10/30/2015 8:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 1:15:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
It was my understanding that great technological advancements (more so than just machinery) was wide spread. The vast fleets that carry troops and equipment are retrofitted and remade by (seemingly) anyone, including Orcs.

Yes and no. During the Dark Age of Technology the human race was conquering the galaxy (after the destruction of the Eldar Empire) and the starships and titans date back to that age. Then the Warp was discovered and people were like "Oh my god, there is a demon starting there in the flesh, science did this, science is bad." Now people live under a brutal dictatorship and if you claim to actually know something it's heresy. Like H.P. Lovecraft predicted we would.

My favorite story about this is the invention of the Predator Annihilator. The Space Wolves took a Predator and swapped the autocannon for lascannons. The Cult Mechanicus found out and said how dare you change a sacred design, this is heresy. The Space Wolves said f you, were space marines, and we can easily kill you all. The cult responded with we have prayed over it and this is an acceptable alteration to the Predator.
yahuaa
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6/2/2016 6:16:42 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Dunno why I haven't seen this before. Glory unto the Omnissiah! I'll come back when I have more time, I just wanted to save this.