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Free will vs omniscience problem?

Benshapiro
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10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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10/29/2015 8:57:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
...are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

No. they are preknown. You could have done otherwise, and if so, it would have been known. It is possible to know person so well that it can be known what he will do in future, when he gets into certain situation. It doesn"t mean that person free will is interfered.

Also, it would be good to understand, free will doesn"t mean that you can do whatever you want. It means that you can want whatever you want.
kp98
Posts: 729
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10/29/2015 9:13:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't get very excited by 'problems' due to verbal contradictions. I don't believe in god at all, but even if I did, I would argue that the habit of giving God literally unlimited or infinite attributes seems strange. God is rarely described as infinite in his powers in the Bible, and where he is it seems unlikely that it is anything other than hyperbole.

Certainly a god has to be very, very powerful but I don't see any good reason to up the stakes to literally infinite power on scriptural grounds.

As I read the Bible, god is powerful but not infinitely so. It would be interesting to trace how later theologians raised Him to literally infinite power. I am sure it was done by theologians not totally au fait with the mathematics of infinity - more likely it was a term used carelessly and imprecisely as the ultimate superlative compliment.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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10/29/2015 9:41:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be.

Non sequitur.

Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so.

What a surprise! That would be because you personally find it unpalatable to not have free will?

If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility.

Or there is no God. Or God is not omniscient. But those possibilities are unpalatable too, aren't they?

All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

So Ben's solution is to redefine omniscience. It's like knowing the lottery numbers once they are drawn. After the fact omniscience. Lol.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,131
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10/29/2015 10:19:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

No.

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

I'm with you.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Either god is all knowing, or he isn't. If he doesn't know everything, then he is not omniscient.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/29/2015 10:37:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

You're essentially saying that God is not prescient but that he his omniscient with regard to what free will beings will do as soon as they themselves know it, right?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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10/29/2015 11:11:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Poor Ben. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants free will and he absolutely must have an omniscient God. If there's a contradiction between the two, then one of them must be redefined because he can't possibly entertain the idea that there is no God. He can't redefine free will so he goes for omniscience. Suddenly omniscience no longer means knowing absolutely everything, it is now constrained to make an exception for free will.

God knew you were going to opt for that, Ben. Only after you made that choice though. Lol.
dee-em
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10/29/2015 11:22:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:57:27 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
...are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

No. they are preknown. You could have done otherwise, and if so, it would have been known. It is possible to know person so well that it can be known what he will do in future, when he gets into certain situation. It doesn"t mean that person free will is interfered.

Yeah it does. If God knows with absolute certainty what choices you will make then you only have the illusion of choice. It can only be free will and real choice when the outcome is not known (predetermined).

Also, it would be good to understand, free will doesn"t mean that you can do whatever you want. It means that you can want whatever you want.

Free will means the power to act without the constraint of necessity or fate, free from external conditions. Please don't make up your own definitions.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/29/2015 11:59:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

God is not a coherent concept, Ben. It's a vague appeal to intuition without explaining how such intuitions should be selected or verified, or how any intuitive interpretations should be constructed and validated.

If such interpretations were all identical then that wouldn't matter, but it's clear that they're not. It's also clear that there's no independent, evidentiary rationale for picking between them.

Omniscience is also an incoherent concept. It presupposes an intuitive and operational understanding of knowledge when it's possible that human thought itself is not well-modeled by human intuition. And again, people define and model knowledge in different ways.

It's fruitless to try and hold such intuitions to account when their derivations are so obscure, disparate and lacking in rigour, and the premises themselves are incoherent and unaccountable.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 2:30:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Predetermined and preknown are not the same thing.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,232
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10/30/2015 2:59:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:19:28 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

No.

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

I'm with you.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Either god is all knowing, or he isn't. If he doesn't know everything, then he is not omniscient.

$5 says Ben will ignore this post or respond with a post as inane as the OP.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 3:57:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

Only driveby attacks or do you actually have an opinion?
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 4:01:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

None of us reduced him to anything. It's his life. Not ours. You say anyone can claim... but the claim on him was that he had the power to bring back the dead, heal blindness, heal lepracy, cause the crippled to walk. This is not a reduced scale claim. All of his disciples except for one faced brutal prisons, torcher, death etc for their faith in him. The one exception betrayed him then killed himself. Therse claims are not that he was a mere little simplistic man. They claim he was God then died for their belief.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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10/30/2015 4:03:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:57:29 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

Only driveby attacks or do you actually have an opinion?
You are incapable of discerning the meaning of my one liners, I would place you in serious danger entering a catatonic state were I to elaborate.
There are some things people like you need to be protected from, now you work just as hard as you can trying to understand my one liners, there's a good chap.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 4:25:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:03:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:57:29 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

Only driveby attacks or do you actually have an opinion?
You are incapable of discerning the meaning of my one liners, I would place you in serious danger entering a catatonic state were I to elaborate.
There are some things people like you need to be protected from, now you work just as hard as you can trying to understand my one liners, there's a good chap.

Am I to take your word for it that you know how to elaborate? I'm yet to see anything more than unwitty one liners. I can teach a toddler your method. Your approach comes off as,"I have nothing intelligent to say or elaborate on and believe in nothing, so I attempt a feeble attack on posts that make sense in order to inflate my false, depressed, and low self image of myslef." How's that working for you? The clock is ticking. The sand is pouring out. Tick. Tick. Tick. Tick. I have nothing to lose. You have everything to lose. Good luck.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,131
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10/30/2015 5:32:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:01:47 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

None of us reduced him to anything. It's his life. Not ours. You say anyone can claim... but the claim on him was that he had the power to bring back the dead, heal blindness, heal lepracy, cause the crippled to walk. This is not a reduced scale claim. All of his disciples except for one faced brutal prisons, torcher, death etc for their faith in him. The one exception betrayed him then killed himself. Therse claims are not that he was a mere little simplistic man. They claim he was God then died for their belief.

Uh, actually two were not killed for, or because, of Jesus. Did you forget about John? At any rate, carry on with your rant.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,131
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10/30/2015 5:35:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 2:59:27 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 10:19:28 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

No.

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

I'm with you.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Either god is all knowing, or he isn't. If he doesn't know everything, then he is not omniscient.

$5 says Ben will ignore this post or respond with a post as inane as the OP.

I'm not taking that bet! ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
8to5
Posts: 9
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10/30/2015 6:16:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take. : :

Our creator planned the future so why would he give his created people the power to screw that up? There's a reason no man can create his own thoughts.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.
10: The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11: The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Psalm 139
17: How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
AWSM0055
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10/30/2015 6:35:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Your all stupid:

1. God doesn't exist
2. If he did, we still wouldn't know that he is omniscient because he's untestable
3. This topic is therefore pointless.

Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have photonic sensitive eyes? Pointless.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

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Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

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8to5
Posts: 9
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10/30/2015 6:46:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 6:35:26 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.




1. God doesn't exist
2. If he did, we still wouldn't know that he is omniscient because he's untestable
3. This topic is therefore pointless.

Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have photonic sensitive eyes? Pointless. : :

Not as stupid as the one who wrote this, ": Your all stupid:"
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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10/30/2015 8:18:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:25:51 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 4:03:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:57:29 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

Only driveby attacks or do you actually have an opinion?
You are incapable of discerning the meaning of my one liners, I would place you in serious danger entering a catatonic state were I to elaborate.
There are some things people like you need to be protected from, now you work just as hard as you can trying to understand my one liners, there's a good chap.

Am I to take your word for it that you know how to elaborate? I'm yet to see anything more than unwitty one liners. I can teach a toddler your method. Your approach comes off as,"I have nothing intelligent to say or elaborate on and believe in nothing, so I attempt a feeble attack on posts that make sense in order to inflate my false, depressed, and low self image of myslef." How's that working for you? The clock is ticking. The sand is pouring out. Tick. Tick. Tick. Tick. I have nothing to lose. You have everything to lose. Good luck.
As we see, it is as I said.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Bennett91
Posts: 4,232
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10/30/2015 3:44:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 5:35:46 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/30/2015 2:59:27 AM, Bennett91 wrote:

$5 says Ben will ignore this post or respond with a post as inane as the OP.

I'm not taking that bet! ;-)

Aww I really needed that $5 . . Oh well you'll have to pay me some other way :P
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/30/2015 4:41:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:37:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

You're essentially saying that God is not prescient but that he his omniscient with regard to what free will beings will do as soon as they themselves know it, right?

God is prescient about all choices that we can possibly make before they are made, but only knows what we chose to do when we chose to do it. So I think that answers your question.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,669
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10/30/2015 4:57:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? (1) I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. (2) This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take. (3)

(1) Contradiction: "All-knowing" and "doesn't know".

(2) Contradiction: "know" and "possibilities", because the latter necessitates unknowingness. If something is known, then possibility is an incoherent notion.

(3) If God can identify and know the variables and conditions to derive the logical possibilities, then why would be not be able to identify the results of those known variables and conditions?

God is either not omniscient (or non-existent), or free will does not exist.

Free will entails possibility (lack of knowledge) while omniscience is the opposite.
Benshapiro
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10/30/2015 4:57:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:19:28 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

No.

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

I'm with you.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

Either god is all knowing, or he isn't. If he doesn't know everything, then he is not omniscient.

I used to think that too, but knowledge presupposes the laws of logic. If axioms aren't necessarily true (and they wouldn't be if the laws of logic could be broken) then knowledge isn't possible. So it's my contention that "all knowing" is only a possibility acting within the confines of the laws of logic.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/30/2015 5:14:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:57:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Can free will exist if God is omniscient?

Free will is the ability to have done otherwise than what you did. If God knows how you will live your life before you even live it, your choices are predestined. If your choices are predestined, you couldn't have done otherwise than what you did, or will do, so free will wouldn't exist.

So it's my contention that if God is omniscient, he must not know what our choices will be. Can God still be all knowing if he doesn't know what choices we will make? (1) I think so. If God knows what beings with free will would choose to do before they chose to do anything, that would be logically contradictory (according to what the definition of free will means). So, God can be omniscient, but limited by logical possibility. All there is to know only exists in a realm of logical possibilities. (2) This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take. (3)

(1) Contradiction: "All-knowing" and "doesn't know".

It depends on whether "all-knowing" is constrained by logical possibilities. If knowledge is constrained by logical possibilities, then one can still be all-knowing (knowing all there is to know) and "not know" logical impossibilities (because it doesn't contain any knowledge content).

(2) Contradiction: "know" and "possibilities", because the latter necessitates unknowingness. If something is known, then possibility is an incoherent notion.

Although God would not know what choices beings with free will would make, anything that is a logically impossibility is not potential knowledge. So all knowledge of things logically possible could still mean that God is omniscient.

(3) If God can identify and know the variables and conditions to derive the logical possibilities, then why would be not be able to identify the results of those known variables and conditions?

God would be able to. Beings with free will have a near-infinite algorithm of possible free choices. Once a choice is made, the algorithm is taken to the next step. God knows all possibilies and how they all end, but how we move down the algorithm is up to us. Sorry this is super confusing for me to explain.

God is either not omniscient (or non-existent), or free will does not exist.

Free will entails possibility (lack of knowledge) while omniscience is the opposite.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/30/2015 5:19:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:41:11 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/29/2015 10:37:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/29/2015 8:28:03 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

This means that God would know every possible choice you can make at any given moment, but only once you freely choose one possible choice is when God knows which path you chose to take.

You're essentially saying that God is not prescient but that he his omniscient with regard to what free will beings will do as soon as they themselves know it, right?

God is prescient about all choices that we can possibly make before they are made, but only knows what we chose to do when we chose to do it. So I think that answers your question.

You've come to this conclusion as a way out of the conundrum, not that you would have any sort of evidence to back it up, right?

This is theological wishful thinking.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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10/30/2015 5:24:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:18:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 4:25:51 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 4:03:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:57:29 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:47:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:22:57 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Define omniscient. Even you have access to unending amounts of knowledge. It doesn't mean you focus on it. If the internet were hard wired to your brain, you would have access quickly to that unending amount of knowledge. Ifyou do not keep up with sports, you could still quickly tell me what day Mike Tyson was born and where. This isn't hard. For someone to have an omniscient sense of being isn't all that hard to understand. If their brain has access to a world wide weblike center that has all the knowledge of our reality readily available or connected to them, they would be omniscient to us. If they can pause our reality like a dvd, if you will, or like a video game creator, they have unlimited time to observe and ponder anything. If they make a "mistake" they just rewind and fix. To us we never see a "mistake" because our time is not time at all to them. We could say,"Hey, but they made a mistske!" But did they? Things went exactly as they pleased and we witnessed no such mistake. Just because they erase a few notes and rewrite does not mean the final copy of the song they wrote isn't perfect. The end result is the same no matter what the notes say or how many times the writer erased and revised. We only see the masterpiece and its beauty is not diminished.
I love the way they reduce their god to some ordinary stiff in order to prove how terrific he is. Any ordinary stiff could do that therefore god.

Only driveby attacks or do you actually have an opinion?
You are incapable of discerning the meaning of my one liners, I would place you in serious danger entering a catatonic state were I to elaborate.
There are some things people like you need to be protected from, now you work just as hard as you can trying to understand my one liners, there's a good chap.

Am I to take your word for it that you know how to elaborate? I'm yet to see anything more than unwitty one liners. I can teach a toddler your method. Your approach comes off as,"I have nothing intelligent to say or elaborate on and believe in nothing, so I attempt a feeble attack on posts that make sense in order to inflate my false, depressed, and low self image of myslef." How's that working for you? The clock is ticking. The sand is pouring out. Tick. Tick. Tick. Tick. I have nothing to lose. You have everything to lose. Good luck.
As we see, it is as I said.

Come here and fight me because I'm bored.