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History of Islam

Skepsikyma
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11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
UtherPenguin
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11/1/2015 9:10:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.






He should really do more history related videos like that. Love the amount of depth he goes into, especially on issue that I see get oversimplified way too often.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Skepsikyma
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11/1/2015 11:14:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

This isn't really true, in my estimation; could you elaborate? In many ways, the Western Renaissance was sparked by an Islamic Renaissance in both Umayyad al-Andalus and Abbasid Baghdad. What Islam never went through was an Enlightenment, because, well, secular Enlightenment ideals just don't fit well with Islamic society. The foundation which existed in northern Europe just doesn't exist over there.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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11/1/2015 11:16:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 9:10:55 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


He should really do more history related videos like that. Love the amount of depth he goes into, especially on issue that I see get oversimplified way too often.

Yeah, I hate the oversimplification. It's 1,500 years of history, countless ethnic groups and religious minorities, plus typical power-politics and geopolitical maneuvering. Treating Islam as a faceless, monolithic horde is just, well, mind-numbingly stupid.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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11/1/2015 11:18:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 11:14:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

This isn't really true, in my estimation; could you elaborate? In many ways, the Western Renaissance was sparked by an Islamic Renaissance in both Umayyad al-Andalus and Abbasid Baghdad. What Islam never went through was an Enlightenment, because, well, secular Enlightenment ideals just don't fit well with Islamic society. The foundation which existed in northern Europe just doesn't exist over there.

You said it better than I.
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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11/1/2015 11:19:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

lack of renaissance? What do you mean by this? When you say that eastern religions incorporate wisdom into their beliefs, what are you implying?

Look at one of the Caliphs in this video series as an example. Ali abu Talib, that most controversial focus of the Shia and Sunni split. Despite this, he is respected by all Muslims. If you were to read his sermons, it is very evident that there is a great deal of wisdom in Islam, and that Ali himself was an enlightened man after God's heart.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
ironslippers
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11/2/2015 3:32:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 11:19:56 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

lack of renaissance? What do you mean by this? When you say that eastern religions incorporate wisdom into their beliefs, what are you implying?

Look at one of the Caliphs in this video series as an example. Ali abu Talib, that most controversial focus of the Shia and Sunni split. Despite this, he is respected by all Muslims. If you were to read his sermons, it is very evident that there is a great deal of wisdom in Islam, and that Ali himself was an enlightened man after God's heart.

I'm speaking personal ownership of wisdom. Eastern Religions give wisdom to be interpreted by the recipient not to be interpreted by an authority figure.

The Renaissance brought on by the ability for all to read and interpret the bible, to this day splinters off into different versions of Christianity.

Muslims rarely question the authority of their leaders or question their own beliefs. I could have this wrong for the only Muslims I come into contact with are defensive/secretive of what they personally believe (there are a number of possible explanations for this)
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
ironslippers
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11/2/2015 3:44:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wisdom "learn to think like those around you"
While I make an effort to understand Islam I don't have the impression that Islam makes any effort to understand anyone.

I hope someone with more experience than I with Muslims can correct me
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
ironslippers
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11/2/2015 4:11:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 3:44:01 AM, ironslippers wrote:
Wisdom "learn to think like those around you"

That little gem came from the movie "The Godfather". Wisdom is all around us
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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11/2/2015 4:16:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 3:32:07 AM, ironslippers wrote:
At 11/1/2015 11:19:56 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

lack of renaissance? What do you mean by this? When you say that eastern religions incorporate wisdom into their beliefs, what are you implying?

Look at one of the Caliphs in this video series as an example. Ali abu Talib, that most controversial focus of the Shia and Sunni split. Despite this, he is respected by all Muslims. If you were to read his sermons, it is very evident that there is a great deal of wisdom in Islam, and that Ali himself was an enlightened man after God's heart.

I'm speaking personal ownership of wisdom. Eastern Religions give wisdom to be interpreted by the recipient not to be interpreted by an authority figure.

The Renaissance brought on by the ability for all to read and interpret the bible, to this day splinters off into different versions of Christianity.

Muslims rarely question the authority of their leaders or question their own beliefs. I could have this wrong for the only Muslims I come into contact with are defensive/secretive of what they personally believe (there are a number of possible explanations for this)

There is something very personal about one's relationship with God when it is considered a pillar of the faith to pray at least 5 times a day.

Honestly, if you want a good reason why a Muslim might be nervous to say what they believe, it's probably because western society is overwhelmingly pagan, pervasively satanic, and very much against anyone who notices this and says something about it.

Anti-Muslim sentiments are very strong, misinformed, and unreasonable. Muslims have to put up with a lot of hatred, and it looks very different from their perspective than it does from an outsider perspective.

There is also a very strong desire in the Muslim community to preserve the integrity of the faith. Schism is to be avoided. Innovation in religion is rightly seen as something that corrupts the purity of the faith. This noble goal often times leads people into forms of idolatry that they are blind to. It's a good thing God is full of mercy. On the day of judgement, we will all be shown where it is that we differ.

But to those who are already in the know about The Universal Faith, the Qur'an is pretty lucid testimony.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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11/2/2015 5:33:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 4:16:03 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 11/2/2015 3:32:07 AM, ironslippers wrote:
At 11/1/2015 11:19:56 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

lack of renaissance? What do you mean by this? When you say that eastern religions incorporate wisdom into their beliefs, what are you implying?

Look at one of the Caliphs in this video series as an example. Ali abu Talib, that most controversial focus of the Shia and Sunni split. Despite this, he is respected by all Muslims. If you were to read his sermons, it is very evident that there is a great deal of wisdom in Islam, and that Ali himself was an enlightened man after God's heart.

I'm speaking personal ownership of wisdom. Eastern Religions give wisdom to be interpreted by the recipient not to be interpreted by an authority figure.

The Renaissance brought on by the ability for all to read and interpret the bible, to this day splinters off into different versions of Christianity.

Muslims rarely question the authority of their leaders or question their own beliefs. I could have this wrong for the only Muslims I come into contact with are defensive/secretive of what they personally believe (there are a number of possible explanations for this)

There is something very personal about one's relationship with God when it is considered a pillar of the faith to pray at least 5 times a day.

Honestly, if you want a good reason why a Muslim might be nervous to say what they believe, it's probably because western society is overwhelmingly pagan, pervasively satanic, and very much against anyone who notices this and says something about it.

Anti-Muslim sentiments are very strong, misinformed, and unreasonable. Muslims have to put up with a lot of hatred, and it looks very different from their perspective than it does from an outsider perspective.

There is also a very strong desire in the Muslim community to preserve the integrity of the faith. Schism is to be avoided. Innovation in religion is rightly seen as something that corrupts the purity of the faith. This noble goal often times leads people into forms of idolatry that they are blind to. It's a good thing God is full of mercy. On the day of judgement, we will all be shown where it is that we differ.


But to those who are already in the know about The Universal Faith, the Qur'an is pretty lucid testimony.

Thank you I now have a better understanding of the Muslim people
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Fly
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11/3/2015 1:22:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 11:16:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:10:55 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


What are some of the major differences between ISIL and early Sunni Islam-- modern technology aside, of course? And is eschatology a much bigger motivator today than early on or no?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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11/3/2015 4:29:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 1:22:30 AM, Fly wrote:
At 11/1/2015 11:16:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:10:55 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


What are some of the major differences between ISIL and early Sunni Islam-- modern technology aside, of course?

ISIL is Salafist/Wahhabist, so it's unrecognized by more traditional Sunni schools of Islam. One of the biggest reasons for this is the practice of takfir: which is the declaration of another Muslim as an apostate against their will. Islam is different from Christianity in this regard: people aren't supposed to be purged or punished for being the wrong sort of Muslim; those battles are fought intellectually, among the ulama (a class of religious scholar). Another is their rejection of the traditional madhabs, or schools of Islamic law, the use of analogy in legal rulings, and the entire idea of scholarly consensus, all bedrocks of the Islamic tradition.

Salafis compare themselves to the Salaf, or believers during the prophets day, but the comparison is absurd, as the four Madhabs of fiqh, and the scholarly class, were created during that era. By renouncing Islamic tradition, they are renouncing the legacy of the very people whom they claim to emulate.

"Islam, in our understanding and that of the majority of Muslims, both scholars and non-scholars, is the Islam of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a " The People of the Way of the Prophet and the Community of Muslims. Chief and foremost among them are the true Salaf of Islam: the Companions, the Successors, and their Successors according to the Prophet"s sound hadith in Muslim: "The best century is my century, then the one following it, then the one following that." All the scholars understood by that hadith that the true Salaf were the models of human behavior and correct belief for us Muslims and for all mankind, that to follow them was to follow the Prophet, and that to follow the Prophet was to achieve salvation according to Allah"s order: "Whoever obeys the Prophet obeys Allah" (4:80).

In our time, however, the name Salaf has been usurped by a movement which seeks to impose its own narrow interpretation of Religion towards a re-fashioning of the teachings of Islam. The adherents of this movement call themselves "Salafi." Such an appellation is baseless since the true Salaf knew no such school as the "Salafi" school nor even called themselves by that name; the only general name they recognized for themselves was that of Muslim. As an eminent scholar has stated, the Salafiyya is not a recognized school of thought in Islam, rather, it refers to a blessed historical period of our glorious past.

In reality, today"s so-called "Salafi" movement, now about thirty years old, is the modern outgrowth of an two-century old heresy spawned by a scholar of the Najd area in the Eastern part of the Arabian peninsula by the name of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). This scholar has been refuted by a long line of scholars both in his time and ours. Their names and the titles of some of their excellent refutations are found in the bibliography given at the end of this introduction.

In essence, Salafism and Wahhabism are the same, but the latter is identified by its founder while the former takes the name of the Salaf and makes it its own. Yet both Salafism and Wahhabism depart from the belief and practice of the Salaf, as the present book abundantly makes clear."
http://sunnah.org...

And is eschatology a much bigger motivator today than early on or no?

Eschatology doesn't really hold as much sway in Islam as it does in Christianity, as Muslims don't hold to the Christian understanding of free will.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Fly
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11/3/2015 5:11:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 4:29:28 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/3/2015 1:22:30 AM, Fly wrote:
At 11/1/2015 11:16:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:10:55 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


What are some of the major differences between ISIL and early Sunni Islam-- modern technology aside, of course?

ISIL is Salafist/Wahhabist, so it's unrecognized by more traditional Sunni schools of Islam. One of the biggest reasons for this is the practice of takfir: which is the declaration of another Muslim as an apostate against their will. Islam is different from Christianity in this regard: people aren't supposed to be purged or punished for being the wrong sort of Muslim; those battles are fought intellectually, among the ulama (a class of religious scholar). Another is their rejection of the traditional madhabs, or schools of Islamic law, the use of analogy in legal rulings, and the entire idea of scholarly consensus, all bedrocks of the Islamic tradition.

Salafis compare themselves to the Salaf, or believers during the prophets day, but the comparison is absurd, as the four Madhabs of fiqh, and the scholarly class, were created during that era. By renouncing Islamic tradition, they are renouncing the legacy of the very people whom they claim to emulate.

"Islam, in our understanding and that of the majority of Muslims, both scholars and non-scholars, is the Islam of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a " The People of the Way of the Prophet and the Community of Muslims. Chief and foremost among them are the true Salaf of Islam: the Companions, the Successors, and their Successors according to the Prophet"s sound hadith in Muslim: "The best century is my century, then the one following it, then the one following that." All the scholars understood by that hadith that the true Salaf were the models of human behavior and correct belief for us Muslims and for all mankind, that to follow them was to follow the Prophet, and that to follow the Prophet was to achieve salvation according to Allah"s order: "Whoever obeys the Prophet obeys Allah" (4:80).

In our time, however, the name Salaf has been usurped by a movement which seeks to impose its own narrow interpretation of Religion towards a re-fashioning of the teachings of Islam. The adherents of this movement call themselves "Salafi." Such an appellation is baseless since the true Salaf knew no such school as the "Salafi" school nor even called themselves by that name; the only general name they recognized for themselves was that of Muslim. As an eminent scholar has stated, the Salafiyya is not a recognized school of thought in Islam, rather, it refers to a blessed historical period of our glorious past.

In reality, today"s so-called "Salafi" movement, now about thirty years old, is the modern outgrowth of an two-century old heresy spawned by a scholar of the Najd area in the Eastern part of the Arabian peninsula by the name of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). This scholar has been refuted by a long line of scholars both in his time and ours. Their names and the titles of some of their excellent refutations are found in the bibliography given at the end of this introduction.

In essence, Salafism and Wahhabism are the same, but the latter is identified by its founder while the former takes the name of the Salaf and makes it its own. Yet both Salafism and Wahhabism depart from the belief and practice of the Salaf, as the present book abundantly makes clear."
http://sunnah.org...

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I asked because I have read that ISIL wants to get back to the original interpretation of Islam, and they feel that it has been subverted and diluted over the centuries.

And is eschatology a much bigger motivator today than early on or no?

Eschatology doesn't really hold as much sway in Islam as it does in Christianity, as Muslims don't hold to the Christian understanding of free will.

I have read that eschatology is quite important to ISIL, and that it is one of the reasons it attracts the youthful following that it does. I wasn't sure if this was as true of Islam in its infancy.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
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Skepsikyma
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11/3/2015 11:50:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 5:11:14 AM, Fly wrote:
At 11/3/2015 4:29:28 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In essence, Salafism and Wahhabism are the same, but the latter is identified by its founder while the former takes the name of the Salaf and makes it its own. Yet both Salafism and Wahhabism depart from the belief and practice of the Salaf, as the present book abundantly makes clear."
http://sunnah.org...

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I asked because I have read that ISIL wants to get back to the original interpretation of Islam, and they feel that it has been subverted and diluted over the centuries.

Yeah, that's basically propaganda. It's sort of ironic that Salafism is a bit modern and Western in tenor, with its strident, absolutist, pared down ideology and reliance on things like eschatology and a mass movement mentality. It basically shares the palingenetic ultranationalism that which defines fascism, but on a religious level.

Islam, traditionally, isn't like that at all, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks that Westerners have is their unwarranted assumption that radical Islam is traditional Islam. One incident which limns the situation in rather stark detail is the Salafi belief concerning burials and tombs. Before the Saudis took over the Hejaz (The region which contains Mecca and Medina), it was filled with these stunning, ancient graveyards and gardens which contained the tombs of Muhammad, his companions, his wives, his descendant, and his ancestors. I mean, these sites were Unesco material; beautiful architecture, rich history, and tied into religious tradition. Because Salafists considered these tombs to be idolatrous, the Saudis destroyed a large portion of them, including the tombs of Muhammad's immediate family and his wives. They even planned to destroy Muhammad's tomb itself, but the outcry would have been so immense that they called it off. This event is still highly controversial, and a big sore spot, and just shows how starkly different this new, virulent strain is. Where more traditional forms moderate, build, preserve, cherish, and cultivate their history and traditions, Salafism razes them to the ground in the name of reclaiming an illusory and misrepresented past.

And is eschatology a much bigger motivator today than early on or no?

Eschatology doesn't really hold as much sway in Islam as it does in Christianity, as Muslims don't hold to the Christian understanding of free will.

I have read that eschatology is quite important to ISIL, and that it is one of the reasons it attracts the youthful following that it does. I wasn't sure if this was as true of Islam in its infancy.

No; Christianity was always MUCH more obsessed with the end times. I mean, people in the early Christian world thought that the world was ending, especially since so much of the symbolism in Revelations is Roman in nature.

Terrorists use the black standard, which is considered a symbol of the end times and is prophesied to be planted on Jerusalem (making it a potent symbol for anti-Israel jihadis). But the amount of signs, and their specificity, makes it really difficult to convince anyone who has actually read the prophecies that the end times are coming. And in Islam, most of the theological discussion, historically, has taken place amongst the heavily educated ulama class, who know better. Couple a desperate political situation, religious power vacuums, and an ignorant populace and eschatology becomes a potent propaganda tool.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
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11/4/2015 3:25:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 1:22:30 AM, Fly wrote:

What are some of the major differences between ISIL and early Sunni Islam

- A more adequate question should read: "What are some of the major similarities between ISIL and Sunni Islam?"

modern technology aside, of course?

- Modernity in general, yes. ISIS, like the Salafis, incorporate the western modern view of things to interpret scripture, that is, rebelling against established authority. They basically treat the religion as a consumer product to be handled by whoever.

And is eschatology a much bigger motivator today than early on or no?

- Not necessarily. Eschatology is a trap for the masses, leaders sometimes use it to rise them into some grand design they delude themselves into thinking it is the case. ISIL just happens to be heading in that direction, as many before it did in the past. Traditional scholars are much more composed when it comes to these things, for obvious reasons.

- More importantly, ISIL's claims to eschatology are factually false (the ones I examined at least).
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Yassine
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11/4/2015 3:36:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 11:50:09 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Yeah, that's basically propaganda. It's sort of ironic that Salafism is a bit modern and Western in tenor, with its strident, absolutist, pared down ideology and reliance on things like eschatology and a mass movement mentality. It basically shares the palingenetic ultranationalism that which defines fascism, but on a religious level.

- Wow! Spot on.

Islam, traditionally, isn't like that at all, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks that Westerners have is their unwarranted assumption that radical Islam is traditional Islam. One incident which limns the situation in rather stark detail is the Salafi belief concerning burials and tombs. Before the Saudis took over the Hejaz (The region which contains Mecca and Medina), it was filled with these stunning, ancient graveyards and gardens which contained the tombs of Muhammad, his companions, his wives, his descendant, and his ancestors. I mean, these sites were Unesco material; beautiful architecture, rich history, and tied into religious tradition. Because Salafists considered these tombs to be idolatrous, the Saudis destroyed a large portion of them, including the tombs of Muhammad's immediate family and his wives. They even planned to destroy Muhammad's tomb itself, but the outcry would have been so immense that they called it off. This event is still highly controversial, and a big sore spot, and just shows how starkly different this new, virulent strain is. Where more traditional forms moderate, build, preserve, cherish, and cultivate their history and traditions, Salafism razes them to the ground in the name of reclaiming an illusory and misrepresented past.

- Oh! The horror. I was just talking to my father earlier about the acts of destructions these mad men bring with them, we were comparing them with the Mongols. Imagine something like ISIL emerged in Europe! Its thousands-year History would be blown away in a matter of years!!!!!!!

No; Christianity was always MUCH more obsessed with the end times.

- I wouldn't know about that.

I mean, people in the early Christian world thought that the world was ending, especially since so much of the symbolism in Revelations is Roman in nature.

- Hmm!

Terrorists use the black standard, which is considered a symbol of the end times and is prophesied to be planted on Jerusalem (making it a potent symbol for anti-Israel jihadis).

- I think that's just propaganda to attract new recruits.

But the amount of signs, and their specificity, makes it really difficult to convince anyone who has actually read the prophecies that the end times are coming.

- Indeed.

And in Islam, most of the theological discussion, historically, has taken place amongst the heavily educated ulama class, who know better. Couple a desperate political situation, religious power vacuums, and an ignorant populace and eschatology becomes a potent propaganda tool.

- Couldn't've said it better.
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Skepsikyma
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11/5/2015 4:37:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/4/2015 3:36:38 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/3/2015 11:50:09 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Islam, traditionally, isn't like that at all, and one of the biggest stumbling blocks that Westerners have is their unwarranted assumption that radical Islam is traditional Islam. One incident which limns the situation in rather stark detail is the Salafi belief concerning burials and tombs. Before the Saudis took over the Hejaz (The region which contains Mecca and Medina), it was filled with these stunning, ancient graveyards and gardens which contained the tombs of Muhammad, his companions, his wives, his descendant, and his ancestors. I mean, these sites were Unesco material; beautiful architecture, rich history, and tied into religious tradition. Because Salafists considered these tombs to be idolatrous, the Saudis destroyed a large portion of them, including the tombs of Muhammad's immediate family and his wives. They even planned to destroy Muhammad's tomb itself, but the outcry would have been so immense that they called it off. This event is still highly controversial, and a big sore spot, and just shows how starkly different this new, virulent strain is. Where more traditional forms moderate, build, preserve, cherish, and cultivate their history and traditions, Salafism razes them to the ground in the name of reclaiming an illusory and misrepresented past.

- Oh! The horror. I was just talking to my father earlier about the acts of destructions these mad men bring with them, we were comparing them with the Mongols. Imagine something like ISIL emerged in Europe! Its thousands-year History would be blown away in a matter of years!!!!!!!

The Mongols are an apt comparison, considering what they did to Baghdad. Or the Almoravids, to a lesser degree. It always makes me wince. The destruction of Palmyra, for example, was just grotesque.

No; Christianity was always MUCH more obsessed with the end times.

- I wouldn't know about that.

Yeah, they're crazy like that. The world has been ending for 2,000 years :\
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
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11/5/2015 4:41:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/5/2015 4:37:50 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The Mongols are an apt comparison, considering what they did to Baghdad.

- The did practically the same everywhere they went. ISIS surely is nowhere near the level of destruction the Mongols brought, yet it tends towards them.

Or the Almoravids, to a lesser degree.

- I am not sure what you're referring to here!!!

It always makes me wince. The destruction of Palmyra, for example, was just grotesque.

- They are destroying what they profess to protect without realising it. I don't know if I should feel guilty because I'd much rather have the sanctity of these sites protected than the lives of the people living there.

Yeah, they're crazy like that. The world has been ending for 2,000 years :\

- LOL!!! HAHHAAHAHAHHAH!! Now that you mention it, there is always some program on TV or some articles in the papers about the end being near, in 1999, in 2000, in 2012...
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Fly
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11/5/2015 11:56:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 11:14:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

This isn't really true, in my estimation; could you elaborate? In many ways, the Western Renaissance was sparked by an Islamic Renaissance in both Umayyad al-Andalus and Abbasid Baghdad. What Islam never went through was an Enlightenment, because, well, secular Enlightenment ideals just don't fit well with Islamic society. The foundation which existed in northern Europe just doesn't exist over there.

On another track entirely from my previous questioning, what did Islam "bring to the table" that the two previous Abrahamic faiths did not? What was revelatory about Islam? Or was it more of a geopolitical outcome in the wake of emporor Constantine grown Christianity? Or some whole other thing entirely?
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Skepsikyma
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11/6/2015 1:59:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/5/2015 11:56:58 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/1/2015 11:14:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/1/2015 10:40:05 PM, ironslippers wrote:
This series is most excellent

But what I have noticed about Islam vs Christianity is the lack of Renaissance. I hope that period one day comes to Islam. Eastern religions have always incorporated wisdom into their beliefs.

This isn't really true, in my estimation; could you elaborate? In many ways, the Western Renaissance was sparked by an Islamic Renaissance in both Umayyad al-Andalus and Abbasid Baghdad. What Islam never went through was an Enlightenment, because, well, secular Enlightenment ideals just don't fit well with Islamic society. The foundation which existed in northern Europe just doesn't exist over there.

On another track entirely from my previous questioning, what did Islam "bring to the table" that the two previous Abrahamic faiths did not? What was revelatory about Islam? Or was it more of a geopolitical outcome in the wake of emporor Constantine grown Christianity? Or some whole other thing entirely?

Religiously, it was unique because of a vein of fatalism. In other ways it was really similar to Judaism, when you look at the purely religious aspects, so it was a sort of 'rolling back' of Christian ideas like the Trinity, salvation through faith, and a personal god. When it comes to history, it's most influential contribution, in my opinion, is a political system which allowed it to unite the Middle East and, essentially, pool its resources. Part of this was the ulama, the idea of unity among Muslims, the multiple legal systems permitted under Shari'a, the incorporation of customs even when it contradicted religious belief (like Zoroastrian self-marriage).

It was to the Middle East what Rome was to Europe: a unifying force which gave the history, culture, and sciences a degree of generational permanency. In art, it was legitimately anti-idolatry, so you get really intricate, naturalistic patterns and some of the most beautiful calligraphy in the world. And the spread of Arabic poetry was also incredibly influential (if you didn't know, even pre-Islam, poetry was in the center of Arab life. It was almost sacralized; they had a love affair with their own language.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
GrittyWorm
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11/6/2015 3:00:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.






If I convert to Islam, how do I know when I'm "good enough"? What is the price for my mistakes/sins? Why doesn't a monotheistic Jew go to Allah's Heaven? What if a Buhdist is a way better person than any Muslim? Does he go to Hell? What did the 72 virgins do to deserve being given to an overmasculated oaf? How many s's are in Mississippi if you don't count the one's surrounded by the letter "i"?
Skepsikyma
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11/6/2015 3:34:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:00:35 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


If I convert to Islam, how do I know when I'm "good enough"? What is the price for my mistakes/sins?

It's not definite, more of a thing which you 'work towards,' from what I understand. I don't know a huge amount about the more esoteric religious beliefs; my insight is mostly from a societal and historical perspective. Yassine can answer this one better than I can.

Why doesn't a monotheistic Jew go to Allah's Heaven?

As far as I understand it, he does, so long as he's lived according to his religious teachings. I think that people who believe in the Trinity won't, or maybe the divinity of Jesus, as they both fly in the face of Islam's understanding of God. Yassine can verify, of course.

What if a Buhdist is a way better person than any Muslim? Does he go to Hell?

I think he would go to heaven if he lived a good life, especially if he never received a messenger from God, as Islam sees it. I mean, if he was a better person than any Muslim, that just means that he submitted to God more than any person, from the Muslim standpoint, which is sort of a contradiction.

What did the 72 virgins do to deserve being given to an overmasculated oaf?

That's one weak hadith, and a bad translation of it. Despite this being a popular meme in the West, it has little to do with the Islamic afterlife.

How many s's are in Mississippi if you don't count the one's surrounded by the letter "i"?

That depends on how you define 'surrounded'.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
GrittyWorm
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11/6/2015 3:40:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:34:07 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/6/2015 3:00:35 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 11/1/2015 9:13:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I made a thread a while ago with three videos from this series. The final one was just released, and it covers the origins of the Sunni/Shi'a/Khawarij split, the laying of the stress lines on which the Caliphate would later split, and Muawiyah playing his hand in order to establish the Umayyad Caliphate. It also covers Aisha, her famous march on Basra, and the foundational, important battle which took place there.

Here's the entire series again, including the last one. I hope that it can help dispel the cartoonish impression that people in the West have of Islam, and reinforce the intricacy of its history.


If I convert to Islam, how do I know when I'm "good enough"? What is the price for my mistakes/sins?

It's not definite, more of a thing which you 'work towards,' from what I understand. I don't know a huge amount about the more esoteric religious beliefs; my insight is mostly from a societal and historical perspective. Yassine can answer this one better than I can.

Why doesn't a monotheistic Jew go to Allah's Heaven?

As far as I understand it, he does, so long as he's lived according to his religious teachings. I think that people who believe in the Trinity won't, or maybe the divinity of Jesus, as they both fly in the face of Islam's understanding of God. Yassine can verify, of course.

What if a Buhdist is a way better person than any Muslim? Does he go to Hell?

I think he would go to heaven if he lived a good life, especially if he never received a messenger from God, as Islam sees it. I mean, if he was a better person than any Muslim, that just means that he submitted to God more than any person, from the Muslim standpoint, which is sort of a contradiction.

What did the 72 virgins do to deserve being given to an overmasculated oaf?

That's one weak hadith, and a bad translation of it. Despite this being a popular meme in the West, it has little to do with the Islamic afterlife.

How many s's are in Mississippi if you don't count the one's surrounded by the letter "i"?

That depends on how you define 'surrounded'.

Then it is okay to reject Muhammed as anything special. I don't actually have to take the haj. I don't have to pray towards Mecca. And my faith in Jesus as my savior is perfectly fine, therefore Islam should want tolerate Atheists, Christians and nonbelievers. Glad we cleared that up. Whew.
Skepsikyma
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11/6/2015 3:44:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/5/2015 4:41:59 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/5/2015 4:37:50 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The Mongols are an apt comparison, considering what they did to Baghdad.

- The did practically the same everywhere they went. ISIS surely is nowhere near the level of destruction the Mongols brought, yet it tends towards them.

Or the Almoravids, to a lesser degree.

- I am not sure what you're referring to here!!!

They were a bit puritanical and regressive, compared to other contemporary Islamic societies. They seemed awfully fond of burning books which they disagreed with, for instance.

It always makes me wince. The destruction of Palmyra, for example, was just grotesque.

- They are destroying what they profess to protect without realising it. I don't know if I should feel guilty because I'd much rather have the sanctity of these sites protected than the lives of the people living there.

A person lives for 80 years. History lives forever until it is destroyed. From my stance, they are bringing the most permanent death imaginable to the thousands of people who lived in that city by erasing their legacy. I've heard a saying here, though I can't recall the origin: A man dies twice. Once when he draws his final breath, and again when his name is spoken for the last time.

Yeah, they're crazy like that. The world has been ending for 2,000 years :\

- LOL!!! HAHHAAHAHAHHAH!! Now that you mention it, there is always some program on TV or some articles in the papers about the end being near, in 1999, in 2000, in 2012...

Yeah, it's literally been going on since they crucified Jesus O_O
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
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11/6/2015 3:46:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:40:14 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 11/6/2015 3:34:07 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

It's not definite, more of a thing which you 'work towards,' from what I understand. I don't know a huge amount about the more esoteric religious beliefs; my insight is mostly from a societal and historical perspective. Yassine can answer this one better than I can.

Why doesn't a monotheistic Jew go to Allah's Heaven?

As far as I understand it, he does, so long as he's lived according to his religious teachings. I think that people who believe in the Trinity won't, or maybe the divinity of Jesus, as they both fly in the face of Islam's understanding of God. Yassine can verify, of course.

What if a Buhdist is a way better person than any Muslim? Does he go to Hell?

I think he would go to heaven if he lived a good life, especially if he never received a messenger from God, as Islam sees it. I mean, if he was a better person than any Muslim, that just means that he submitted to God more than any person, from the Muslim standpoint, which is sort of a contradiction.

What did the 72 virgins do to deserve being given to an overmasculated oaf?

That's one weak hadith, and a bad translation of it. Despite this being a popular meme in the West, it has little to do with the Islamic afterlife.

How many s's are in Mississippi if you don't count the one's surrounded by the letter "i"?

That depends on how you define 'surrounded'.

Then it is okay to reject Muhammed as anything special. I don't actually have to take the haj. I don't have to pray towards Mecca. And my faith in Jesus as my savior is perfectly fine, therefore Islam should want tolerate Atheists, Christians and nonbelievers. Glad we cleared that up. Whew.

... Just to clear this up, I'm an atheist. I don't want everyone in the world to become a Muslim; I don't think that that's even a feasible outcome within the next few centuries.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
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11/6/2015 5:05:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:44:01 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

They were a bit puritanical and regressive, compared to other contemporary Islamic societies.

- No, not at all. Religiosity, in this case, has to do with region, not dynasty. The Murabitun ruled vast amounts of lands, with different peoples, often opposite in nature & culture. The bedouins, tribal regions & mountain dwellers lived harsher lives & had a simpler & stricter approach to religion. Those from urban areas, such as Fez, Marrakesh & especially al-Andalus were much more educated & civilised. Some of the greatest scholars emerged in the Murabitun era. In fact, this was the golden era for both the western maliki school, & the andalusian maliki school. It is also the era where Ash'arism spread in Morocco & Andalusia. Yusuf Ibn Tashafin, the foremost ruler among the Murabitun, had constant correspondence with al-Ghazali. Abu Bakr Ibn al-Arabi, student of al-Ghazali, occupied the position of supreme judge under al-Murabitun, so did Ibn Rushd (the grand-father), & so did Q'adi 'Iyad, one of the most celebrated judges in Islamic History. A great number of philosopher, physicians, astronomers, mathematicians, geographers... emerged in that era too. There was of course, Sharif Idrissi (the famous geographer), Ibn Tufayl (the great philosopher & physician), Ibn Baja, Ibn Abideen...

They seemed awfully fond of burning books which they disagreed with, for instance.

- What you're probably referring to is the period of the fall of the Murabitun, i.e. after Yusuf Ibn Tashafin. I also didn't like the fact that they burned the books of al-Ghazali. That doesn't mean it was unjustified. I probably said this before, the practice of burning books was not too uncommon then. The practice was much less present in more stable regions or eras, but in times of instability or disunity, we see more & more of these instances.

A person lives for 80 years. History lives forever until it is destroyed. From my stance, they are bringing the most permanent death imaginable to the thousands of people who lived in that city by erasing their legacy. I've heard a saying here, though I can't recall the origin: A man dies twice. Once when he draws his final breath, and again when his name is spoken for the last time.

- I heard that too, somewhere. :)

Yeah, it's literally been going on since they crucified Jesus O_O

- LOL! Does Christianity have an independent & established science of Eschatology or is it open for all sorts of interpretation?

- In case you're interested, in Islamic Theology, more particularly the branch related to 'Ilm al-Kalam (Science of Discourse), there are 4 (or 5) major sub-branches:
1. Ilahyat (concerned with metaphysics & mainly with the concept of God & His attributes).
2. Nubuwat (concerned with prophethood, prophets, revelation, miracles...).
3. Ghaybyat (concerned with death, the afterlife, the unseen world, the hour, judgement day...).
4. Kawnyat (concerned with the ontology & cosmology of man & the universe, truth, causation, free will...).

- Long story short, in our Eschatology we have 3 types of signs of the last day:

1. Prophecies, which describe events that should occur before the first of the major signs. Here we have:
i. Phasic events, i.e. relating to the Rashidun phase, then the Mulk phase, & then the Mahdi phase.
ii. Eminent events, such as the invasion of the Mongols, the conquest of Constantinople, the rise of the Jews, the conquest of Rome...

2. Minor Signs, which are those that should appear before the first of the major signs. They are around the 140 (or 300, depends on how you look at it). These include:
i. Signs which have already occurred, such as global usury (interest).
ii. Signs which have not yet occurred, such as homosexuality taking over heterosexuality.
iii. Signs which manifest more & more with time, such as the involvement of women in business.

3. Major Signs, which are those who should appear right before the Hour. These are quite clear cut. There is a dozen of them or so. They start with the appearance of al-Mahdi, the great War, the appearance of Dajjal, the descent of the Messiah (Jesus), the rise of Gog & Magog, the great Infestation, the great Flood, the demolition of Kaaba, the Rih & Dukhan & Nar, the Dabba, the Pole Shift, & end with the Hour.

=> Thus, claims to eschatology must conform to the above to be even admitted. Although many of these signs (the majority actually) have occurred, making a case for the end is near is quite the difficult task at this point. Supposing such a proposition creates much more problems than it solves.
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Yassine
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11/6/2015 6:27:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:00:35 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:

If I convert to Islam, how do I know when I'm "good enough"?

- You don't. Salvation in Islam is contingent only on the Mercy of God. In Islam, there is absolutely nothing that guarantees a person's salvation, even if that person is a prophet. It is only through God's Mercy that a person may be saved. Good deeds, however, are factors to decide a person's rank in the afterlife, but do not guarantee it. The idea is, an individual must submit to God's Will in all cases, hope for His Benevolence & fear His Wrath, all the time. No one is ever safe from God, not even the prophets.

What is the price for my mistakes/sins?

- Repentance wipes out all sins. The Qur'an decrees that only those with pure hearts may enter Heaven, thus in case there is impurity in the individual's heart, he is to be cleansed in the Fire first, then may be eligible to enter Heaven.

Why doesn't a monotheistic Jew go to Allah's Heaven?

- Here there are two cases:
1. The jew heard the message of Islam & rejected it.
2. The jew did not hear the message of Islam.
=> In the first case, there is no plea, for the argument has been laid against him. In the second case, there is no prior argument against the jew, thus God will test him & judge him according to his beliefs & deeds in the afterlife. This also applies for Christians as well, or any non-muslims in general.

What if a Buhdist is a way better person than any Muslim?

- In Islam, only good deeds with right intentions are valid. The right intentions are those solely in the cause of God. Good deeds without right intentions are invalid, thus, bear rewards only in this life, but none in the afterlife. A buddhist may very well do more good deeds than many muslims, but he'll be rewarded for them only in this life, not in the next.

Does he go to Hell?

- This again falls into the previous dilemma. If the said buddhist heard the message of Islam & rejected it, then he has no plea. If he didn't hear it, his deeds will be judged accordingly.

What did the 72 virgins do to deserve being given to an overmasculated oaf?

- No such thing as 72 virgins!!! I think Skep answered this impeccably.
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11/6/2015 6:48:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 3:40:14 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:

Then it is okay to reject Muhammed as anything special.

- Ah no. Hearing about the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) & rejecting it, means no plea in the afterlife. Only those who have never heard his message, or heard a distorted version of it may be excused. In the Islamic worldview, this also applies before the time of Muhammad (pbuh), & for all the other prophets:
* "And never would We punish until We sent a messenger." (17:15)
* The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire." [Muslim #153]

I don't actually have to take the haj. I don't have to pray towards Mecca.

- That's your choice, evidently.

And my faith in Jesus as my savior is perfectly fine,

- According to Islam, not if you heard message of the Prophet (pbuh).

therefore Islam should want tolerate Atheists, Christians and nonbelievers.

- Islam tolerates unconditionally peaceful non-believers (atheists, christians or otherwise) in this life, but it only tolerates fatalistic ignorance in the afterlife.

Glad we cleared that up. Whew.

- It seems you had many other misconceptions I just happen to clear up.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...