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Have your beliefs changed?

Benshapiro
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11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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11/9/2015 12:33:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Ignorance of moral views --> Ethical naturalism;
weak Rationalism --> Empiricism
agnosticism --> weak atheism --> strong atheism (theistic gods)

It is difficult for me to state my exact starting positions because much of it I had not examined before. My current positions listed are more or less accurate, but by no means immutable.
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RuvDraba
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11/9/2015 12:37:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 12:33:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

That's interesting, Skep. I realise it may be off-topic for this thread, but was that a natural result of exploring the questions, or were there arguments/discussions that illuminated matters for you?

Thank you to Ben for the thread also.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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11/9/2015 3:31:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 12:37:19 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 11/9/2015 12:33:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

That's interesting, Skep. I realise it may be off-topic for this thread, but was that a natural result of exploring the questions, or were there arguments/discussions that illuminated matters for you?

The short answer is "Yes" to both. I only became a non believer about 7 years ago, and up until that time I had accepted many things unquestioned. So, I have tried to research areas that obviously needed examination, and have picked up others I was unaware of from conversations/arguments. It is still very much a work in progress.

Thank you to Ben for the thread also.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
popculturepooka
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11/9/2015 4:13:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Too many to name:

A big one that came especially from my talks with a lot of members (and ungodly amounts of reading/thinking).

ECT (eternal conscious torment) to universalism
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Insignifica
Posts: 285
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11/9/2015 4:50:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Nope. Reading and discussing things on here has only further confirmed my belief that most philosophical questions can't be resolved in any conclusive way, given our current level of knowledge.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/9/2015 6:27:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Strong empiricism -> Rationalism

Naturalism -> Non-naturalism

Utilitarianism -> Intuitionism

Property dualism -> Physicalism

Scientific Realism -> Antirealism -> Realism

Slight Skepticism -> Confident Realism
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
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: space contradicts logic
kasmic
Posts: 1,315
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11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

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Skepticalone
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11/9/2015 7:14:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Ahh, that explains why I am always surprised by which side of the arguments you are backing. I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I remember you being a theist.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
kasmic
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11/9/2015 7:19:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 7:14:06 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Ahh, that explains why I am always surprised by which side of the arguments you are backing. I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I remember you being a theist.

Well, I am always arguing positions i dont agree with as well, so could be confusing.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Benshapiro
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11/9/2015 10:45:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Out of curiosity what was the most convincing argument that changed your mind?
kasmic
Posts: 1,315
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11/9/2015 11:16:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:45:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Out of curiosity what was the most convincing argument that changed your mind?

My transition was a culmination of many conversations and arguments.

1: The P.O.E. I had a debate with Fkkize (http://www.debate.org...)

This debate alone did not convince me, but it did bring up some important questions. It lead me to do more research and it does seem that if there is a God he is either incompetent or evil.

2: Faith as a concept is irrational. I came to this conclusion over months of trying to be "faithful."I noticed more and more that theists tend to have certainty without any proof and that bothered me.

3: I was studying epistimol0gy and my concept of "knowing" changed drastically. From which I concluded that when people say they know something, they typically mean they believe something.

All included I realized my faith since birth irrational and if even rational misplaced, as God is incompetent or evil. I realized that I did not know a God existed, and those who claim to dont either.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
difference
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11/9/2015 11:49:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 11:16:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/9/2015 10:45:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Out of curiosity what was the most convincing argument that changed your mind?

My transition was a culmination of many conversations and arguments.

1: The P.O.E. I had a debate with Fkkize (http://www.debate.org...)

This debate alone did not convince me, but it did bring up some important questions. It lead me to do more research and it does seem that if there is a God he is either incompetent or evil.

2: Faith as a concept is irrational. I came to this conclusion over months of trying to be "faithful."I noticed more and more that theists tend to have certainty without any proof and that bothered me.

3: I was studying epistimol0gy and my concept of "knowing" changed drastically. From which I concluded that when people say they know something, they typically mean they believe something.


What I understood as knowing changed in my time here too, mostly from reading vi_spex.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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11/10/2015 12:37:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 11:16:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/9/2015 10:45:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

- When did that happen? Last time I checked you were Christian! (at least according to your profile).

My transition was a culmination of many conversations and arguments.

- Pardon my intrusion. I wish to discuss your views further if you don't mind.

1: The P.O.E. I had a debate with Fkkize (http://www.debate.org...)

This debate alone did not convince me, but it did bring up some important questions. It lead me to do more research and it does seem that if there is a God he is either incompetent or evil.

- The POE is a problematic related to Christianity, not necessarily extended to other religions, & definitely not to Islam. If you believe the POF to be valid, then your conclusion must relate only to the concept of God as described by the Church, not to the concept itself.

2: Faith as a concept is irrational.

- Not necessarily. It is not entirely rational, yes, but that does not entail the removal of rationale from it!

I came to this conclusion over months of trying to be "faithful."I noticed more and more that theists tend to have certainty without any proof and that bothered me.

- Appeal to the masses. There are likely equal quantities of atheists (or any other combination of people) who hold certainties without any proof. Unless you're generalising, in which case your remark is simply untrue.

3: I was studying epistimol0gy and my concept of "knowing" changed drastically. From which I concluded that when people say they know something, they typically mean they believe something.

- That doesn't have to be the case, & why is it relevant anyway?!

All included I realized my faith since birth irrational and if even rational misplaced, as God is incompetent or evil.

- Again, you're referring to God as portrayed by the Church. It is indeed irrational to extend your conclusion to God, any other god.

I realised that I did not know a God existed,

- Christian God*.

and those who claim to don't either.

- How do you justify this generalisation?
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Yassine
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11/10/2015 12:40:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

- Not a single one, no. I realise this is because of the nature of the environment here, which is far removed from my own worldview. Seldom new ideas resonate with me here.
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kasmic
Posts: 1,315
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11/10/2015 8:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 12:37:07 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/9/2015 11:16:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/9/2015 10:45:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

- When did that happen? Last time I checked you were Christian! (at least according to your profile).

I updated my profile about 4 months ago.

My transition was a culmination of many conversations and arguments.

- Pardon my intrusion. I wish to discuss your views further if you don't mind.

1: The P.O.E. I had a debate with Fkkize (http://www.debate.org...)

This debate alone did not convince me, but it did bring up some important questions. It lead me to do more research and it does seem that if there is a God he is either incompetent or evil.

- The POE is a problematic related to Christianity, not necessarily extended to other religions, & definitely not to Islam. If you believe the POF to be valid, then your conclusion must relate only to the concept of God as described by the Church, not to the concept itself.

I see your point here, the POE only applies to a Omnipotent, Omniscient, morally perfect God. Perhaps there is a God that is not one or more of those things. Why would I worship a God that is not perfect?

2: Faith as a concept is irrational.

- Not necessarily. It is not entirely rational, yes, but that does not entail the removal of rationale from it!

I came to this conclusion over months of trying to be "faithful."I noticed more and more that theists tend to have certainty without any proof and that bothered me.

- Appeal to the masses. There are likely equal quantities of atheists (or any other combination of people) who hold certainties without any proof. Unless you're generalising, in which case your remark is simply untrue.

Sure, however having mostly intermingled with theist, that observation is in reference to my personal experience and the people I have encountered.

3: I was studying epistimol0gy and my concept of "knowing" changed drastically. From which I concluded that when people say they know something, they typically mean they believe something.

- That doesn't have to be the case, & why is it relevant anyway?!

Its relevant because I no longer claim to "know" God exists.

All included I realized my faith since birth irrational and if even rational misplaced, as God is incompetent or evil.

- Again, you're referring to God as portrayed by the Church. It is indeed irrational to extend your conclusion to God, any other god.

I suppose I already responded to this above.

I realised that I did not know a God existed,

- Christian God*.

Any God that is Omniscient, omnipotent and morally perfect.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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11/10/2015 10:04:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Not at all. I have an open mind to new ideas and am always looking to advance myself spiritually. It is impossible to debate or discuss or argue with people who are stuck in their religious dogma. They stick to their holy books as being the end all, be all of truth and throw out quote after quote as their proof They can't see past it. It's useless to even engage. I've got to hand it to some of the Muslims on this board. they take the most crap and vitriol thrown at them and most, not all don't get too excited. One born again Christian was almost threatening people and he even posted a thread to see if anyone agreed with him in his assertion that it might be ok to slap someone in the head if they insulted his religion. Maybe the odd jihadist on this site wished for more if his religion was insulted, but at least nothing was said, except for one, who thinks it's ok for radicals to kill if Islam is insulted. Any more out there?
Yassine
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11/10/2015 10:07:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 8:34:59 PM, kasmic wrote:

I updated my profile about 4 months ago.

- Woah! Time flies fast.

I see your point here, the POE only applies to a Omnipotent, Omniscient, morally perfect God. Perhaps there is a God that is not one or more of those things. Why would I worship a God that is not perfect?

- That would depend on the definition of 'perfect' you're opting for. In our worldview, it is not that God is perfect only, but what is perfect is God as well. Thus, whatever other than God is not perfect.

- More importantly, if you worship God for a reason other than Him being God, then you're in effect worshipping that reason & not God, for in the absence of that reason, God per se wouldn't deserve your worship.

- A truly absolute God does whatever He pleases & is not contingent on any moral restrictions or otherwise. God can punish the saint & reward the sinner. God can create man & destroy him whenever & however He pleases. Why not?

Sure, however having mostly intermingled with theist, that observation is in reference to my personal experience and the people I have encountered.

- How is that a justified ground for changing your beliefs?

Its relevant because I no longer claim to "know" God exists.

- I meant other people's claims of knowledge.

Any God that is Omniscient, omnipotent and morally perfect.

- Morally perfect is a subjective designation, which also makes God a contingent being.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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11/10/2015 10:09:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 7:19:37 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/9/2015 7:14:06 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 11/9/2015 6:39:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 11/8/2015 10:47:54 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Have your philosophical/religious views changed during your time on debate.org? I used to be a dualist but came to the conclusion that idealism is more plausible (thanks to Zmike). What about you?

Drastically, I went from theism to atheism.

Ahh, that explains why I am always surprised by which side of the arguments you are backing. I guess somewhere in the back of my mind I remember you being a theist.

Well, I am always arguing positions i dont agree with as well, so could be confusing.

Got to keep 'em guessing! ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten