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Yassine
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11/10/2015 2:27:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
- It's been a while since I made a thread. My internet is working again after a long month, & I have some free time in my hands. Please suggest a topic, any topic, Islam related, & I shall display it for you in my next thread.

- If you don't have something in mind, please select one of the following topics. So far, I've been hesitant to make a choice:

1. Free Will In Islam.
2. Fatalism In Islam.
3. Problem Of Evil In Islam.
4. Apostasy In Isalm.
5. Freedom Of Religion In Islam.
6. Marriage/Divorce In Isalm.
7. Punishment In Islam.
8. Penalties In Islam.

=> Upon choosing a topic, please indicate what relevant aspects you think should be brought up in relation to the topic.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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11/10/2015 3:38:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:27:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
- It's been a while since I made a thread. My internet is working again after a long month, & I have some free time in my hands. Please suggest a topic, any topic, Islam related, & I shall display it for you in my next thread.

- If you don't have something in mind, please select one of the following topics. So far, I've been hesitant to make a choice:

1. Free Will In Islam.
2. Fatalism In Islam.
3. Problem Of Evil In Islam.
4. Apostasy In Isalm.
5. Freedom Of Religion In Islam.
6. Marriage/Divorce In Isalm.
7. Punishment In Islam.
8. Penalties In Islam.

=> Upon choosing a topic, please indicate what relevant aspects you think should be brought up in relation to the topic.

Apostacy. There are Islamic countries where the law states that leaving the religion is punishable by death (Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan). These laws are not often applied, but when polls are taken, a large percentage of Muslims (88% in Egypt and 62% of Pakistanis) support the death penalty for apostacy. The percentage is high in other countries but very low in Albania and Russia among the Muslim populations. This may be partially attributed to culture or because of the Muslim population in both countries either being a small minority in Russia or a small majority in Albania, and both being secular European states.

Any religion and I mean any religion that feels it needs to force people to stay in the religion or forcibly converts people to it is basically insecure. It is incomprehensible to Westerners, whether practicing Christians or not that ones freedom of religion would be taken away or as in some Muslim countries, not granted.
Yassine
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11/10/2015 3:47:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 3:38:19 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

Apostacy. There are Islamic countries where the law states that leaving the religion is punishable by death (Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan). These laws are not often applied, but when polls are taken, a large percentage of Muslims (88% in Egypt and 62% of Pakistanis) support the death penalty for apostacy. The percentage is high in other countries but very low in Albania and Russia among the Muslim populations. This may be partially attributed to culture or because of the Muslim population in both countries either being a small minority in Russia or a small majority in Albania, and both being secular European states.

- I was hoping to talk about Apostasy in Islam, not apostasy laws in muslim current societies. But sure, have at it.

Any religion and I mean any religion that feels it needs to force people to stay in the religion or forcibly converts people to it is basically insecure.

- True, indeed.

It is incomprehensible to Westerners, whether practicing Christians or not that ones freedom of religion would be taken away or as in some Muslim countries, not granted.

- One: Christianity & Judaism decree the death penalty for apostasy as well, that's just a fact. Two: that which is not comprehended by one, is indeed incomprehensible to one. Three: what exactly do you mean by 'taken away' or 'granted'?
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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lotsoffun
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11/10/2015 4:39:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 3:47:17 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 3:38:19 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

Apostasy. There are Islamic countries where the law states that leaving the religion is punishable by death (Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan). These laws are not often applied, but when polls are taken, a large percentage of Muslims (88% in Egypt and 62% of Pakistanis) support the death penalty for apostasy. The percentage is high in other countries but very low in Albania and Russia among the Muslim populations. This may be partially attributed to culture or because of the Muslim population in both countries either being a small minority in Russia or a small majority in Albania, and both being secular European states.

- I was hoping to talk about Apostasy in Islam, not apostasy laws in Muslim current societies. But sure, have at it.

Any religion and I mean any religion that feels it needs to force people to stay in the religion or forcibly converts people to it is basically insecure.

- True, indeed.

It is incomprehensible to Westerners, whether practicing Christians or not that ones freedom of religion would be taken away or as in some Muslim countries, not granted.

- One: Christianity & Judaism decree the death penalty for apostasy as well, that's just a fact. Two: that which is not comprehended by one, is indeed incomprehensible to one. Three: what exactly do you mean by 'taken away' or 'granted'?

No Christian country kills anyone for leaving Christianity and Christians don't call for it. The religion has evolved enough so it doesn't take any passages that might call for barbaric actions, seriously. Even literalists or born agains don't call for someone's death if they leave. Some cults may be more harsh, but these are very, very small cults that attract disturbed or lost people.

In western countries we have freedom of religion. We can move into or out of any religion we choose. It is our right. It's guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and the U.S. first amendment as well as all European civil rights laws.

Even you must know that some Muslim states have no tolerance for any religion other than Islam, which is identified as the official religion. In those countries The right to practice Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism is not tolerated and not GRANTED. Christianity is being wiped out in the Middle East. It preceded Islam by 700 years, as you know. There are not too many secular Muslim dominated countries. Albania is one.
Yassine
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11/10/2015 7:58:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 4:39:07 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

No Christian country kills anyone for leaving Christianity and Christians don't call for it.

- Untrue. Many african Christian countries do indeed.

The religion has evolved enough so it doesn't take any passages that might call for barbaric actions, seriously.

- According to who?

Even literalists or born agains don't call for someone's death if they leave.

- Maybe not the US, which I doubt. That doesn't necessarily apply for every Christian majority country in the World!

Some cults may be more harsh, but these are very, very small cults that attract disturbed or lost people.

- Cults hardly have any authority on the religion. I am more concerned with the position of the Church itself.

In western countries we have freedom of religion.

- So do virtually all countries of the World.

We can move into or out of any religion we choose. It is our right. It's guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and the U.S. first amendment as well as all European civil rights laws.

- Again, that's the case for almost all other countries.

Even you must know that some Muslim states have no tolerance for any religion other than Islam, which is identified as the official religion.

- I don't know any such state. Could you give me an example?

In those countries The right to practice Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism is not tolerated and not GRANTED.

- What countries are these?

Christianity is being wiped out in the Middle East.

- Untrue. Currently over 5% of the population there is Christian, down from 20% of the population early 20th century (due to Arab diaspora).

It preceded Islam by 700 years, as you know.

- Evidently.

There are not too many secular Muslim dominated countries. Albania is one.

- Untrue. Most Muslim majority countries are in fact secular states.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Fly
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11/10/2015 8:10:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:27:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
- It's been a while since I made a thread. My internet is working again after a long month, & I have some free time in my hands. Please suggest a topic, any topic, Islam related, & I shall display it for you in my next thread.

- If you don't have something in mind, please select one of the following topics. So far, I've been hesitant to make a choice:

1. Free Will In Islam.
2. Fatalism In Islam.
3. Problem Of Evil In Islam.
4. Apostasy In Isalm.
5. Freedom Of Religion In Islam.
6. Marriage/Divorce In Isalm.
7. Punishment In Islam.
8. Penalties In Islam.

=> Upon choosing a topic, please indicate what relevant aspects you think should be brought up in relation to the topic.

Following up on my questions in Skep's thread, I am interested in 2. Please define fatalism, how is it beneficial, and where/how is it taught in the Quran?

Also, 5 makes me curious, as it is never really talked about, except for perhaps merely one line in the Quran-- "there is no compulsion in religion."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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11/10/2015 8:13:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 7:58:40 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 4:39:07 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

No Christian country kills anyone for leaving Christianity and Christians don't call for it.

- Untrue. Many african Christian countries do indeed.

The religion has evolved enough so it doesn't take any passages that might call for barbaric actions, seriously.

- According to who?

Even literalists or born agains don't call for someone's death if they leave.

- Maybe not the US, which I doubt. That doesn't necessarily apply for every Christian majority country in the World!

Some cults may be more harsh, but these are very, very small cults that attract disturbed or lost people.

- Cults hardly have any authority on the religion. I am more concerned with the position of the Church itself.

In western countries we have freedom of religion.

- So do virtually all countries of the World.

We can move into or out of any religion we choose. It is our right. It's guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and the U.S. first amendment as well as all European civil rights laws.

- Again, that's the case for almost all other countries.

Even you must know that some Muslim states have no tolerance for any religion other than Islam, which is identified as the official religion.

- I don't know any such state. Could you give me an example?

In those countries The right to practice Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism is not tolerated and not GRANTED.

- What countries are these?

Christianity is being wiped out in the Middle East.

- Untrue. Currently over 5% of the population there is Christian, down from 20% of the population early 20th century (due to Arab diaspora).

It preceded Islam by 700 years, as you know.

- Evidently.

There are not too many secular Muslim dominated countries. Albania is one.

- Untrue. Most Muslim majority countries are in fact secular states.

I have to call BS on this claim. There are 15, and the claims to secularity of some can be debated even then:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,855
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11/10/2015 9:10:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:27:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
- It's been a while since I made a thread. My internet is working again after a long month, & I have some free time in my hands. Please suggest a topic, any topic, Islam related, & I shall display it for you in my next thread.

- If you don't have something in mind, please select one of the following topics. So far, I've been hesitant to make a choice:

1. Free Will In Islam.
2. Fatalism In Islam.
3. Problem Of Evil In Islam.
4. Apostasy In Isalm.
5. Freedom Of Religion In Islam.
6. Marriage/Divorce In Isalm.
7. Punishment In Islam.
8. Penalties In Islam.

=> Upon choosing a topic, please indicate what relevant aspects you think should be brought up in relation to the topic.

Presuming you're Sunni, do you believe Shiites and Ibadis are filthy heretics that should be eradicated?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:10:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 8:13:01 PM, Fly wrote:

I have to call BS on this claim. There are 15, and the claims to secularity of some can be debated even then:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

- The article mentions 20 not 15, add to those the other African countries (except Morocco & Mauritania), & south-each asian countries. You'd be left only with the Gulf states, Morocco, Mauritania & Iran. The others are war zones with no proper sovereignty & no organised state.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:13:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 8:54:43 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
- Untrue. Most Muslim majority countries are in fact secular states.

Which ones?

- Save the kingdoms, all of them (with the exception of one or two).
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:16:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:10:00 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

Presuming you're Sunni,

- I am ; Maliki/Ash'ari to be precise.

do you believe Shiites and Ibadis are filthy heretics that should be eradicated?

- On the contrary, for doing so is heresy in itself.
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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tajshar2k
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11/10/2015 9:17:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:13:15 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:54:43 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
- Untrue. Most Muslim majority countries are in fact secular states.

Which ones?

- Save the kingdoms, all of them (with the exception of one or two).

Can you list them, and provide sources to prove your claim?
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:18:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:17:06 PM, tajshar2k wrote:

Can you list them, and provide sources to prove your claim?

- Check previous comments, someone posted a wikipedia link.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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PetersSmith
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11/10/2015 9:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:16:09 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 9:10:00 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

Presuming you're Sunni,

- I am ; Maliki/Ash'ari to be precise.

do you believe Shiites and Ibadis are filthy heretics that should be eradicated?

- On the contrary, for doing so is heresy in itself.

The branches of Islam most likely will never unite, so how do you deal with this situation?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:29:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:20:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The branches of Islam most likely will never unite,

- No, they won't.

so how do you deal with this situation?

- It is not meant to be dealt with. Difference of opinion (valid opinions) is a welcome & encouraged practice in the Islamic Tradition. This ensures a more flexible thus & more adaptable & persistent approach to the religion. The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "difference of opinion is mercy". People are ever bound to disagree, that's just a human condition. They are bound to have different views, for they come from different set set of circumstances...

- Having different sects or schools of thought is ultimately a good thing, granted the basis of tolerance, of reason, of moderation... are established.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
PetersSmith
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11/10/2015 9:31:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:29:07 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 9:20:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The branches of Islam most likely will never unite,

- No, they won't.

so how do you deal with this situation?

- It is not meant to be dealt with. Difference of opinion (valid opinions) is a welcome & encouraged practice in the Islamic Tradition. This ensures a more flexible thus & more adaptable & persistent approach to the religion. The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "difference of opinion is mercy". People are ever bound to disagree, that's just a human condition. They are bound to have different views, for they come from different set set of circumstances...

- Having different sects or schools of thought is ultimately a good thing, granted the basis of tolerance, of reason, of moderation... are established.

Doesn't the difference in opinion cause many conflicts though? There doesn't seem to be much tolerance between the sects, especially in regards to the Sunni-Shia conflicts.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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11/10/2015 9:44:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 7:58:40 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 4:39:07 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

No Christian country kills anyone for leaving Christianity and Christians don't call for it.

- Untrue. Many african Christian countries do indeed.

Ok, what I meant to say is any civilized Christian country. Western countries, although having Christianity as itheir dominant religion, are secular and most don't believe in the darker passages of the Bible.


The religion has evolved enough so it doesn't take any passages that might call for barbaric actions, seriously.

- According to who?

See above. I was brought up in Christianity. I never heard anyone ever state that someone should be killed for leaving the church or the religion. Never heard of it-not from any Christian leader, Never. That's why I mentioned cults.....because sometimes it might come from those sources.


Even literalists or born agains don't call for someone's death if they leave.

- Maybe not the US, which I doubt. That doesn't necessarily apply for every Christian majority country in the World!

The U.S . and every civilized western country. We must make a distinction between Western countries and so called Christian countries. Western countries were founded by Christins or Pagans before Christianity. Christianity provides the moral compass through Jesus' teachings. Religion is dying in the westt, Many people take up a new spirituality. (I don't expect religious adherents to understand). The Catholic Church, which represents the majority of Christians, but certainly not tens of millions of others, doesn't call for someone's death. They excemunicate, which is a far cry from killing.


Some cults may be more harsh, but these are very, very small cults that attract disturbed or lost people.

- Cults hardly have any authority on the religion. I am more concerned with the position of the Church itself.

see above

In western countries we have freedom of religion.

- So do virtually all countries of the World.

All Christian countries. Not Muslim countries. Why is Christianity being wiped out in the Middle East, if there is true religious freedom? Why are Jews so despised?

We can move into or out of any religion we choose. It is our right. It's guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and the U.S. first amendment as well as all European civil rights laws.

- Again, that's the case for almost all other countries.

Even you must know that some Muslim states have no tolerance for any religion other than Islam, which is identified as the official religion.

- I don't know any such state. Could you give me an example?

Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan,



It preceded Islam by 700 years, as you know.

- Evidently.


There are not too many secular Muslim dominated countries. Albania is one.

- Untrue. Most Muslim majority countries are in fact secular states.

Not true. Some are Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran and Mauritania. Others have Islam as the state religion, whereby sharia may or may not be used, Some of these states are: Libya, Somalia, Tunisia, Algeria, etc. UAE has Islam as the state religion, but is fairly tolerant of other religions. I am not painting all of Islam with the same brush, but it is made up of individuals, as are all religions. Polls taken show that the attitudes towards apostasy of too high percentages of citizens is sometimes from another century.
Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:47:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:31:55 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

Doesn't the difference in opinion cause many conflicts though?

- Difference of opinion may intensify the conflicts, but it does not cause them. Bad politics do.

There doesn't seem to be much tolerance between the sects, especially in regards to the Sunni-Shia conflicts.

- That's just a very recent thing. The Sunnis & Shiis have lived peacefully with each-other for most of Islamic History, with probably one notable exception: the Ottomans vs. the Safavids.

- The label 'Sunni-Shia split' holds very little meaning. The inter-workings & history of Islamic schools, sects, orders, political movements... that relate to Sunna & Shi'a are too convoluted for such a label to make any sense. Generally, the Sunni-Shi'a conflict refers to tensions between post-Khumayni Iran & Wahabi Saudi Arabia.

- More importantly, people will find reasons to fight even if without reasons. The truth is, the conflicts between Sunnis themselves are much more significant than the conflicts between Sunnis & Shi'is. But, that's just bad politics, despotism & failed government. What I am more referring to has to do with the scholarly & religious realm, not the political realm.
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
lotsoffun
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11/10/2015 9:48:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:29:07 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 9:20:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The branches of Islam most likely will never unite,

- No, they won't.

so how do you deal with this situation?

- It is not meant to be dealt with. Difference of opinion (valid opinions) is a welcome & encouraged practice in the Islamic Tradition. This ensures a more flexible thus & more adaptable & persistent approach to the religion. The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "difference of opinion is mercy". People are ever bound to disagree, that's just a human condition. They are bound to have different views, for they come from different set set of circumstances...

- Having different sects or schools of thought is ultimately a good thing, granted the basis of tolerance, of reason, of moderation... are established.

You are painting too rosey a situation. Face it, Sunnis and Shia despise each other. By the way, a huge number of Shia are not that religious and have taken on western values despite the miserable theocracy that enslaves them. Talking about Iran.
Fly
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11/10/2015 9:51:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:10:30 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:13:01 PM, Fly wrote:

I have to call BS on this claim. There are 15, and the claims to secularity of some can be debated even then:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

- The article mentions 20 not 15, add to those the other African countries (except Morocco & Mauritania), & south-each asian countries. You'd be left only with the Gulf states, Morocco, Mauritania & Iran. The others are war zones with no proper sovereignty & no organised state.

Ah... I count 15 in the list in the article. I don't know what the other 5 are. Also, how many of those secular states are actually secular dictatorships where all is not swell? Iran was secular under the Shah, and it was not satisfactory for its populace. Same goes for pre invasion Iraq.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
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Yassine
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11/10/2015 9:56:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:51:34 PM, Fly wrote:

Ah... I count 15 in the list in the article. I don't know what the other 5 are.

- Egypt & the others.

Also, how many of those secular states are actually secular dictatorships where all is not swell?

- Most actually.

Iran was secular under the Shah, and it was not satisfactory for its populace. Same goes for pre invasion Iraq.

- Indeed. Secular =/= good! The URSS & the PRC (China) were horrible secular states as well. Secular state-ship is a governmental/political system, it could good & beneficial as it could be bad & harmful.
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Yassine
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11/10/2015 10:36:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:44:13 PM, lotsoffun wrote:

Ok, what I meant to say is any civilized Christian country. Western countries, although having Christianity as their dominant religion, are secular and most don't believe in the darker passages of the Bible.

- Civilised in what sense? The colonial powers were civilised Christian countries & didn't mind these 'barbaric' acts one bit. More so, these countries happened to inflict the most of human suffering these last couple of centuries. & now, they are still supporting tyrannies, exploiting nations, & starting wars all over the place.

See above. I was brought up in Christianity. I never heard anyone ever state that someone should be killed for leaving the church or the religion. Never heard of it-not from any Christian leader, Never. That's why I mentioned cults.....because sometimes it might come from those sources.

- I doubt the Pope takes any passages of the Bible lightly!

The U.S . and every civilized western country. We must make a distinction between Western countries and so called Christian countries. Western countries were founded by Christins or Pagans before Christianity. Christianity provides the moral compass through Jesus' teachings. Religion is dying in the westt, Many people take up a new spirituality. (I don't expect religious adherents to understand). The Catholic Church, which represents the majority of Christians, but certainly not tens of millions of others, doesn't call for someone's death. They excemunicate, which is a far cry from killing.

- I have nothing against the Church. I think, overall, it's doing Good. Excommunicating an apostate, in the current western state of affairs, sounds like a reasonable approach.

All Christian countries. Not Muslim countries.

- Untrue.

Why is Christianity being wiped out in the Middle East, if there is true religious freedom?

- It isn't. As I said, 5% of the population in the ME is Christian.

Why are Jews so despised?

- Zionists, not Jews. Jews who defend Palestine are loved by the muslim community.

Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan,

- Untrue. There are tons of Christians in these countries.

Not true. Some are Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran and Mauritania. Others have Islam as the state religion, whereby sharia may or may not be used, Some of these states are: Libya, Somalia, Tunisia, Algeria, etc. UAE has Islam as the state religion, but is fairly tolerant of other religions.

- Recognising one or multiple religions (such as the case of India) as a state religion doesn't make the state non-secular! Secularism has many forms. Libya, Tunisia, Algeria... are openly secular states.

I am not painting all of Islam with the same brush, but it is made up of individuals, as are all religions.

- We're not even talking about Islam. We're talking about current muslim majority states.

Polls taken show that the attitudes towards apostasy of too high percentages of citizens is sometimes from another century.

- Sure. People in Muslim countries (or sub-saharan Christian countries) generally like to take their religion very seriously, they dislike seeing their own kin openly tarnishing it & shifting their allegiance to the enemy, christians & muslims alike. Much like you in the West hate seeing your own kin openly tarnishing your national values & allying with your enemies.
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Yassine
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11/10/2015 10:46:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 9:48:19 PM, lotsoffun wrote:

You are painting too rosey a situation.

- On the contrary.

Face it, Sunnis and Shia despise each other.

- Many do indeed, due to current politics. But they are not supposed to! I am speackig from scholarly stance, not a political one.

By the way, a huge number of Shia are not that religious and have taken on western values

- OK.

despite the miserable theocracy that enslaves them. Talking about Iran.

- I doubt the overwhelming majority of Shi'a would agree with you here. After all, nowadays Iran is a product of the populace against tyranny. Plus, Iran is not as bad as your media led you to believe, it has many problems sure, everybody does, but it's much better than you think.
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lotsoffun
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11/10/2015 11:18:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 10:36:30 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 9:44:13 PM, lotsoffun wrote:

Ok, what I meant to say is any civilized Christian country. Western countries, although having Christianity as their dominant religion, are secular and most don't believe in the darker passages of the Bible.

- Civilised in what sense? The colonial powers were civilised Christian countries & didn't mind these 'barbaric' acts one bit. More so, these countries happened to inflict the most of human suffering these last couple of centuries. & now, they are still supporting tyrannies, exploiting nations, & starting wars all over the place.

Yes, the west has done all those things and the U.S. is responsible for much of it. The U.S. is not the entire west. We have created peaceful societies, with problems of course. but It is your people that flock to our lands. We don't emigrate to yours. that speaks for itself.
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See above. I was brought up in Christianity. I never heard anyone ever state that someone should be killed for leaving the church or the religion. Never heard of it-not from any Christian leader, Never. That's why I mentioned cults.....because sometimes it might come from those sources.

- I doubt the Pope takes any passages of the Bible lightly!

I stand by what I said. How many Muslim leaders have come out with outlandish statements of hatred and scorn for all those not Muslim and calling for the complete takeover of the world. How many scum jihadists living in the west are allowed to stand in our midst and insult us and spit on our soldiers and call for the death of our nations? If they were Christian and did that in Muslim countries, they'd be dead.. Too many. You can see their speeches all over YouTube.


The U.S . and every civilized western country. We must make a distinction between Western countries and so called Christian countries. Western countries were founded by Christins or Pagans before Christianity. Christianity provides the moral compass through Jesus' teachings. Religion is dying in the westt, Many people take up a new spirituality. (I don't expect religious adherents to understand). The Catholic Church, which represents the majority of Christians, but certainly not tens of millions of others, doesn't call for someone's death. They excemunicate, which is a far cry from killing.

- I have nothing against the Church. I think, overall, it's doing Good. Excommunicating an apostate, in the current western state of affairs, sounds like a reasonable approach.


All Christian countries. Not Muslim countries.

- Untrue.

Why is Christianity being wiped out in the Middle East, if there is true religious freedom?

- It isn't. As I said, 5% of the population in the ME is Christian.

Why are Jews so despised?

- Zionists, not Jews. Jews who defend Palestine are loved by the Muslim community.

Are you aware that Jordan, a Muslim country killed up to 20,000 Palestinians on what is known as Black September? It always comes down to Israel. The Jews are infinitely more successful than Arabs and have created a democratic society that no Arab nation has or will in the forseeable future. I don't think Arabs love Jews, I think they are jealous.

Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan,

- Untrue. There are tons of Christians in these countries.


That's not true. Christianity is not allowed in Saudi Arabia. you can't even wear a cross. The only Christians in Saudi Arabia are foreign workers. Non are citizens
Yassine
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11/11/2015 12:24:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 11:18:19 PM, lotsoffun wrote:

Yes, the west has done all those things and the U.S. is responsible for much of it. The U.S. is not the entire west.

- Indeed.

We have created peaceful societies, with problems of course.

- Undeniably. I dare say, post WWII, many western societies experienced fairly stable & flourishing conditions, which was sometimes, sadly, accomplished at the expense of others' misfortunes.

but It is your people that flock to our lands.

- What do you mean by 'your people'?!!! You do know that most immigrants are not even muslim, especially in the US.

We don't emigrate to yours. that speaks for itself.

- But you do of course, though maybe in lesser degrees. Then again, migration is about opportunity. Maybe if you hadn't spent the last couple centuries exploiting these countries, you won't be complaining about immigrants now.

I stand by what I said. How many Muslim leaders have come out with outlandish statements of hatred and scorn for all those not Muslim and calling for the complete takeover of the world.

- I personally don't know any. But I am sure many Christian leaders do the same as well.

How many scum jihadists living in the west are allowed to stand in our midst and insult us and spit on our soldiers and call for the death of our nations?

- Again, don't know any. & I doubt there are no repercussions to those acts! I live in France, & those who criticise the nation's values may be, by law, deported, banished, imprisoned or at least fined. Only boycotting Israeli products warrants a fine of "1,000 to "20,000, & up to 6months in prison.

If they were Christian and did that in Muslim countries, they'd be dead.

- Not really. Native Christian populations in the muslim world have as much say in their nations as any muslim does.

Too many. You can see their speeches all over YouTube.

- Never had the misfortune. & I am pretty sure these are extreme minorities, conflated by the Media.

Are you aware that Jordan, a Muslim country killed up to 20,000 Palestinians on what is known as Black September?

- I doubt the number is that high.

It always comes down to Israel. The Jews are infinitely more successful than Arabs and have created a democratic society that no Arab nation has or will in the forseeable future.

- They created a democratic apartheid on occupied land. I don't deny that Jews have been successful in many instances in History, considering their size, they probably have the highest success/capita rates. But theirs are nowhere near the successes of the Arabs, for the latter founded one of the greatest, vastest & longest civilisations the world has ever seen. It is true that Arabs are weakened in this post-colonial period, which is, historically, a very short period in their long lived hight in power.

I don't think Arabs love Jews,

- I don't think Jews love Arabs either.

I think they are jealous.

- Certainly not. LOL!

That's not true. Christianity is not allowed in Saudi Arabia.

- In the same way Islam is not allowed in some western countries.

you can't even wear a cross.

- & you can't wear a burka in France.

The only Christians in Saudi Arabia are foreign workers. Non are citizens

- Yes, because there are no native Christians in Saudi Arabia. Immigrants have to respect the law of the land, much like what muslim residents are supposed to do in western lands.
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lotsoffun
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11/11/2015 12:49:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That's not true. Christianity is not allowed in Saudi Arabia.

- In the same way Islam is not allowed in some western countries.

It's not the same at all - not even close. Muslims are free to practice their religion in Western countries. Do you have any idea the trouble Coptic Christians go through in their own land, Egypt? Had the Muslim brotherhood not been deposed in that country, the Copts would have it even worse. What western countries don't allow Islam in? There are 53 million Muslims in Europe and this has caused a great deal of tension. Canada has 1.1 million Muslims and the U.S. has over 3 million. All western countries allow free immigration and don't discriminate against one group or the other. The main problem is that Muslims have a difficult time integrating - many refusing to integrate. You are in France. An ethnic Frenchman would fully understand why the burqa is banned in France, while a Muslim probably wouldn't. (I'm making a general statement).

Just because I haven't responded to your other points, it doesn't mean I concede them. I'm just tired of the discussion. Thank you for your time.
Yassine
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11/11/2015 2:57:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 12:49:24 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

It's not the same at all - not even close.

- Come on. It's pretty close.

Muslims are free to practice their religion in Western countries.

- They are free to adhere to their religion, not free to practice it. The practice of religion in that case is restrained to the laws of the land. Muslims, in western countries, are allowed only basic practices of their faith (like prayer), the bulk of their religious duties is not allowed.

Do you have any idea the trouble Coptic Christians go through in their own land, Egypt?

- I've been to Egypt. I have family there. I know tons of Copts (some are relatives). I think I got a pretty good idea of their situation there. & the troubles they go through are no more or less than their muslim counterparts. Tyranny doesn't discriminate.

Had the Muslim brotherhood not been deposed in that country, the Copts would have it even worse.

- It's the other way around pal. Apparently you don't know the first thing about the country's politics. Had the MB succeeded, Christians would have their condition improved.

What western countries don't allow Islam in? There are 53 million Muslims in Europe and this has caused a great deal of tension.

- It's 44. & excluding Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo... (the muslim majority region), 19 million.

Canada has 1.1 million Muslims and the U.S. has over 3 million.

- There are more christians in Muslim majority countries than there are muslims in Christian majority countries.

All western countries allow free immigration and don't discriminate against one group or the other.

- What now?!!!!

The main problem is that Muslims have a difficult time integrating - many refusing to integrate.

- Well... I doubt you'd be eager to dive in muslim cultures if you happen to reside in a muslim country!!! Or would you?! Westerners perpetrated the grandest destruction of global culture in the History of Mankind, during the colonial periods. They assumed their self-proclaimed values & forced it on the nations they occupied. That's in the past, yes, but, they are still attempting to do it today.

- I am no proponent of immigration, on the contrary. & I think western (or otherwise) nations should seek to preserve the purity of their identity & culture. However, they may not deprive their own citizens of their foreign cultures, otherwise, they shouldn't have given these foreigners citizenship in the first place. From here on out, the mixture of these cultures injected in western cultures would produce the new western culture. This is the reality, no matter how undesirable, & it must be accepted.

You are in France. An ethnic Frenchman would fully understand why the burqa is banned in France, while a Muslim probably wouldn't. (I'm making a general statement).

- Not necessarily, many women who wear the burqa are ethnically French. Which speaks of discrimination against the minority! I am pretty sure French people wouldn't be too keen on having alcohol banned, whereas a practicing muslim would fully understand the ban.

Just because I haven't responded to your other points, it doesn't mean I concede them. I'm just tired of the discussion. Thank you for your time.

- Thanks for your input. :)
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11/11/2015 3:03:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:27:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
- It's bejen a while since I made a thread. My internet is working again after a long month, & I have some free time in my hands. Please suggest a topic, any topic, Islam related, & I shall display it for you in my next thread.

- If you don't have something in mind, please select one of the following topics. So far, I've been hesitant to make a choice:

1. Free Will In Islam.
2. Fatalism In Islam.
3. Problem Of Evil In Islam.
4. Apostasy In Isalm.
5. Freedom Of Religion In Islam.
6. Marriage/Divorce In Isalm.
7. Punishment In Islam.
8. Penalties In Islam.

=> Upon choosing a topic, please indicate what relevant aspects you think should be brought up in relation to the topic.

Murder, beheadings, jihad, and taquiya
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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11/11/2015 3:08:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 3:47:17 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/10/2015 3:38:19 AM, lotsoffun wrote:

Apostacy. There are Islamic countries where the law states that leaving the religion is punishable by death (Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan). These laws are not often applied, but when polls are taken, a large percentage of Muslims (88% in Egypt and 62% of Pakistanis) support the death penalty for apostacy. The percentage is high in other countries but very low in Albania and Russia among the Muslim populations. This may be partially attributed to culture or because of the Muslim population in both countries either being a small minority in Russia or a small majority in Albania, and both being secular European states.

- I was hoping to talk about Apostasy in Islam, not apostasy laws in muslim current societies. But sure, have at it.

Any religion and I mean any religion that feels it needs to force people to stay in the religion or forcibly converts people to it is basically insecure.

- True, indeed.

It is incomprehensible to Westerners, whether practicing Christians or not that ones freedom of religion would be taken away or as in some Muslim countries, not granted.

- One: Christianity & Judaism decree the death penalty for apostasy as well, that's just a fact. Two: that which is not comprehended by one, is indeed incomprehensible to one. Three: what exactly do you mean by 'taken away' or 'granted'?

BS

Source? None.

Jesus taught love even your enemy. There are no Jesus taught advocations for the death penalty for apostacy. Christianity advocating death for apostacy is a lie. Muslims take the death penalty, beheadings, taquiya seriously, and all are evil.