Total Posts:227|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Many Arguments AGAINST God

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Since it appears that most here think that "lack of evidence" is the only argument against God, here is a list of arguments against God. Some of them are logical and evidential proofs and others are simply evidential arguments.

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

Argument From the Fact of Existence
Argument from Quantum Physics
The 5 Atheistic Teleological Arguments
Ontological Argument for the Non-Existence of God

Apathetic/Amoral God Paradox
Argument from Scale
Argument From the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Big Bang Cosmological Argument

Argument from the Hartle-Hawking Model
The Incoherency of ‘Divine Creation'
Argument from Evolution
Argument from Virtue

Argument from Correct Choice
The Perfection vs. Creation Argument, Version 1
The Perfection vs. Creation Argument, Version 2
The Immutability vs. Creation Argument

The Immutability vs. Omniscience Argument
The Immutable vs. All-Loving Argument
The Transcendence vs. Omnipresence Argument
The Transcendence vs. Personhood Argument

The Nonphysical vs. Personal Argument
The Omnipresence vs. Personhood Argument
The Omniscient vs. Free Argument
The Justice vs. Mercy Argument

Argument from the Necessity of Naturalism
The Impossibility of Theistic and Christian Moral Principles
The Noncognitive Nature of Infinity
The Argument From Noncognitivism

The Euthyphro Dilemma
Process-Based Noncognitivism
Argument from Moral Autonomy
The Argument From Mind-Brain Dependence

Occam's Razor Argument
Epistemic Argument
The No-Reason Argument
Logical Problem of Evil

Evidential Problem of Evil
Inductive Argument from Evil
Soteriological Problem of Evil
Argument from Non-Belief/Divine Hiddenness

Argument from Miracles
Conflicts Between the Divine Attributes
Existentialist Argument (from The Impossibility of God)
Ignorance Argument

Argument from Personhood
Dimensional Argument
Argument from Locality
...And other Incoherency arguments, and pragmatic or methodological arguments

Sources:

http://www.strongatheism.net...
http://wiki.ironchariots.org...
http://atheism.about.com...

Now all of those claims that "there is no evidence against God's existence" can finally be put to rest.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:45:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Now all of those claims that "there is no evidence against God's existence" can finally be put to rest.

Haha we'll see about that!
President of DDO
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:47:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong Atheist Arguments:

Evidential Problem of Evil
Argument from Non-Belief/Divine Hiddenness

Fixed. :P
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:52:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think you just issued a debate challenge. 47 of them, to be precise. How many of these arguments are you willing to back up?

One at a time, whoever cares to call it. I'll take you on any or all of these.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:53:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Meh...most of those are a bit ridiculous. For me, the Evidential PoE and the Argument From Divine Hiddenness are the most persuasive at disproving any sort of God that would actually be worth believing in. I think the "no reason" argument is intriguing and might be successful at disproving a deistic God, but I haven't seen any strong formulations of it.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:55:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Euthyphro Dilemma

That's just an argument against Divine Command Theory...
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:58:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

'Cause I said so. So there.


Fixed.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
jharry
Posts: 4,984
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 9:59:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:58:16 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

'Cause I said so. So there.


Fixed.

Now that is funny. And so true.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:00:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:55:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Euthyphro Dilemma

That's just an argument against Divine Command Theory...

If one of God's properties is being the objective standard of morality, then the Euthyphro Dilemma contends such a being's existence. Rendering the Divine Command Theory incoherent also renders God incoherent.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:03:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Look, Geo; this is just a list of possible lines of attack. Most of these "arguments" are efforts in semantics and beating strawmen; there are really only a few there that stand up to logical analysis. Posting this list adds nothing to the dispute except to clarify our topics.

You want to settle the claims of "no evidence against"? Debate me. Take each and every one of these arguments and beat the tar out of me with them, one at a time. I'm betting you'll find them a whole lot less substantial than they look right now.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:03:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:00:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:55:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Euthyphro Dilemma

That's just an argument against Divine Command Theory...

If one of God's properties is being the objective standard of morality, then the Euthyphro Dilemma contends such a being's existence. Rendering the Divine Command Theory incoherent also renders God incoherent.

God's status as an objective standard of morality is a brute fact. If you think that's incoherent, you have to apply the same criticism to secular morality.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:55:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Euthyphro Dilemma

That's just an argument against Divine Command Theory...

So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.
President of DDO
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:05:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:59:37 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:58:16 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

'Cause I said so. So there.


Fixed.

Now that is funny. And so true.

Actually, no, it's not true. Chrysippus' statement implies that every Strong-Atheist Argument is a bare assertion, when if you actually read the arguments, you will see that they are clearly not bare assertions.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:08:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."

Indeed. And hey some deists do.
President of DDO
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:08:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't.

The arguments listed vary from general arguments against any God, and some more specific, i.e. geared towards the Judeo-Christian God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jharry
Posts: 4,984
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:09:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:05:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:59:37 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:58:16 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

'Cause I said so. So there.


Fixed.

Now that is funny. And so true.

Actually, no, it's not true. Chrysippus' statement implies that every Strong-Atheist Argument is a bare assertion, when if you actually read the arguments, you will see that they are clearly not bare assertions.

Well, I was assuming he was talking about you. You know, how sometimes you act like a 13 year old girl. I dunno?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:11:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:08:30 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."

Indeed. And hey some deists do.

WWWWhhhatttt?!
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:14:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:03:09 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
Look, Geo; this is just a list of possible lines of attack.

False. They aren't strategies, they are full-fledged arguments.

Most of these "arguments" are efforts in semantics and beating strawmen; there are really only a few there that stand up to logical analysis.

ROFL. You haven't demonstrated that to be the case.

Posting this list adds nothing to the dispute except to clarify our topics.

Posting this list proves that there is indeed a plethora of evidence against God's existence.

I never qualified the arguments as strong, weak, definitive, or conclusive arguments. It's irrelevant because weak evidence is still evidence (assuming that some of them are weak; they all may possibly be strong).


You want to settle the claims of "no evidence against"?

See above.

Debate me. Take each and every one of these arguments and beat the tar out of me with them, one at a time.

What makes you think I hold such a burden, nor the time?

I'm betting you'll find them a whole lot less substantial than they look right now.

And I can say the same about all your Theistic Arguments.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:15:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."

Meh...there are better ways. When people make claims like "God hates f@gs," you're probably not going to change their mind either way, but if you're going to try, putting certain verses in context or citing others to refute it is generally the best way to go about it.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:16:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:09:54 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:59:37 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:58:16 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong-Atheist Arguments

'Cause I said so. So there.


Fixed.

Now that is funny. And so true.

Actually, no, it's not true. Chrysippus' statement implies that every Strong-Atheist Argument is a bare assertion, when if you actually read the arguments, you will see that they are clearly not bare assertions.

Well, I was assuming he was talking about you. You know, how sometimes you act like a 13 year old girl. I dunno?

Well, actually, no I wasn't talking about anyone in particular; I was referring to the nigh-universal feature of athiestic arguments: He doesn't exist, because I cannot fathom why he would.

Finite mind tackling infinite problem and expecting not to come up with an error message. That's the essential problem with each and every one of those arguments; and all the other ones he didn't list.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:17:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:15:24 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."

Meh...there are better ways. When people make claims like "God hates f@gs," you're probably not going to change their mind either way, but if you're going to try, putting certain verses in context or citing others to refute it is generally the best way to go about it.

Nevermind. I don't know why I used the term persuasive. It's a strong argument, but hardly one that convinces blind-faith Christians.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:22:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:16:55 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
I was referring to the nigh-universal feature of athiestic arguments: He doesn't exist, because I cannot fathom why he would.

Wow. Not a single one of those arguments appeal to that notion.

Finite mind tackling infinite problem and expecting not to come up with an error message.

Non-cognitivist fallacy.

That's the essential problem with each and every one of those arguments; and all the other ones he didn't list.

False. Just by looking at the titles of the arguments, you can tell that that's not true.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:25:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:11:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:08:30 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:06:59 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:05:51 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:04:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:
So? Theists believe in Divine Command. That's, ya know, part of theism.

Deists don't. Either way, it's not a very persuasive argument.

It's persuasive when debating against those who argue "God says X is moral; therefore, X is moral."

Indeed. And hey some deists do.

WWWWhhhatttt?!

"Most deists see holy books not as authoritative divine revelations but as human interpretations."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
President of DDO
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:26:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 9:47:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2010 9:40:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

List of Strong Atheist Arguments:

Evidential Problem of Evil
Argument from Non-Belief/Divine Hiddenness

I've got both of them ready to go.

Fixed. :P
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:28:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:14:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:03:09 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
Look, Geo; this is just a list of possible lines of attack.

False. They aren't strategies, they are full-fledged arguments.

What you posted are names, topics, lines of attack. We can discuss the arguments themselves in debating form, where the rules of evidence and logic apply. As in, not in forum, where derailing and heckling are the rule.

Most of these "arguments" are efforts in semantics and beating strawmen; there are really only a few there that stand up to logical analysis.

ROFL. You haven't demonstrated that to be the case.

Nor have you demonstrated these to be "evidence." I ask the same chance as you, nothing more. AND I'm willing to back up what I say; how 'bout you?


Posting this list adds nothing to the dispute except to clarify our topics.

Posting this list proves that there is indeed a plethora of evidence against God's existence.

Posting this list proves there is a list. I hold that most of these aren't worth their weight in sunshine; and in the forum, my opinion is as good as yours.


You want to settle the claims of "no evidence against"?

See above.

Debate me. Take each and every one of these arguments and beat the tar out of me with them, one at a time.

What makes you think I hold such a burden, nor the time?


You posted the list, not me. Obviously you had a bee under your bonnet, and you wanted to vent; ok, you got attention. I'm calling you on it. If you don't think them (or me; I'd understand that more) worth the time, then don't go saying things like "That ought to settle it" without realizing what it makes you look like.

I'm betting you'll find them a whole lot less substantial than they look right now.

And I can say the same about all your Theistic Arguments.

One baseless opinion deserves another, I guess.

I'm just saying, if they really are worth making the thread over, surely they're worth debating?
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:32:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:17:23 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nevermind. I don't know why I used the term persuasive. It's a strong argument, but hardly one that convinces blind-faith Christians.

It's not strong or persuasive.

At 9/27/2010 10:25:34 PM, theLwerd wrote:

"Most deists see holy books not as authoritative divine revelations but as human interpretations."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Touche.

At 9/27/2010 10:26:07 PM, Freeman wrote:

I've got both of them ready to go.

I'm still putting together that other debate for ya. I need to get a paper out of the way though.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:33:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:32:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:26:07 PM, Freeman wrote:
I've got both of them ready to go.

I'm still putting together that other debate for ya. I need to get a paper out of the way though.

Epic debate will be epic.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2010 10:43:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 10:32:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2010 10:17:23 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nevermind. I don't know why I used the term persuasive. It's a strong argument, but hardly one that convinces blind-faith Christians.

It's not strong or persuasive.

At 9/27/2010 10:25:34 PM, theLwerd wrote:

"Most deists see holy books not as authoritative divine revelations but as human interpretations."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Touche.

At 9/27/2010 10:26:07 PM, Freeman wrote:

I've got both of them ready to go.

I'm still putting together that other debate for ya. I need to get a paper out of the way though.

Take your time. I'm working on another debate about miracles if you ever become interested. And hopefully I can finish my treatise on morality sometime before I die.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright