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Can A Loving God Send His Children To Hell?

Micheal21
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11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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11/21/2015 4:42:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

Notice from what I've underlined, that the issues you're confused about have everything to do with your God's followers and not anything to do with gods?

So, you should probably think more about what your religion is doing to those people as opposed to what those people are doing to your friend.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/21/2015 4:55:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Notice from what I've underlined, that the issues you're confused about have everything to do with your God's followers and not anything to do with gods?

So, you should probably think more about what your religion is doing to those people as opposed to what those people are doing to your friend.

Thank you for your reply. I guess it all really comes down to the people who practices the religion. I just thought that they relayed the message that GOD wanted us to follow. Even if it's a message that's unsettling to me at times.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.
olivetwo
Posts: 262
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11/21/2015 5:12:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

Hi Michael. I am so sorry to read your post, because of the discrimination that you experience from your Church that pretending they are of God. "They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Titus 1:16

Always remember this, there are only two groups in the world. The False and the Truth. I hope someday you will find those that are REAL. As of now be happy as you are. You are also created by HIM.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/21/2015 5:35:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hi Michael. I am so sorry to read your post, because of the discrimination that you experience from your Church that pretending they are of God. "They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Titus 1:16

Always remember this, there are only two groups in the world. The False and the Truth. I hope someday you will find those that are REAL. As of now be happy as you are. You are also created by HIM.

Thank you for your reply, but I do not understand. Do we not all (Christians) follow God's word? As I understand it, gays are an abomination. . .at least from what I've heard preached. I don't feel this way. Somehow, saying that makes me feel like a traitor inside. I do not harbor hate or ill-intentions for anyone who wishes to be happy with a loved one. . .even of the same sex. I've been programmed to pity their way of life but seeing how happy my friend is, i can only feel happiness for her. This confuses me because I feel like I'm somehow disobeying God. Is it just my church that is like this or is it all churches under christianity? I want to be of a church that preaches love and forgiveness for all God's children, not an underhand threat to the ones that are different.

I have to re-iterate this, i believe in God, more now than ever before. I just want to make sure that I'm receiving the right message. Don't want to be led astray.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/21/2015 5:47:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Thank you for your reply. I understand your questioning because I too had the same thoughts about my religion. I won't pretend to know all of the answers. I don't understand many things that are preached about. I don't understand many things that are written in the bible but I DO believe in a loving God that has helped me numerous times throughout my life. I do believe in a loving God that revived my mother after she sunk into a coma. I do believe in a loving God who revived me after a suicidal attempt that was promised to be successful. I do believe in a loving God who enriched my life with friends and loved ones after my world seemed lost. These are the reasons why I believe.

I can not prove to you or anyone out there that there is a God, all I know is it's enough for me to put my faith in only him. Sometimes it just feels like the message I'm being taught contradicts with the loving God that i want to believe in.
I wish you the best of days and happiness through it all.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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11/21/2015 5:48:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:55:57 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
Notice from what I've underlined, that the issues you're confused about have everything to do with your God's followers and not anything to do with gods?

So, you should probably think more about what your religion is doing to those people as opposed to what those people are doing to your friend.

Thank you for your reply. I guess it all really comes down to the people who practices the religion. I just thought that they relayed the message that GOD wanted us to follow. Even if it's a message that's unsettling to me at times.

Yes, any message that promotes shaming leers and hateful undertones most certainly would be unsettling. So, why are you following such a religion?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
olivetwo
Posts: 262
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11/21/2015 5:52:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 5:35:27 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
Hi Michael. I am so sorry to read your post, because of the discrimination that you experience from your Church that pretending they are of God. "They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Titus 1:16

Always remember this, there are only two groups in the world. The False and the Truth. I hope someday you will find those that are REAL. As of now be happy as you are. You are also created by HIM.

Thank you for your reply, but I do not understand. Do we not all (Christians) follow God's word?

Not all that saying they are Christians are True Christians at all. Try to read Mathew 7:21. Some are just pretending and according to you, you don't want to be misled, unfortunately you are already.

As I understand it, gays are an abomination. . .at least from what I've heard preached.
You are misled, that is not the true Christians said.

I don't feel this way. Somehow, saying that makes me feel like a traitor inside. I do not harbor hate or ill-intentions for anyone who wishes to be happy with a loved one. . .even of the same sex. I've been programmed to pity their way of life but seeing how happy my friend is, i can only feel happiness for her. This confuses me because I feel like I'm somehow disobeying God. Is it just my church that is like this or is it all churches under christianity? I want to be of a church that preaches love and forgiveness for all God's children, not an underhand threat to the ones that are different.

Don't stop searching. The Bible says " Search and you will find " The secret is you have to be serious enough to find and you are not just pretending.

I have to re-iterate this, i believe in God, more now than ever before. I just want to make sure that I'm receiving the right message. Don't want to be led astray.

All I can say for you Michael is " just SEARCH "........

And by the way God will not send His children to Hell. Take note HIS CHILDREN. No He will not, that is injustice.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/21/2015 7:13:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 5:47:04 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Thank you for your reply. I understand your questioning because I too had the same thoughts about my religion. I won't pretend to know all of the answers. I don't understand many things that are preached about. I don't understand many things that are written in the bible but I DO believe in a loving God that has helped me numerous times throughout my life. I do believe in a loving God that revived my mother after she sunk into a coma. I do believe in a loving God who revived me after a suicidal attempt that was promised to be successful. I do believe in a loving God who enriched my life with friends and loved ones after my world seemed lost. These are the reasons why I believe.

I can not prove to you or anyone out there that there is a God, all I know is it's enough for me to put my faith in only him. Sometimes it just feels like the message I'm being taught contradicts with the loving God that i want to believe in.

And for good reason, it is contradictory. It's up to you to decide if and how you will reconcile that contradiction. Some Christians ignore it and fall back onto the "God works in mysterious ways" mantra. Some reconcile it by adopting the belief that God is not all loving. Some reject the notion of hell altogether as incompatible with Gods love.

Either way there will still be more problems. Believing in something despite recognizing that it is internally contradictory by ignoring the contradictions is very intellectually dishonest. And reconciling those contradictions by making up alternative interpretations that fit what you want to believe is not only dishonest but also a demonstration of your beliefs having no merit.

I can't tell you how you want to deal with what your going through, all I can say is that I hope you remain honest with yourself because only then will you ever move past it.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/21/2015 7:27:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

It seems you are under the misgiving that because some one is born into the world they are automatically a child of God. You have to be born of to be a child of, and in the case of Christianity one must be born of the Holy Spirit to be a Child of God the Father of Jesus Christ. There are such things of the children of hell, I do believe Jesus Himself made mention of it. Also if she is a child of God in the Christian context, then it"s the church"s responsibility to make a point that they nor does the God you say she professes to, accept the life she has chosen, which is not the Life Christ has given. The church is supposed to be
for the pursuit of the fulfillment in the Life that Christ has given, not the fulfillment of the life in the world people chose.
Gaetan
Posts: 23
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11/21/2015 7:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

Yes God send people to hell but not gays, real criminals, unjust people, you are confused, but not for an eternity.
Rubikx
Posts: 226
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11/21/2015 7:48:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

This is one of the biggest issues that people seem to miss about God. Hell was supposed to be solely to imprison Satan and the demons. Thats it. It wasn't meant for humans. God created humans perfect so that we would go to heaven when we died. Heaven has 100% no sin. So if you have sin and you die you cannot enter heaven and so by default you have to go to hell. So its not that God is sending people to hell because they don't believe in him, its that he can't allow them into heaven. The reason jesus had to die on the cross was because we sin all the time and so none of us could make it to heaven. But jesus dying basically gave everyone who asks a sin free clean slate meaning we can make it to heaven.

In regards to your gay friend. The Bible teaches that being gay is a sin. Its pretty straightforward about that, but it also says that ANYONE who accepts jesus and asks for forgiveness gets to go to heaven. So while it is true that there are many churches who do not accept gay people, they can still be christians and still go to heaven.

Homosexuality is a sin like any other and jesus died to forgive all sins, its that simple.
Gaetan
Posts: 23
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11/21/2015 8:09:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:48:39 PM, Rubikx wrote:


Homosexuality is a sin like any other and jesus died to forgive all sins, its that simple.

Homosexuality is not a sin, it is the way you are, Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. He said that:

Mt 19.12 For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mother"s womb, and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven"s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

He said they are born like that and it is what it is.
Rubikx
Posts: 226
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11/21/2015 9:01:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 8:09:48 PM, Gaetan wrote:
At 11/21/2015 7:48:39 PM, Rubikx wrote:


Homosexuality is a sin like any other and jesus died to forgive all sins, its that simple.

Homosexuality is not a sin, it is the way you are, Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. He said that:

Mt 19.12 For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mother"s womb, and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven"s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

He said they are born like that and it is what it is.

Eunachs aren't gay people. They're people who can't have reproduce due to birth defects or intentional castration.

And if eunuch did mean gay people that verse wouldn't make any sense. "For there are some eunuchs who were born from their mothers womb" ok thats fine, "and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men" so other people just forced people to be gay, "and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heavens sake" people chose to be gay for God?

You are right in saying that Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin, but other places in the bible make it very clear.
Gaetan
Posts: 23
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11/21/2015 9:14:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 9:01:24 PM, Rubikx wrote:
At 11/21/2015 8:09:48 PM, Gaetan wrote:
At 11/21/2015 7:48:39 PM, Rubikx wrote:


Homosexuality is a sin like any other and jesus died to forgive all sins, its that simple.

Homosexuality is not a sin, it is the way you are, Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. He said that:

Mt 19.12 For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mother"s womb, and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven"s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

He said they are born like that and it is what it is.

Eunachs aren't gay people. They're people who can't have reproduce due to birth defects or intentional castration.

And if eunuch did mean gay people that verse wouldn't make any sense. "For there are some eunuchs who were born from their mothers womb" ok thats fine, "and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men" so other people just forced people to be gay, "and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heavens sake" people chose to be gay for God?

You are right in saying that Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin, but other places in the bible make it very clear.

He said that: He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

And it doesn't make any sense that being gay is a sin, it doesn't hurt no one, it is not an injustice, this is discrimination from Satan. Who rule that as a sin is evil.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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11/21/2015 9:16:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:27:09 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?



It seems you are under the misgiving that because some one is born into the world they are automatically a child of God. You have to be born of to be a child of, and in the case of Christianity one must be born of the Holy Spirit to be a Child of God the Father of Jesus Christ.

How is this determined exactly? Does the Holy Ghost make a personal appearance to deliver the baby?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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11/21/2015 9:24:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

1. C.S. Lewis once said that "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." What this means is that someone who goes to Hell goes there not because God sent them there, but because they themselves did not choose God and thus locked themselves away from Him. God cannot force someone to be in loving union with him for eternity; human beings must make that choice themselves. It is when humans make the choice to reject God that humans condemn themselves to Hell.

2. Christians are taught not to condemn others. This is because humans do not understand the past of each human being, how they were raised, what they were taught, what experiences they had, the intentions they have, etc. Only God knows these things. It is wrong any in case for a human to condemn another person. Christians who do this certainly are not acting Christ-like. Now this isn't to say that we should allow people to do immoral things or necessarily accept all worldviews, but it does mean we ought not condemn others for the things they do and the worldviews they have.
Nolite Timere
dsjpk5
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11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Double_R
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11/21/2015 11:42:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.

First of all you cannot choose to separate yourself from an entity that you do not believe exists. It's a self refuting proposition.

Second, even if one believes in God and chooses to be separated from him, it is still God's rules that determine what happens to that individual. And even in the absurd scenario that one chooses to go to hell (which is logically impossible if the person doesn't believe hell is real) then it would still be within the power of an all loving God to pull that person out if the individual decided at any moment that he no longer wished to remain. A God that would leave the individual there despite his wish to escape could not in any coherent way be describes as loving, let alone all loving.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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11/21/2015 11:48:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

God laid before all his creation a choice, a very simple choice, either choose to spend eternity with him or eternity without him, God made a way for all those who choose eternity with him to do just that..
To me God does not send anyone to hell, everyone makes their choice of destination...
LittleBallofHATE
Posts: 284
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11/21/2015 11:54:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

God has told us that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If one is a Christian, they will not engage in such behavior. Only unbelievers do that, because they have rejected God. God does not send people to Hell. They choose to go there. You claim to believe in God. Well, even the devil believes in Him. There is only one way to Heaven. Believing that God sent His son to save us from our sin, repenting for that sin, and changing our behavior. Because faith without works is dead. And here you are, claiming that God is unjust. You do not know God, and God is not in you.
I would agree with you, but then we'd BOTH be wrong.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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11/22/2015 12:03:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:54:52 PM, LittleBallofHATE wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

God has told us that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If one is a Christian, they will not engage in such behavior. Only unbelievers do that, because they have rejected God. God does not send people to Hell. They choose to go there. You claim to believe in God. Well, even the devil believes in Him. There is only one way to Heaven. Believing that God sent His son to save us from our sin, repenting for that sin, and changing our behavior. Because faith without works is dead. And here you are, claiming that God is unjust. You do not know God, and God is not in you.

amen...
dsjpk5
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11/22/2015 12:19:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:42:15 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.

First of all you cannot choose to separate yourself from an entity that you do not believe exists. It's a self refuting proposition.

I never said all atheists go to Hell. It's possible that they don't have an accurate conception of God, and as such, are rejecting a phantom. In that case, they may not be responsible for their atheism, and could possibly go to Heaven. In this case, the author of the thread seems to believe God exists, but is still considering rejecting Him.

Second, even if one believes in God and chooses to be separated from him, it is still God's rules that determine what happens to that individual. And even in the absurd scenario that one chooses to go to hell (which is logically impossible if the person doesn't believe hell is real) then it would still be within the power of an all loving God to pull that person out if the individual decided at any moment that he no longer wished to remain.

Unless, as Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, your will becomes fixed upon death. If that's true, there is no changing of your mind.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Double_R
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11/22/2015 12:43:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/22/2015 12:19:42 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:42:15 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.

First of all you cannot choose to separate yourself from an entity that you do not believe exists. It's a self refuting proposition.

I never said all atheists go to Hell. It's possible that they don't have an accurate conception of God, and as such, are rejecting a phantom. In that case, they may not be responsible for their atheism, and could possibly go to Heaven. In this case, the author of the thread seems to believe God exists, but is still considering rejecting Him.

So some atheists end up in heaven? Interesting...

Second, even if one believes in God and chooses to be separated from him, it is still God's rules that determine what happens to that individual. And even in the absurd scenario that one chooses to go to hell (which is logically impossible if the person doesn't believe hell is real) then it would still be within the power of an all loving God to pull that person out if the individual decided at any moment that he no longer wished to remain.

Unless, as Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, your will becomes fixed upon death. If that's true, there is no changing of your mind.

It's strange that God would place such a high value on free will that he would give it to us despite the fact that it would result in some of us ending up in an eternal hell, and yet this free will is removed from us on the afterlife.
dsjpk5
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11/22/2015 12:46:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/22/2015 12:43:54 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/22/2015 12:19:42 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:42:15 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.

First of all you cannot choose to separate yourself from an entity that you do not believe exists. It's a self refuting proposition.

I never said all atheists go to Hell. It's possible that they don't have an accurate conception of God, and as such, are rejecting a phantom. In that case, they may not be responsible for their atheism, and could possibly go to Heaven. In this case, the author of the thread seems to believe God exists, but is still considering rejecting Him.

So some atheists end up in heaven? Interesting...

Second, even if one believes in God and chooses to be separated from him, it is still God's rules that determine what happens to that individual. And even in the absurd scenario that one chooses to go to hell (which is logically impossible if the person doesn't believe hell is real) then it would still be within the power of an all loving God to pull that person out if the individual decided at any moment that he no longer wished to remain.

Unless, as Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, your will becomes fixed upon death. If that's true, there is no changing of your mind.

It's strange that God would place such a high value on free will that he would give it to us despite the fact that it would result in some of us ending up in an eternal hell, and yet this free will is removed from us on the afterlife.

We humans do the same thing with death row inmates. Once they've made a decision, it's too late to turn back
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Double_R
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11/22/2015 12:48:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/22/2015 12:46:36 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/22/2015 12:43:54 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/22/2015 12:19:42 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:42:15 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/21/2015 11:15:46 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:59:47 PM, Double_R wrote:
It's the issue that ultimately lead me to atheism. If God is all powerful then he has complete control over the rules which govern our fate. Any God who decides that people would suffer the consequence of an eternal hell for committing the crime of not believing he is real or for not loving him, does not in any way shape or form qualify as loving.

What I find amazing are the lengths people go to justify this. If a person decided to create a torture chamber in their basement and condemn their child to it for life because their child did not love them, there is not a rational person on earth who would not instantly see the problem with that and consider the man to be a moral monster. Yet when it's God he gets the free pass because... you know... he's God.

Oh well. You can't reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Your analogy fails because only those who choose to be separated from God are in Hell.

First of all you cannot choose to separate yourself from an entity that you do not believe exists. It's a self refuting proposition.

I never said all atheists go to Hell. It's possible that they don't have an accurate conception of God, and as such, are rejecting a phantom. In that case, they may not be responsible for their atheism, and could possibly go to Heaven. In this case, the author of the thread seems to believe God exists, but is still considering rejecting Him.

So some atheists end up in heaven? Interesting...

Second, even if one believes in God and chooses to be separated from him, it is still God's rules that determine what happens to that individual. And even in the absurd scenario that one chooses to go to hell (which is logically impossible if the person doesn't believe hell is real) then it would still be within the power of an all loving God to pull that person out if the individual decided at any moment that he no longer wished to remain.

Unless, as Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, your will becomes fixed upon death. If that's true, there is no changing of your mind.

It's strange that God would place such a high value on free will that he would give it to us despite the fact that it would result in some of us ending up in an eternal hell, and yet this free will is removed from us on the afterlife.

We humans do the same thing with death row inmates. Once they've made a decision, it's too late to turn back

Removing a person's freedom and removing his free will are two different things.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/22/2015 12:52:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not a theist, but I believe that a lot of Christians don't see hell as a fire and brimstone place, but merely a seperation from God, as separated as possible for an omni-present being.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/22/2015 3:42:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
God laid before all his creation a choice, a very simple choice, either choose to spend eternity with him or eternity without him, God made a way for all those who choose eternity with him to do just that..
To me God does not send anyone to hell, everyone makes their choice of destination...

No one chooses hell. . .especially someone who wants nothing but love and peace out of life. Are you saying even if she is a good person on the inside. . .if she choose to be in a loving relationship with another woman. . .she deserves to burn for eternity? This is pretty much the problem that I have with religion. I don't believe in that type of judgement. I believe in a God that forgives and accepts, not the people who condemns and belittles.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/22/2015 3:48:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:54:52 PM, LittleBallofHATE wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:11:48 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've asked myself this question quite often. I do believe in a loving and all-powerful god. I do believe that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. What I DO find difficult to believe is that he would condemn the children he claim to love to an eternity of suffering if they do not choose him.

Take for instance, my friend is gay. She is married to another woman and she is quite happy with her life. She stopped attending church because of the shaming leers she received from other members. I, as a friend, pray for her happiness and would never wish her a life of pain and torture just because she chose a life that others don't agree with.

I've also started to notice the hateful undertone of the messages preached at church. About how all gays with suffer on judgement day and how they will be sorry once the pit of hell swallow them up. This has actually made me stray from religion a bit because I'm not the kind of person who would wish pain on others because they chose a lifestyle that I wouldn't agree with. . .especially if that lifestyle doesn't cause anyone harm.

I love God and I will always thrive to be the best I can be in his presence but sometimes I wonder how can a loving God condemn a child because she is different. The depth of my love is nothing compared to the Almighty One but even I can not bear sending a human being to infinite torture simply because his heart chose someone else of the same sex. Maybe I'm just not religious enough to understand the hatred but I do know that God's side is where I ultimately strive to be. Just hoping he's a bit more loving than people give him credit for. What's your opinion on the matter?

God has told us that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If one is a Christian, they will not engage in such behavior. Only unbelievers do that, because they have rejected God. God does not send people to Hell. They choose to go there. You claim to believe in God. Well, even the devil believes in Him. There is only one way to Heaven. Believing that God sent His son to save us from our sin, repenting for that sin, and changing our behavior. Because faith without works is dead. And here you are, claiming that God is unjust. You do not know God, and God is not in you.

Then it's a good thing I do not seek your approval, only that of God. It is not your place to tell me if God is with me or not. You do not have that kind of aithority but I still wish you the best of days. At the end of the day, I pray for God's acceptance not the acceptance of people who harbor ill-intentions in their hearts.