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Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Jovian
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11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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11/23/2015 10:15:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

How are we punished? Is it punishment that we got this life and opportunity to learn what good and evil means?
Jovian
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11/23/2015 10:24:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/23/2015 10:15:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

How are we punished? Is it punishment that we got this life and opportunity to learn what good and evil means?

"Original sin, in Christian doctrine, the condition or state of sin into which each human being is born; also, the origin (i.e., the cause, or source) of this state. Traditionally, the origin has been ascribed to the sin of the first man, Adam, who disobeyed God in eating the forbidden fruit (of knowledge of good and evil) and, in consequence, transmitted his sin and guilt by heredity to his descendants."

http://global.britannica.com...

Many others give a list of how humans have degenerated after this. Some say that the problem with our esophagus lying dangerously close to the air tube, thus resulting in loads of choking deaths every year, is a result of this. Etc. And that we have to wait for Jesus's next arrival to have this repealed.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/24/2015 6:16:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

No one is punished for what the character Adam did.

According to the scriptures all people are supposed to be responsible for their own sins. No one is to suffer for anyone elses sins.

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity....

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org...
Jovian
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11/24/2015 6:49:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:16:04 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.


No one is punished for what the character Adam did.

According to the scriptures all people are supposed to be responsible for their own sins. No one is to suffer for anyone elses sins.

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity....

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org...

Hmm. So this is the Jewish standpoint of it. Pity that I haven't suceeded in attracting "born sinners" people into this thread.
eli-stills
Posts: 27
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11/24/2015 9:15:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

If one puts aside the interpretations and opinions of the various post apostolic church leaders and depends solely on the Biblical narrative the concept that you call original sin appears to me to be no more than the authors intent to explain the agrarian revolution, why we live separate from God and why we experience death.

Setting aside debates over the historicity of Adam and Eve the authors narrative tells the story of how Adam and Eve were living with God in the Garden of Eden where they were taught to tend and keep the garden. As a result of eating from the tree of knowledge they were expelled from the garden and Gods presence to fend for themselves.

The account of the fall in Genesis makes it clear to me that because Adam and Eve choose self-governance (knowledge of right and wrong) over the tutelage of a God we all live in a state of existence separate from our creator and dependent upon the morality of our neighbors for our security and prosperity. The prediction of the God figure was and is that we will fail in our attempts to govern ourselves and others with the inevitable result being a life filled with hardship and suffering. To limit the misery that we would each individually experience the first death was introduced as an act of compassion. Later the hope of a ressurection to an eternal life existing with the Godhead was offered as an act of love and forgiveness should we choose Gods governance over our own.

As they say failure is the greatest teacher.

This is my first post so please forgive any formatting problems as I am still sorting out how to enter a thread but felt compelled by the subject matter.
Eli

Romans 5:12-21(ESV)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

As for us all being punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, you're mistaken. We are held accountable for our own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The earth is corrupt, and there are corrupt influences, but you don't have to be led by them. What do you think Jesus sets us free from?

Do you think that God had hoped that man would be faithful? Do you think that even though man fell short of Him, that He left man to suffer without any hope?

Wrong on both charges.
Jovian
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1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

As for us all being punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, you're mistaken. We are held accountable for our own sin.

And we also have the punishment of having to die and also having our women to have painful childbirths etc. Isn't it even told in the story that the reason why we have sinful thoughts is because that Adam ate the apple? If so, what a nice god who said "Now I will curse you with sinful thoughts. React upon them and you will be considered to have done that of 100% knowledge about it".

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The earth is corrupt, and there are corrupt influences, but you don't have to be led by them. What do you think Jesus sets us free from?

Certainly not what is described in Genesis 3:16 since the pains of giving birth is still a thing.

Do you think that God had hoped that man would be faithful? Do you think that even though man fell short of Him, that He left man to suffer without any hope?

Wrong on both charges.

Doesn't really matter what he hoped or didn't hope. The consequences of what happens inside the free will is something he is ultimaly held responsible for, since he invented and programmed the concept of it.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 3:02:43 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Because we are Adam.

Plant a bush on a totally deserted island, one single life, and after some years have passed, you discover that it was a noxious plant which may spead from that Island and destroy all other plant life on the mainland. To destroy that one single life that you planted on that Island, you would have to destroy every single plant that it had become.

In the day that God created man in his own image made he him; male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name ADAM in the day when they were created.

The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, these were androgenes (male and female) the third Adam was also an androgene, who, when first created had a glorious simulacrum or light body.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was cast down to the earth and clothed with skin, flesh, hair and nerves, etc. But in him is still some of the light from all preceding (ADAMS). From the dictionary of all scriptures and Myths.

Eve was taken from the man and Eve was the female aspect of man=Adam: 1st Timothy 2: 13; "For Adam was created first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law. But the woman will be saved through child-birth.

We are the great pregnant androgynous body of Eve, in which sinful body the SON OF MAN is developing, through great pains and tribulations will she/we give birth to the androgynous Son of Man, which child will justify the continued existence of mankind, with whom the new species of Light Beings will dwell.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.
Jovian
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1/10/2016 3:10:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:02:43 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Because we are Adam.

Plant a bush on a totally deserted island, one single life, and after some years have passed, you discover that it was a noxious plant which may spead from that Island and destroy all other plant life on the mainland. To destroy that one single life that you planted on that Island, you would have to destroy every single plant that it had become.

In the day that God created man in his own image made he him; male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name ADAM in the day when they were created.

The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, these were androgenes (male and female) the third Adam was also an androgene, who, when first created had a glorious simulacrum or light body.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was cast down to the earth and clothed with skin, flesh, hair and nerves, etc. But in him is still some of the light from all preceding (ADAMS). From the dictionary of all scriptures and Myths.

Eve was taken from the man and Eve was the female aspect of man=Adam: 1st Timothy 2: 13; "For Adam was created first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law. But the woman will be saved through child-birth.

We are the great pregnant androgynous body of Eve, in which sinful body the SON OF MAN is developing, through great pains and tribulations will she/we give birth to the androgynous Son of Man, which child will justify the continued existence of mankind, with whom the new species of Light Beings will dwell.

Hmm, with all this being said, now answer this: How do you find the North Korean policy of punishing a criminal's two upcoming generations? How would you find having to spend your life in prison for having a grandfather who commited a crime? If you think I just compared apples and oranges, please explain why.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 3:34:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:10:16 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:43 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Because we are Adam.

Plant a bush on a totally deserted island, one single life, and after some years have passed, you discover that it was a noxious plant which may spead from that Island and destroy all other plant life on the mainland. To destroy that one single life that you planted on that Island, you would have to destroy every single plant that it had become.

In the day that God created man in his own image made he him; male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name ADAM in the day when they were created.

The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, these were androgenes (male and female) the third Adam was also an androgene, who, when first created had a glorious simulacrum or light body.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was cast down to the earth and clothed with skin, flesh, hair and nerves, etc. But in him is still some of the light from all preceding (ADAMS). From the dictionary of all scriptures and Myths.

Eve was taken from the man and Eve was the female aspect of man=Adam: 1st Timothy 2: 13; "For Adam was created first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law. But the woman will be saved through child-birth.

We are the great pregnant androgynous body of Eve, in which sinful body the SON OF MAN is developing, through great pains and tribulations will she/we give birth to the androgynous Son of Man, which child will justify the continued existence of mankind, with whom the new species of Light Beings will dwell.

Hmm, with all this being said, now answer this: How do you find the North Korean policy of punishing a criminal's two upcoming generations? How would you find having to spend your life in prison for having a grandfather who commited a crime? If you think I just compared apples and oranges, please explain why.

The body of MAN=ADAM was sentenced to die because the female aspect of man was deceived and broke God's law. As long as one human being lives, Adam is still alive.

If you wish to suck someone into a long senseless discussion on whether a child should suffer for the sins of its parents, I suggest that you seek out someone else.

The laws passed down through Moses states that no child shall be held accountable for the sins of its parents and no parent shall suffer for the sins of their child.

But this law does not apply to God, who commanded his prophet Samuel to have King Saul destroy the entire Amalekite nation, man, woman and child, because of what their ancestors had done some 400 years earlier. See 1st Samuel chapter 15.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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1/10/2016 3:39:49 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:34:06 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:10:16 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:43 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Because we are Adam.

Plant a bush on a totally deserted island, one single life, and after some years have passed, you discover that it was a noxious plant which may spead from that Island and destroy all other plant life on the mainland. To destroy that one single life that you planted on that Island, you would have to destroy every single plant that it had become.

In the day that God created man in his own image made he him; male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name ADAM in the day when they were created.

The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, these were androgenes (male and female) the third Adam was also an androgene, who, when first created had a glorious simulacrum or light body.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was cast down to the earth and clothed with skin, flesh, hair and nerves, etc. But in him is still some of the light from all preceding (ADAMS). From the dictionary of all scriptures and Myths.

Eve was taken from the man and Eve was the female aspect of man=Adam: 1st Timothy 2: 13; "For Adam was created first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law. But the woman will be saved through child-birth.

We are the great pregnant androgynous body of Eve, in which sinful body the SON OF MAN is developing, through great pains and tribulations will she/we give birth to the androgynous Son of Man, which child will justify the continued existence of mankind, with whom the new species of Light Beings will dwell.

Hmm, with all this being said, now answer this: How do you find the North Korean policy of punishing a criminal's two upcoming generations? How would you find having to spend your life in prison for having a grandfather who commited a crime? If you think I just compared apples and oranges, please explain why.

The body of MAN=ADAM was sentenced to die because the female aspect of man was deceived and broke God's law. As long as one human being lives, Adam is still alive.

If you wish to suck someone into a long senseless discussion on whether a child should suffer for the sins of its parents, I suggest that you seek out someone else.

The laws passed down through Moses states that no child shall be held accountable for the sins of its parents and no parent shall suffer for the sins of their child.

But this law does not apply to God, who commanded his prophet Samuel to have King Saul destroy the entire Amalekite nation, man, woman and child, because of what their ancestors had done some 400 years earlier. See 1st Samuel chapter 15.

You know Gentry, this could be a good subject, even with some solid examples within Israel itself when they became a nation.

However, I do not agree with the idea that, "we are all Adam." I'm not Adam....

We all descended from Adam and Eve, but there were, as you know but one sin affects a whole world where Man has dominion, and one sin within Israel effected the whole nation.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 3:49:57 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

If I would have a family and children and I would gamble away any asset of my family, my family would suffer from it too, and also my futural grandchildren would have a slightly higher risk to be affected negatively too since they would have a parent who has experienced something like this.

If I would be an evil dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler, indeed many of my upcoming generations would be stigmatized of having me as an ancestor, even though they shouldn't be since they would barely have anything to do with me, many of them wouldn't even have interacted with me or even interacted with someone who has interacted with me. But this stigmatization would happen from some ignorant individuals, not from something higher as an institution, hopefully not at least.

This concept of original sin however is something totally different.

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

The only reason this effect carries on is because God decided it this way. N

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.

I didn't ask in order to strengthen a faith in the Bible, I asked to try to wrap my head around the mentality of:

Inheriting 10 000 year old guilt from a greatgreatx1000greatgrandfather = Totally sensible
North Korea making the two upcoming generations incarcerated in prison = Wooaaah this is something we should invade this country for
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 3:55:27 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:34:06 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:10:16 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:43 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Why are we punished for what Adam did?

Because we are Adam.

Plant a bush on a totally deserted island, one single life, and after some years have passed, you discover that it was a noxious plant which may spead from that Island and destroy all other plant life on the mainland. To destroy that one single life that you planted on that Island, you would have to destroy every single plant that it had become.

In the day that God created man in his own image made he him; male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name ADAM in the day when they were created.

The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, these were androgenes (male and female) the third Adam was also an androgene, who, when first created had a glorious simulacrum or light body.

The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was cast down to the earth and clothed with skin, flesh, hair and nerves, etc. But in him is still some of the light from all preceding (ADAMS). From the dictionary of all scriptures and Myths.

Eve was taken from the man and Eve was the female aspect of man=Adam: 1st Timothy 2: 13; "For Adam was created first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law. But the woman will be saved through child-birth.

We are the great pregnant androgynous body of Eve, in which sinful body the SON OF MAN is developing, through great pains and tribulations will she/we give birth to the androgynous Son of Man, which child will justify the continued existence of mankind, with whom the new species of Light Beings will dwell.

Hmm, with all this being said, now answer this: How do you find the North Korean policy of punishing a criminal's two upcoming generations? How would you find having to spend your life in prison for having a grandfather who commited a crime? If you think I just compared apples and oranges, please explain why.

The body of MAN=ADAM was sentenced to die because the female aspect of man was deceived and broke God's law. As long as one human being lives, Adam is still alive.

Wait, so Adam shouldn't be blamed, it is Eve who should be blamed? Adam couldn't stand responsible for his actions, but Eve could? Why?

If you wish to suck someone into a long senseless discussion on whether a child should suffer for the sins of its parents, I suggest that you seek out someone else.

Well you actually have rendered it slightly more sensible saying that we are Adam.

The laws passed down through Moses states that no child shall be held accountable for the sins of its parents and no parent shall suffer for the sins of their child.

But this law does not apply to God, who commanded his prophet Samuel to have King Saul destroy the entire Amalekite nation, man, woman and child, because of what their ancestors had done some 400 years earlier. See 1st Samuel chapter 15.

Ehm, this I did not know of at all. This is starting to sound like those people who stigmatize modern-day Europeans for the Triangular trade.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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1/10/2016 4:09:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:49:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

If I would have a family and children and I would gamble away any asset of my family, my family would suffer from it too, and also my futural grandchildren would have a slightly higher risk to be affected negatively too since they would have a parent who has experienced something like this.

If I would be an evil dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler, indeed many of my upcoming generations would be stigmatized of having me as an ancestor, even though they shouldn't be since they would barely have anything to do with me, many of them wouldn't even have interacted with me or even interacted with someone who has interacted with me. But this stigmatization would happen from some ignorant individuals, not from something higher as an institution, hopefully not at least.

This concept of original sin however is something totally different.

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

The only reason this effect carries on is because God decided it this way. N

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.

I didn't ask in order to strengthen a faith in the Bible, I asked to try to wrap my head around the mentality of:

Inheriting 10 000 year old guilt from a greatgreatx1000greatgrandfather = Totally sensible
North Korea making the two upcoming generations incarcerated in prison = Wooaaah this is something we should invade this country for

Wow, ok..well you ask a biblical question, and ya want me to give you an answer from some other source......makes no sense at all.

Next we can start a thread and ask a mathematician to give us an English composition answer to a math problem. That should turn out well.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 4:10:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:49:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

If I would have a family and children and I would gamble away any asset of my family, my family would suffer from it too, and also my futural grandchildren would have a slightly higher risk to be affected negatively too since they would have a parent who has experienced something like this.

If I would be an evil dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler, indeed many of my upcoming generations would be stigmatized of having me as an ancestor, even though they shouldn't be since they would barely have anything to do with me, many of them wouldn't even have interacted with me or even interacted with someone who has interacted with me. But this stigmatization would happen from some ignorant individuals, not from something higher as an institution, hopefully not at least.

This concept of original sin however is something totally different.

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

The only reason this effect carries on is because God decided it this way. N

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.

I didn't ask in order to strengthen a faith in the Bible, I asked to try to wrap my head around the mentality of:

Inheriting 10 000 year old guilt from a greatgreatx1000greatgrandfather = Totally sensible
North Korea making the two upcoming generations incarcerated in prison = Wooaaah this is something we should invade this country for

According to scripture, Adam was 130 years old he sired Seth and according to biblical time, that was just on 6,000 years ago, what's with the ten thousand years?
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 4:14:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 4:10:01 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:49:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

If I would have a family and children and I would gamble away any asset of my family, my family would suffer from it too, and also my futural grandchildren would have a slightly higher risk to be affected negatively too since they would have a parent who has experienced something like this.

If I would be an evil dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler, indeed many of my upcoming generations would be stigmatized of having me as an ancestor, even though they shouldn't be since they would barely have anything to do with me, many of them wouldn't even have interacted with me or even interacted with someone who has interacted with me. But this stigmatization would happen from some ignorant individuals, not from something higher as an institution, hopefully not at least.

This concept of original sin however is something totally different.

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

The only reason this effect carries on is because God decided it this way. N

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.

I didn't ask in order to strengthen a faith in the Bible, I asked to try to wrap my head around the mentality of:

Inheriting 10 000 year old guilt from a greatgreatx1000greatgrandfather = Totally sensible
North Korea making the two upcoming generations incarcerated in prison = Wooaaah this is something we should invade this country for

According to scripture, Adam was 130 years old he sired Seth and according to biblical time, that was just on 6,000 years ago, what's with the ten thousand years?

Doesn't change the argument much. I've heard people saying everything from 6000 to 10 000.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 4:42:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 4:14:39 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 4:10:01 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:49:57 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:31:31 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:17:56 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:09:38 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:02:20 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:19:35 AM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/10/2016 2:01:19 AM, Jovian wrote:
I will bump this since I never succeeded in getting someone promoting original sin to answer. We most certainly are punished for what Adam did. If anyone begs to differ, please read the third chapter of Genesis, where it inter alia clearly says that a woman's severe pains in childbirth was invented by God because of what Adam did (Genesis 3:16).

It doesn't really matter what a person answers, you will still reject it.

No one in this seemed to believe in the original sin.

I'll give my view on it.

God created man perfect, Adam and Eve had no idea what sin was but they did know what God told them was right and wrong, and Eve went against what God had instructed, and Adam followed suit.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone eventually would have gotten around to it, so I think that Adam and Eve got a bad rap. I suppose people can complain about them when they themselves are perfect. What are the chances of that happening?

Adam and Eve had authority over the whole of the earth, Adam was even allowed to name the animals.

When they handed over their rights for the sake of the ultimate liar with the ultimate lie, they lost that authority.

Cain, when he was angry, Jealous, and spiteful toward his brother, (all of which are part of the corruption that entered in.) God spoke to Cain.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

God already knows our hearts, but He does require honesty from each of us. No matter how "good," we think we are, or how hidden our shortcomings are...they are not hidden from God. How can something be changed when a person can't even be honest with themselves. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you see that Cain still had a choice? God was right there with him and Cain could have said, "Help me to overcome this corruption." But instead, we all know what Cain ended up doing.

This story about Cain was although a little off topic, at least to me.

Actually it right on topic, but I realized after I posted it that I should have included more detail about Cain.

Cain was born to Adam and Eve after sin entered into the word, and after they were put out of the garden.

The point was, Cain had a choice, he didn't have to be ruled by the sin and corruption that entered in. The same goes for each of us.

You are right now pretty much cherrypicking things. I've given you lots of examples which would be unfair for a god to do on these peoples offspring 6000-10 000 years later on only because of what their distant distant distant ancestors did, such as women having to experience pains beyond imagination in childbirths. Yet you keep pointing to how (adult) people could master their sinful thoughts, thoughts which God stands responsible for.

This inheriting of guilt makes North Korea's policy a paradise compared with this. If god used this policy, this original sin would had ended with Irad, son of Enoch.

Jovian, I'm not "cherry picking," things. I'm giving you good solid answers. Even though I knew that you would reject them.

If you make a huge decision that is wrong, are you the only one effected by it, or is your family (and others) effected by your choices?

If I would have a family and children and I would gamble away any asset of my family, my family would suffer from it too, and also my futural grandchildren would have a slightly higher risk to be affected negatively too since they would have a parent who has experienced something like this.

If I would be an evil dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler, indeed many of my upcoming generations would be stigmatized of having me as an ancestor, even though they shouldn't be since they would barely have anything to do with me, many of them wouldn't even have interacted with me or even interacted with someone who has interacted with me. But this stigmatization would happen from some ignorant individuals, not from something higher as an institution, hopefully not at least.

This concept of original sin however is something totally different.

You can do something good, or you can do something bad against another person, and the effects of that carry on. The bible actually offers examples of this. It goes in quite in depth on this subject,.
This is obviously on a much smaller scale the the original sin, and easier to grasp.

The only reason this effect carries on is because God decided it this way. N

But since you are already rejecting any biblical answers to a biblical question...I'll leave it at that.

I didn't ask in order to strengthen a faith in the Bible, I asked to try to wrap my head around the mentality of:

Inheriting 10 000 year old guilt from a greatgreatx1000greatgrandfather = Totally sensible
North Korea making the two upcoming generations incarcerated in prison = Wooaaah this is something we should invade this country for

According to scripture, Adam was 130 years old he sired Seth and according to biblical time, that was just on 6,000 years ago, what's with the ten thousand years?

Doesn't change the argument much. I've heard people saying everything from 6000 to 10 000.

Only those who have never put any real study into the scriptures would say ten thousand years.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
missmedic
Posts: 386
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1/10/2016 6:17:09 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

The guilt aspect is surreal, but basically the religiously blind-folded human wants to earn their way to forgiveness since that's the playing field they've been presented with. It's a kind of completely mindless, unsolvable conundrum that ensnares more than any other control device. Just think about the idea that we were "born into sin". What greater defenseless, innate bondage can you have? And all according to whom? And what?
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 6:51:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 6:17:09 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

The guilt aspect is surreal, but basically the religiously blind-folded human wants to earn their way to forgiveness since that's the playing field they've been presented with. It's a kind of completely mindless, unsolvable conundrum that ensnares more than any other control device. Just think about the idea that we were "born into sin". What greater defenseless, innate bondage can you have? And all according to whom? And what?

Forget about the original sin. Death is the penalty of sin and all have sinned and are deserving of death and no one can earn themselves a pardon. It is the SON OF MAN, who is (According to our concept of one directional linear time) currently developing within the body of mankind, who descends from his heights in time to take on the sins of the body in which he develops.

Now, everything that man has done, was done in obedience to his evolving indwelling spirit.

I didn't do it, it was done in obedience to JHWH=WHO I AM..
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/10/2016 6:54:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 6:17:09 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

The guilt aspect is surreal, but basically the religiously blind-folded human wants to earn their way to forgiveness since that's the playing field they've been presented with. It's a kind of completely mindless, unsolvable conundrum that ensnares more than any other control device. Just think about the idea that we were "born into sin". What greater defenseless, innate bondage can you have? And all according to whom? And what?

Forget about the original sin. Death is the penalty of sin and all have sinned and are deserving of death and no one can earn themselves a pardon. It is the SON OF MAN, who is (According to our concept of one directional linear time) currently developing within the body of mankind, who descends from his heights in time to take on the sins of the body in which he develops.

Now, everything that man has done, was done in obedience to his evolving indwelling spirit.

I didn't do it, it was done in obedience to JHWH=WHO I AM.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 6:29:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 6:54:56 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 6:17:09 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

The guilt aspect is surreal, but basically the religiously blind-folded human wants to earn their way to forgiveness since that's the playing field they've been presented with. It's a kind of completely mindless, unsolvable conundrum that ensnares more than any other control device. Just think about the idea that we were "born into sin". What greater defenseless, innate bondage can you have? And all according to whom? And what?

Forget about the original sin. Death is the penalty of sin and all have sinned

What have I done?
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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1/10/2016 6:30:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/10/2016 6:54:56 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 6:17:09 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

The guilt aspect is surreal, but basically the religiously blind-folded human wants to earn their way to forgiveness since that's the playing field they've been presented with. It's a kind of completely mindless, unsolvable conundrum that ensnares more than any other control device. Just think about the idea that we were "born into sin". What greater defenseless, innate bondage can you have? And all according to whom? And what?

Forget about the original sin. Death is the penalty of sin and all have sinned

Even more of a question, what crimes has a 3 day old baby done?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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1/10/2016 9:18:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 11/23/2015 8:57:05 PM, Jovian wrote:
Many of those who advocate this would never stop thinking this is justified. That it is totally OK that we humans today should be punished for what someone did 6000 years ago. (OK many of you religious people will not be of the opinion that Earth is 6000 years old, but it is at least a wide Christian doctrine, so I'm just using it as an example). But let me give other perspectives on this thing about inheriting guilt.

In North Korea, your two upcoming generations are jailed if you are jailed. I don't know for what crimes specifically, but I guess this goes for pretty much any crime. So, is this also justified? This is exactly the same. Inheriting guilt. By a very recent ancestor of yours, born only 50-70 years before you. With the logics about justification of inheriting guilt of your ancestor 6000 years ago, this North Korean inheriting of guilt from someone just a few decades ago in your family line, ought to be nothing at all, thus obviously justified.

But, I haven't seen a single person in the world who thinks North Korea's policy of this is justified at all. So do you who advocate the fall of the human also justify this North Korean policy? If not, how could it in any way be different? As I said, it would be more justified to use this policy in all countries than using the policy of that Adam's mistake 6000 years ago should be punished on us today.

We aren't punished for what Adam did.

We are however affected by it.

Just as Abraham's mistake of fathering a child by his wife's slave girl Hagar has led to us being troubled by IS today, so the condition into which Adam fell has been passed on to us like an inescapable hereditary illness or deformity.

It will be cured, but not yet, Jehovah has set the time aside for that, and it is not yet.

Why not yet is another question and a much longer answer involving more than one issue.