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Who is more oppressed?

nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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9/30/2010 8:34:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I was reading an article about a muslim woman and came across this comment: she said that her hijab makes her less oppressed than women who don't wear hijabs, or in other words, western women. I kind of get where she was going with it, but does it really make any sense? Do you agree/disagree?

Hopefully someone with some knowledge of Islam can chime in...
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 8:36:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It depends on your point of view I suppose. Some people may argue that the woman in hijab is less oppressed since she's not being objectified. I tend to not display my body and I certainly get less attention from guys.
tkubok
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9/30/2010 9:20:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 8:36:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It depends on your point of view I suppose. Some people may argue that the woman in hijab is less oppressed since she's not being objectified. I tend to not display my body and I certainly get less attention from guys.

Women who want to show off their body, dont do it because they are forced to. They choose to.

I suppose a woman who doesnt want to wear a skimpy outfit but is forced to, is more opressed than a woman who chooses to wear a burka or Hijab or whatever.

I dont think that matters, though. What matters, is that the western world would never stone a woman for refusing to wear a skimpy outfit.
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 9:25:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:20:29 PM, tkubok wrote:

Women who want to show off their body, dont do it because they are forced to. They choose to.

I suppose a woman who doesnt want to wear a skimpy outfit but is forced to, is more opressed than a woman who chooses to wear a burka or Hijab or whatever.

I dont think that matters, though. What matters, is that the western world would never stone a woman for refusing to wear a skimpy outfit.

Most muslim women cover up by choice though just like I choose not to wear skimpy outfits so that's a poor comparison.
lovelife
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9/30/2010 9:26:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 8:34:16 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I was reading an article about a muslim woman and came across this comment: she said that her hijab makes her less oppressed than women who don't wear hijabs, or in other words, western women. I kind of get where she was going with it, but does it really make any sense? Do you agree/disagree?

Hopefully someone with some knowledge of Islam can chime in...

They are. Here they can wear it if they want to there they get stoned for not wearing it or even being accused of not wearing it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 9:28:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:26:38 PM, lovelife wrote:

They are. Here they can wear it if they want to there they get stoned for not wearing it or even being accused of not wearing it.

It's in their scripture though to cover up. Technically, Christian and Jewish woman are also supposed to cover up, but most don't.
lovelife
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9/30/2010 9:34:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:28:54 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:26:38 PM, lovelife wrote:

They are. Here they can wear it if they want to there they get stoned for not wearing it or even being accused of not wearing it.

It's in their scripture though to cover up. Technically, Christian and Jewish woman are also supposed to cover up, but most don't.

They choose not to and scripture has no place in making laws. Because they are FORCED to and not CHOOSING to follow their faith and what it tells them (threatened with death if they don't follow it, or even accused of not following it) they are more oppressed. Actually I'm beginning to become really sick because of it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
tkubok
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9/30/2010 9:44:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:25:43 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Most muslim women cover up by choice though just like I choose not to wear skimpy outfits so that's a poor comparison.

But there are muslim women who dont want to, and they get raped for their choices. I think its an apt comparison, as I never said that Muslim women dont cover up by choice. But those that refuse to, are treated like whores and raped and beaten. Does the same thing happen in the western world? I surely hope not.
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 9:46:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:44:25 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:25:43 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Most muslim women cover up by choice though just like I choose not to wear skimpy outfits so that's a poor comparison.

But there are muslim women who dont want to, and they get raped for their choices. I think its an apt comparison, as I never said that Muslim women dont cover up by choice. But those that refuse to, are treated like whores and raped and beaten. Does the same thing happen in the western world? I surely hope not.

Many are though. Women who dress in skimpy clothes often get the wrong kind of attention. I do hear of them complaining about that, but I suppose it's their own fault for dressing like that.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Being objectified is not being oppressed.

Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

/thread
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/30/2010 9:51:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As for rape, that is separate from hijabs, whether the rapist chooses to make a negative correlation between them or not-- it's not the fabric's fault.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 9:52:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Being objectified is not being oppressed.

Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

/thread

I view objectification as oppression though. Again, it's all about the point of view.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/30/2010 10:04:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:52:07 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Being objectified is not being oppressed.

Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

/thread

I view objectification as oppression though. Again, it's all about the point of view.

Um, no, it's about definition. And you need to pull one out now.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
lovelife
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9/30/2010 10:07:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:46:16 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:44:25 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:25:43 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Most muslim women cover up by choice though just like I choose not to wear skimpy outfits so that's a poor comparison.

But there are muslim women who dont want to, and they get raped for their choices. I think its an apt comparison, as I never said that Muslim women dont cover up by choice. But those that refuse to, are treated like whores and raped and beaten. Does the same thing happen in the western world? I surely hope not.

Many are though. Women who dress in skimpy clothes often get the wrong kind of attention. I do hear of them complaining about that, but I suppose it's their own fault for dressing like that.

No. People can be proud of how they look and not want to cover it up like a f0ing bed. If I wear a bikini in the streets I'm not saying "hey lets f*ck you can beat and rape and torture me!!" I'm just choosing what to wear.

The only way it is ever the victims fault is if they verbally agree, or agree in writing or something similar. That was perhaps the most ridiculous thing I think I've heard you say and the thing that sickens me most about that culture/belief.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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9/30/2010 10:09:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:52:07 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Being objectified is not being oppressed.

Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

/thread

I view objectification as oppression though. Again, it's all about the point of view.

No. Both may be negative but they aren't the same.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Korashk
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9/30/2010 10:19:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

If wearing one is a requirement then it doesn't matter whether or not you want to wear one. You're still being oppressed.

Is a slave who enjoys his work and treatment not a slave?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/30/2010 10:26:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:19:42 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

If wearing one is a requirement then it doesn't matter whether or not you want to wear one. You're still being oppressed.

However, the OP did not say whether the woman in question was required to and by whom and how.

There are places in the Muslim world that aren't theocracies you know.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
lovelife
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9/30/2010 10:42:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:21:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
How is choosing to wear more clothing oppression? I don't understand. It's just fabric.

Choice isn't oppression, force is. Its barbaric and wrong.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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9/30/2010 10:45:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:42:04 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/30/2010 10:21:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
How is choosing to wear more clothing oppression? I don't understand. It's just fabric.

Choice isn't oppression, force is. Its barbaric and wrong.

I know. I was saying that in response to Korashk's post.
Korashk
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9/30/2010 10:47:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:26:01 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/30/2010 10:19:42 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

If wearing one is a requirement then it doesn't matter whether or not you want to wear one. You're still being oppressed.

However, the OP did not say whether the woman in question was required to and by whom and how.

There are places in the Muslim world that aren't theocracies you know.

True. If one chooses to wear a hijab where one is not required to then they are not being oppressed. Your statement, however, didn't clarify, it just said that if you choose to wear it then you're not being oppressed, which isn't true.

At 9/30/2010 10:21:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
How is choosing to wear more clothing oppression? I don't understand. It's just fabric.

If you don't have the option to not wear said fabric then it doesn't matter if you want to wear it or not. You're being oppressed because you aren't allowed to take it off in public even if you wanted to without punishment.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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9/30/2010 10:48:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's called coercion.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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9/30/2010 10:52:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:48:34 PM, Korashk wrote:
It's called coercion.

Meh, that's not exactly true.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
lovelife
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9/30/2010 10:54:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 10:52:23 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/30/2010 10:48:34 PM, Korashk wrote:
It's called coercion.

Meh, that's not exactly true.

Its called evil, wrong, immoral
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/1/2010 12:41:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:49:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Being objectified is not being oppressed.

Willingly wearing a hijab is not being oppressed.

/thread

Ragnar pwns everyone.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
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10/1/2010 12:44:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/30/2010 9:20:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
I dont think that matters, though. What matters, is that the western world would never stone a woman for refusing to wear a skimpy outfit.
Of course not. The Western world protects women so much that there are a few million prostitutes and some hundred thousands who get raped - annually. The Western world lets them choose an evil path, while another part of the world does not let them do so.
InsertNameHere
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10/1/2010 12:46:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/1/2010 12:42:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
A woman who chooses to wear hijab is not oppressed. She chooses to be recognized as a beautiful person inside, not outside.

I generally agree with this. Looks matter very little to me. Personality is what makes a person.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/1/2010 12:48:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
For your interest, when I see a woman wearing a flood of make-up on her face, has her body dipped in with fake tan from fashion creams, looks at herself at every window on the street to make sure she looks good, tries to pretend to be valuable by not even greeting someone in a mannerly way, I feel more sad for her than I would ever feel for a woman at chooses to wear niqab or burqa.
Korashk
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10/1/2010 12:52:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/1/2010 12:42:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
A woman who chooses to wear hijab is not oppressed. She chooses to be recognized as a beautiful person inside, not outside.

Not true. In Iran, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia (I think) those that wear the hijab or other head coverings are required to by law. This is oppression, even if some/many wear it willingly.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown