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Regarding Faith & Free Will

Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?
uncung
Posts: 3,464
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11/25/2015 1:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

because in our modern era with advanced technology we do no longer childish miracles such walking on the water, turning the water into the wine and so on. We may use the science to examine the religion.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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11/25/2015 1:36:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I'm not a fellow believer, so I hope you don't mind my chiming in. My observation is that God (assuming He exists) is the sole reason why belief in His existence is possible in the first place. Without revealed information (i.e. inspired scriptures, prophets), demonstrations (miracles), or an intrinsic knowledge, then we would not conceive of God. So, in providing this information, God has already significantly influenced everyone who has ever been exposed to this information. God has already violated our so-called "free will". So, His reluctance to act cannot logically be because He doesn't want to influence people.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/25/2015 2:12:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 1:36:41 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I'm not a fellow believer, so I hope you don't mind my chiming in. My observation is that God (assuming He exists) is the sole reason why belief in His existence is possible in the first place. Without revealed information (i.e. inspired scriptures, prophets), demonstrations (miracles), or an intrinsic knowledge, then we would not conceive of God. So, in providing this information, God has already significantly influenced everyone who has ever been exposed to this information. God has already violated our so-called "free will". So, His reluctance to act cannot logically be because He doesn't want to influence people.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your insight :)

Also how do you mean " God has already violated our so-called "free will"? I believe I understand where you're coming from but if you can elaborate so that I'm not mistaken.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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11/25/2015 2:36:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 2:12:03 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/25/2015 1:36:41 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I'm not a fellow believer, so I hope you don't mind my chiming in. My observation is that God (assuming He exists) is the sole reason why belief in His existence is possible in the first place. Without revealed information (i.e. inspired scriptures, prophets), demonstrations (miracles), or an intrinsic knowledge, then we would not conceive of God. So, in providing this information, God has already significantly influenced everyone who has ever been exposed to this information. God has already violated our so-called "free will". So, His reluctance to act cannot logically be because He doesn't want to influence people.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your insight :)

Sure. And don't hesitate to voice any disagreements, if you have any.

Also how do you mean " God has already violated our so-called "free will"? I believe I understand where you're coming from but if you can elaborate so that I'm not mistaken.

1. I personally believe that the traditional notion of "free will" is absurd; it basically says that we are free to make choices, and always had the ability to have chosen otherwise. I don't believe this is true. If you were placed back in time to a situation in which you regretted your action, and the conditions were the same (same knowledge, same feelings, everything), would you really be able to do something different? This same conundrum is applicable to the present, as well. Just like in classical physics, the conditions dictate the result.

2. "Free Will" is logically incompatible with an omniscient God. If it is possible for your future actions to be known, then how can it be said that you have free will?

3. Many theists people will argue that God cannot or will not interfere with a person's Free Will, commonly in response to an atheist's inquiry as to why God doesn't show Himself or stop evil events. My argument is that He has already influenced us with information, so that cannot be used as an excuse.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/25/2015 2:49:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 2:36:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 2:12:03 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/25/2015 1:36:41 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I'm not a fellow believer, so I hope you don't mind my chiming in. My observation is that God (assuming He exists) is the sole reason why belief in His existence is possible in the first place. Without revealed information (i.e. inspired scriptures, prophets), demonstrations (miracles), or an intrinsic knowledge, then we would not conceive of God. So, in providing this information, God has already significantly influenced everyone who has ever been exposed to this information. God has already violated our so-called "free will". So, His reluctance to act cannot logically be because He doesn't want to influence people.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your insight :)

Sure. And don't hesitate to voice any disagreements, if you have any.

Also how do you mean " God has already violated our so-called "free will"? I believe I understand where you're coming from but if you can elaborate so that I'm not mistaken.

1. I personally believe that the traditional notion of "free will" is absurd; it basically says that we are free to make choices, and always had the ability to have chosen otherwise. I don't believe this is true. If you were placed back in time to a situation in which you regretted your action, and the conditions were the same (same knowledge, same feelings, everything), would you really be able to do something different? This same conundrum is applicable to the present, as well. Just like in classical physics, the conditions dictate the result.

I agree with this analysis. Without knowledge of regretting said event, you would not be able to choose a different option, seeing as how that was the original action you took in the first place.

2. "Free Will" is logically incompatible with an omniscient God. If it is possible for your future actions to be known, then how can it be said that you have free will?

Free will in knowing YOU control your actions perhaps? But I do see your point about it not being quite free will if your future has already been mapped out prior to your approval.

3. Many theists people will argue that God cannot or will not interfere with a person's Free Will, commonly in response to an atheist's inquiry as to why God doesn't show Himself or stop evil events. My argument is that He has already influenced us with information, so that cannot be used as an excuse.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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11/25/2015 3:19:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 2:49:33 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/25/2015 2:36:37 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 2:12:03 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/25/2015 1:36:41 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I'm not a fellow believer, so I hope you don't mind my chiming in. My observation is that God (assuming He exists) is the sole reason why belief in His existence is possible in the first place. Without revealed information (i.e. inspired scriptures, prophets), demonstrations (miracles), or an intrinsic knowledge, then we would not conceive of God. So, in providing this information, God has already significantly influenced everyone who has ever been exposed to this information. God has already violated our so-called "free will". So, His reluctance to act cannot logically be because He doesn't want to influence people.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your insight :)

Sure. And don't hesitate to voice any disagreements, if you have any.

Also how do you mean " God has already violated our so-called "free will"? I believe I understand where you're coming from but if you can elaborate so that I'm not mistaken.

1. I personally believe that the traditional notion of "free will" is absurd; it basically says that we are free to make choices, and always had the ability to have chosen otherwise. I don't believe this is true. If you were placed back in time to a situation in which you regretted your action, and the conditions were the same (same knowledge, same feelings, everything), would you really be able to do something different? This same conundrum is applicable to the present, as well. Just like in classical physics, the conditions dictate the result.

I agree with this analysis. Without knowledge of regretting said event, you would not be able to choose a different option, seeing as how that was the original action you took in the first place.

2. "Free Will" is logically incompatible with an omniscient God. If it is possible for your future actions to be known, then how can it be said that you have free will?

Free will in knowing YOU control your actions perhaps? But I do see your point about it not being quite free will if your future has already been mapped out prior to your approval.

That first statement is correct. Free Will is, at best, an illusion.

3. Many theists people will argue that God cannot or will not interfere with a person's Free Will, commonly in response to an atheist's inquiry as to why God doesn't show Himself or stop evil events. My argument is that He has already influenced us with information, so that cannot be used as an excuse.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 3:20:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

That's a pretty poor reason, especially considering that it didn't force people to become believers back in the first century.

The reason is that the design and purpose of miracles is no longer apropos. In general, the purpose was to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the speaker/writer truly possessed a message from God.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/25/2015 3:48:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

Hmm, I see where you're coming from. Still, wouldn't you say the world today is still at great peril? Isis? World hunger? Senseless mass shootings? I think what I'm asking is, why do the people of today need to rely on faith when the people of the biblical era could rely on sight, as well as faith?

Thank you for taking the time to reply :)

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 3:53:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 3:48:55 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

Hmm, I see where you're coming from. Still, wouldn't you say the world today is still at great peril? Isis? World hunger? Senseless mass shootings? I think what I'm asking is, why do the people of today need to rely on faith when the people of the biblical era could rely on sight, as well as faith?

Thank you for taking the time to reply :)

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

Even though it is scriptural that signs and wonders happened and I think they still should, many of biblical times saw these wonders and still did not believe, so even when as far as to say they were not miracles or even it was the devil who did the miracles, so faith was still required even then..

again I often think how did some see these things and not believe, those who saw Jesus, even perhaps walked with him for some time still struggled with their faith...

So people today not believing is hardly surprising and once science was declared all knowing and all powerful and nothing could exist unless science declared it possible things just got worse I guess...
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/25/2015 4:06:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

Faith and free will don"t mix, and don"t coexist within a person soundly, otherwise the person is double minded.

Free will is something that is maintained as a justification for the non-believer. Actually the non-believer"s religion if you will. Judging for themselves what is good, and good for themselves that always results in death. Faith (belief/trust) on the other hand, in the Word of God, is to submit to the understanding that the Lord God is the Judge of what is good for His creation and all that"s in it, no exceptions. And even logically the Creator and Judge would have to be the wisest on what is good for what He made, considering the end result is Life, Life everlasting in our case.

Miracles are an outward verification or affirmation that the person the miracle comes through is in the Presence of God and God"s, and one should trust that the Word of God that is repeated by this person to God"s satisfaction. Even Jesus said "believe the works: that ye may know, and believe".

As far as the concept, of wittiness eliminates men"s desire for free will, no, the Pharisees and the like witnessed miracles, heard of miracles constantly in Jesus" day and refuse to acknowledge Him as the promised Son of God, even if they knew He was. But it is true that revelation is knowledge and knowledge is actually an acknowledgment, of what was revealed.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers..

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away, don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles..

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer..
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 9:08:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 9:12:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 9:08:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 9:17:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 9:12:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:08:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/25/2015 9:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 9:17:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:12:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:08:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/25/2015 9:35:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 9:20:57 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:17:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:12:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:08:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 9:06:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 7:48:21 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 6:59:43 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 5:03:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:49:19 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:22:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/25/2015 3:16:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

I often ask this question and I do not really know the answer, I often think is it because we are not at the level of need there was then, some relied on every meal to be given to them as they had nothing, many relied on being healed of things that now mean a trip to the doctors...

In reality if Jesus is the same yesterday today and foreve we should still be seeing miracles..

No, it doesn't. "The same yesterday today and forever" doesn't mean "still does the same things."

just saying "no" doesn't really cut it, give a good reason..

Jesus also said to the believers you will do even greater things than I, he call his closest friends for having no faith when they failed to heal, it seems jesus still wants us in the miracle business...

Jesus said THAT to His apostles - not to all believers in general for all time. And the fact that Jesus mildly rebuked his apostles for failing to heal people hasn't got a thing in the world to do with us 2,000 years later. That's why there is no such thing as a miracle today.

The "good reason" is that New Testament miracles were to confirm the word, i. e. to confirm that the one performing the miracle had a message from God. Claiming that miracles still exist is equivalent to claiming that the word of God stands unconfirmed.

are we not believers, are we not to do even greater than Jesus..

I've already answered that. Yes, we are believers, and no, the ability to perform miracles was never promised to all believers for all time.

don't we have the Holy Spirit in us as believers.

We have the Holy Spirit operating in us solely through His confirmed word, not directly.

what makes you think the power of God on believers has passed away,

Because the design and purpose of NT miracles was confirmatory, i. e. to confirm the word of God.

don't you believe their are still gifts of the spirit and the abilty through God to heal and do miracles.

I've already said that I didn't. Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?

6"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Spoken to the apostles.

what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT? Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Again, to you and I, believing comes easy but to countless others, he's merely a fairy tale. I'd say that no, the word of God has not been confirmed. . .entirely.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/26/2015 5:28:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT?

Because new or addition revelation requires new confirmation. In the first century, a new covenant was being introduced.

Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Absolutely, if God is speaking directly through anyone today, we might naturally expect that person to confirm his revelation(s) by miraculous signs.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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11/26/2015 6:43:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 12:14:40 PM, Micheal21 wrote:
I've passed this question to fellow believers (Why doesn't God perform miracles like he did back then?) and I often get the answer (Because then we would be forced to believe and that isn't free will).

i love it when believers say that, i think it's hilarious, and shows how little thought they put into their beliefs.
doesn't satan have free will?
doesn't satan know that your god exists, and what your god is capable of more than any human?
and yet knowing all that satan still rejects your god


Lately I've been reading the bible/watching stories of the bible and I can't help but notice that God & Jesus performed many miracles in public. Miracles that have actually won over several of his close followers along with thousands of eye-witnesses. Is it safe to assume then that these followers were stripped of their free-will and that their devotion wasn't out of love? If not, then how can the above, stated answer be accurate?

or their devotion is out of fear of being tortured forever by an evil and sadistic god

or those stories are only stories and those miracles didn't actually happen
there are millions of eyewitnesses to big-foot and alien abductions is that enough to convince you?

if you think i'm wrong, then i dare you to pray for me
i want you to pray that i receive proof that your god is real
i want a life changing event, no matter what it takes

until that happens either your god doesn't exist, or your god doesn't want me to believe that it exists
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/26/2015 6:52:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 5:28:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT?

Because new or addition revelation requires new confirmation. In the first century, a new covenant was being introduced.

Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Absolutely, if God is speaking directly through anyone today, we might naturally expect that person to confirm his revelation(s) by miraculous signs.

Has this occurred? Have we recieved undeniable world wide proof of miracles? Speaking from personal experience, miracles have happened in my life. Mother recovering from a coma after all hope was lost. Suicidal attempt failed after the chances of survival was almost non-existent. Etc. I can only speak for myself but it would seem much of the world is in desperate need of a miracle.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/26/2015 7:57:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 6:52:04 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:28:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT?

Because new or addition revelation requires new confirmation. In the first century, a new covenant was being introduced.

Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Absolutely, if God is speaking directly through anyone today, we might naturally expect that person to confirm his revelation(s) by miraculous signs.

Has this occurred?

No

Have we recieved undeniable world wide proof of miracles?

Of course not.

Speaking from personal experience, miracles have happened in my life. Mother recovering from a coma after all hope was lost.

That's not a miracle.

Suicidal attempt failed after the chances of survival was almost non-existent. Etc. I can only speak for myself but it would seem much of the world is in desperate need of a miracle.

That's not a miracle either.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/26/2015 10:16:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 7:57:30 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 6:52:04 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:28:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT?

Because new or addition revelation requires new confirmation. In the first century, a new covenant was being introduced.

Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Absolutely, if God is speaking directly through anyone today, we might naturally expect that person to confirm his revelation(s) by miraculous signs.

Has this occurred?

No

Have we recieved undeniable world wide proof of miracles?

Of course not.

Speaking from personal experience, miracles have happened in my life. Mother recovering from a coma after all hope was lost.

That's not a miracle.

Are you a Doctor? My guess is no. Infact, the very doctors themselves who treated her used the exact wordings "We didn't expect her to pull through. It's quite a miracle." The situation was so dire that they already had me signing off on the forms on pulling her off of life support. Unless you're a certified professional in the medical field, you don't get to write it off as "not a miracle". Unless, you have an in-depth thesis on how a brain dead, foot-in-the-grave patient was able to recover. I'll wait for your analysis.

Suicidal attempt failed after the chances of survival was almost non-existent. Etc. I can only speak for myself but it would seem much of the world is in desperate need of a miracle.

I would love to go into the gruesome tale of my suicide attempt and why I wasn't expected to survive it but somehow I don't think it'll get through to you. Also would prefer not to rehash old emotions.

That's not a miracle either.
Micheal21
Posts: 39
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11/26/2015 10:21:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 10:16:44 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 7:57:30 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 6:52:04 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:28:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2015 5:14:03 AM, Micheal21 wrote:
what reason is there to believe this does not apply to every believer.

Miracles still exist if the word stands unconfirmed and uncertified.
where in scripture does it say that miracles were only for believers of thAT TIME...??

what scripture says we only have the holy spirit through the confirmed word??

what makes you say the miracles were only confirmatory, by what scripture...??

yes it was spoken to the apostles butwhat sciprture says that is not for all believers now, ??

Four questions? I only asked ONE - and you forgot to answer it:

"Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?"

what do you mean?? I have no idea what you are talking about...

show me scriptures that show what I have asked??/ if you can...??

Why, here's an example of it:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

There are perhaps ten or fifteen other statements to the same effect, i. e. that the purpose of miraculous signs was to confirm the word.

I asked, "Do you insist that the word of God stands unconfirmed?" And you claim that you do not understand the question? It's pretty easy!

The same concept is implied in Heb 2: 3:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him"

may I ask what denomination you follow??

by the way you have shown me vagries that mean precious little..

show me scripture that says the gifts are only for a certain time or have finished now??

Land's sakes, I asked you ONE simple question: has the word of God (with particular reference to the New Testament), been confirmed? Or does it lack confirmation? You can't even answer that. You see it as a trap, I guess.

Dude, this isn't a questioning match where we see who can ask the most questions and answer the least. If those are your criteria, I'll concede to you.

In my honest opinion, maybe to you, I and any other believer the word of God has been confirmed through scripture. But unfortunately, to millions (billions?) of others, God is imaginery, much like it was back then. In fact, I'd even wager that skepticism is stronger today than it was back then. By your explanation, would the word of God have not been confirmed in the Old Testament? Therefore why the need for confirmation in the NT?

Because new or addition revelation requires new confirmation. In the first century, a new covenant was being introduced.

Should not the modern world recieve the same type of confirmation?

Absolutely, if God is speaking directly through anyone today, we might naturally expect that person to confirm his revelation(s) by miraculous signs.

Has this occurred?

No

Have we recieved undeniable world wide proof of miracles?

Of course not.

Speaking from personal experience, miracles have happened in my life. Mother recovering from a coma after all hope was lost.

That's not a miracle.

Are you a Doctor? My guess is no. Infact, the very doctors themselves who treated her used the exact wordings "We didn't expect her to pull through. It's quite a miracle." The situation was so dire that they already had me signing off on the forms on pulling her off of life support. Unless you're a certified professional in the medical field, you don't get to write it off as "not a miracle". Unless, you have an in-depth thesis on how a brain dead, foot-in-the-grave patient was able to recover. I'll wait for your analysis.

Suicidal attempt failed after the chances of survival was almost non-existent. Etc. I can only speak for myself but it would seem much of the world is in desperate need of a miracle.

That's not a miracle either.
I would love to go into the gruesome tale of my suicide attempt and why I wasn't expected to survive it but somehow I don't think it'll get through to you. Also would prefer not to rehash old emotions.

Oops :) still trying to get used to navigating this forum with my phone. Corrected the reply placement.