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Who was the "Rich Man" of Luke 16:19-30?

MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This has got to be on of the most frequently misapplied passages in scripture, and that misapplication is a gross slander on the name of Jehovah and of his son.

Luke 16:19-30American Standard Version (ASV)

19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of ISrael".

Who were these sheep? and why were they lost?

Judaism had long since been an apostasy on the true faith that Israel had once followed, haltingly. The gulf between those who needed to be taught the law correctly, and those who taught it grew ever larger as Judaism broke up into various sects and it's teachers took on grand titles for themselves and gathered riches from their "flocks".

That is the true basis for Jesus illustration above.

The beggar, lazarus, presumably named to make him appear more real to the people, though no-one really knows why he is named, represented those "lost sheep" starved of true teachings which turned them into spiritual beggars.

The Rich man represents those religious leaders, not because they were materially rich, though most were, but because they had the riches of true worship in their hands but were keeping them to themselves and using them for their won purposes.

When Jesus came he reversed their roles. He taught those who were starved of truth, and condemned the religious leaders for their Apostasy.

Were they tormented by this?

Very much so, in fact they plotted many times to have Christ killed, and eventually succeeded, so painful did they find his words and his opening the eyes of the people to their perfidy. They knew that if the people listened to Christ they would lose their high standing and their riches.

That was their torment, the death of their place of respect in the eyes of the people, not some fiery Hell which would never even enter the mind of Christ's loving father Jehovah.

After all, eternal destruction is far more effective, far less trouble, and far easier to administer. It is a once and for all, permanent solution.

So take note of Jesus instruction at John 17:3, and get to know the personalities of himself and of his father. After all, not only does scripture teach us what Jehovah is really like if we trouble to study it deeply enough, but we have the perfect pattern to follow in Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son on earth, who was, and is, the mental image of his father, as Paul points out at 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You would be wise to do so, because, as Jesus says, your eternal life hinges on your getting to know them both well enough to understand just what Jehovah will do, and cannot possibly allow himself to do .
eli-stills
Posts: 27
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11/26/2015 11:41:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
This has got to be on of the most frequently misapplied passages in scripture, and that misapplication is a gross slander on the name of Jehovah and of his son.

Luke 16:19-30American Standard Version (ASV)

19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of ISrael".

Who were these sheep? and why were they lost?

Judaism had long since been an apostasy on the true faith that Israel had once followed, haltingly. The gulf between those who needed to be taught the law correctly, and those who taught it grew ever larger as Judaism broke up into various sects and it's teachers took on grand titles for themselves and gathered riches from their "flocks".

That is the true basis for Jesus illustration above.

The beggar, lazarus, presumably named to make him appear more real to the people, though no-one really knows why he is named, represented those "lost sheep" starved of true teachings which turned them into spiritual beggars.

The Rich man represents those religious leaders, not because they were materially rich, though most were, but because they had the riches of true worship in their hands but were keeping them to themselves and using them for their won purposes.

When Jesus came he reversed their roles. He taught those who were starved of truth, and condemned the religious leaders for their Apostasy.

Were they tormented by this?

Very much so, in fact they plotted many times to have Christ killed, and eventually succeeded, so painful did they find his words and his opening the eyes of the people to their perfidy. They knew that if the people listened to Christ they would lose their high standing and their riches.

That was their torment, the death of their place of respect in the eyes of the people, not some fiery Hell which would never even enter the mind of Christ's loving father Jehovah.

After all, eternal destruction is far more effective, far less trouble, and far easier to administer. It is a once and for all, permanent solution.

So take note of Jesus instruction at John 17:3, and get to know the personalities of himself and of his father. After all, not only does scripture teach us what Jehovah is really like if we trouble to study it deeply enough, but we have the perfect pattern to follow in Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son on earth, who was, and is, the mental image of his father, as Paul points out at 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You would be wise to do so, because, as Jesus says, your eternal life hinges on your getting to know them both well enough to understand just what Jehovah will do, and cannot possibly allow himself to do .

Rich man = blessed by God = righteous
Dressed in purple = leader = blessed by God = righteous

Are you familiar with the Myth of Ur contained in Plato"s work The Republic and/or the influence of Platonism on Jewish thought prior to Jesus" ministry as described by Josephus or put into practice by Philo of Alexandria?

I ask because it appears that I agree with your conclusion but don"t understand your reasoning. With an understanding of the teachings and beliefs of the religious leaders of Jesus" day one can see that the intent of the parable was to admonish the Pharisaic community for their beliefs in the very condemnation to hellfire that many suppose the parable supports. Yet when you site the parable you leave out the concluding line, which explains the purpose of the parable and its synergy with the Myth of Er and the sign of Jonah.

Luke
16:30 ""No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."
16:31 "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.""

My conclusion is that the Jesus figure was not only turning upside down the Pharisaic notion of righteousness and heavenly rewards but calling into question the reasonability of a hell of separation and torments for sinners that they had adopted under the period of Hellinization.

Hence the statement "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead".

Would such arguments reinforce or disturb your conclusions regarding the parable?

Eli
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/27/2015 6:26:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:41:56 PM, eli-stills wrote:
At 11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
This has got to be on of the most frequently misapplied passages in scripture, and that misapplication is a gross slander on the name of Jehovah and of his son.

Luke 16:19-30American Standard Version (ASV)

19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of ISrael".

Who were these sheep? and why were they lost?

Judaism had long since been an apostasy on the true faith that Israel had once followed, haltingly. The gulf between those who needed to be taught the law correctly, and those who taught it grew ever larger as Judaism broke up into various sects and it's teachers took on grand titles for themselves and gathered riches from their "flocks".

That is the true basis for Jesus illustration above.

The beggar, lazarus, presumably named to make him appear more real to the people, though no-one really knows why he is named, represented those "lost sheep" starved of true teachings which turned them into spiritual beggars.

The Rich man represents those religious leaders, not because they were materially rich, though most were, but because they had the riches of true worship in their hands but were keeping them to themselves and using them for their won purposes.

When Jesus came he reversed their roles. He taught those who were starved of truth, and condemned the religious leaders for their Apostasy.

Were they tormented by this?

Very much so, in fact they plotted many times to have Christ killed, and eventually succeeded, so painful did they find his words and his opening the eyes of the people to their perfidy. They knew that if the people listened to Christ they would lose their high standing and their riches.

That was their torment, the death of their place of respect in the eyes of the people, not some fiery Hell which would never even enter the mind of Christ's loving father Jehovah.

After all, eternal destruction is far more effective, far less trouble, and far easier to administer. It is a once and for all, permanent solution.

So take note of Jesus instruction at John 17:3, and get to know the personalities of himself and of his father. After all, not only does scripture teach us what Jehovah is really like if we trouble to study it deeply enough, but we have the perfect pattern to follow in Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son on earth, who was, and is, the mental image of his father, as Paul points out at 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You would be wise to do so, because, as Jesus says, your eternal life hinges on your getting to know them both well enough to understand just what Jehovah will do, and cannot possibly allow himself to do .

Rich man = blessed by God = righteous
Dressed in purple = leader = blessed by God = righteous

That is a commonly held, but very false notion, and certainly has no part in Jesus illustration.


Are you familiar with the Myth of Ur contained in Plato"s work The Republic and/or the influence of Platonism on Jewish thought prior to Jesus" ministry as described by Josephus or put into practice by Philo of Alexandria?

I ask because it appears that I agree with your conclusion but don"t understand your reasoning. With an understanding of the teachings and beliefs of the religious leaders of Jesus" day one can see that the intent of the parable was to admonish the Pharisaic community for their beliefs in the very condemnation to hellfire that many suppose the parable supports. Yet when you site the parable you leave out the concluding line, which explains the purpose of the parable and its synergy with the Myth of Er and the sign of Jonah.

Luke
16:30 ""No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."
16:31 "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.""

My conclusion is that the Jesus figure was not only turning upside down the Pharisaic notion of righteousness and heavenly rewards but calling into question the reasonability of a hell of separation and torments for sinners that they had adopted under the period of Hellinization.

Hence the statement "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead".

Would such arguments reinforce or disturb your conclusions regarding the parable?

Eli

The Illustration is as I have explained it.

Jesus was saying that they had all the proofs they needed in the scriptures, if they didn't believe them, then no miracle would make them do so.

The scriptrues are the riches they were hoarding to themselves by not teaching the people properly.

The same is true of Christendom from the start of the 2nd century until today.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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11/27/2015 6:28:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/27/2015 6:26:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2015 11:41:56 PM, eli-stills wrote:
At 11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
This has got to be on of the most frequently misapplied passages in scripture, and that misapplication is a gross slander on the name of Jehovah and of his son.

Luke 16:19-30American Standard Version (ASV)

19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of ISrael".

Who were these sheep? and why were they lost?

Judaism had long since been an apostasy on the true faith that Israel had once followed, haltingly. The gulf between those who needed to be taught the law correctly, and those who taught it grew ever larger as Judaism broke up into various sects and it's teachers took on grand titles for themselves and gathered riches from their "flocks".

That is the true basis for Jesus illustration above.

The beggar, lazarus, presumably named to make him appear more real to the people, though no-one really knows why he is named, represented those "lost sheep" starved of true teachings which turned them into spiritual beggars.

The Rich man represents those religious leaders, not because they were materially rich, though most were, but because they had the riches of true worship in their hands but were keeping them to themselves and using them for their won purposes.

When Jesus came he reversed their roles. He taught those who were starved of truth, and condemned the religious leaders for their Apostasy.

Were they tormented by this?

Very much so, in fact they plotted many times to have Christ killed, and eventually succeeded, so painful did they find his words and his opening the eyes of the people to their perfidy. They knew that if the people listened to Christ they would lose their high standing and their riches.

That was their torment, the death of their place of respect in the eyes of the people, not some fiery Hell which would never even enter the mind of Christ's loving father Jehovah.

After all, eternal destruction is far more effective, far less trouble, and far easier to administer. It is a once and for all, permanent solution.

So take note of Jesus instruction at John 17:3, and get to know the personalities of himself and of his father. After all, not only does scripture teach us what Jehovah is really like if we trouble to study it deeply enough, but we have the perfect pattern to follow in Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son on earth, who was, and is, the mental image of his father, as Paul points out at 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You would be wise to do so, because, as Jesus says, your eternal life hinges on your getting to know them both well enough to understand just what Jehovah will do, and cannot possibly allow himself to do .

Rich man = blessed by God = righteous
Dressed in purple = leader = blessed by God = righteous

That is a commonly held, but very false notion, and certainly has no part in Jesus illustration.


Are you familiar with the Myth of Ur contained in Plato"s work The Republic and/or the influence of Platonism on Jewish thought prior to Jesus" ministry as described by Josephus or put into practice by Philo of Alexandria?

I ask because it appears that I agree with your conclusion but don"t understand your reasoning. With an understanding of the teachings and beliefs of the religious leaders of Jesus" day one can see that the intent of the parable was to admonish the Pharisaic community for their beliefs in the very condemnation to hellfire that many suppose the parable supports. Yet when you site the parable you leave out the concluding line, which explains the purpose of the parable and its synergy with the Myth of Er and the sign of Jonah.

Luke
16:30 ""No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."
16:31 "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.""

My conclusion is that the Jesus figure was not only turning upside down the Pharisaic notion of righteousness and heavenly rewards but calling into question the reasonability of a hell of separation and torments for sinners that they had adopted under the period of Hellinization.

Hence the statement "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead".

Would such arguments reinforce or disturb your conclusions regarding the parable?

Eli

The Illustration is as I have explained it.

Jesus was saying that they had all the proofs they needed in the scriptures, if they didn't believe them, then no miracle would make them do so.

The scriptrues are the riches they were hoarding to themselves by not teaching the people properly.

The same is true of Christendom from the start of the 2nd century until today.

Nobody lights a candle and places it under a basket... except God according to JWs.
eli-stills
Posts: 27
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11/27/2015 9:57:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


Rich man = blessed by God = righteous
Dressed in purple = leader = blessed by God = righteous

That is a commonly held, but very false notion, and certainly has no part in Jesus illustration.

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day."

Everyone else is wrong and it has no part in Jesus's illustration?

Are you familiar with the Myth of Ur contained in Plato"s work The Republic and/or the influence of Platonism on Jewish thought prior to Jesus" ministry as described by Josephus or put into practice by Philo of Alexandria?

I ask because it appears that I agree with your conclusion but don"t understand your reasoning. With an understanding of the teachings and beliefs of the religious leaders of Jesus" day one can see that the intent of the parable was to admonish the Pharisaic community for their beliefs in the very condemnation to hellfire that many suppose the parable supports. Yet when you site the parable you leave out the concluding line, which explains the purpose of the parable and its synergy with the Myth of Er and the sign of Jonah.

Luke
16:30 ""No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."
16:31 "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.""

My conclusion is that the Jesus figure was not only turning upside down the Pharisaic notion of righteousness and heavenly rewards but calling into question the reasonability of a hell of separation and torments for sinners that they had adopted under the period of Hellinization.

Hence the statement "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead".

Would such arguments reinforce or disturb your conclusions regarding the parable?

Eli

The Illustration is as I have explained it.

Jesus was saying that they had all the proofs they needed in the scriptures, if they didn't believe them, then no miracle would make them do so.

The scriptrues are the riches they were hoarding to themselves by not teaching the people properly.

The same is true of Christendom from the start of the 2nd century until today.

Sounds like you have it all worked out then.
Sorry to bother you with my offer of historical references and arguments.

Eli
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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11/27/2015 10:09:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:26:06 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
This has got to be on of the most frequently misapplied passages in scripture, and that misapplication is a gross slander on the name of Jehovah and of his son.

Luke 16:19-30American Standard Version (ASV)

19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep of ISrael".

Who were these sheep? and why were they lost?

Judaism had long since been an apostasy on the true faith that Israel had once followed, haltingly. The gulf between those who needed to be taught the law correctly, and those who taught it grew ever larger as Judaism broke up into various sects and it's teachers took on grand titles for themselves and gathered riches from their "flocks".

That is the true basis for Jesus illustration above.

The beggar, lazarus, presumably named to make him appear more real to the people, though no-one really knows why he is named, represented those "lost sheep" starved of true teachings which turned them into spiritual beggars.

The Rich man represents those religious leaders, not because they were materially rich, though most were, but because they had the riches of true worship in their hands but were keeping them to themselves and using them for their won purposes.

When Jesus came he reversed their roles. He taught those who were starved of truth, and condemned the religious leaders for their Apostasy.

Were they tormented by this?

Very much so, in fact they plotted many times to have Christ killed, and eventually succeeded, so painful did they find his words and his opening the eyes of the people to their perfidy. They knew that if the people listened to Christ they would lose their high standing and their riches.

That was their torment, the death of their place of respect in the eyes of the people, not some fiery Hell which would never even enter the mind of Christ's loving father Jehovah.

After all, eternal destruction is far more effective, far less trouble, and far easier to administer. It is a once and for all, permanent solution.

So take note of Jesus instruction at John 17:3, and get to know the personalities of himself and of his father. After all, not only does scripture teach us what Jehovah is really like if we trouble to study it deeply enough, but we have the perfect pattern to follow in Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son on earth, who was, and is, the mental image of his father, as Paul points out at 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You would be wise to do so, because, as Jesus says, your eternal life hinges on your getting to know them both well enough to understand just what Jehovah will do, and cannot possibly allow himself to do .

Then it would be exceedingly becoming for you to explain

(1) Why the use of the phrase "certain rich man"
(2) The significance of calling the beggar by name
(3) The significance of stating that the rich man was buried
(4) The significance of the rich man's pleas on behalf of his five brothers
(5) The significance of five brothers
(6) The meaning of the "great gulf" which could not be crossed after death.
(7) Why in the world Jesus would choose this ONE INSTANCE to relate a story that was, according to you, impossible as well as totally contrary to what the scriptures teach.

Now, you've never done very well at any of that. In fact, you make the whole thing out to be some sort of poorly-constructed parable with a bunch of unnecessary and inexplicable details. Your basic defense (which is the same one Russell offered) is, "It just can't be that way because God wouldn't do that." Of course, Russell was also spouting his usual nonsense about 1874, 1878, and 1914 at the time - so he might not be the most reliable commentator.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."