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Obvious Indoctrination

Aj841
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11/28/2015 4:26:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have been wondering for a while now that all around the world people are born into cultures in which in the sense of the majority, tend to take on the beliefs of that Culture.

It seems obvious to me that a person believes not in a religion they them self's found any reason to have faith in but where taught to by the Culture they grew up in. Indoctrination.

Are there any Christians or other religious types out there that would agree that their faith is nothing more than just programming of the environment they where brought into? And doesn't this massively cheapen or even remove any strong reason for your own faith?

Also I'd be curious to know if anyone with faith has wondered this same thing?

AJ841
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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11/28/2015 9:17:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 4:26:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
I have been wondering for a while now that all around the world people are born into cultures in which in the sense of the majority, tend to take on the beliefs of that Culture.

Yes, and the typical atheist accusations about American Christians is an insult to people who are actually indoctrinated, you should expand your wondering. Believe it or not Theists can think for themselves lol.

It seems obvious to me that a person believes not in a religion they them self's found any reason to have faith in but where taught to by the Culture they grew up in. Indoctrination.

Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think, it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Go create a pole here and see how many atheists were x- "Christian", and yet atheists still claim theism indoctrinates.

Are there any Christians or other religious types out there that would agree that their faith is nothing more than just programming of the environment they where brought into? And doesn't this massively cheapen or even remove any strong reason for your own faith?

This is the type of garbage that atheism is breeding, this is indoctrination in and of itself Aj841, why don't you just hang around and ask and see that people will answer and you will see Theists think, and actually have reasons for their beliefs lol, do you see the irony you are displaying?

Also I'd be curious to know if anyone with faith has wondered this same thing?

Do yourself a favor and study what scriptural faith is, it is a misunderstood element.

AJ841
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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11/28/2015 9:34:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 9:17:47 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 11/28/2015 4:26:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
I have been wondering for a while now that all around the world people are born into cultures in which in the sense of the majority, tend to take on the beliefs of that Culture.

Yes, and the typical atheist accusations about American Christians is an insult to people who are actually indoctrinated, you should expand your wondering. Believe it or not Theists can think for themselves lol.

And, when exactly will we be witnessing that miracle? Theists believe, they rarely,if ever think.

It seems obvious to me that a person believes not in a religion they them self's found any reason to have faith in but where taught to by the Culture they grew up in. Indoctrination.

Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think,

No, theists like yourself exhibit that every time they post here. You actually show us time and again that you're incapable of thinking.

it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Go create a pole here and see how many atheists were x- "Christian", and yet atheists still claim theism indoctrinates.

Poll.

Are there any Christians or other religious types out there that would agree that their faith is nothing more than just programming of the environment they where brought into? And doesn't this massively cheapen or even remove any strong reason for your own faith?

This is the type of garbage that atheism is breeding, this is indoctrination in and of itself Aj841, why don't you just hang around and ask and see that people will answer and you will see Theists think, and actually have reasons for their beliefs lol, do you see the irony you are displaying?

Many others have been here a long time and can easily attest to the lack of thinking skills theists like yourself possess.

Also I'd be curious to know if anyone with faith has wondered this same thing?

Do yourself a favor and study what scriptural faith is, it is a misunderstood element.

It is easy to read the Bible. What is not understood are the irrational claims of theists who cannot think for themselves. You keep showing us that over and over.

AJ841
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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11/28/2015 9:35:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 4:26:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
I have been wondering for a while now that all around the world people are born into cultures in which in the sense of the majority, tend to take on the beliefs of that Culture.

It seems obvious to me that a person believes not in a religion they them self's found any reason to have faith in but where taught to by the Culture they grew up in. Indoctrination.

Are there any Christians or other religious types out there that would agree that their faith is nothing more than just programming of the environment they where brought into? And doesn't this massively cheapen or even remove any strong reason for your own faith?

Also I'd be curious to know if anyone with faith has wondered this same thing?

AJ841

Kind of like in science class?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Aj841
Posts: 3
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11/28/2015 10:20:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think, it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Just to be clear, observing that religious beliefs tend to follow to the children of parents (on a major scale a culture) is not being fed lies by athiests but is a fact, this which is why you do not often find the children of parents taking on different religions ( there is a trend here and that's what I'm questioning)

This is the type of garbage that atheism is breeding, this is indoctrination in and of itself Aj841, why don't you just hang around and ask and see that people will answer and you will see Theists think, and actually have reasons for their beliefs lol, do you see the irony you are displaying?

In reply to this, I was asking that's exactly what I was doing with my original topic. I would have hoped that your response would have been somthing along the subject matter and not just and aggressive/defensive rant.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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11/28/2015 11:44:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 10:20:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think, it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Just to be clear, observing that religious beliefs tend to follow to the children of parents (on a major scale a culture) is not being fed lies by athiests but is a fact, this which is why you do not often find the children of parents taking on different religions ( there is a trend here and that's what I'm questioning)
This is a natural trend. However, I would not jump to the conclusion that that children are being "indoctrinated." Let's first define the word "indoctrinate":
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it? I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim? I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
mc9
Posts: 1,041
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11/29/2015 12:33:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that most would learn it from their parents and eventually do their research and make their choice based on that.
dee-em
Posts: 6,477
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11/29/2015 12:50:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 11:44:45 PM, tstor wrote:
At 11/28/2015 10:20:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think, it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Just to be clear, observing that religious beliefs tend to follow to the children of parents (on a major scale a culture) is not being fed lies by athiests but is a fact, this which is why you do not often find the children of parents taking on different religions ( there is a trend here and that's what I'm questioning)
This is a natural trend. However, I would not jump to the conclusion that that children are being "indoctrinated." Let's first define the word "indoctrinate":
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it? I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

http://www.pewforum.org...

56% of people have exactly the same faith as the one they were raised with. If you include people who change to another denomination but stay Christian, this rises to at least 76% (Protestant to Catholic and vice versa).

How else can this be explained but by the fact that children are indoctrinated into the views of their parents? Religious affiliation is largely a question of geography. As to critical thinking, this does not kick in until the approach of the teenage years and children are indoctrinated well before that age. Very young children lack the cognitive development to engage in true critical thought. They are hard-wired to accept authority figures in their lives because it is an obvious survival trait.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Your last sentence destroys your argument, don't you think? Anyway, an understanding of general trends is not greatly aided by anecdotal evidence.
dee-em
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11/29/2015 12:51:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 12:33:29 AM, mc9 wrote:
I think that most would learn it from their parents and eventually do their research and make their choice based on that.

It's very, very hard to break out of conditioning once that conditioning has taken hold.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/29/2015 2:46:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 12:50:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2015 11:44:45 PM, tstor wrote:
At 11/28/2015 10:20:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:

Just to be clear, observing that religious beliefs tend to follow to the children of parents (on a major scale a culture) is not being fed lies by athiests but is a fact, this which is why you do not often find the children of parents taking on different religions ( there is a trend here and that's what I'm questioning)
This is a natural trend. However, I would not jump to the conclusion that that children are being "indoctrinated." Let's first define the word "indoctrinate":
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it? I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

http://www.pewforum.org...

56% of people have exactly the same faith as the one they were raised with. If you include people who change to another denomination but stay Christian, this rises to at least 76% (Protestant to Catholic and vice versa).

How else can this be explained but by the fact that children are indoctrinated into the views of their parents? Religious affiliation is largely a question of geography. As to critical thinking, this does not kick in until the approach of the teenage years and children are indoctrinated well before that age. Very young children lack the cognitive development to engage in true critical thought. They are hard-wired to accept authority figures in their lives because it is an obvious survival trait.

At 11/29/2015 12:51:56 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2015 12:33:29 AM, mc9 wrote:
I think that most would learn it from their parents and eventually do their research and make their choice based on that.

It's very, very hard to break out of conditioning once that conditioning has taken hold.

The principle of indoctrination is even taught in the bible.
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

All cultures seem to abide by that principle when it comes to teaching their children right from wrong.
When it comes to religious aspects of humanity, obviously different cultures are taught that it is right to worship whatever gods that culture worships and it is wrong to worship other gods from other cultures due to those other gods being idols.

The following are excerpts which show that most adults understand that a persons belief system and attitudes are formed before the child develops an understanding of critical thinking.

https://www.3ho.org....

"The first six years are crucial in the child"s development. Through consistency in instilling discipline, the child learns very early about the natural order of the universe. The child learns, for example, that the cosmos is able to function because there is a balance between cause and effect: for every action, there is a reaction. Again, the best way to teach this is through the parents" example. To follow through on what is said is a must: "Please sit down while you eat" means to sit down while you eat. If the child does not do it, the adult must be willing to act appropriately. From this, the child learns many things, primarily to value the word. Besides this, a sense of security comes from knowing there is order in this world.

When raising children, their negative egos must be confronted and their energy directed toward God. In the first three years parents must direct a child"s will; they must build it in five years. They must teach their child to walk on his own feet in seven years and to have self-respect in eleven years. After eleven years parents are wasting their time. If children are not trained in discipline in these areas, they will be likely to leave us, as we left our parents."

https://breakingspells.wordpress.com...
"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
Electric-Eccentric
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11/29/2015 3:21:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was once very young in age and small in size.

Just as most FEAR what is beyond their confused understanding within this forum

is much the same as I have been treated all my Life.

Even when very young I was wiser then most of those so called adults.

I have always done my own personal thinking when it came to the discovery and uncovering of the full truth that could be known.

I'm a "child prodigy" of sorts in that I was never a child as the concept didn't interest me.

Just part of the human genius that is possible from birth.

BIG EGO?

why not if you can support it.

YES this is a form of bait to catch the dreamers and make them have to THINK much harder then they are comfortable with.

But what I claim is TRUE and I can PROVE it.

anyone want proof that will melt your mind if you can't handle the heat of honest truth?

p.s. I don't mind if you CHOOSE with your own free will choice to try and deny and reject what I put forth and NOT respond or reply,

as that would be the WISE choice for most.

most overly wonderful and then some...
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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11/29/2015 3:37:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 12:50:18 AM, dee-em wrote:

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it? I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

http://www.pewforum.org...

56% of people have exactly the same faith as the one they were raised with. If you include people who change to another denomination but stay Christian, this rises to at least 76% (Protestant to Catholic and vice versa).
That does not imply "indoctrination."

How else can this be explained but by the fact that children are indoctrinated into the views of their parents? Religious affiliation is largely a question of geography. As to critical thinking, this does not kick in until the approach of the teenage years and children are indoctrinated well before that age. Very young children lack the cognitive development to engage in true critical thought. They are hard-wired to accept authority figures in their lives because it is an obvious survival trait.
Well, if you use the word "indoctrinated" (which can be correctly applied), then you open the door to call almost anything "indoctrination." I was taught to not abuse animals, not be disrespectful, not lie, etc. Was I indoctrinated? You could say yes, but I do not think most people have problems with that. The parent is teaching the child what they know/believe to be correct. Religion falls into the same category. A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Your last sentence destroys your argument, don't you think? Anyway, an understanding of general trends is not greatly aided by anecdotal evidence.
Not at all. He has critically considered his religion for many years.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
dee-em
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11/29/2015 4:43:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 3:37:49 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/29/2015 12:50:18 AM, dee-em wrote:

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it? I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

http://www.pewforum.org...

56% of people have exactly the same faith as the one they were raised with. If you include people who change to another denomination but stay Christian, this rises to at least 76% (Protestant to Catholic and vice versa).

That does not imply "indoctrination."

Sure it does, by your own definition: "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically". Since very young children are not thinking critically, it can only be indoctrination.

How else can this be explained but by the fact that children are indoctrinated into the views of their parents? Religious affiliation is largely a question of geography. As to critical thinking, this does not kick in until the approach of the teenage years and children are indoctrinated well before that age. Very young children lack the cognitive development to engage in true critical thought. They are hard-wired to accept authority figures in their lives because it is an obvious survival trait.

Well, if you use the word "indoctrinated" (which can be correctly applied), then you open the door to call almost anything "indoctrination." I was taught to not abuse animals, not be disrespectful, not lie, etc. Was I indoctrinated? You could say yes, but I do not think most people have problems with that.

Yes. We are all products of our environment.

The parent is teaching the child what they know/believe to be correct. Religion falls into the same category.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.

I would also disagree that adult theists know what is correct. By your logic a Muslim adult knows he is correct but you would no doubt think he is deluded. You are implicitly capable of accepting delusion in others but not for yourself. That is hypocrisy. A theist may believe himself to be correct but he cannot know it. Teaching unverified and non-useful beliefs to those incapable of critical thought is indoctrination.

A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

You miss the point. Once you have been conditioned into a belief at a very young age it is extremely difficult to break out of that conditioning, critical thought later or no critical thought. That is exactly why the church wants to get them young. It is why religions have pushed into creating religious schools where they can maintain the constant exposure and indoctrination. The Catholics do it, the Protestants do it and so do the Muslims.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago.

With all due respect, I find these statements difficult to believe.

I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Your household may or may not have been secular, but your community probably was not. I would bet that you had some religious authority figures in your life somewhere.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Your last sentence destroys your argument, don't you think? Anyway, an understanding of general trends is not greatly aided by anecdotal evidence.

Not at all. He has critically considered his religion for many years.

Again, you miss the point. Your critical thinking faculties don't kick in until about 11-12 years of age. Your statement was that that he had studied the Bible "informally most of his life". Enough said.
Skyangel
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11/29/2015 4:54:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 3:21:45 AM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:
I was once very young in age and small in size.

So was everyone else.
Is that obvious indoctrination ? ;-)

Just as most FEAR what is beyond their confused understanding within this forum

is much the same as I have been treated all my Life.

That may be obvious to you but is it indoctrination ?

When people fear things they generally try to avoid what they fear.

It is obvious to me that most forums members seem to avoid you but I doubt it is because they consciously fear you.
Unconscious fear or indoctrination might be the culprit though.
Most seem to convince themselves it is because your posts are too ridiculous to comment on.

Even when very young I was wiser then most of those so called adults.

I have always done my own personal thinking when it came to the discovery and uncovering of the full truth that could be known.

So you indoctrinated yourself to believe yourself?

I'm a "child prodigy" of sorts in that I was never a child as the concept didn't interest me.

Obviously the words "never a child " are referring to the mental state of immaturity, not to the physical state of your body since all have been physical children at one stage of our lives.

Just part of the human genius that is possible from birth.

BIG EGO?

Ego is nothing but a sense of self esteem, self worth, self respect, self confidence.
Few people have high self esteem. Others have a very low self esteem and seem to feel inferior to those who have a high one so they attempt to bring the "proud" down to their level by trying to "cut down the tall poppies" or telling the "high horse riders" to get off their "high horses".

The concept of "cutting down tall poppies" also comes from indoctrination. It seems a pretense of humility is preferred amongst most people as they put themselves down in an attempt to look humble and "fish" for praise, approval, encouragement, etc when they really think they are so much better and "more holy" than those who are proud of themselves, admit it to themselves and have no need of other peoples approval to be who they are.

why not if you can support it.

Sure, why not. Having a high sense of self confidence is an asset as long as that confidence remains realistic.
Child prodigies are FEW and far between.

Most people are born average and many below average on the sliding man made scale when it comes to judging other peoples intelligence and abilities. Most are born gullible and trusting. Some remain gullible and trusting all their lives, especially when it comes to things they have been indoctrinated to fear even when there is no reason to fear them. Few venture out and challenge what they fear to find out there was nothing to fear in the first place.

YES this is a form of bait to catch the dreamers and make them have to THINK much harder then they are comfortable with.

Dreamers don't bother thinking. They are far too busy dreaming their dreams and don't want to be bothered with reality.
Dreamers have been indoctrinated to dream. Most adults encourage children to be dreamers and live in fantasy land believing in mythical characters. The adults like to believe it is all about encouraging creative imagination and protecting children from harsh reality.
Fantasy land is an escape from reality.

But what I claim is TRUE and I can PROVE it.

I know you can but most others on here won't believe you.

anyone want proof that will melt your mind if you can't handle the heat of honest truth?

Most people claim to want to know the truth but when they get it they simply deny it and call it a lie when they do not want to believe it. It can take a very long to accept the truth when you have been brought up to believe a lie, a myth, a false doctrine, an illusion, etc is true and real.

p.s. I don't mind if you CHOOSE with your own free will choice to try and deny and reject what I put forth and NOT respond or reply,

as that would be the WISE choice for most.

most overly wonderful and then some...

Wonderful people do and say or write wonderful things but not all judges judge those things as wonderful. Many observers just wonder if what they observe is true or false.
Many honest and innocent people tend to be verbally crucified by those who believe they are telling lies or merely speaking garbage. The mythical story of Jesus conveys that principle.
Skyangel
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11/29/2015 5:05:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 9:17:47 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Yes, and the typical atheist accusations about American Christians is an insult to people who are actually indoctrinated, you should expand your wondering. Believe it or not Theists can think for themselves lol.

This is the type of garbage that atheism is breeding, this is indoctrination in and of itself Aj841, why don't you just hang around and ask and see that people will answer and you will see Theists think, and actually have reasons for their beliefs lol, do you see the irony you are displaying?

If you can manage to think, please take time to think about this question...
http://www.debate.org...
and when you have an answer, please post it on that thread.
tstor
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11/29/2015 5:45:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 4:43:12 AM, dee-em wrote:

56% of people have exactly the same faith as the one they were raised with. If you include people who change to another denomination but stay Christian, this rises to at least 76% (Protestant to Catholic and vice versa).

That does not imply "indoctrination."

Sure it does, by your own definition: "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically". Since very young children are not thinking critically, it can only be indoctrination.
Nope. My father is a Christian, but I was not raised Christian. It was not until later that I became a Christian. I would be apart of that 76% percent. However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Well, if you use the word "indoctrinated" (which can be correctly applied), then you open the door to call almost anything "indoctrination." I was taught to not abuse animals, not be disrespectful, not lie, etc. Was I indoctrinated? You could say yes, but I do not think most people have problems with that.

Yes. We are all products of our environment.
So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

The parent is teaching the child what they know/believe to be correct. Religion falls into the same category.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.
There are parents that teach kids that it is alright to abuse animals, be disrespectful, and to lie. For example, many people I know are extremely rude to people who are rude to them. Other people I know are nice to people even if they are treated rudely in return. Some kids grow up smashing insects and torturing spiders. Others are taught not to do those things. The point is, not everything is black and white.

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

I would also disagree that adult theists know what is correct. By your logic a Muslim adult knows he is correct but you would no doubt think he is deluded. You are implicitly capable of accepting delusion in others but not for yourself. That is hypocrisy. A theist may believe himself to be correct but he cannot know it. Teaching unverified and non-useful beliefs to those incapable of critical thought is indoctrination.
I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

"Indoctrination" has nothing to do with verification or usefulness. As well, what is verified to me or you is subjective. The same goes for usefulness. I find it useful to know Biblical Greek in my life, but you may not. The Mormon missionaries I speak with will claim that the holy ghost has verified, for them, that the BoM is true. That verification does not apply to me or you.

A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

You miss the point. Once you have been conditioned into a belief at a very young age it is extremely difficult to break out of that conditioning, critical thought later or no critical thought. That is exactly why the church wants to get them young. It is why religions have pushed into creating religious schools where they can maintain the constant exposure and indoctrination. The Catholics do it, the Protestants do it and so do the Muslims.
There have always been religious schools. It is not some kind of groundbreaking idea. It may be hard to critically examine something that has always been held as truth, sure. Many people have done it though. My father was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and left much later in life. He did that because his critical analysis of the Bible and evidence led him away from that belief system.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago.

With all due respect, I find these statements difficult to believe.
Well, I can see why. Let me try and explain how this happened. My father was a former Jehovah's Witness. As I am sure you know, it is very hard to leave the organization. You are leaving a lifestyle behind. Family and friends will spend less/no time with you. Also he was raised in the organization, so that made it even more difficult on him. This happened before I was born. When I was growing up, he was "burnt out" on religion. He did not go to church or anything of that sort.

I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Your household may or may not have been secular, but your community probably was not. I would bet that you had some religious authority figures in your life somewhere.
Since I live in the US, most people are Christian. However, I do not believe that had a huge impact. Christianity was unappealing for me, which is why I did not start my religious studies there. I started with Hinduism and then Islam. After those two were thoroughly researched I quit. A free Watchtower one Saturday got me to research Christianity. Here I am today!

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Your last sentence destroys your argument, don't you think? Anyway, an understanding of general trends is not greatly aided by anecdotal evidence.

Not at all. He has critically considered his religion for many years.

Again, you miss the point. Your critical thinking faculties don't kick in until about 11-12 years of age. Your statement was that that he had studied the Bible "informally most of his life". Enough said.
Yes? Why are you assuming his age?
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/29/2015 6:50:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 5:45:14 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/29/2015 4:43:12 AM, dee-em wrote:

Sure it does, by your own definition: "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically". Since very young children are not thinking critically, it can only be indoctrination.
Nope. My father is a Christian, but I was not raised Christian. It was not until later that I became a Christian. I would be apart of that 76% percent. However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Not raised Christian? Not taught Christian principles? Not dragged to Sunday school ? Not taught about Jesus or God as the creator of the universe? If you were not raised as a Christian child, what were you raised as? Muslim? Buddhist? Atheist? Agnostic? Something else?
How and when did you become Christian? What age were you when you converted from whatever you were raised as, to Christianity and what made you convert?

Well, if you use the word "indoctrinated" (which can be correctly applied), then you open the door to call almost anything "indoctrination." I was taught to not abuse animals, not be disrespectful, not lie, etc. Was I indoctrinated? You could say yes, but I do not think most people have problems with that.

Yes. We are all products of our environment.
So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

Yet you previously wrote "However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Obviously at 17 years of age, you are still a very confused child.

The parent is teaching the child what they know/believe to be correct. Religion falls into the same category.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.
There are parents that teach kids that it is alright to abuse animals, be disrespectful, and to lie. For example, many people I know are extremely rude to people who are rude to them. Other people I know are nice to people even if they are treated rudely in return. Some kids grow up smashing insects and torturing spiders. Others are taught not to do those things. The point is, not everything is black and white.

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

You claim the Christian faith is the truth. What exactly do you mean by that ? The truth about what?
No religion is needed to discern right from wrong. Even atheists manage to figure out right from wrong, true from false.

I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

What happens when that which the parents believe to be truth is not the truth at all ?
I will tell you what happens in case you do not know and can't figure it out...
The parents end up deceiving themselves and also inadvertently deceiving their children due to believing a lie is the truth.

A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

Do you believe you are good at critical thinking?
If so, please think about my question on ......http://www.debate.org...
and please post your answer when you figure it out.

There have always been religious schools. It is not some kind of groundbreaking idea. It may be hard to critically examine something that has always been held as truth, sure. Many people have done it though. My father was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and left much later in life. He did that because his critical analysis of the Bible and evidence led him away from that belief system.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago.

Are you saying you did not become a Christian believer in God till about a year ago ?

With all due respect, I find these statements difficult to believe.
Well, I can see why. Let me try and explain how this happened. My father was a former Jehovah's Witness. As I am sure you know, it is very hard to leave the organization. You are leaving a lifestyle behind. Family and friends will spend less/no time with you. Also he was raised in the organization, so that made it even more difficult on him. This happened before I was born. When I was growing up, he was "burnt out" on religion. He did not go to church or anything of that sort.

I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

Your household may or may not have been secular, but your community probably was not. I would bet that you had some religious authority figures in your life somewhere.
Since I live in the US, most people are Christian. However, I do not believe that had a huge impact. Christianity was unappealing for me, which is why I did not start my religious studies there. I started with Hinduism and then Islam. After those two were thoroughly researched I quit. A free Watchtower one Saturday got me to research Christianity. Here I am today!

How old were you when you started your so called religious studies into Hinduism and Islam?
You joined the JW's after they got you to open your bible one year ago?

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Step brothers? I see. It all makes sense now. Your father married a divorced woman who was not a JW and that is why he left the organization?
He loved her more than he loved his religious institution and their rules ?
http://truthrundown.net...

At 17 years of age you have barely begun your journey of critical thinking.
EtrnlVw
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11/29/2015 10:46:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 5:05:27 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/28/2015 9:17:47 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Yes, and the typical atheist accusations about American Christians is an insult to people who are actually indoctrinated, you should expand your wondering. Believe it or not Theists can think for themselves lol.




This is the type of garbage that atheism is breeding, this is indoctrination in and of itself Aj841, why don't you just hang around and ask and see that people will answer and you will see Theists think, and actually have reasons for their beliefs lol, do you see the irony you are displaying?


If you can manage to think, please take time to think about this question...
http://www.debate.org...
and when you have an answer, please post it on that thread.

Thinking critically and rationally is out of your domain so don't tell me what to think about grandma, I've thought about more things in one day than all your years combined all you do is ramble about nothing because you are bored and your husbands probably sick of hearing it so you vent here lol. All your posts are the same nonsense and it goes something like this.....

blah blah blah supernatural characters blah blah.
blah blah blah blah blaaah fantasies blah blah, myths blah blah other people blah blah blah bible verses blah blah.......
blah blah other people blah blah blah blah supernatural invisible characters blah blah other people blah blah blah and so on and so on. Other people blah blah blah fairies Santa blah blah blah blah a bunch more bible passages blah blah blahhhh.

And WHY are you soliciting in another members thread?? what a joke....
dee-em
Posts: 6,477
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11/29/2015 1:05:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 5:45:14 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/29/2015 4:43:12 AM, dee-em wrote:

Sure it does, by your own definition: "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically". Since very young children are not thinking critically, it can only be indoctrination.

Nope. My father is a Christian, but I was not raised Christian. It was not until later that I became a Christian. I would be apart of that 76% percent. However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Do you really, really think that your situation (if true in all respects, and I have my doubts) is typical? Are you capable of seeing the bigger picture which is not all about you?

Yes. We are all products of our environment.

So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

In many respects, yes. How many sons and daughters follow the same sporting team as their parents? How about their politics when they grow up? Their eating habits? In many respects we are mirrors to our parents.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.

There are parents that teach kids that it is alright to abuse animals, be disrespectful, and to lie.

Really? You might find some very small percentage of sociopaths but is that really the point here? Any society in which a substantial fraction of the population behaved this way would fall apart rather quickly.

For example, many people I know are extremely rude to people who are rude to them. Other people I know are nice to people even if they are treated rudely in return. Some kids grow up smashing insects and torturing spiders. Others are taught not to do those things. The point is, not everything is black and white.

There are always isolated exceptions to every rule. Pointing them out is not really advancing this discussion, don't you think?

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

The problem is that the meme of religion is perpetuated, not by critical thought, but by faith. You would raise your child in the Christian faith, not because it is the truth, but because that is how you yourself was raised. (Yes, I know you are an exception. I am speaking generally). Each generation is indoctrinated in turn by their parents, going all the way back to the start of the religion. Despite your implicit claim that you and others examine your beliefs with critical thought, it is quite clear that only a tiny percentage of theists actually arrive at their position by reasoning their way to it.

I would also disagree that adult theists know what is correct. By your logic a Muslim adult knows he is correct but you would no doubt think he is deluded. You are implicitly capable of accepting delusion in others but not for yourself. That is hypocrisy. A theist may believe himself to be correct but he cannot know it. Teaching unverified and non-useful beliefs to those incapable of critical thought is indoctrination.

I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

But clearly Muslims and Christians cannot both be teaching the truth. Therefore calling it 'truth' is disingenuous. One or both groups are teaching falsehoods. How could anyone be comfortable with children being taught in this manner even if it is done with the best of intentions? If, as you say, people like you can reason their way to faith after childhood, then why indoctrinate them in childhood? Religion would seem to be suffering from an insecurity that critical thinking can maintain the supply of supplicants.

"Indoctrination" has nothing to do with verification or usefulness. As well, what is verified to me or you is subjective. The same goes for usefulness. I find it useful to know Biblical Greek in my life, but you may not. The Mormon missionaries I speak with will claim that the holy ghost has verified, for them, that the BoM is true. That verification does not apply to me or you.

You seem to be confirming my point. :-)

You miss the point. Once you have been conditioned into a belief at a very young age it is extremely difficult to break out of that conditioning, critical thought later or no critical thought. That is exactly why the church wants to get them young. It is why religions have pushed into creating religious schools where they can maintain the constant exposure and indoctrination. The Catholics do it, the Protestants do it and so do the Muslims.

There have always been religious schools. It is not some kind of groundbreaking idea.

Huh? How is how long they have been around relevant?

It may be hard to critically examine something that has always been held as truth, sure. Many people have done it though. My father was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and left much later in life. He did that because his critical analysis of the Bible and evidence led him away from that belief system.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago.

With all due respect, I find these statements difficult to believe.

Well, I can see why. Let me try and explain how this happened. My father was a former Jehovah's Witness. As I am sure you know, it is very hard to leave the organization. You are leaving a lifestyle behind. Family and friends will spend less/no time with you. Also he was raised in the organization, so that made it even more difficult on him. This happened before I was born. When I was growing up, he was "burnt out" on religion. He did not go to church or anything of that sort.

Your household may or may not have been secular, but your community probably was not. I would bet that you had some religious authority figures in your life somewhere.

Since I live in the US, most people are Christian. However, I do not believe that had a huge impact. Christianity was unappealing for me, which is why I did not start my religious studies there. I started with Hinduism and then Islam. After those two were thoroughly researched I quit. A free Watchtower one Saturday got me to research Christianity. Here I am today!

I'm still highly dubious that you had zero exposure to Christianity during childhood.

Again, you miss the point. Your critical thinking faculties don't kick in until about 11-12 years of age. Your statement was that that he had studied the Bible "informally most of his life". Enough said.

Yes? Why are you assuming his age?

How am I assuming his age? Explain the circumstances rather than being deliberately vague. Were your step-brothers raised as JW's?
bulproof
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11/29/2015 1:07:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 10:46:40 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
I've thought about more things in one day than all your years combined all you do is ramble about nothing because you are bored and your husbands probably sick of hearing it
And here we have the absolute adherence (not) of the christ they claim to follow. Ignorance is not a valid reason for being as stupid as you present and it is even less reason to project your inadequacies upon another.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tstor
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11/29/2015 2:58:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 6:50:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Nope. My father is a Christian, but I was not raised Christian. It was not until later that I became a Christian. I would be apart of that 76% percent. However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Not raised Christian? Not taught Christian principles? Not dragged to Sunday school ? Not taught about Jesus or God as the creator of the universe? If you were not raised as a Christian child, what were you raised as? Muslim? Buddhist? Atheist? Agnostic? Something else?
Nothing. I was not even aware of the concept of "god" growing up.

How and when did you become Christian? What age were you when you converted from whatever you were raised as, to Christianity and what made you convert?
I converted just this year after my studies. My studies started with Hinduism through the Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, and other Vedic texts. Specifically I used the Eknath Easwaran translations and commentaries of the first two texts I listed. I guess that started at around age fifteen. It was not until after reading those works that I began playing with the idea of a higher power. The reason I began to consider the idea of a higher power was because I found it astonishing that so many people, for almost all of human history, had come to the conclusion of a higher power. While that was not proof for me, it did get me interested.

After Hinduism I went on to study Islam. At some point around age sixteen I confirmed in myself that there was a higher power, I just did not know how to define it. Islam did not really give me the answers I wanted. I studied through the Qur'an, Sahih Al-Bukhari, and Nahjul Balagha. I gave up after I studied Islam. It seemed like all holy texts and religions had their flaws. That may seem premature as I only read two, but I had lightly studied other faiths including Norse, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.

It was not until one Saturday that I got a Watchtower that I began to study Christianity. While I immediately disagreed with some things taught by the Watchtower, I did not have to adhere to them. I just did independent studying until I found the Bible to be true. It passed my examination. This happened just this year. I will go in greater depth on your post that you linked me to later.

Well, if you use the word "indoctrinated" (which can be correctly applied), then you open the door to call almost anything "indoctrination." I was taught to not abuse animals, not be disrespectful, not lie, etc. Was I indoctrinated? You could say yes, but I do not think most people have problems with that.

Yes. We are all products of our environment.
So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

Yet you previously wrote "However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Obviously at 17 years of age, you are still a very confused child.
I was writing that in regards to my faith.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.
There are parents that teach kids that it is alright to abuse animals, be disrespectful, and to lie. For example, many people I know are extremely rude to people who are rude to them. Other people I know are nice to people even if they are treated rudely in return. Some kids grow up smashing insects and torturing spiders. Others are taught not to do those things. The point is, not everything is black and white.

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

You claim the Christian faith is the truth. What exactly do you mean by that ? The truth about what?
I believe it to be true. With that said, it is the truth.

No religion is needed to discern right from wrong. Even atheists manage to figure out right from wrong, true from false.
I did not say that, did I?

I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

What happens when that which the parents believe to be truth is not the truth at all ?
I will tell you what happens in case you do not know and can't figure it out...
The parents end up deceiving themselves and also inadvertently deceiving their children due to believing a lie is the truth.
Yes, but was it for a good reason? If you believed that you had the "key" to salvation and never ending life, then you better share it with your child. Even if the parent leaves that faith later in life, they were acting correctly in teaching their child their faith.

A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

Do you believe you are good at critical thinking?
If so, please think about my question on ......http://www.debate.org...
and please post your answer when you figure it out.
I will work on a response to that.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian. I never opened a Bible until about a year ago.

Are you saying you did not become a Christian believer in God till about a year ago ?
Yes.

Since I live in the US, most people are Christian. However, I do not believe that had a huge impact. Christianity was unappealing for me, which is why I did not start my religious studies there. I started with Hinduism and then Islam. After those two were thoroughly researched I quit. A free Watchtower one Saturday got me to research Christianity. Here I am today!

How old were you when you started your so called religious studies into Hinduism and Islam?
About fifteen.

You joined the JW's after they got you to open your bible one year ago?
I am not a JW.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way. I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

Step brothers? I see. It all makes sense now. Your father married a divorced woman who was not a JW and that is why he left the organization?
He loved her more than he loved his religious institution and their rules ?
http://truthrundown.net...
No. He left before I was born.

At 17 years of age you have barely begun your journey of critical thinking.
Thanks, I will keep that in mind.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
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11/29/2015 2:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 1:05:38 PM, dee-em wrote:

Nope. My father is a Christian, but I was not raised Christian. It was not until later that I became a Christian. I would be apart of that 76% percent. However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Do you really, really think that your situation (if true in all respects, and I have my doubts) is typical? Are you capable of seeing the bigger picture which is not all about you?
Do you think, as a Christian, I would lie to you? I do not know how common or uncommon my situation is. Do you?

Yes. We are all products of our environment.

So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

In many respects, yes. How many sons and daughters follow the same sporting team as their parents? How about their politics when they grow up? Their eating habits? In many respects we are mirrors to our parents.
If that is the case, then I agree with you. If you are applying the term "indoctrinated" to those scenarios, then I agree that religion taught to kids by their parents is also indoctrination.

No, it doesn't. The values of respecting life, other people, property etc and being truthful are common to all human societies because they aid in social cohesion and produce more successful living environments. The specifics of each religion are not common to all human societies and belief in a deity has no particular value in producing more succesful societies, as the largely atheist Scandinavian countries attest to.

There are parents that teach kids that it is alright to abuse animals, be disrespectful, and to lie.

Really? You might find some very small percentage of sociopaths but is that really the point here? Any society in which a substantial fraction of the population behaved this way would fall apart rather quickly.
There are many people who abuse animals. I am thinking dog fights or something. I have met many, many, rude and disrespectful people. You do not have to go far to find them either. There are some right here on this forum. Some people think it is alright to tell a "small" or "white" lie. Others do not.

For example, many people I know are extremely rude to people who are rude to them. Other people I know are nice to people even if they are treated rudely in return. Some kids grow up smashing insects and torturing spiders. Others are taught not to do those things. The point is, not everything is black and white.

There are always isolated exceptions to every rule. Pointing them out is not really advancing this discussion, don't you think?
Sure, there are always exceptions. However, I think that small exceptions are not always the case. Were you taught to fight back if someone tries to harm you? Some people are not. Were you taught to lie if it is better for the person you are lying to? Some people are not.

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

The problem is that the meme of religion is perpetuated, not by critical thought, but by faith. You would raise your child in the Christian faith, not because it is the truth, but because that is how you yourself was raised. (Yes, I know you are an exception. I am speaking generally). Each generation is indoctrinated in turn by their parents, going all the way back to the start of the religion. Despite your implicit claim that you and others examine your beliefs with critical thought, it is quite clear that only a tiny percentage of theists actually arrive at their position by reasoning their way to it.
How do you know? How is it "quite clear"? You are assuming that person x is a Muslim only because their parent(s) taught them that belief system. In reality, person x could have had stumbling blocks, which required critical thought. It is not enough to just assume only one scenario is the majority.

Also, why do you say that faith cannot come from critical thought?

I would also disagree that adult theists know what is correct. By your logic a Muslim adult knows he is correct but you would no doubt think he is deluded. You are implicitly capable of accepting delusion in others but not for yourself. That is hypocrisy. A theist may believe himself to be correct but he cannot know it. Teaching unverified and non-useful beliefs to those incapable of critical thought is indoctrination.

I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

But clearly Muslims and Christians cannot both be teaching the truth. Therefore calling it 'truth' is disingenuous. One or both groups are teaching falsehoods. How could anyone be comfortable with children being taught in this manner even if it is done with the best of intentions? If, as you say, people like you can reason their way to faith after childhood, then why indoctrinate them in childhood? Religion would seem to be suffering from an insecurity that critical thinking can maintain the supply of supplicants.
It is just a common phrase used by theists. Take it with a grain of salt. Muslims and Christians both think that they are teaching the truth. If they genuinely believe they have the truth, then they should tell their offspring about it.

My faith was not a cake walk, so I would rather save my child the time. I will most definitely make them aware of other belief systems, but I will teach only one as true.

"Indoctrination" has nothing to do with verification or usefulness. As well, what is verified to me or you is subjective. The same goes for usefulness. I find it useful to know Biblical Greek in my life, but you may not. The Mormon missionaries I speak with will claim that the holy ghost has verified, for them, that the BoM is true. That verification does not apply to me or you.

You seem to be confirming my point. :-)
And which point it that? I was addressing the claim that "teaching unverified and non-useful beliefs to those incapable of critical thought is indoctrination."

You miss the point. Once you have been conditioned into a belief at a very young age it is extremely difficult to break out of that conditioning, critical thought later or no critical thought. That is exactly why the church wants to get them young. It is why religions have pushed into creating religious schools where they can maintain the constant exposure and indoctrination. The Catholics do it, the Protestants do it and so do the Muslims.

There have always been religious schools. It is not some kind of groundbreaking idea.

Huh? How is how long they have been around relevant?
You said "that is exactly why the church wants to get them young." Also, you said that it is "why religions have pushed into creating religious schools where they can maintain the constant exposure and indoctrination."

I may have read into the text, but I got the impression that you thought religious schools were a recent invention. Sorry for the confusion.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
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11/29/2015 2:58:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 1:05:38 PM, dee-em wrote:

Since I live in the US, most people are Christian. However, I do not believe that had a huge impact. Christianity was unappealing for me, which is why I did not start my religious studies there. I started with Hinduism and then Islam. After those two were thoroughly researched I quit. A free Watchtower one Saturday got me to research Christianity. Here I am today!

I'm still highly dubious that you had zero exposure to Christianity during childhood.
It depends on what kind of exposure. Did I celebrate Christmas? Sure. Did I go to events at a church, such as Easter egg hunts? Sure. However, my general awareness of what was going on prevented me from taking anything in. I celebrated Christmas because I got new toys. I went to an Easter egg hunt because I got candy. I did not know what a "god" would be or what the word "Jesus" even meant.

Again, you miss the point. Your critical thinking faculties don't kick in until about 11-12 years of age. Your statement was that that he had studied the Bible "informally most of his life". Enough said.

Yes? Why are you assuming his age?

How am I assuming his age? Explain the circumstances rather than being deliberately vague. Were your step-brothers raised as JW's?
You said that "critical thinking faculties don't kick in until about 11-12 years of age." You then used "most of his life" against me. So you must think he is at most 20-21?

No, my father left before I was born. My step brother was raised a Methodist, but he is now Baptist.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2015 5:09:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 11:44:45 PM, tstor wrote:
At 11/28/2015 10:20:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
Yes of course, atheistic dogma has been feeding you lies that theists don't think, it applies is some cases (as well as atheists obviously) but way over emphasized in normal situations and as I said, is an insult to people who live in areas where this is a serious issue.

Just to be clear, observing that religious beliefs tend to follow to the children of parents (on a major scale a culture) is not being fed lies by athiests but is a fact, this which is why you do not often find the children of parents taking on different religions ( there is a trend here and that's what I'm questioning)
This is a natural trend. However, I would not jump to the conclusion that that children are being "indoctrinated." Let's first define the word "indoctrinate":
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it?

Exactly. Anything that requires faith will often not pass the critical thinking process.

I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Yes, the critical thinking process. Use it on any faith based concept and you'll find it works.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian.

But, your father was a Christian, hence he had Christian beliefs, the very same beliefs that fail under critical thinking.

I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

No, you came to believe in Christianity, which has nothing to do with truth, because as you admit, it is a "belief system", which fails the critical thinking process.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way.

Then, they are all indoctrinated into Christianity, just like you.

I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs

Obviously, if they embrace Christianity, they have not thought critically about it.

, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

LOL. That is not critical thinking, that is indoctrination, which is what the Bob Jones University is all about. It's actually deceitful to call such an institute a university when it's little more than a glorified church.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
tstor
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11/29/2015 7:17:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 5:09:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it?

Exactly. Anything that requires faith will often not pass the critical thinking process.
I thoroughly disagree. It was the critical thinking that got me to my faith.

I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Yes, the critical thinking process. Use it on any faith based concept and you'll find it works.
Well, the Bible defines faith as "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration [or convincing evidence] of realities that are not seen." (Heb. 11:1)

Someone can come to faith through critical thought.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian.

But, your father was a Christian, hence he had Christian beliefs, the very same beliefs that fail under critical thinking.
I guess the vast majority of the world cannot critically think, right? Great explorers, scholars, inventors, etc of the past and present could not/cannot critically think?

I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

No, you came to believe in Christianity, which has nothing to do with truth, because as you admit, it is a "belief system", which fails the critical thinking process.
It has dawned on me that perhaps you cannot critically think about what you are saying because you lack the definition of "critical thinking"!

critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment

So yes, plenty of people who have faith in a god or gods can critically think.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way.

Then, they are all indoctrinated into Christianity, just like you.
Depends on how you want to use the word. Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they taught you not to abuse animals? Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they told you not to lie or steal? By your standards, yes. If you want to use the term so loosely, then I agree. However, you cannot use one measuring stick on one item and ignore the rest.

I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs

Obviously, if they embrace Christianity, they have not thought critically about it.
You sound more and more like a theist everyday! A Muslim would say the same thing. So would a Hindu. What is your holy text?

, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

LOL. That is not critical thinking, that is indoctrination, which is what the Bob Jones University is all about. It's actually deceitful to call such an institute a university when it's little more than a glorified church.
And how do you define a "university"? I guess everyone else is wrong and you are right on this, so at least provide a definition.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2015 8:09:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:17:42 PM, tstor wrote:
At 11/29/2015 5:09:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So you are saying that the vast majority of kids who accept their parents faith are not thinking critically about it?

Exactly. Anything that requires faith will often not pass the critical thinking process.
I thoroughly disagree. It was the critical thinking that got me to my faith.

Sorry, but based on your posts here, you have no concept of critical thinking skills.

I do not necessarily disagree, but do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Yes, the critical thinking process. Use it on any faith based concept and you'll find it works.
Well, the Bible defines faith as "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration [or convincing evidence] of realities that are not seen." (Heb. 11:1)

So what? The Bible is not a dictionary, contains volumes of errors and that definition is entirely wrong.

Someone can come to faith through critical thought.

No, they can't, that is the antithesis of critical thought.

I was raised in a secular home despite my father being a Christian.

But, your father was a Christian, hence he had Christian beliefs, the very same beliefs that fail under critical thinking.
I guess the vast majority of the world cannot critically think, right?

Absolutely correct.

Great explorers, scholars, inventors, etc of the past and present could not/cannot critically think?

Strawman.

I never opened a Bible until about a year ago. I came to the truth of Christianity through my own research and setting a theology/belief system I was comfortable with.

No, you came to believe in Christianity, which has nothing to do with truth, because as you admit, it is a "belief system", which fails the critical thinking process.
It has dawned on me that perhaps you cannot critically think about what you are saying because you lack the definition of "critical thinking"!

LOL.

critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment

So yes, plenty of people who have faith in a god or gods can critically think.

Sorry, but believers do NOT analyze their beliefs objectively, not even remotely.

Now, all of my step brothers are Christians and were raised that way.

Then, they are all indoctrinated into Christianity, just like you.
Depends on how you want to use the word.

No, it doesn't depend on how I use the word.

Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they taught you not to abuse animals? Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they told you not to lie or steal? By your standards, yes.

Where do you come up with these absurd conclusions? Oh yes, the lack of critical thinking skills.

If you want to use the term so loosely, then I agree. However, you cannot use one measuring stick on one item and ignore the rest.

That is not being done at all, you are making erroneous conclusions because you're incapable of thinking critically.

I do not know if all of them have critically thought about their beliefs

Obviously, if they embrace Christianity, they have not thought critically about it.
You sound more and more like a theist everyday! A Muslim would say the same thing. So would a Hindu. What is your holy text?

That has to be one of your silliest conclusions. Try thinking for a change.

, but I know at least one of them has. He has studied the Bible for several years in formal education at Bob Jones University. Informally, he has studied for most of his life.

LOL. That is not critical thinking, that is indoctrination, which is what the Bob Jones University is all about. It's actually deceitful to call such an institute a university when it's little more than a glorified church.
And how do you define a "university"? I guess everyone else is wrong and you are right on this, so at least provide a definition.

Universities are institutions of higher learning, not places of indoctrination of myths and superstitions.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
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11/29/2015 8:40:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 4:26:58 PM, Aj841 wrote:
I have been wondering for a while now that all around the world people are born into cultures in which in the sense of the majority, tend to take on the beliefs of that Culture.

It seems obvious to me that a person believes not in a religion they them self's found any reason to have faith in but where taught to by the Culture they grew up in. Indoctrination.

Are there any Christians or other religious types out there that would agree that their faith is nothing more than just programming of the environment they where brought into? And doesn't this massively cheapen or even remove any strong reason for your own faith?

Also I'd be curious to know if anyone with faith has wondered this same thing?

AJ841

It is a much ignored fact that everyone on this planet is indoctrinated, or brainwashed, in one way of another.

Of course most people prefer to call it education, but part of the job of educators is to teach you how to think and which ways it is acceptable to think in.

Brainwashing is fine as long as the "water" is the clean waters of truth, but if you wash your clothes in dirty water they will never become truly clean.

Most people accept whatever sort of brainwashing they are given in their country, few dare question it.
tstor
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11/29/2015 9:04:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 8:09:24 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Exactly. Anything that requires faith will often not pass the critical thinking process.
I thoroughly disagree. It was the critical thinking that got me to my faith.

Sorry, but based on your posts here, you have no concept of critical thinking skills.
That is a compliment when it comes from you.

Yes, the critical thinking process. Use it on any faith based concept and you'll find it works.
Well, the Bible defines faith as "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration [or convincing evidence] of realities that are not seen." (Heb. 11:1)

So what? The Bible is not a dictionary, contains volumes of errors and that definition is entirely wrong.

Someone can come to faith through critical thought.

No, they can't, that is the antithesis of critical thought.
You could perhaps argue that for "blind" faith, but not faith. For example, I will know if I get a full scholarship to a university in eleven days. I have some faith that I will get it, as I put in hard work. That is not blind faith, nor is it against critical thought.

But, your father was a Christian, hence he had Christian beliefs, the very same beliefs that fail under critical thinking.
I guess the vast majority of the world cannot critically think, right?

Absolutely correct.
Since you are arguing that everyone who has faith is not critically thinking, would that mean that anyone who does not have faith is critically thinking?

Great explorers, scholars, inventors, etc of the past and present could not/cannot critically think?

Strawman.
Not at all. In response to my statement "someone can come to faith through critical thought," you said "no, they can't, that is the antithesis of critical thought."

Let me clarify your position even more, you said "if they embrace Christianity, they have not thought critically about it." So you are saying that great explorers, scholars, inventors, etc that held to a faith are not capable of critical thought? Or at the very least they did not critically think about their belief system? You are arguing that people like C. S. Lewis, Hugh Ross, James Strong, etc did not critically examine their faith? Heck, I will throw in Charles Taze Russell. Some of these men were atheists prior to coming to Christianity. Some of them were always Christian, but had stumbling blocks. Some of them were simply people who dedicated their entire life to theological work. You think they just went/are going through the motions mentally?

No, you came to believe in Christianity, which has nothing to do with truth, because as you admit, it is a "belief system", which fails the critical thinking process.
It has dawned on me that perhaps you cannot critically think about what you are saying because you lack the definition of "critical thinking"!

LOL.

critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment

So yes, plenty of people who have faith in a god or gods can critically think.

Sorry, but believers do NOT analyze their beliefs objectively, not even remotely.
So you are saying that on behalf of every single theist on the planet? Bold claim and I hope you have evidence to support it.

Then, they are all indoctrinated into Christianity, just like you.
Depends on how you want to use the word.

No, it doesn't depend on how I use the word.
Yeah, it does. Do not be so foolish as to ignore the connotations.

Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they taught you not to abuse animals? Were you indoctrinated by your parents when they told you not to lie or steal? By your standards, yes.

Where do you come up with these absurd conclusions? Oh yes, the lack of critical thinking skills.
Well, it is quite simple. You are willing to call something you dislike as "indoctrination," including all of the connotations, but not something you approve of. Would it be indoctrination if a parent teaches their child that all religions are wrong and there is no god? Would it be indoctrination if the parent teaches their child anything? According to your standards, yes. The child cannot critically consider most all subjects. It does not matter if it is religion, animal abuse, lying, etc.

If you want to use the term so loosely, then I agree. However, you cannot use one measuring stick on one item and ignore the rest.

That is not being done at all, you are making erroneous conclusions because you're incapable of thinking critically.
No, I making conclusions based on the standards you have set. You cannot call one thing "indoctrination" simply because you disagree with it. Well, you can, but do not expect anyone to have high respect for your opinion. Note the word "opinion."

Obviously, if they embrace Christianity, they have not thought critically about it.
You sound more and more like a theist everyday! A Muslim would say the same thing. So would a Hindu. What is your holy text?

That has to be one of your silliest conclusions. Try thinking for a change.
Never heard of that holy book, got a link to it?

LOL. That is not critical thinking, that is indoctrination, which is what the Bob Jones University is all about. It's actually deceitful to call such an institute a university when it's little more than a glorified church.
And how do you define a "university"? I guess everyone else is wrong and you are right on this, so at least provide a definition.

Universities are institutions of higher learning, not places of indoctrination of myths and superstitions.
So Bob Jones is a university. Glad we agree.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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11/29/2015 9:08:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 10:46:40 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Thinking critically and rationally is out of your domain so don't tell me what to think about grandma, I've thought about more things in one day than all your years combined all you do is ramble about nothing because you are bored and your husbands probably sick of hearing it so you vent here lol. All your posts are the same nonsense and it goes something like this.....

blah blah blah supernatural characters blah blah.
blah blah blah blah blaaah fantasies blah blah, myths blah blah other people blah blah blah bible verses blah blah.......
blah blah other people blah blah blah blah supernatural invisible characters blah blah other people blah blah blah and so on and so on. Other people blah blah blah fairies Santa blah blah blah blah a bunch more bible passages blah blah blahhhh.

And WHY are you soliciting in another members thread?? what a joke....

The above response is a typical example of chronic immaturity.
Skyangel
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11/29/2015 9:49:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 2:58:27 PM, tstor wrote:
At 11/29/2015 6:50:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:

How and when did you become Christian? What age were you when you converted from whatever you were raised as, to Christianity and what made you convert?
I converted just this year after my studies. My studies started with Hinduism through the Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, and other Vedic texts. Specifically I used the Eknath Easwaran translations and commentaries of the first two texts I listed. I guess that started at around age fifteen. It was not until after reading those works that I began playing with the idea of a higher power. The reason I began to consider the idea of a higher power was because I found it astonishing that so many people, for almost all of human history, had come to the conclusion of a higher power. While that was not proof for me, it did get me interested.

After Hinduism I went on to study Islam. At some point around age sixteen I confirmed in myself that there was a higher power, I just did not know how to define it. Islam did not really give me the answers I wanted. I studied through the Qur'an, Sahih Al-Bukhari, and Nahjul Balagha. I gave up after I studied Islam. It seemed like all holy texts and religions had their flaws. That may seem premature as I only read two, but I had lightly studied other faiths including Norse, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.

It was not until one Saturday that I got a Watchtower that I began to study Christianity. While I immediately disagreed with some things taught by the Watchtower, I did not have to adhere to them. I just did independent studying until I found the Bible to be true. It passed my examination. This happened just this year. I will go in greater depth on your post that you linked me to later.

I was also a gullible teenager once and converted to Christianity at 15 years of age. I remained in it for many years till I "saw the light" and left due to waking up to the false doctrines.

Yes. We are all products of our environment.
So you are willing to say that we are all indoctrinated? I do not inherently disagree, but I wanted to confirm your position.

Yet you previously wrote "However, I would not fit the definition of someone who was "indoctrinated."

Obviously at 17 years of age, you are still a very confused child.
I was writing that in regards to my faith.

Does it matter what it is in regards to?
All people are indoctrinated in some way even if they are not brought up in any specific religion. Even atheists and agnostics indoctrinate their children when it comes to morals, standards and principles of living.
Man made rules exist and I presume most children are taught to obey the rules, even if it's only the rules their own parents make, or else there are consequences.

Similarly, religion is not black and white. In a hypothetical world, let's pretend that I am a father. I would raise my child in the Christian faith because I have come the conclusion that it is the truth. As a parent, it should be my duty to help my child discern right from wrong and what is true from false. That is because, as you stated, young children cannot critically think. The critical thought has to be done by the parents to some degree.

You claim the Christian faith is the truth. What exactly do you mean by that ? The truth about what?
I believe it to be true. With that said, it is the truth.

It is true that many faiths and doctrines exist in this world. It seems that all members of all faiths believe their particular faith and doctrines to be true while at the same time believing other doctrines in other religions are not true.
What do you believe about other faiths? Are they all true or are some false?

The bible begins with a story about God, a man and a woman in a garden with a talking serpent.
Do you believe the story is true or is it a myth?

I would encourage a Muslim to raise his child in the Islamic faith. I would be concerned if he did not. A parent should teach their child what they believe to be the truth.

What happens when that which the parents believe to be truth is not the truth at all ?
I will tell you what happens in case you do not know and can't figure it out...
The parents end up deceiving themselves and also inadvertently deceiving their children due to believing a lie is the truth.
Yes, but was it for a good reason? If you believed that you had the "key" to salvation and never ending life, then you better share it with your child. Even if the parent leaves that faith later in life, they were acting correctly in teaching their child their faith.

If the parent leaves the faith later in life they ought to have the decency to explain to their children why they left.
If it's because they realized they made a mistake by following that faith in the first place, they ought to be responsible enough to explain the mistake to their children so the children do not make the same mistake.

A never ending life is impossible in a physical sense. We all believe we will die one day because that is the evidence we observe all around us.
Any doctrines or theories about being raised from the dead are ridiculous when it comes to physical death but not so ridiculous when it comes to what is termed as "spiritual death"
Spiritual death is the state of unenlightenment where people are mentally still "in the dark" lacking revelation of truth.
Once they understand the truth, they are raised from the state of "sleep" or "death" into a mentally or spiritually awakened state which is the only way anyone can "rise from the dead".

A person can critically think about their beliefs at a later age.

Do you believe you are good at critical thinking?
If so, please think about my question on ......http://www.debate.org...
and please post your answer when you figure it out.
I will work on a response to that.


At 17 years of age you have barely begun your journey of critical thinking.
Thanks, I will keep that in mind.

Keep in touch with all the ex Christians who left Christianity due to thinking critically about the doctrines they were being taught. You can learn a lot from them and their experiences.