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"Hitler Was A Christian" Challenge

RoderickSpode
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11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).
Jovian
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11/29/2015 8:26:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

This was indeed strange. I've always understood it as Hitler that was baptized and confirmed into the Catholic church, but later on became uninterested in it. Also, he persecuted the Catholic church https://en.wikipedia.org... . He also said that he wished Europe to had embrace Islam in the Arab invasion of early Middle Ages and prior to that, because he thought it was a religion of strength whereas he thought Christianity was feeble. https://en.wikipedia.org...

I googled your citation although, and the sources I find to that one were:

Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19"20, Oxford University Press, 1942

I can't be bothered to find that book and verify it. Even though Hitler called himself Christian, he did not make politics out of it. Exactly like Saddam Hussein. He was Muslim to his faith from what I've heard, but didn't make politics out of it.

Something else one has to take into account is that if a dictator has a population of 90% believing Christians, he couldn't just as well say that the religion is codswallop, since he would be jeopardizing his peoples' faith in him. Take Gustav I of Sweden for example, converting Sweden from catholicism to protestantism in the 1500s. Historians today say that despite having been baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, he was religiously uninterested later in life. Despite this, he did this conversion (which was mainly about money) and he also claimed openly to be a Christian and also having a Christian mottos.

I also know that many other Nazi leaders spoke positively about Norse mythology, probably because they thought it was indeed connected to the Aryan roots.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

Haven't read much about the founding fathers, more than some rumors I've heard saying they were deists. Maybe it's the same here, they couldn't be openly non-Christian, since they would jeopardize peoples' faith in them.
MadCornishBiker
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11/29/2015 8:35:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

There are many millions of people who claim to be Christian, but who in reality fall a long way short of the mark, largely because they are not taught how to be, or even what being Christian truly means.

"Christian" is so very much more than just a label.
GrittyWorm
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11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "
SNP1
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11/30/2015 3:34:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I know most people won't have access, but this is very important for showing just how strong the case is for Hitler being a Christian.
http://www.jstor.org...
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
SNP1
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11/30/2015 4:10:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 3:34:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I know most people won't have access, but this is very important for showing just how strong the case is for Hitler being a Christian.
http://www.jstor.org...

A more accurate way of describing this article (in short amount of words), it shows that Hitler was NOT anti-religious, he was NOT anti-Jesus, he WAS anti-Catholic, but he still seems to be a Christian.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
MadCornishBiker
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12/1/2015 11:16:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 4:10:06 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 11/30/2015 3:34:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I know most people won't have access, but this is very important for showing just how strong the case is for Hitler being a Christian.
http://www.jstor.org...

A more accurate way of describing this article (in short amount of words), it shows that Hitler was NOT anti-religious, he was NOT anti-Jesus, he WAS anti-Catholic, but he still seems to be a Christian.

He had the full support of the Catholic Church, and was often photographed on the balcony flanked by members of their priesthood.

He may well have called himself Christian, but he most certainly was not, since it is your actions which determine that, not just wearing it like a label. He neither acted nor spoke in anything resembling a Christian manner. Therefore he was not Christian in reality.

It is that simple.
MadCornishBiker
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12/1/2015 11:17:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 3:34:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I know most people won't have access, but this is very important for showing just how strong the case is for Hitler being a Christian.
http://www.jstor.org...

There is no valid argument for his being Christian, and many valid arguments against, whatever he chose to call himself..
Fly
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12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Chaosism
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12/1/2015 3:25:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

This seems to often lead to Reductio ad Hitlerum.
(http://www.logicallyfallacious.com...)

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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12/1/2015 3:38:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 8:26:02 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

This was indeed strange. I've always understood it as Hitler that was baptized and confirmed into the Catholic church, but later on became uninterested in it. Also, he persecuted the Catholic church https://en.wikipedia.org... . He also said that he wished Europe to had embrace Islam in the Arab invasion of early Middle Ages and prior to that, because he thought it was a religion of strength whereas he thought Christianity was feeble. https://en.wikipedia.org...

I googled your citation although, and the sources I find to that one were:

Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19"20, Oxford University Press, 1942

I can't be bothered to find that book and verify it. Even though Hitler called himself Christian, he did not make politics out of it. Exactly like Saddam Hussein. He was Muslim to his faith from what I've heard, but didn't make politics out of it.


Something else one has to take into account is that if a dictator has a population of 90% believing Christians, he couldn't just as well say that the religion is codswallop, since he would be jeopardizing his peoples' faith in him. Take Gustav I of Sweden for example, converting Sweden from catholicism to protestantism in the 1500s. Historians today say that despite having been baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, he was religiously uninterested later in life. Despite this, he did this conversion (which was mainly about money) and he also claimed openly to be a Christian and also having a Christian mottos.

There's no doubt in my mind that Hitler was not a Christian. But the retort to many of the facts including what you presented is the "No True Scotsman" argument. The idea being that Hitler's Christian proclamation alone rendered him a Christian irregardless of what actions he took, acknowledgment of deceptive tactics, and even his anti-Christian statements.

I also know that many other Nazi leaders spoke positively about Norse mythology, probably because they thought it was indeed connected to the Aryan roots.

Yes, this would be similar to the Norwegian terrorist who embraced Christianity and Norse religion as a form of cultural identity, stating that one not need to even believe in God to call themselves a Christian.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

Haven't read much about the founding fathers, more than some rumors I've heard saying they were deists. Maybe it's the same here, they couldn't be openly non-Christian, since they would jeopardize peoples' faith in them.
And this is part of the game. For atheists.....Hitler a Christian? No problem. Washington a Christian? Huge problem. (It was actually the Deist Union that pushed the idea of Washington being a deist, but works wonderfully with atheists).

By the way, my stance. Hitler was not a Christian. Washington was more than likely a Christian.
RoderickSpode
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12/1/2015 3:39:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 8:35:12 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

There are many millions of people who claim to be Christian, but who in reality fall a long way short of the mark, largely because they are not taught how to be, or even what being Christian truly means.

"Christian" is so very much more than just a label.
Of course.
RoderickSpode
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12/1/2015 3:47:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 3:34:34 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I know most people won't have access, but this is very important for showing just how strong the case is for Hitler being a Christian.
http://www.jstor.org...
It depends on what type of case one is presenting. One can make a strong case that Hitler was a cultural Christian as long as one can get around the idea that replacing the Bible with Mein Kampf in schools, create Nazi themed churches qualifies as Christian.

As far as the Table Talks invalidation theme, the idea usually seems to revolve around the idea that the anti-Christian quotes were lost in translation. Even if this were true, the Table Talks are not the only source of anti-Christian statements. But even your particular link doesn't seem to make any strong suggestions.

But what about George Washington who so far has been absent in the discussion? Do you think he was a Christian?
RoderickSpode
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12/1/2015 3:51:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

I guess one can question who started it. If it was the theists, is the "Hitler a Christian" merely retaliation for atheists?
However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.
Is there significance as to whether or not Hitler was a Christian in the overall big picture? What about George Washington? Do you think he was a Christian? And whether yay or nay, what would be the significance?
Fly
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12/1/2015 4:13:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:51:31 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

I guess one can question who started it. If it was the theists, is the "Hitler a Christian" merely retaliation for atheists?

Yes, one can question that, too. I just don't see a big point in it. I'll leave you to it.

When I was a Christian, I argued vehemently against Hitler being a Christian-- fending off 3 or 4 opponents simultaneously at one time. As an atheist, I don't really give a rip. I don't need to. But I do roll my eyes while Christians try to put Nazi Germany in the "atheism's fault" column-- because of what I have already stated below \/

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.
Is there significance as to whether or not Hitler was a Christian in the overall big picture? What about George Washington? Do you think he was a Christian? And whether yay or nay, what would be the significance?

I don't think so. And I doubt Washington was a Christian because it does not seem to be reflected in his records. If he was, I fail to see the ramifications you do, and if he was, I certainly doubt that he would be comparable to a present day devout Christian in the US. As it stands, I see Washington as a deist or some sort of simple theist. Of course, many people today identify as Christian who are more likely simple theists-- don't go to church, don't read the Bible, don't know the Bible, don't know doctrine, etc.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Skepticalone
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12/1/2015 4:16:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

I believe Hitler was a Christian. His book Mein Kampf is filled with his affirmations of Christianity. To those who claim this was rhetoric, we have his affirmations in personal letters (which are more likely to reflect his true feelings), and his actions banning atheism/free thinkers groups in 1933.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

As far as I'm concerned, Washington was a believer. It is very possible he was a Christian. I would need to look into it more if this not precise enough for you. (I'm on my phone now - not great for research!)

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Jovian
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12/1/2015 10:40:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:38:17 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 11/29/2015 8:26:02 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

This was indeed strange. I've always understood it as Hitler that was baptized and confirmed into the Catholic church, but later on became uninterested in it. Also, he persecuted the Catholic church https://en.wikipedia.org... . He also said that he wished Europe to had embrace Islam in the Arab invasion of early Middle Ages and prior to that, because he thought it was a religion of strength whereas he thought Christianity was feeble. https://en.wikipedia.org...

I googled your citation although, and the sources I find to that one were:

Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19"20, Oxford University Press, 1942

I can't be bothered to find that book and verify it. Even though Hitler called himself Christian, he did not make politics out of it. Exactly like Saddam Hussein. He was Muslim to his faith from what I've heard, but didn't make politics out of it.


Something else one has to take into account is that if a dictator has a population of 90% believing Christians, he couldn't just as well say that the religion is codswallop, since he would be jeopardizing his peoples' faith in him. Take Gustav I of Sweden for example, converting Sweden from catholicism to protestantism in the 1500s. Historians today say that despite having been baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, he was religiously uninterested later in life. Despite this, he did this conversion (which was mainly about money) and he also claimed openly to be a Christian and also having a Christian mottos.

There's no doubt in my mind that Hitler was not a Christian. But the retort to many of the facts including what you presented is the "No True Scotsman" argument. The idea being that Hitler's Christian proclamation alone rendered him a Christian irregardless of what actions he took, acknowledgment of deceptive tactics, and even his anti-Christian statements.

You're right about the no true scotsman actually. The Cornish biker have done that one frequently in this thread. But in this case, I've already heard so much convincing facts about Hitler not being Christian that I just guessed and provided this analogy. Hitler could had been a believing Christian here in 1922 when he said it, and later changed his mind. Something else I forgot to say was that he writes in several places of Mein Kampf about a God who created the universe. My guess is that he was either a general theist or a Christian who didn't agree with any of the existing churches (for example he writes in Mein Kampf how he saw the Catholic church as race traitors since they were missioning in Africa).

I also know that many other Nazi leaders spoke positively about Norse mythology, probably because they thought it was indeed connected to the Aryan roots.

Yes, this would be similar to the Norwegian terrorist who embraced Christianity and Norse religion as a form of cultural identity, stating that one not need to even believe in God to call themselves a Christian.

Breivik. That definition could work. He called it cultural Christianity though.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

Haven't read much about the founding fathers, more than some rumors I've heard saying they were deists. Maybe it's the same here, they couldn't be openly non-Christian, since they would jeopardize peoples' faith in them.
And this is part of the game. For atheists.....Hitler a Christian? No problem. Washington a Christian? Huge problem. (It was actually the Deist Union that pushed the idea of Washington being a deist, but works wonderfully with atheists).

By the way, my stance. Hitler was not a Christian. Washington was more than likely a Christian.
GrittyWorm
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12/2/2015 3:11:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.

Those in his own camp who were closest to him say he was a drug addict and anti-religion. Stalin was an Atheist too. If the person doesn't ever feel a need to say Jesus isy savior or Jesus is Lord, are not Christian by very definition. Even George Bush would at least say whom he served and his words were "Christ changed my life." Hitler would have choked before uttering those words.
desmac
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12/2/2015 8:48:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 3:11:22 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.

Those in his own camp who were closest to him say he was a drug addict and anti-religion. Stalin was an Atheist too. If the person doesn't ever feel a need to say Jesus isy savior or Jesus is Lord, are not Christian by very definition. Even George Bush would at least say whom he served and his words were "Christ changed my life." Hitler would have choked before uttering those words.

Hitler was baptised and confirmed in the Roman Catholic church. He never publically renounced his Catholicism, and he was certainly never excommunicated. Stalin probably learned his love of religion in the Orthodox seminary where he trained to be a priest.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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12/3/2015 12:50:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 3:11:22 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:13:25 PM, Fly wrote:
At 11/29/2015 9:37:07 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
His own close comrades declare any "god speak" was purely political and that in private he despised religion and wanted to eradicate it from society. His very actions went against the teachings of Christ and with vigor, which declared he had no fear of God, no respect for God, and most certainly had no sense of being under Christ's authority. If someone is truely your "master", you actually do what they command. "Actions speak louder thanwords". If it quacks like a duck..." "If it acts like an Atheist..." "if it declares it wants religion eradicated from society.. "

It seems that the debate over Hitler's true beliefs will always rage on. Hitler is the hot potato of theistic discussion-- Christians want to put him in the atheist camp, and atheists want to put him in the theist camp.

However, the fact remains that the rabid anti-Semitism of the German nation was because of its Christian heritage. Just take a look at Martin Luther's incendiary essay "The Jews and Their Lies." There were even some Muslims who were sympathizers or even identified as Nazis because they wanted a piece of the action.

Hitler did not act in a vacuum.

Those in his own camp who were closest to him say he was a drug addict and anti-religion. Stalin was an Atheist too. If the person doesn't ever feel a need to say Jesus isy savior or Jesus is Lord, are not Christian by very definition. Even George Bush would at least say whom he served and his words were "Christ changed my life." Hitler would have choked before uttering those words.

From Wikipedia:

"Even after a rupture with institutional Christianity (which he dated to around 1937), Steigmann-Gall saw evidence that Hitler continued to hold Jesus in high esteem, considering him to have been an Aryan fighter who struggled against Jewry."

Source: Steigmann-Gall, Richard (2003). The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 118"20, 155"6. ISBN 0-521-82371-4.
MadCornishBiker
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12/4/2015 11:02:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:42:09 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
For those who claim that Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. This being a quote commonly used to suggest he was.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Can you claim that George Washington was undoubtedly a Christian as well?

"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it." (To save some of you the trouble, this is not a fake quote. But go ahead and google it if you wish).

I find it fascinating how people find it possible to say what a person is going by the mere label that he or she wears, rather than by whether or not they live up to it.

One who claims to be Christian is only a Christian in reality if they truly imitate Christ in every way humanly possible.

That definition, the one by which all will be judged, rules out the vast majority of those who make the claim to such exalted status.

One can only attempt to be Christian, success will always elude us in this system of things because it is beyond the capabilities of humans.

However for Jehovah and his son, earnest and genuine, strenuous effort is currently sufficient.

For all his catholicism, and even partly because of it, Hitler fails the examination which will judge him.

"Christian" is so very much more than a label.