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Who can you really trust?

MadCornishBiker
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11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many on here would say, for instance that I trust the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

But they are wrong.

I trust who and what they are, because I have proven that to my own satisfaction.

But I do not trust them.

Why, because they are human, and humans make errors.

Be honest. Scripture clearly shows us that even Christ made at least two human errors, and since he could and did make them no human is immune.

However, time proved his errors to be just that, and Jehovah made sure that his errors were clearly shown in scripture, and the true sequence of events were documented carefully.

Likewise he has always made sure that, in his own good time, all the mistakes that the Governing Body have been revealed to them, one way or another.

Do they trust themselves?

No, they do not.

Think about it.

If they trusted themselves, why would they still be working on improving their translation of the NWT?

Most translators make their translation, and when thy are satisfied with it they release it, and that is that. With extremely few exception it is them left to others to revise it.

The WTBTS Bible Translation Committee, know they have not got it 100% right yet, so they keep working.

But they also know, as do I, that Jehovah will correct any errors they may have made in his own way and his own time.

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.

That is why being a JW is so difficult, because you have to learn not to rely on mere humans but on the invisible God, his son, and their faithful Angels.

That is also why keeping united in the faith, as all true Christians must, is so hard. because if we discover what appears to be an error, we have to wait for Jehovah to confirm or deny what we think, and that takes a lot of patience and a lot of trust in Jehovah.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
eli-stills
Posts: 27
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12/1/2015 4:05:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
MadCornishBiker
"Be honest. Scripture clearly shows us that even Christ made at least two human errors, and since he could and did make them no human is immune."

Is this just your opinion or the J.W's and what two mistakes did Christ make?

If I may ask I'm curious if it's true that based on Revelation J.W."s believe that heaven has reached its maximum capacity or is that urban legend?

Eli
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/1/2015 6:12:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

That's no different to saying , don't trust us, trust our instincts to guide us.
When they go wrong they can blame their flesh for not listening to their instincts.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/1/2015 6:24:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many on here would say, for instance that I trust the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

But they are wrong.

I trust who and what they are, because I have proven that to my own satisfaction.

But I do not trust them.

Why, because they are human, and humans make errors.

Be honest. Scripture clearly shows us that even Christ made at least two human errors, and since he could and did make them no human is immune.

Please point out those errors.

However, time proved his errors to be just that, and Jehovah made sure that his errors were clearly shown in scripture, and the true sequence of events were documented carefully.

Likewise he has always made sure that, in his own good time, all the mistakes that the Governing Body have been revealed to them, one way or another.

Do they trust themselves?

No, they do not.

They claim they do not but they believe their own doctrines.

Think about it.

If they trusted themselves, why would they still be working on improving their translation of the NWT?

Most translators make their translation, and when thy are satisfied with it they release it, and that is that. With extremely few exception it is them left to others to revise it.

The WTBTS Bible Translation Committee, know they have not got it 100% right yet, so they keep working.

But they also know, as do I, that Jehovah will correct any errors they may have made in his own way and his own time.

Why can't he just send them a tablet written by the finger of God like he did for Moses and then they would be sure they have it right.

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.

No different to saying "Don't trust us. Trust our instincts to guide us."

That is why being a JW is so difficult, because you have to learn not to rely on mere humans but on the invisible God, his son, and their faithful Angels.

Yes it is very difficult to rely on invisible supernatural characters when you cannot hear or see them and only have a mythical stories about them to rely on.

That is also why keeping united in the faith, as all true Christians must, is so hard. because if we discover what appears to be an error, we have to wait for Jehovah to confirm or deny what we think, and that takes a lot of patience and a lot of trust in Jehovah.

Definitely keep that chin up and stay strong in your belief in Santa. He will bring you prezzies at xmas even if you have been a naughty boy.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.

It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/1/2015 12:14:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.

No, it is not.

JWs have to learn, as all who follow Christ did, that humans cannot be trusted, only Jehovah can.

Trusting in Jehovah to correct their mistakes does not mean trusting them, it simply means accepting what they say until Jehovah proves otherwise.

There is a world of difference between the two.


It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.

Nobody should trust you, because the calendar proved your doctrine wrong over 1900 years ago and you still refuse to accept it.

At least when Jehovah corrected them, or allowed the calendar to do so, the JWs accepted that they had made errors and corrected them.

You have yet to accept your much more serious ones let alone correct them.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/1/2015 12:40:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 4:05:15 AM, eli-stills wrote:
MadCornishBiker
"Be honest. Scripture clearly shows us that even Christ made at least two human errors, and since he could and did make them no human is immune."

Is this just your opinion or the J.W's and what two mistakes did Christ make?

May I first say thank you for asking the question.

All Christ ever wanted was for people to ask him what he meant, and I am no different in that regard since I try to imitate him. LIke him I appreciate any honest enquiry no matter how basic it may be, or how dumb you may think it is.

It is a great truism that the only stupid questions are those which are never asked.

The one mistake was when he told the Pharisees that he would be in the grave for three days and three nights when in fact, as scripture shows he was in the grave only for parts of three days and two nights.

The second recorded error was when he apparently indicated to them that it was his actual body that would be resurrected yet as scripture both tells us, and also clearly demonstrates he was resurrected as a spirit, and had to materialise a body, which none recognised, to become visible to his followers.

This is ably demonstrated by the facts that:

He was able to simply vanish from the sight of the disciples with whom he had walked and talked on the road to Emmaus, and shared a meal with, and did so in the instant they actually recognised who he was.

He was also able to simply appear in the middle of a crowded room, so suddenly that his disciples believed they were seeing a ghost, and was still unrecognisable to them, even by the wounds, which would have been on full view in his hands and feet, but which he had to produce in his flesh for them to believe.

Peter also attests to this at 1 Peter 3:18-19, though not all translations portray what Peter said clearly enough to be understood without the scriptural evidence of events after his resurrection.

Had Christ, as he apparently indicated, been resurrected in his own body:

He would have been recognisable, especially to those who had been close to him.

He would not have been able to simply vanish from sight.

He would not have had to produce his wounds since the ones in his hands and feet would have been clearly visible.

He would not have been able to ascend to heaven in the way he did since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.


If I may ask I'm curious if it's true that based on Revelation J.W."s believe that heaven has reached its maximum capacity or is that urban legend?

Eli

That is a distortion of the true facts. A half truth if you like.

Heaven was only intended for so many, and until Satan and the demons were cast out it was at capacity.

Those who have been anointed by Jehovah's spirit as partakers in the New Covenant and have already died, will have been resurrected to heavenly life, presumably to replace those unfaithful Angels, and to rule as Kings and Priests alongside Jehovah's son.

The Bible does give a specific number, and we have no reason to doubt that it is literal, and that is 144,000, as with all heavenly arrangements it is a multiple of 12.

The earth was made to be mankind's home, and mankind was made to care for it.

That was the original plan, and Adam and Eve were to fill it with equally eternally living humans to carry out Jehovah's purpose for the earth, and to enjoy it whilst they did.

The word "fill" when used to Adam also implies a finite number.

Jehovah will have his way, despite all of Satan's efforts to prevent him from doing so, and the earth will in the end be populated by just such humans.

They will be made up from those who survive Armageddon, plus all those resurrected from the dead. As a group they will all be taught Jehovah's ways and given ample opportunity to learn and practice them before undergoing one final test, Satan's final chance to prove his case.

Those who survive that test will then be accepted as replacements for Adam and Eve and their progeny and will enjoy eternal life in perfect health provided only that they remain faithful to Jehovah's very few requirements.

Whether there will be further generations produced is not known, nor revealed in scripture. In fact it is indicated, though not stated outright, that not all who are resurrected will be able to bear children, and the time will certainly come when the planet is full and therefore reproduction will inevitably cease, as it inevitably would have done under the original plan.

Does that help any?

You may wish to read http://www.jw.org... and possibly follow the links in it for further explanation.

The JWs also appreciate honest enquiry, and have a web site full of answers for those who choose to ask, with no registration need or price asked.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/1/2015 12:48:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

Thank you.

It is not so much that people miss that piece of information, but that such as Annanicole and her ilk do all they can to obscure it from people.

However such as you recognise that it is absolutely true that JWs are asked to trust in Jehovah, not in men. Any men. Including them.

We are however asked to prove to ourselves that the Governing Body are exactly who and what they claim to be, and that is easy enough to do for the honest hearted, since Jehovah is actively searching for such ones, rare as they are, (John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:13-14) and is only too delighted to aid them in any way.

Sometimes the ways Jehovah helps us to see the truth may not seem pleasant at the time. You only have to think of the events that made Saul into the Apostle Paul to realise that. However if we are as stubborn in our error as Saul was then drastic measures are needed, and I can attest to that, though mine were not as savage as those Saul suffered, but every bit as disturbing and confusing.

However, of such things it can truly be said that the end justifies the means.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/1/2015 2:28:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 12:14:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.

No, it is not.

JWs have to learn, as all who follow Christ did, that humans cannot be trusted, only Jehovah can.

Trusting in Jehovah to correct their mistakes does not mean trusting them, it simply means accepting what they say until Jehovah proves otherwise.

There is a world of difference between the two.


It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.

Nobody should trust you, because the calendar proved your doctrine wrong over 1900 years ago and you still refuse to accept it.

The difference is that I'm not stupid enough to say, "Trust me - and if you don't do and say as I think you should, then out ya go!"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
eli-stills
Posts: 27
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12/1/2015 6:29:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 12:40:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/1/2015 4:05:15 AM, eli-stills wrote:
MadCornishBiker
"Be honest. Scripture clearly shows us that even Christ made at least two human errors, and since he could and did make them no human is immune."

Is this just your opinion or the J.W's and what two mistakes did Christ make?
...edit...
The one mistake was when he told the Pharisees that he would be in the grave for three days and three nights when in fact, as scripture shows he was in the grave only for parts of three days and two nights.

The second recorded error was when he apparently indicated to them that it was his actual body that would be resurrected yet as scripture both tells us, and also clearly demonstrates he was resurrected as a spirit, and had to materialise a body, which none recognised, to become visible to his followers.

This is ably demonstrated by the facts that:

He was able to simply vanish from the sight of the disciples with whom he had walked and talked on the road to Emmaus, and shared a meal with, and did so in the instant they actually recognised who he was.

He was also able to simply appear in the middle of a crowded room, so suddenly that his disciples believed they were seeing a ghost, and was still unrecognisable to them, even by the wounds, which would have been on full view in his hands and feet, but which he had to produce in his flesh for them to believe.

Peter also attests to this at 1 Peter 3:18-19, though not all translations portray what Peter said clearly enough to be understood without the scriptural evidence of events after his resurrection.

Had Christ, as he apparently indicated, been resurrected in his own body:

He would have been recognisable, especially to those who had been close to him.

He would not have been able to simply vanish from sight.

He would not have had to produce his wounds since the ones in his hands and feet would have been clearly visible.

He would not have been able to ascend to heaven in the way he did since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.
...edit...

Thank you for your response MCB.
In your OP you seem to be willing to admit that there is much we don't understand or have interpreted in error and yet you assert that it was the Christ figure who was mistaken in these two regards.

MadCornishBiker quote:
"The one mistake was when he told the Pharisees that he would be in the grave for three days and three nights when in fact, as scripture shows he was in the grave only for parts of three days and two nights."

Why do you attribute this error to Christ when it can be argued that your misunderstanding of when Jesus was crucified is the result of your misinterpreting the high days of Passover and their significance to the story of Christ's death and resurrection?

It's possible that Jesus's body was placed in the tomb by 3:00 PM on Wednesday prior to the Passover High Day Sabbath and resurrected on the weekly Sabbath.

As a J.W. do you accept all Catholic dogma to be correct or just the Good Friday tradition?

MadCornishBiker quote:
"The second recorded error was when he apparently indicated to them that it was his actual body that would be resurrected yet as scripture both tells us, and also clearly demonstrates he was resurrected as a spirit, and had to materialize a body, which none recognized, to become visible to his followers.

You seem less confident in your response than you did in your original statement. Is this not the same Jesus who once walked on water as well as performing other miracles that defy our understanding of physics?

Wasn't Jesus beaten beyond recognition prior to his crucifixion?

If you accept that he bore the wounds of the crucifixion post resurrection why do you expect the facial trauma to have healed or that Jesus did not hide his injuries from the public?"

Lastly if his body was not raised from the dead why was it absent from the tomb?

Regarding the occupancy issue I appreciate your answering my off topic curiosity. I have often wanted to ask that question but knew of no one to ask.

Eli
tstor
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12/1/2015 9:12:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 6:12:19 AM, Skyangel wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

That's no different to saying , don't trust us, trust our instincts to guide us.
Not at all the same. The instincts of a person are apart of the individual.

When they go wrong they can blame their flesh for not listening to their instincts.
Are you not aware of what "instincts" are? The psychological definition for an "instinct" is:

"A behavior that is genetically programmed into an entire species. Thus, the behavior is not the result of learning, and can be seen across members of a species. For example, there are specific nest building behaviors that are part of different species of birds. If you hatch one of these birds in captivity and raise it without any contact with any other members of its species, it will still do those species-specific nest building behaviors."

So no one can disobey their own instincts.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
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12/1/2015 9:12:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM, annanicole wrote:


That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.
I think that is exactly what he showed they do not do.

It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."
Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.
And how long is "pretty soon"? It seems to me that JWs have existed since 1930 and have been growing. How long are you going to compare apples to oranges?
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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12/1/2015 11:16:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:12:11 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/1/2015 6:12:19 AM, Skyangel wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

That's no different to saying , don't trust us, trust our instincts to guide us.
Not at all the same. The instincts of a person are apart of the individual.

So are their gods. Other names for God/gods could be conscience, instincts, desires, corporate agreement.
After all it is conscience which convinces people they are doing right or wrong. It is corporate agreement of leadership in any clubs which decides what they teach as true or false.
When people use intuition, and it works out for them, many often claim God told them to do whatever they did. When it doesn't work or their instincts failed or fooled them, they or others judge that as "they were either deceived by the devil or following their fleshly lusts". Obviously that terminology applies only to believers in gods and devils.
It is merely a matter of expression.
What science calls a hypothesis, believers call faith.
Either way it is merely a supposition, speculation, or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

It seems there is evidence of something we all call conscience and consciousness ( including intuition or hunches) within us but science cannot find these things to put under a microscope and has no clue where it physically comes from or where it goes after death.
The reason seems to be due to these things being in the abstract psychological part of our minds where imagination also "abides" for want of a better word.
That part of us is what the religions of the world refer to as God. The hunches, intuitions, conscience, suppositions etc, is generally the part they are talking about when they claim to hear from God or have faith in whatever they claim to have faith in.

When they go wrong they can blame their flesh for not listening to their instincts.
Are you not aware of what "instincts" are? The psychological definition for an "instinct" is:

"A behavior that is genetically programmed into an entire species. Thus, the behavior is not the result of learning, and can be seen across members of a species. For example, there are specific nest building behaviors that are part of different species of birds. If you hatch one of these birds in captivity and raise it without any contact with any other members of its species, it will still do those species-specific nest building behaviors."

I totally understand that but we need to ask....
Programmed by who or what? Mother Nature? Father Time? God ? The species themselves ?
What if the bird is born with a disability? Disabled birds do not survive due to lacking necessary abilities which can in some cases be the very instincts they need to survive. Therefore you cannot claim instincts are programmed into anything by any supernatural creator because if they were, he does no better job of it than Mother Nature does. Many disabled creatures and mutations are still born due to the "programming" not always working correctly.
Genetics, DNA, reproduction cycles, environments, observations, perceptions, traditions, etc etc... ALL of these things, not just one of them, play a part in the life of all species. Everything works together as a whole just like clockwork. Take away one spring or coil or "throw a spanner in the works" and the "clock" won't work "normally" or correctly.

Some things are inherited and some things are learned from our ancestors or from personal experience. It is foolish to claim just one individual thing or supernatural person is responsible for all of nature and the way we are.
Nature is obviously diverse and there is no logical reason to believe it has not always been diverse. There are obvious laws of nature which work in predictable cycles but nature also seems to break its own laws at times and does something totally unexpected like creating mutations due to something not working correctly in the reproductive system.

Wild animals "program" their own offspring to behave the same as their parents. The "programming" is handed down through genetics as well as the species own observation of their own species and how they expect their offspring to behave.

The will to live is programmed into all living things which have a will. Living things will do what their instincts tell them is necessary to survive. Humans also build "nests" but their instincts simply tell them to build different types of "nests" than what birds do. Nesting is programmed into all animals.

The concept of God or gods is programmed into the entire species of humans by humans. We follow the traditions and beliefs of our ancestors because they programmed us that way even if unintentionally.

So no one can disobey their own instincts.

That is debatable. I think humans can and do often disobey their own instincts. It is called self control. Think about people who get angry and feel like killing someone but do not because their conscience and moral beliefs that it is wrong to kill, help them to control such aggressive instincts.
Therefore conscience and morality is the "god" over instincts. Understand ?
If we had no teachings about morality, good and evil we would be like any other animals and simply do whatever we felt like doing and when we feel angry enough to kill another person we would not think twice about it or the consequences of being jailed for it.

No other species judge their own for killing one of their kind in the same way humans do.
Humans are perfectly capable of disobeying or violating their own instincts and they are also capable of disobeying and violating their own conscience.
tstor
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12/1/2015 11:44:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 11:16:08 PM, Skyangel wrote:

That's no different to saying , don't trust us, trust our instincts to guide us.
Not at all the same. The instincts of a person are apart of the individual.

So are their gods. Other names for God/gods could be conscience, instincts, desires, corporate agreement.
Why are you defining those things as "gods"? It is quite obvious that is not what the Governing Body is talking about.

After all it is conscience which convinces people they are doing right or wrong. It is corporate agreement of leadership in any clubs which decides what they teach as true or false.
The September Watchtower discusses consciousness:

"JEHOVAH GOD created humans with free will, that is, the liberty to choose between one option and another. God provided a valuable guide for the first man and woman and their future offspring-the conscience, an inner sense of right and wrong. Used properly, the conscience can help us to do good and to avoid wrongdoing. Our conscience thus is an evidence of God's love for us and of his desire that humans be united in doing good.

Today, humans still have the faculty of conscience. (Read Romans 2:14, 15.) Though many have strayed far from the Bible's standards of conduct, we find that some individuals often do what is good and abhor what is bad. The conscience holds many individuals back from committing deeds of extreme wickedness. Imagine how much worse world conditions would be if no one had a conscience! We would likely hear of even more evil than we do now. How grateful we can be that God has provided humans with a conscience!"

Full article:
http://www.jw.org...

When people use intuition, and it works out for them, many often claim God told them to do whatever they did. When it doesn't work or their instincts failed or fooled them, they or others judge that as "they were either deceived by the devil or following their fleshly lusts". Obviously that terminology applies only to believers in gods and devils.
Quite obviously Satan is the ruler of this world. So when bad things happen, they are caused by Satan. When good things occur, it is because we were able to beat Satan. However, what seems good is not always so good. For example, it may be nice to win the lottery. Though what if all that money makes you materialistic and turn away from Jehovah?

It is merely a matter of expression.
What science calls a hypothesis, believers call faith.
Either way it is merely a supposition, speculation, or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

It seems there is evidence of something we all call conscience and consciousness ( including intuition or hunches) within us but science cannot find these things to put under a microscope and has no clue where it physically comes from or where it goes after death.
That is true to a degree.

The reason seems to be due to these things being in the abstract psychological part of our minds where imagination also "abides" for want of a better word.
That part of us is what the religions of the world refer to as God. The hunches, intuitions, conscience, suppositions etc, is generally the part they are talking about when they claim to hear from God or have faith in whatever they claim to have faith in.
I would disagree. No one defines "god" that way. This has little relevance to what the Governing Body was talking about.

When they go wrong they can blame their flesh for not listening to their instincts.
Are you not aware of what "instincts" are? The psychological definition for an "instinct" is:

"A behavior that is genetically programmed into an entire species. Thus, the behavior is not the result of learning, and can be seen across members of a species. For example, there are specific nest building behaviors that are part of different species of birds. If you hatch one of these birds in captivity and raise it without any contact with any other members of its species, it will still do those species-specific nest building behaviors."

I totally understand that but we need to ask....
Programmed by who or what? Mother Nature? Father Time? God ? The species themselves ?
What if the bird is born with a disability? Disabled birds do not survive due to lacking necessary abilities which can in some cases be the very instincts they need to survive. Therefore you cannot claim instincts are programmed into anything by any supernatural creator because if they were, he does no better job of it than Mother Nature does. Many disabled creatures and mutations are still born due to the "programming" not always working correctly.
I am not sure what your point is.

Genetics, DNA, reproduction cycles, environments, observations, perceptions, traditions, etc etc... ALL of these things, not just one of them, play a part in the life of all species. Everything works together as a whole just like clockwork. Take away one spring or coil or "throw a spanner in the works" and the "clock" won't work "normally" or correctly.

Some things are inherited and some things are learned from our ancestors or from personal experience. It is foolish to claim just one individual thing or supernatural person is responsible for all of nature and the way we are.
What do you mean? I agree we have developed things against Jehovah's standards.

Nature is obviously diverse and there is no logical reason to believe it has not always been diverse. There are obvious laws of nature which work in predictable cycles but nature also seems to break its own laws at times and does something totally unexpected like creating mutations due to something not working correctly in the reproductive system.

Wild animals "program" their own offspring to behave the same as their parents. The "programming" is handed down through genetics as well as the species own observation of their own species and how they expect their offspring to behave.
How naturalistic.

The will to live is programmed into all living things which have a will. Living things will do what their instincts tell them is necessary to survive. Humans also build "nests" but their instincts simply tell them to build different types of "nests" than what birds do. Nesting is programmed into all animals.
Yes, it is called finding shelter.

The concept of God or gods is programmed into the entire species of humans by humans. We follow the traditions and beliefs of our ancestors because they programmed us that way even if unintentionally.
And what is your evidence for this?

So no one can disobey their own instincts.

That is debatable. I think humans can and do often disobey their own instincts. It is called self control. Think about people who get angry and feel like killing someone but do not because their conscience and moral beliefs that it is wrong to kill, help them to control such aggressive instincts.
We can try and tame our instincts, but there is no way of disobeying them. The example you gave is proof. It was the instinct to get angry, but not to go and kill someone. You can cool your anger in various ways, but the feeling of anger will still appear without even considering it. The rest of your response was based on this false idea.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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12/2/2015 12:07:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 12:14:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 1:45:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 11/30/2015 11:27:31 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.

No, it is not.

JWs have to learn, as all who follow Christ did, that humans cannot be trusted, only Jehovah can.

Trusting in Jehovah to correct their mistakes does not mean trusting them, it simply means accepting what they say until Jehovah proves otherwise.

There is a world of difference between the two.


Anna and I rarely agree on anything but in this case I must take her side.
Trusting Jehovah or God in many cases is no different to trusting the governing body of the religious institution who decide what doctrines to teach their members.
If you think there is a world of difference between the two, that "world of difference" exists only in your personal perception and bias MCB.

Most religious institutions not just JW's seem to program their members to believe the leaders of the institutions spend more time praying and taking to God than the members do and they have more of the "gifts of the spirit" and "spiritual wisdom and insight " than anyone else so they ought to know what they are talking about. Besides that they are paid to do their so called spiritual work and are presumed to be professional in the area.
The JW's are not the only institution which preaches false doctrines under the guise of being led by God.

If you MCB, wish to imply the difference is that humans are fallible and God is not, or that humans are imperfect and God is perfect, I can just as easily compare Jehovah to the very Perfect Father Time who never gets time wrong either and always leads all people, regardless of religion or non religion, to the Truth eventually and ends up forcing all of them to correct their errors and admit their foolishness.

Don't trust any people. Trust Father Time. He will sort it all out for you. However, till he does, people have no other option than to trust what their leaders tell them is true or use their own brains to figure it out if they do not trust their leaders. Ultimately it ends up with every individual trusting their own judgments and beliefs. Not Father Time or Mother Nature or God or Jehovah or any other person but themselves.

You ( referring to all readers in this case ) are the only person who is physically with you always and never leaves or forsakes you. You are with you in sickness and health , through good and bad and cannot divorce yourself if you wanted to. You are stuck with yourself whether you like yourself or not. Therefore the best thing to do is to learn to LOVE yourself and trust yourself and your own judgments because no one else will love you like you love yourself. Mother Nature, Father Time and God do not love you enough to keep you alive forever. They tend to enjoy killing people and they simply do not resurrect them from physical graves.

That is the Truth based on reality which I personally believe to be 100% FACT.

What is your truth based on? Some imaginary theory or speculation that you prefer to call faith to sound spiritual as you wait for Father Time to prove it right or wrong ?
annanicole
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12/2/2015 12:16:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:12:13 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:11:02 AM, annanicole wrote:


That is why the Governing Body do not say "trust us" they say "trust Jehovah to guide us". A very different thing indeed.
I think a lot of people miss this piece of information. Great job on highlighting it in this post!

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.
I think that is exactly what he showed they do not do.

No, that is what he ASSERTED. If you or he would like to see quotes from their literature on the subject, I'll be happy to provide it.


It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

We all know that the Bible teaches unity of believers, but ... a unity based upon what? Certainly the NT is not endorsing a sort of fake unity - a forced unity - based upon acceptance of and compliance with utter nonsense. Yet, many times in the past, that is precisely what the WatchTower has demanded.

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.

And how long is "pretty soon"? It seems to me that JWs have existed since 1930 and have been growing.

Growth is not evidence of accuracy. If it is, you oughta become a Catholic: there are over a billion of them running around versus only a few million JW's. Thus, what I said is true: the majority of people believe the WatchTower is full of crap, and a major reason is their sordid history of nonsensical predictions, none of which ever came to pass as predicted.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
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12/2/2015 12:33:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 12:40:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

The one mistake was when he told the Pharisees that he would be in the grave for three days and three nights when in fact, as scripture shows he was in the grave only for parts of three days and two nights.

I have heard that debated over and over again as people continue to take the three days as literal days.
You can find very convincing explanations to that problem if you just ask Dr Google. " explain jesus three days and nights in the tomb"
There are obviously many people who can explain away the apparent contradiction well enough to convince themselves it is not a contradiction.

My personal opinion and hunch is that the three days do not refer to three literal days at all but are more symbolic of the three days we refer to as Yesterday Today and Tomorrow. Those three days are always with us and remain always with us for all eternity.
That is more of an abstract or spiritual interpretation to which I expect most believers to object, but nevertheless it is how I see things and I cannot do a thing about the way my own mind interprets things, the same as you can't do anything about the way yours interprets things.

Anyway, for anyone who does decide to consider the possibility of my perception and interpretation being realistic in a spiritual sense, think about how the WORD of God is supposed to be the SAME YESTERDAY TODAY and FOREVER. Also ask yourselves, how on Earth is it possible to crucify the son of God afresh ( Hebrews 6:6) if the crucifixion is referring to any literal crucifixion of a man in the first place?
If it was a literal crucifixion of the son of God then any crucifixion of "the son of God afresh " would need to be the same as the first one. ie. a Literal physical one. If the first one was a symbolic one or a spiritual one then all the rest are also symbolic or spiritual crucifixions and not of any physical person but of the TRUTH which people reject as lies. That , my friends and enemies is logically the only way any "son of God" can be crucified afresh or die daily.
tstor
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12/2/2015 1:10:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 12:16:02 AM, annanicole wrote:

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.
I think that is exactly what he showed they do not do.

No, that is what he ASSERTED. If you or he would like to see quotes from their literature on the subject, I'll be happy to provide it.
Go ahead. I am sure I have already read the quotes and found them to be out of context. Many anti-JW websites tend to do that.

It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

We all know that the Bible teaches unity of believers, but ... a unity based upon what? Certainly the NT is not endorsing a sort of fake unity - a forced unity - based upon acceptance of and compliance with utter nonsense. Yet, many times in the past, that is precisely what the WatchTower has demanded.
The Watchtower does not teach "utter nonsense." However, I will point you to verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2:
"Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus."

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15:
"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

Hebrews 13:7:
"Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith."

Hebrews 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

This is what the New Testament teaches.

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.

And how long is "pretty soon"? It seems to me that JWs have existed since 1930 and have been growing.

Growth is not evidence of accuracy. If it is, you oughta become a Catholic: there are over a billion of them running around versus only a few million JW's. Thus, what I said is true: the majority of people believe the WatchTower is full of crap, and a major reason is their sordid history of nonsensical predictions, none of which ever came to pass as predicted.
I am not saying that growth is evidence of accuracy. However, it is evidence that the "the majority of the people" are not getting the idea of the Watchtower being in the dark on reality.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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12/2/2015 1:19:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 12:40:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

The second recorded error was when he apparently indicated to them that it was his actual body that would be resurrected yet as scripture both tells us, and also clearly demonstrates he was resurrected as a spirit, and had to materialise a body, which none recognised, to become visible to his followers.

This is ably demonstrated by the facts that:

He was able to simply vanish from the sight of the disciples with whom he had walked and talked on the road to Emmaus, and shared a meal with, and did so in the instant they actually recognised who he was.

He was also able to simply appear in the middle of a crowded room, so suddenly that his disciples believed they were seeing a ghost, and was still unrecognisable to them, even by the wounds, which would have been on full view in his hands and feet, but which he had to produce in his flesh for them to believe.

Peter also attests to this at 1 Peter 3:18-19, though not all translations portray what Peter said clearly enough to be understood without the scriptural evidence of events after his resurrection.

Had Christ, as he apparently indicated, been resurrected in his own body:

He would have been recognisable, especially to those who had been close to him.

He would not have been able to simply vanish from sight.

He would not have had to produce his wounds since the ones in his hands and feet would have been clearly visible.

He would not have been able to ascend to heaven in the way he did since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.


I all boils down to the fact that the bible can be perceived and interpreted both in a literal way and also in a spiritual way and both those ways have various versions within themselves as well.

When you take it literally it seems that many more than just two errors can be found. Many statements or concepts which simply do not make sense in a literal interpretation of Jesus as a physical man on Earth, make perfect sense in a spiritual interpretation of the character representing a person who LIVES a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH.
Therefore whether you believe the bible to be true or false always depends on whether you interpret it literally or spiritually.

In a literal sense it appears to be false yet many religious enthusiasts spend their lives attempting to reconcile the apparent contradictions and convince themselves their explanations are acceptable enough to believe themselves and teach their doctrines of Jesus being a literal supernatural person on planet Earth as truth to others.
Explanations for any biblical contradictions can be found if you put in the effort to look for them.

However, the literal interpretation always fails in the sense that any prophecies which appear to be futuristic have not happened yet and therefore fail IF believers are supposed to believe that the character fulfilled all prophecies about himself and finished the work the Father sent him to do.
If a physical supernatural individual is going to return to this planet one day then his work is obviously not finished at all and therefore his prayer in John 17: 4 is a lie and he has not finished at all. However, I am aware that believers even twist their way out of that by claiming his work at the time was finished but not his work of the future time.

If you interpret it in a spiritual sense, then all his work is complete at all times past present and future due to that work being a PROCESS and PRINCIPLE he put into action and gave his followers the RESPONSIBILITY to FOLLOW the EXAMPLE he set as well as giving them the POWER and ABILITY to follow that example.
In essence, believers are supposed to BE the LIGHT of the WORLD in the FLESH ( the physical body of Christ ) on this Earth today but they are too busy crying like babies about how weak and imperfect they are as they pray for dear life for their "Super Daddy" to come back and save them from their imperfect state of mind instead of GROWING UP and BECOMING the PARENT which teaches the children and babes in Christ that THEY are POWERFUL and have no need for someone more powerful than they are to come floating out of the sky to save them from their weaknesses. It is their responsibility to BE STRONG and OVERCOME their fears with the POWER of the TRUTH which is within them at all times and never leaves or forsakes them at any time but is manifest in their own physical flesh on Earth.

Worshiping the man is futile.
Follow the message and Live according to it instead of idolizing a man and waiting for his return.
He "the Spirit of Truth" has returned already in SPIRIT. He has always been a spirit within a man ( many different men ) He returns daily, the same as the light from the East which shines to the West does. Every single individual on the planet yesterday today and forever sees him physically and spiritually because he is LIFE. If you cannot see LIFE then you are blind. However even the physically blind can "see Life" in their understanding of it. It is IN THEM regardless of whether they acknowledge that fact or claim it is all chemicals or not. The spirit of LIFE is in all living things including in those without a brain to think. If it was not, they would be physically dead as well as spiritually dead.

The only body which needs resurrecting, yesterday today and tomorrow for all eternity, is the physical body of Christ on Earth which is the church. They need resurrecting from their whited sepulchres ( Matt 23:27 ) and need to repent ( Rev 2, Rev 3) , put away their idols and start following the MESSAGE of the one they idolize instead of following the supernatural character and hoping that character will solve all their problems for them.
REPENT and GROW UP CHURCH.

Acts 17:22 - 32
I perceive that in all things the believers today are too superstitious.

Judgment day is EVERY DAY. Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Judge yourselves today and you will not be judged. 1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Skyangel
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12/2/2015 1:48:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 11:44:37 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/1/2015 11:16:08 PM, Skyangel wrote:

That's no different to saying , don't trust us, trust our instincts to guide us.
Not at all the same. The instincts of a person are apart of the individual.

So are their gods. Other names for God/gods could be conscience, instincts, desires, corporate agreement.
Why are you defining those things as "gods"? It is quite obvious that is not what the Governing Body is talking about.

Because the concept of god is "that which is the ultimate ruling force which lays down the laws".
Any ultimate ruler or motivating force within humans is their own conscience and instincts.
When they gather together to discuss right and wrong, or doctrinal issues in any sect, the corporate understanding and agreement rules and that becomes the leading authority.

In any club, sect or gathering, the law/ rules are laid down by the leaders of the club and those laws are the "god" by which all members must abide or face the consequences of lack of conformity.

After all it is conscience which convinces people they are doing right or wrong. It is corporate agreement of leadership in any clubs which decides what they teach as true or false.
annanicole
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12/2/2015 2:03:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 1:10:36 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/2/2015 12:16:02 AM, annanicole wrote:

What he forgot to say is that the leadership of the WatchTower has stated before that "trusting in Jehovah to guide us" is tantamount with "trust the Governing Body" or its equivalent.
I think that is exactly what he showed they do not do.

No, that is what he ASSERTED. If you or he would like to see quotes from their literature on the subject, I'll be happy to provide it.
Go ahead. I am sure I have already read the quotes and found them to be out of context. Many anti-JW websites tend to do that.

It's not much different than me saying, "Don't trust Anna. Trust Jehovah. However, for the time being, you have to believe and teach exactly what Anna does - and if you don't, Anna will give you the boot right quick."

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

We all know that the Bible teaches unity of believers, but ... a unity based upon what? Certainly the NT is not endorsing a sort of fake unity - a forced unity - based upon acceptance of and compliance with utter nonsense. Yet, many times in the past, that is precisely what the WatchTower has demanded.
The Watchtower does not teach "utter nonsense." However, I will point you to verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2:
"Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus."

That passage has nothing to do with the WatchTower at all. An inspired man, Paul, gave instructions to the Thessalonian Christians.

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15:
"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

Again, nothing whatsoever to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:7:
"Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith."

Nothing to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

This is what the New Testament teaches.

And none of has a thing in the world to do with forced adherence to the endless - and historically very erroneous - speculations of the WatchTower.

Example: Anna tells you that Clemson will win the national championship. However, the clock is ticking on that. Come December 11th, we find out that ... yes ... Alabama wins again. Now Anna can't admit that she misled everyone. Certainly not. So we'll just say that by allowing Bama to win and Clemson to lose, Jehovah was correcting Anna! Then Anna proceeds on, year after year, predicting utter nonsense. Jehovah seems to correct it every time. Pretty soon, the majority of the people kinda get the idea that Anna doesn't know what she's talking about.

And how long is "pretty soon"? It seems to me that JWs have existed since 1930 and have been growing.

Growth is not evidence of accuracy. If it is, you oughta become a Catholic: there are over a billion of them running around versus only a few million JW's. Thus, what I said is true: the majority of people believe the WatchTower is full of crap, and a major reason is their sordid history of nonsensical predictions, none of which ever came to pass as predicted.

I am not saying that growth is evidence of accuracy. However, it is evidence that the "the majority of the people" are not getting the idea of the Watchtower being in the dark on reality.

Apparently it is. The WatchTower has typically been a laughing stock as it pronounces yet another error and labels it "new light". Then in a few years, the "new light" grows dimmer and dimmer and finally goes out - and thus become "old light". Then the new "old light" is replaced by some more erroneous "new light". The trouble is that they go sideways all the time: they simply replace one error with another.

About all they've learned in the last 140 years - and they "learned" it begrudgingly - was to replace the so-called and very specific "old light" with vagaries. Instead of 1914 or 1925, now it's just "very soon". Same old mistake with less specificity.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
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12/2/2015 2:15:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 11:44:37 PM, tstor wrote:

The September Watchtower discusses consciousness:

"JEHOVAH GOD created humans with free will, that is, the liberty to choose between one option and another. God provided a valuable guide for the first man and woman and their future offspring-the conscience, an inner sense of right and wrong. Used properly, the conscience can help us to do good and to avoid wrongdoing. Our conscience thus is an evidence of God's love for us and of his desire that humans be united in doing good.

You could say Mother Nature created humans with free will.
Who's to say she did not ?
She has as much power as Jehovah according to the dictionary. http://www.merriam-webster.com...
She is defined as....." nature personified as a woman considered as the source and guiding force of creation"
Mother Nature is considered as the source and guiding force of creation.
Jehovah, according to popular belief is also considered to be the source and guiding force of creation. Take your pick. Try to prove one is more real than the other.
Vote for the one you really trust.
The choice is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

That inner sense of right and wrong might just as easily have been provided by Mother Nature. Can you prove it was provided by Jehovah and not by Mother Nature or Father Time? Where is your evidence ? Because a book that humans worship as if it was God himself says so ?
The conscience is not evidence of anyones love for anyone else. It is evidence of nothing but itself.
Do you think humans who appear to lack a conscience were not given one by the so called loving Creator who is supposed to give all the same and not play favorites and give anyone more than anyone else?

Today, humans still have the faculty of conscience. (Read Romans 2:14, 15.) Though many have strayed far from the Bible's standards of conduct, we find that some individuals often do what is good and abhor what is bad. The conscience holds many individuals back from committing deeds of extreme wickedness. Imagine how much worse world conditions would be if no one had a conscience! We would likely hear of even more evil than we do now. How grateful we can be that God has provided humans with a conscience!"

Obviously all humans have a conscience but ask any atheist where they think it came from and their answer is not from some supernatural creator. If they have a clue, they might attempt to explain exactly how Mother Nature created it since they study her more than they study God but I suspect most still have no clue as to how she does it.
I think our conscience is developed through the traditions we grow up in and what we are taught is right and wrong according to those traditions. No one is born with a sense of right and wrong. Babies have no clue what is right or wrong They just cry when they are uncomfortable or hungry and don't even consider if they are annoying and frustrating adults or doing something good or bad or not. They just do what they feel like doing till adults teach them to do one thing is good and doing something else is bad.
Therefore conscience and judgment regarding what is good or bad is a matter of human perception and rules not the perception and rules of some supernatural character like Mother Nature or God who destroys humans with floods and diseases and does not differentiate between good and bad people.

Full article:
http://www.jw.org...

I am currently not interested in reading the full article but if something spikes my interest I will most likely take a look.
The part you already posted is enough to show you that the word Jehovah is easily replaced with Mother Nature and no one could tell the difference. The concept is exactly the same. No one including God is irreplaceable.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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12/2/2015 2:26:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 2:03:50 AM, annanicole wrote:

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

We all know that the Bible teaches unity of believers, but ... a unity based upon what? Certainly the NT is not endorsing a sort of fake unity - a forced unity - based upon acceptance of and compliance with utter nonsense. Yet, many times in the past, that is precisely what the WatchTower has demanded.
The Watchtower does not teach "utter nonsense." However, I will point you to verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2:
"Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus."

That passage has nothing to do with the WatchTower at all. An inspired man, Paul, gave instructions to the Thessalonian Christians.

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15:
"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

Again, nothing whatsoever to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:7:
"Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith."

Nothing to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

This is what the New Testament teaches.

And none of has a thing in the world to do with forced adherence to the endless - and historically very erroneous - speculations of the WatchTower.
So you admit that the first century Christians did have an organization? Specifically a governing body? The governing body would have been composed of the elders and apostles of that time, which is described in Acts 15:22:
"Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas; they sent Judas who was called Barsabbas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers."

The Watchtower is claiming that the GB is the "faithful and discreet slave":
Think, for a moment, about the question: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?" In the first century, there was hardly a reason to ask such a question. As we saw in the preceding article, the apostles could perform miracles and even transmit miraculous gifts as proof of divine backing. (Acts 5:12)

In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah"s Witnesses. Note, however, that the word "slave" in Jesus" illustration is singular, indicating that this is a composite slave. The decisions of the Governing Body are thus made collectively.

Full article:
http://www.jw.org...

Growth is not evidence of accuracy. If it is, you oughta become a Catholic: there are over a billion of them running around versus only a few million JW's. Thus, what I said is true: the majority of people believe the WatchTower is full of crap, and a major reason is their sordid history of nonsensical predictions, none of which ever came to pass as predicted.

I am not saying that growth is evidence of accuracy. However, it is evidence that the "the majority of the people" are not getting the idea of the Watchtower being in the dark on reality.

Apparently it is. The WatchTower has typically been a laughing stock as it pronounces yet another error and labels it "new light". Then in a few years, the "new light" grows dimmer and dimmer and finally goes out - and thus become "old light". Then the new "old light" is replaced by some more erroneous "new light". The trouble is that they go sideways all the time: they simply replace one error with another.
By "laughing stock" do you mean you are the one of the few that laughs? JWs are not shrinking by any means, so they are obviously not a "laughing stock." If they were one big joke then we would see a decline.

About all they've learned in the last 140 years - and they "learned" it begrudgingly - was to replace the so-called and very specific "old light" with vagaries. Instead of 1914 or 1925, now it's just "very soon". Same old mistake with less specificity.
Very rarely, if at all, does the Watchtower use "new light." It is typically a growth in light, as their understanding of the scriptures will only get better in time. This is fundamental to the JWs.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2015 3:21:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 11:44:37 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/1/2015 11:16:08 PM, Skyangel wrote:

When people use intuition, and it works out for them, many often claim God told them to do whatever they did. When it doesn't work or their instincts failed or fooled them, they or others judge that as "they were either deceived by the devil or following their fleshly lusts". Obviously that terminology applies only to believers in gods and devils.

Quite obviously Satan is the ruler of this world. So when bad things happen, they are caused by Satan. When good things occur, it is because we were able to beat Satan. However, what seems good is not always so good. For example, it may be nice to win the lottery. Though what if all that money makes you materialistic and turn away from Jehovah?

You are claiming that a mythical character who represents evil is in control of the world. That is not true.
Humans are in control of the human world where humans make their own laws/rules and decide what punishments to assign for those who break their laws.
When it comes to the natural world, you can claim any mythical character or god is in charge of it but just because a claim is made does not mean it's any more true than claiming Mother Nature is in charge of the world. When bad things occur like famines, floods, cyclones, and other natural disasters, do you blame Satan or Mother Nature for it as if they are doing it to punish humans for something or teach them a lesson ? That is no different to the beliefs of pagan idols worshipers who personified the forces of nature as gods and believed the gods were angry when bad things happened in nature.
Intelligent people these days understand it is not true and natural disasters are not gods or sent by any gods to teach humans any lessons about what happens when you disobey those gods and stop sacrificing animals to them.
Good and bad is a matter of human perception and judgement. Circumstances happen and those circumstances in nature are uncontrollable by any humans or invisible gods. They are simply the energy/ forces of the universe at work. In ones person lives there are things we are capable of controlling and other things which are out of our control.
Maybe we should all adopt the concept of changing what we can and accepting what we cannot change and working on gaining the wisdom to know the difference instead of blaming devils or gods for what happens in our lives. Grow up and take responsibility for your own life. It is not in the hands of some supernatural characters.
The character who represents God in the bible stories gave all his power to humans, believers, followers, disciples, apostles or whatever else you want to call them so they can overcome whatever they need to overcome. He did not leave them helpless or weak.

Luke 10 :19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

The problem is many believers are either waiting to be endowed with supernatural powers from a supernatural entity or waiting for the supernatural entity to do what they should be doing themselves. Those people are waiting in vain and have totally missed the message and symbolism of the scriptures.

Humans are their own worst enemies and to overcome any devil you only need to overcome the stupidity and foolishness within your self. All that takes is a bit of maturity, wisdom and understanding of the fact that all gods are nothing but personifications of the energy of the universe and are those imaginary cartoon characters on your shoulders..
https://upload.wikimedia.org...'s_guardian_angel_retouch.png

OR the monkeys on your back.

https://momentswithmiller.files.wordpress.com...
http://image.slidesharecdn.com...
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/2/2015 3:49:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 2:26:55 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/2/2015 2:03:50 AM, annanicole wrote:

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

We all know that the Bible teaches unity of believers, but ... a unity based upon what? Certainly the NT is not endorsing a sort of fake unity - a forced unity - based upon acceptance of and compliance with utter nonsense. Yet, many times in the past, that is precisely what the WatchTower has demanded.
The Watchtower does not teach "utter nonsense." However, I will point you to verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2:
"Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus."

That passage has nothing to do with the WatchTower at all. An inspired man, Paul, gave instructions to the Thessalonian Christians.

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15:
"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

Again, nothing whatsoever to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:7:
"Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith."

Nothing to do with the WatchTower.

Hebrews 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

This is what the New Testament teaches.

And none of has a thing in the world to do with forced adherence to the endless - and historically very erroneous - speculations of the WatchTower.

So you admit that the first century Christians did have an organization?

First-century Christians WERE an organization, the church. While inspired men lived - men such as Peter, Paul, and John - they revealed gospel truths to the people. Individual churches were "governed" by elders, the qualifications of which are given in the NT.

Specifically a governing body?

There was nothing called a "governing body". Somebody just made up the term.

The governing body would have been composed of the elders and apostles of that time, which is described in Acts 15:22:

Then it still would be, if such a thing existed.

"Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas; they sent Judas who was called Barsabbas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers."

The Watchtower is claiming that the GB is the "faithful and discreet slave":

Again, the NT knows nothing of any "Governing Body". Certainly there was a convening of apostles and elders in Jerusalem in Acts 15. No such group exists today.

Think, for a moment, about the question: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?" In the first century, there was hardly a reason to ask such a question. As we saw in the preceding article, the apostles could perform miracles and even transmit miraculous gifts as proof of divine backing. (Acts 5:12)

In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah"s Witnesses.

I personally know of no one who makes such an identification, other than Jehovah's Witnesses - and they would be a very poor "witness" on the subject.

Note, however, that the word "slave" in Jesus" illustration is singular, indicating that this is a composite slave. The decisions of the Governing Body are thus made collectively.

The singular "slave" does not mean "a composite of people."

Growth is not evidence of accuracy. If it is, you oughta become a Catholic: there are over a billion of them running around versus only a few million JW's. Thus, what I said is true: the majority of people believe the WatchTower is full of crap, and a major reason is their sordid history of nonsensical predictions, none of which ever came to pass as predicted.

I am not saying that growth is evidence of accuracy. However, it is evidence that the "the majority of the people" are not getting the idea of the Watchtower being in the dark on reality.

Apparently it is. The WatchTower has typically been a laughing stock as it pronounces yet another error and labels it "new light". Then in a few years, the "new light" grows dimmer and dimmer and finally goes out - and thus become "old light". Then the new "old light" is replaced by some more erroneous "new light". The trouble is that they go sideways all the time: they simply replace one error with another.

By "laughing stock" do you mean you are the one of the few that laughs? JWs are not shrinking by any means, so they are obviously not a "laughing stock." If they were one big joke then we would see a decline.

Again, growth - or the lack of it - is not evidence of anything. The JW's didn't grow anywhere near as fast as the Jim Jones cult that drank the laced Kool-Aid.

About all they've learned in the last 140 years - and they "learned" it begrudgingly - was to replace the so-called and very specific "old light" with vagaries. Instead of 1914 or 1925, now it's just "very soon". Same old mistake with less specificity.

Very rarely, if at all, does the Watchtower use "new light." It is typically a growth in light, as their understanding of the scriptures will only get better in time. This is fundamental to the JWs.

Well, your buddy Russell had this to say:

"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now;" But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New Light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it"" Zion's Watch Tower 1881 Feb pp. 3, 188

Thus, when 1914 didn't work out as expected, according to you they experienced a "growth in light, as their understanding of the scriptures will only get better in time."
Thus, this supposed "growth" came to fruition with Rutherford's 1925 predictions. Could you explain for us exactly how these 1925 predictions represented "growth" of any kind - even by a stretch?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/2/2015 4:08:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 2:26:55 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/2/2015 2:03:50 AM, annanicole wrote:

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

The whole point is: the unity referenced in the NT is not a sort of false unity based upon the forced acceptance of errors. Yet this forced acceptance, i. e. conform to our guesses or get out, was practiced by the WatchTower for decades, even though those very guesses (1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1926, etc) were proven wrong time and time again.

That's not the sort of unity of which the Bible speaks.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/2/2015 9:57:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 4:08:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/2/2015 2:26:55 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/2/2015 2:03:50 AM, annanicole wrote:

Unity is what the Bible teaches. The understanding of scriptures will get better as time goes on. This is quite obvious.

The whole point is: the unity referenced in the NT is not a sort of false unity based upon the forced acceptance of errors. Yet this forced acceptance, i. e. conform to our guesses or get out, was practiced by the WatchTower for decades, even though those very guesses (1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1926, etc) were proven wrong time and time again.

That Anna is a seriously erroneous statement based on a half truth as I shall explain further down.

You do your masters work well Anna. Like you, Satan knows he cannot win, but he still does all he can, using such as you, to pull as many away from Jehovah as he can.

Like you, he was always master of the half truth, the most deadly of all forms of lie.


That's not the sort of unity of which the Bible speaks.

On the contrary, the unity spoken of in scripture is the unity achieved by following the directions of the Apostles and Older Men in Jerusalem.

This is precisely the same unity as practiced by the JWs.

The Apostles and Older Men in Jerusalem were a group of spirit anointed human beings under the direction of Jehovah's spirit.

That did not make them infallible.

That is precisely the position with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, they too are a group of spirit anointed human beings.

They too are not infallible.

Yes they have made mistakes, and we have absolutely no reason to believe that the Apostles and Older men in Jerusalem did not make mistakes, though any they did make are not important, and not recorded for us to learn from.

That is not the case for Christ, Jehovah's only begotten son incarnate. His two errors, and it is safe to assume there were only two, are carefully recorded in scripture, as is the irrefutable, in honesty at least, evidence of exactly how he was in error is carefully laid out for us in scripture for us to learn from.

What is the lesson we should take from those two errors?

That even Jehovah's only begotten son was not above making errors, and therefore the only one we can rely on is precisely the one who Christ relies on. Jehovah himself.

That unity, between Christ and his God and Father, is precisely the same as the unity that his followers must strive to achieve.

That means accepting the simple fact that, as he did with his son, Jehovah will correct any errors made, in his own time and his own way.

If scripture is to be believed, and it is, Jehovah did not instantly correct his son.

He did not cause his son to recant his errors.

He simply allowed events to reveal what his son's errors were and allow them to be corrected in that way, as recorded in the last two chapters of John's gospel and the last one of Luke's.

That is precisely how he allowed the errors the Brothers made over the events which they expected to follow immediately on from the end of the Gentile Times, 1914.

He is still allowing their speculations to be refined over the precise nature of the Generation at this time.

He does correct his servants in other ways. For instance in the case Peter's gross error in teaching Gentile students to live, as Paul put it, according to the Jews, Jehovah directed Paul to publicly berate Peter for that serious error.

Those two examples, of Christ and of Peter, simply demonstrate the two extremes of how Jehovah corrects his people. The basic fact is that Jehovah corrects each of us when in error, in whatever way he see fit to, in whatever way he feels will benefit each of us as individuals, and depending on the severity of the error.

He does indeed expect us all to teach unitedly as Paul makes very clear, and if that means teaching what is an error until we are directed to clearer knowledge of the subject, then so be it.

After all, the Bible is littered with teachings which, whilst believed true at the time and according to their knowledge appeared to be true, have in time proven to be false.

As an example. Paul speaks of the Good News being preached in al the inhabited earth, and he believed that to be true.

But was it?

With our much greater knowledge of the extent of the inhabited earth we today know that Paul was in error. His knowledge of the extent of the inhabited earth was seriously lacking.

None the less, what he spoke was true according to the limitations of his knowledge.

The same is true of the teachings of the JWs.

Everything they teach at any given time, is true, according to their current level of knowledge at that time. As they learn where they have gone wrong, however they learn that fact, they simply change or expand their teachings to include their greater or improved knowledge.

Jehovah does not expect more than that. Nor should he, since we are still imperfect humans, spirit anointed, spirit directed or not.

And yes, spirit anointed and spirit directed are two different things.

I have not been anointed with holy spirit to make me a part of that group which go to heaven to rule alongside Christ.

I am however directed by holy spirit to an understanding of scripture way above that which I could ever achieve in my own strength, or any other human for that matter.

That also gives me a deeper understanding of the position, strengths and weaknesses of the Governing Body than most can easily achieve.

It is not done in my strength, but Jehovah uses simple people such as I to show his own strength to best advantage, and to his glory.