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Spiritual Christianity, a Time to Choose.....

EtrnlVw
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12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.
EtrnlVw
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12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.
dhardage
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12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

What, exactly, do you think non-believers hold to be true that is not?
EtrnlVw
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12/2/2015 6:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

What, exactly, do you think non-believers hold to be true that is not?

That is a very broad question friend lol, do you want the subjective list, the objective or both? I'll see if I can narrow things down. I'm sure you have read some of my concerns as I usually target those things.
dhardage
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12/2/2015 6:15:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 6:01:50 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

What, exactly, do you think non-believers hold to be true that is not?

That is a very broad question friend lol, do you want the subjective list, the objective or both? I'll see if I can narrow things down. I'm sure you have read some of my concerns as I usually target those things.

General categories are fine.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/2/2015 7:32:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 6:15:08 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 6:01:50 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

What, exactly, do you think non-believers hold to be true that is not?

That is a very broad question friend lol, do you want the subjective list, the objective or both? I'll see if I can narrow things down. I'm sure you have read some of my concerns as I usually target those things.

General categories are fine.

Okay but I'd rather not turn this thread into an argument about all different topics, and I accept the fact you have reasons you feel any of these things are true or supported, these are my concerns only. Due to time on my part I'll keep it short.

Genesis 1- The general stiffness regarding the creation account. Most atheists are turned away from it because they feel it should be some kind of scientific account/data rather than a truthful and accurate idea. Comparing ancient scripture written by spiritual men with current scientific terminology is very silly. It is much more simple than all of that.

That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.
I've had several experiences and I'm not a psycho and I'm not mentally ill. Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture. There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

Science- in reality science is the study of our material world, it should be a separate debate in some respects accept in philosophy and theory, as far as the existence of a spiritual realm and Creator. Science is our own method of breaking down physical components as the Human species but it does not hold any truth in and of itself, it just examines what we feed it, we examine an object or component breaking it down and learning how it functions but it has no say in spirituality or the existence of God accept individually and is somewhat irrelevant to many religious topics. God IS science in the sense He creates via the processes we observe, we study the work of a creator not the Creator Itself though because of course God is a Spirit. This is what we have seemingly endless scriptures and spiritual leaders for and people with real wisdom and knowledge, that is how this information/reality is relayed unfortunately for atheists, maybe one day we will have a breakthrough in science but for now it is incompatible with the existence of God.

Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.
EtrnlVw
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12/2/2015 7:34:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 6:03:43 PM, uncung wrote:
I smell a new denomination just born.

LOL!! Okay that was funny but in reality I do not conform to denominations, I don't reject all of them but that is not my concern. Spirituality is not concerned with irrelevant things, it is concerned with the individual.
dhardage
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12/2/2015 7:52:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 7:32:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 6:15:08 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 6:01:50 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
After thinking about it I want to apologize to this forum for what may suggest proselytizing, which would be against the better interest here though that was not my intention at all I could see how someone may think that, so I do apologize.

It's someone difficult to express these topics without it coming across that way because of the nature of the realm of spirituality, it's an individual cultivation as I pointed out, BUT nevertheless objective.
Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

What, exactly, do you think non-believers hold to be true that is not?

That is a very broad question friend lol, do you want the subjective list, the objective or both? I'll see if I can narrow things down. I'm sure you have read some of my concerns as I usually target those things.

General categories are fine.

Okay but I'd rather not turn this thread into an argument about all different topics, and I accept the fact you have reasons you feel any of these things are true or supported, these are my concerns only. Due to time on my part I'll keep it short.

Genesis 1- The general stiffness regarding the creation account. Most atheists are turned away from it because they feel it should be some kind of scientific account/data rather than a truthful and accurate idea. Comparing ancient scripture written by spiritual men with current scientific terminology is very silly. It is much more simple than all of that.

If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. If you believe it's an accurate 'idea', why do you feel it would be wrong to expect actual accuracy in what it says? If you say it's merely allegory then much of what most Christian belief is based on is false. Can you be a little more specific about what is and is not accurate?

That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed. Do you believe, for example, that Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda, or Brahma exist and have influence(d) this world directly?

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

I've had several experiences and I'm not a psycho and I'm not mentally ill. Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.

Science- in reality science is the study of our material world, it should be a separate debate in some respects accept in philosophy and theory, as far as the existence of a spiritual realm and Creator. Science is our own method of breaking down physical components as the Human species but it does not hold any truth in and of itself, it just examines what we feed it, we examine an object or component breaking it down and learning how it functions but it has no say in spirituality or the existence of God accept individually and is somewhat irrelevant to many religious topics. God IS science in the sense He creates via the processes we observe, we study the work of a creator not the Creator Itself though because of course God is a Spirit. This is what we have seemingly endless scriptures and spiritual leaders for and people with real wisdom and knowledge, that is how this information/reality is relayed unfortunately for atheists, maybe one day we will have a breakthrough in science but for now it is incompatible with the existence of God.

That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point, please feel free. If you have no facts, further discussion is useless. Good day, sir.
annanicole
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12/2/2015 8:36:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

Could you give us the definition from the Bible?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanneJeRusse
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12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skyangel
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12/3/2015 2:11:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

............snipped....
Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

Your title says "Spiritual Christianity, a Time to Choose....."

A time to choose what ? Christianity ?

Why not Buddhism or some other spiritual religion?
Buddha and others taught the same concepts Jesus did when it comes to how to treat other people.
Many religions teach the same concepts that Jesus taught.

Eg
Love and care for others.
Don't kill other people.
Don't steal.
Be respectful.
be truthful.

Anyone can do those things without following any particular leader of any religion.

It is simply about living a way of life in truth which means being honest with yourself and others. It has nothing to do with idolizing any leader of any religion or performing any religious rituals to appease some god.
Skyangel
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12/3/2015 2:17:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Besides that my heart genuinely goes out to Atheists and it is my wish that you guys wouldn't believe things that are untrue, and some of the things I'm reading here are flat out untrue, which leads people to false conclusions, I believe yal to be worth much more than that.

Is it true or false that all invisible supernatural gods are mythical characters ?

Please explain why you believe it is true or false.
bulproof
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12/3/2015 3:36:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 6:03:43 PM, uncung wrote:
I smell a new denomination just born.
It's not often I agree with you unc, but this time I do. LOL
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2015 12:58:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 7:52:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 7:32:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 6:15:08 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 6:01:50 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:15:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/2/2015 5:04:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Genesis 1- The general stiffness regarding the creation account. Most atheists are turned away from it because they feel it should be some kind of scientific account/data rather than a truthful and accurate idea. Comparing ancient scripture written by spiritual men with current scientific terminology is very silly. It is much more simple than all of that.

If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. If you believe it's an accurate 'idea', why do you feel it would be wrong to expect actual accuracy in what it says? If you say it's merely allegory then much of what most Christian belief is based on is false. Can you be a little more specific about what is and is not accurate?

Creation account is an idea Hardage, it is giving you an idea of what God did (imagery). It's accurate in the sense that God created the world through His will and actions ("God said")... had it been from a scientific standpoint it would have been much much longer to read, however it's not a science book and was never supposed to be.
Your last sentence is false and does not follow at all. I also said I didn't want to turn this into a thread where now I have to read all the same old arguments that are strawman and ignorance that are everywhere else. I would have created a topic for any one of these things had I be willing to sit through atheist thinking lol which is why I said I accept you have your little reasons!

That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed. Do you believe, for example, that Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda, or Brahma exist and have influence(d) this world directly?

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 1:00:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 8:36:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

Could you give us the definition from the Bible?

Of course...

http://www.sacred-texts.com...

That should be a sufficient description of what I mean.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 1:02:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.

Has no meaning in atheism you mean, yes that is correct. This would be the religion forum you are in.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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12/4/2015 1:52:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 1:02:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.

Has no meaning in atheism you mean, yes that is correct. This would be the religion forum you are in.

Define spiritualism?
Do you mean imagination?
Yeah whatever.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 2:24:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 1:52:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:02:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.

Has no meaning in atheism you mean, yes that is correct. This would be the religion forum you are in.

Define spiritualism?
Do you mean imagination?
Yeah whatever.

Imagination is based on your thoughts and creativity, spirituality is based on reality and truth. It comes by way of application not dreaming.
Actually ones mind and opinions are irrelevant to the matter as spirituality opposes the mind, because the mind is not the focus, the focus is bare truth uninterrupted or tainted. Spirituality brings one back into alignment with what is real and what is God.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/4/2015 2:40:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Genesis 1- The general stiffness regarding the creation account. Most atheists are turned away from it because they feel it should be some kind of scientific account/data rather than a truthful and accurate idea. Comparing ancient scripture written by spiritual men with current scientific terminology is very silly. It is much more simple than all of that.

If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. If you believe it's an accurate 'idea', why do you feel it would be wrong to expect actual accuracy in what it says? If you say it's merely allegory then much of what most Christian belief is based on is false. Can you be a little more specific about what is and is not accurate?

Creation account is an idea Hardage, it is giving you an idea of what God did (imagery). It's accurate in the sense that God created the world through His will and actions ("God said")... had it been from a scientific standpoint it would have been much much longer to read, however it's not a science book and was never supposed to be.
Your last sentence is false and does not follow at all. I also said I didn't want to turn this into a thread where now I have to read all the same old arguments that are strawman and ignorance that are everywhere else. I would have created a topic for any one of these things had I be willing to sit through atheist thinking lol which is why I said I accept you have your little reasons!

That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed. Do you believe, for example, that Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda, or Brahma exist and have influence(d) this world directly?

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.

In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/4/2015 2:42:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 1:00:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 8:36:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

Could you give us the definition from the Bible?

Of course...

http://www.sacred-texts.com...

That should be a sufficient description of what I mean.

That's just John 15. It doesn't say a word about "Christian spirituality."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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12/4/2015 3:07:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 2:24:24 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:52:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:02:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.

Has no meaning in atheism you mean, yes that is correct. This would be the religion forum you are in.

Define spiritualism?
Do you mean imagination?
Yeah whatever.

Imagination is based on your thoughts and creativity, spirituality is based on reality and truth. It comes by way of application not dreaming.
Actually ones mind and opinions are irrelevant to the matter as spirituality opposes the mind, because the mind is not the focus, the focus is bare truth uninterrupted or tainted. Spirituality brings one back into alignment with what is real and what is God.

Spirituality can therefore only be understood by something without a mind and since the mind is the product of the brain, well you see where that leaves you. OK
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 4:53:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 2:42:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:00:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/2/2015 8:36:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

Could you give us the definition from the Bible?

Of course...

http://www.sacred-texts.com...

That should be a sufficient description of what I mean.

That's just John 15. It doesn't say a word about "Christian spirituality."

Read it, let me make it more simplistic...

Spirituality- "Of or relating to the spirit"
" the traditional meaning of spirituality is a process of re-formation which aims to recover the original shape of man, the image of God. To accomplish this, the re-formation is oriented at a mold, which represents the original shape"
"the quality or state of being concerned with religion or religious matters : the quality or state of being spiritual"

Christian- http://dictionary.reference.com...

I'm simply using the words to describe an event, I'm not trying to create anything new. One word defines and the other describes what is defined.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 4:56:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 3:07:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/4/2015 2:24:24 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:52:55 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/4/2015 1:02:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:56:28 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/1/2015 3:33:49 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
What is spiritual Christianity?
"Christian Spirituality is the process of spiritual formation of a disciple of Jesus Christ for an authentic and fulfilled Christian life in the present world".

"Spiritual formation is an intentional Christian practice thats goal is the development of spiritual maturity that leads to Christ-likeness. Ancient Christian spiritual practices (prayer, the study of scripture, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, worship, etc.)."

Key words....present, formation.

Spiritual Christianity is for the present life, not the future or the past but for the now. This takes belief and spiritual revelation to a whole new level because one gets to experience outside of hearsay and opinions, which is what it was meant to be anyway, but nonetheless has become a religious and political movement as well however the core of the matter is internal, personal and individual, that is what makes it desirable.
Spiritual transformation/formation gives the applicant a chance to observe for themselves the practicality and reality of a spiritual existence through application and observation, which is not based on personal feelings or opinions but reality and truth.

Christian- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
A person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ.

I'm gonna go ahead and state that a Christian is a follower/applicant of the teachings of Jesus, not just believes, but applies. Mere belief is not the same as application as to believe means to simply accept. Application confirms beliefs, it is much more of a solid foundation.

Being raised in a "Christian" home and being dragged to church by your parents does not make you a Christian, so if you never had the freedom and conscious ability to choose for yourself I urge you to go back where you were and move forward.

Sitting in church does not make one a Christian, listening to a pastor does not make one a Christian and it doesn't make your parents one either, what makes someone a Christian is their lifestyle, what they choose and how they honor God throughout their life, not just a a section of it or on Sundays.

Reading the Bible or having a form of knowledge of it does not make one a Christian just like reading a cook book does not make one a cook. What makes someone a cook is when they take what they have learned and apply it for themselves, by cooking and learning from trial and error.

If you are an Atheist who was raised in a so-called "Christian" home and never experienced what spirituality is all about I urge you to reconsider and be open to some new ways to approach this path.

If you never were religious or Christian at all I recommend you put it in gear and give some things a shot.

Spirituality and spiritual truth are NOT subjective, they are only subjective in the sense that one cannot produce material evidence for their knowledge to another but it is not based on feelings or opinions. Many times in my spiritual life my feelings and opinions were put on the back burner to progress, in other words they are irrelevant and useless to what is fact or truth.

When I put my subjective feelings and opinions on the back burner (which I do) that makes way for more objective truth to enter and enlighten myself, if you think that all theistic beliefs are just subjective you are sadly mistaken, I can honestly tell you my feelings and opinions are not what is important here.

If you are sick of being told what to do, how to believe or what religious sect is the true one forget it all and consider a spiritual walk, where you can learn for yourself.

You used the word spiritual about fifteen times and it still has no meaning whatsoever.

Has no meaning in atheism you mean, yes that is correct. This would be the religion forum you are in.

Define spiritualism?
Do you mean imagination?
Yeah whatever.

Imagination is based on your thoughts and creativity, spirituality is based on reality and truth. It comes by way of application not dreaming.
Actually ones mind and opinions are irrelevant to the matter as spirituality opposes the mind, because the mind is not the focus, the focus is bare truth uninterrupted or tainted. Spirituality brings one back into alignment with what is real and what is God.

Spirituality can therefore only be understood by something without a mind and since the mind is the product of the brain, well you see where that leaves you. OK

Wrong, that is not what was said, read that again. Spirituality is not a product of the mind, learn how to read.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 5:07:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 2:40:14 PM, dhardage wrote:

Genesis 1- The general stiffness regarding the creation account. Most atheists are turned away from it because they feel it should be some kind of scientific account/data rather than a truthful and accurate idea. Comparing ancient scripture written by spiritual men with current scientific terminology is very silly. It is much more simple than all of that.

If it's not accurate, it's not accurate. If you believe it's an accurate 'idea', why do you feel it would be wrong to expect actual accuracy in what it says? If you say it's merely allegory then much of what most Christian belief is based on is false. Can you be a little more specific about what is and is not accurate?
Your last sentence is false and does not follow at all. I also said I didn't want to turn this into a thread where now I have to read all the same old arguments that are strawman and ignorance that are everywhere else. I would have created a topic for any one of these things had I be willing to sit through atheist thinking lol which is why I said I accept you have your little reasons!

That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.

In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.
Do you want to learn from atheists or would you like to expand that mind and spirit of yours by being open to people who know what they are saying?
dhardage
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12/4/2015 5:11:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would have created a topic for any one of these things had I be willing to sit through atheist thinking lol which is why I said I accept you have your little reasons!
That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.

In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.

If you had any evidence to support your claims it would be an actual discussion. All it is now is preaching and empty rhetoric. Fix that and you'll have an actual argument instead of depending on a term you can't even clearly define.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 5:18:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 5:11:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
I would have created a topic for any one of these things had I be willing to sit through atheist thinking lol which is why I said I accept you have your little reasons!
That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.

In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.

If you had any evidence to support your claims it would be an actual discussion. All it is now is preaching and empty rhetoric. Fix that and you'll have an actual argument instead of depending on a term you can't even clearly define.

What have I not defined? show me in our discussion where you asked me to define something and I didn't do it, that never happened nice try.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/4/2015 5:32:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.

I don't believe anyone said theists don't think. That actual complaint is that they choose to suspend critical thinking about their religion but apply it to most everything else. Again, special pleading.

Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.

It seems that you are simply trying to justify your faith by claiming things you cannot support in any meaningful way. Philosophy and personal experience do not provide any evidential support for the existence of any supernatural deity, including yours. If you have something better to make your point,

This was pathetic and I'd rather not waste anymore space on topics that are elsewhere, thanks for supporting everything I said, let me know if you ever what to break that mold.

In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.

If you had any evidence to support your claims it would be an actual discussion. All it is now is preaching and empty rhetoric. Fix that and you'll have an actual argument instead of depending on a term you can't even clearly define.

What have I not defined? show me in our discussion where you asked me to define something and I didn't do it, that never happened nice try.

You and I have had exchanges and you and others have had exchanges where you have been asked over and over again to define 'spiritual' and how you determined that the 'spiritual' exists. You've never been able to answer either of those questions with any facts, just bare assertions. If I'm wrong, go ahead and answer them now.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/4/2015 5:46:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 5:32:18 PM, dhardage wrote:
That God is an absurd concept or extraordinary. I created a topic to show that is only a perception, that is not truth. If anything atheism throughout human history is extraordinary, this needs to be overturned and is based on nothing but a materialist perspective. The concept of God is a very easy concept to digest and is perfectly rational.

It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.


Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.



In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.

If you had any evidence to support your claims it would be an actual discussion. All it is now is preaching and empty rhetoric. Fix that and you'll have an actual argument instead of depending on a term you can't even clearly define.

What have I not defined? show me in our discussion where you asked me to define something and I didn't do it, that never happened nice try.

You and I have had exchanges and you and others have had exchanges where you have been asked over and over again to define 'spiritual' and how you determined that the 'spiritual' exists. You've never been able to answer either of those questions with any facts, just bare assertions. If I'm wrong, go ahead and answer them now.

First of all stop listening to DJR, I ignore the idiot for good reasons. He keeps running around behind me saying that crap over and over and it is a lie, most of the time I ignore him because I have to repeat the same things over.
Secondly show me where this has happened between me and you, it has not.

Read post number 23 I think it is for a basic definition of spiritual, all it really means is lifestyle through application, simple stuff.
I know the spiritual exists because I've witnessed it, because I apply it to my life and observe. I've told you that before, that is what this thread explains. I know spirits exists because I've seen them, what else what I need to show me spirits exist? If there was nothing to ride home about I wouldn't be here, I'd rather do something more productive but I know better.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/4/2015 6:14:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is not rational in any sense of the word. It demands belief in an entity that no one can see, hear, touch, smell, or detect and attempts to denigrate and demonize those who demand the same level of evidence for it that one would expect for someone claiming another such entity existed.

Again, all straw man and I've been telling you the opposite this whole time, you don't listen and don't want to. Your connection to spiritual things is through the spirit! not through what some scientist has discovered but through personal witness that is what this topic was intended for, did you miss all of that??

Spiritual experiences are mental illness and NDE's don't express any truth. I think besides my own experiences there are good indications to support the opposite. Mental health and stability are key factors in spirituality and NDE's are very coherent and there is continuity there.

They are all personal and untestable experiences and cannot be considered hard evidence since they are not subject to falsification. The only truth that can be derived from them is that someone had them, not that anything they observed or learned from them is factual or valid.

Never said it was hard evidence did I? Go read what I actually said.

:Considering the nature of spiritual discussion and topics there should be more flexibility.

One needn't be 'psycho' or mentally ill to have a personal experience. That does not make them any more valid as evidence.

I never expected you to accept that as evidence, I said accept them as testimony (which can be a form of evidence) consider it and remain flexible, which was my point. Read what I write.

The misconception and ignorance surrounding the concept of faith. Faith is continually attacked as a strawman, it is probably one of the most misunderstood elements in Christianity.

Faith as it relates to Christianity demands belief in and obedience to an entity that cannot be evidenced in any meaningful way and forbids questioning that belief. Nothing misunderstood there.

As I said, thanks for making my point.


Christian Denominations- Atheists like to ride this topic to the grave, the fact that there are so many types and choices but this should be obvious that this would happen as there are varying people and types, this has no bearing on scripture.

Actually, it does. If the message of the Gospels were so perfectly clear as they should be from an omnipotent and omniscient being, there would be no disagreement. If such a being existed and wanted a specific message to be heard, why not just make us all hear it at the same time? You have conceded that scripture is interpreted based on the individual and not an actual divine message in your own statement.

Humans disagree and to say they shouldn't is absolutely dumb, completely. Fellowship is a personal element and choice.

There are four Gospels and a handful of epistles, denominations are becoming an irrelevant topic. I understand the other side of this, but I don't agree with the conclusions.

That's your privilege.



That is nothing more than special pleading, claiming that your deity is somehow beyond the material universe yet has created it and has had direct effect on it a number of times. Actions beget results and those results should be visible but they are not.

It's called theistic beliefs not special pleading lol.
And I explained why they are not, you can't see with your telescope a spiritual God creating, that is ignorant, the fact of the matter is, is that we see the results. God manipulates the elements and puts them in motion and we observe them. I'm not ignoring anything at all, I'm acknowledging it.


Theists don't think- of course, there are idiots in every group but not only in theism. Now it's generally accepted this is true in atheism because of dogma and propaganda, I need not say how ridiculous this is and if were true there would be nothing to discuss.


Thanks for proving my point again. This is believing lies.

Theists are indoctrinated - of course indoctrination is a real thing, but way overemphasized and from what I am seeing here and elsewhere is that it is assumed that a theist is indoctrinated. That they have somehow been brainwashed and they are unable to arrive at their own conclusions. This is accepted as truth and very unfortunate.

Having been 'indoctrinated' by Sunday School and church services as a child, I can reject your assertion firsthand. Were my parents a bit more devout themselves, I might still be a believer. Indoctrination occurs daily, hourly sometimes.

Yet you are an atheist.



In other words, if I don't accept everything you say at face value and simply agree, you disregard every argument or comment and stick in that meaningless word 'spiritual' over and over. About what I expected. Denial and dodging. Good day, sir.

In other words you want to cling to all your straw men and incorrect ideas that atheism has been feeding you, then good day to you because apparently someone who actually is a Christian well.... all my thoughts are swept under the rug and your atheistic views take precedence, as always.

If you had any evidence to support your claims it would be an actual discussion. All it is now is preaching and empty rhetoric. Fix that and you'll have an actual argument instead of depending on a term you can't even clearly define.

What have I not defined? show me in our discussion where you asked me to define something and I didn't do it, that never happened nice try.

You and I have had exchanges and you and others have had exchanges where you have been asked over and over again to define 'spiritual' and how you determined that the 'spiritual' exists. You've never been able to answer either of those questions with any facts, just bare assertions. If I'm wrong, go ahead and answer them now.

First of all stop listening to DJR, I ignore the idiot for good reasons. He keeps running around behind me saying that crap over and over and it is a lie, most of the time I ignore him because I have to repeat the same things over.
Secondly show me where this has happened between me and you, it has not.

Read post number 23 I think it is for a basic definition of spiritual, all it really means is lifestyle through application, simple stuff.

Meaningless word salad. That could just as easily describe fitness. Another non-answer.

I know the spiritual exists because I've witnessed it, because I apply it to my life and observe. I've told you that before, that is what this thread explains. I know spirits exists because I've seen them, what else what I need to show me spirits exist? If there was nothing

People have 'seen' Bigfoot and aliens too, but until there's more than just their word, I won't accept that as valid evidence either.