Total Posts:217|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

A huge jw embarassment, Beth Sarim...

graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Despite the failures of 1914 and 1925, Rutherford continued stating that the earthly resurrection was about to happen. In 1929, he authorised the purchase of a house for Abraham and other resurrected Princes to live in.

"At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." Salvation (1939) p.311

the home was supposed to be for the returning princes of the bible to earth...

it was quietly sold off sometime later...

Was God trying to make his only representatives on earth look stupid or does the light keep getting lighter....
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2015 1:39:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The JW garbage is crazy and then some. It is sad that JWs are so gullible they fall for it!
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2015 7:43:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:

It is only really embarrassing to see people still bring it up.

"Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment during 1918-1919 because of his faithfulness to Jehovah. Thereafter he had only one good lung. It was virtually impossible for him to remain in Brooklyn, New York, during the winter and still carry out his duties as the Society's president. In the 1920's he went to San Diego under a doctor's treatment. The climate there was exceptionally good and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible in San Diego. That is what Rutherford did ultimately.

In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use. It was not built at the expense of the Watch Tower Society. Concerning this property, the 1939 book Salvation stated: 'At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim.'" (1975 Year Book, p. 194.)

"The Hebrew words 'Beth Sarim' mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be for ever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth. .... and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." (Salvation, p.311.)

In regards to why it was sold:
"It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God's Word of promise." (Watchtower, December 15, 1947.)
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2015 8:22:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 7:43:17 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:

It is only really embarrassing to see people still bring it up.

"Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment during 1918-1919 because of his faithfulness to Jehovah. Thereafter he had only one good lung. It was virtually impossible for him to remain in Brooklyn, New York, during the winter and still carry out his duties as the Society's president. In the 1920's he went to San Diego under a doctor's treatment. The climate there was exceptionally good and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible in San Diego. That is what Rutherford did ultimately.

In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use. It was not built at the expense of the Watch Tower Society. Concerning this property, the 1939 book Salvation stated: 'At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim.'" (1975 Year Book, p. 194.)

"The Hebrew words 'Beth Sarim' mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be for ever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth. .... and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." (Salvation, p.311.)

In regards to why it was sold:
"It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God's Word of promise." (Watchtower, December 15, 1947.)

why was the building deeded to the princes of the bible for their return, did God tell them to buy it for them...

when did God say to sell it ...

Again as the only true source of gods instruction on the planet the jw's sure made so terrible decisions...
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2015 8:32:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 8:22:58 PM, graceofgod wrote:

why was the building deeded to the princes of the bible for their return, did God tell them to buy it for them...
They felt that those worthies would be resurrected soon. It thus serves as a testament to the belief in the resurrection.

when did God say to sell it ...
Well, it was sold in 1948.

Again as the only true source of gods instruction on the planet the jw's sure made so terrible decisions...
Mistakes are going to be made. They have readily admitted this from day one. You would have to selectively reading to miss it.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:54:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 7:43:17 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:

It is only really embarrassing to see people still bring it up.

"Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment during 1918-1919 because of his faithfulness to Jehovah. Thereafter he had only one good lung. It was virtually impossible for him to remain in Brooklyn, New York, during the winter and still carry out his duties as the Society's president. In the 1920's he went to San Diego under a doctor's treatment. The climate there was exceptionally good and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible in San Diego. That is what Rutherford did ultimately.

In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use. It was not built at the expense of the Watch Tower Society. Concerning this property, the 1939 book Salvation stated: 'At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim.'" (1975 Year Book, p. 194.)

"The Hebrew words 'Beth Sarim' mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be for ever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth. .... and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." (Salvation, p.311.)

In regards to why it was sold:
"It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God's Word of promise." (Watchtower, December 15, 1947.)
The really funny thing is that there are people who believe this twaddle.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:59:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jehovians don't know embarrassment, if they did they would have crawled back under their rock a century ago when 1914 was such an abject failure of prophecy.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 12:49:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:59:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Jehovians don't know embarrassment, if they did they would have crawled back under their rock a century ago when 1914 was such an abject failure of prophecy.

that's a good point..
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 12:50:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 8:32:18 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 8:22:58 PM, graceofgod wrote:

why was the building deeded to the princes of the bible for their return, did God tell them to buy it for them...
They felt that those worthies would be resurrected soon. It thus serves as a testament to the belief in the resurrection.

when did God say to sell it ...
Well, it was sold in 1948.

Again as the only true source of gods instruction on the planet the jw's sure made so terrible decisions...
Mistakes are going to be made. They have readily admitted this from day one. You would have to selectively reading to miss it.

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:22:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
Despite the failures of 1914 and 1925, Rutherford continued stating that the earthly resurrection was about to happen. In 1929, he authorised the purchase of a house for Abraham and other resurrected Princes to live in.

"At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." Salvation (1939) p.311

the home was supposed to be for the returning princes of the bible to earth...

it was quietly sold off sometime later...

Was God trying to make his only representatives on earth look stupid or does the light keep getting lighter....

Yes, it was indeed a huge embarrassment, but so what? They still had things to learn.

If you realise how embarrassed by their errors back then, can you imagine how embarrassed you are going to be when you realise you just how wrong you are?

Does the fact that they have made errors make you lose faith in them?

If so how can you claim faith in any of Jehovah's messengers, including his own son, when scripture clearly reveals that they all made mistakes?

Human's make mistakes, simple as, and Jehovah either corrects them in his own time or his own way, or lets history do that for him, though that is much rarer.

Interestingly most of their critics, including the one who started this thread, are making far more heinous mistakes in their teachings, as scripture reveals simply and clearly.

Of course that is why the Governing Body do not ask any to trust them, but instead to trust Jehovah to guide them as and when he sees fit.

If Jehovah allows an error to persist because it is not his time to reveal the truth of it, that is his choice. After all, it took him almost 4,000 years to reveal the truth about the Messiah.

Consider the case of Abraham and Sarah.

Abraham was promised a son, through Sarah, who would become a mighty nation.

Unfortunately for us, Abraham's faith was not quite strong enough, nor was that of his wife, so she persuaded Abraham to father a son by her slave girl Hagar, and he agreed to do so.

Did jehovah step in and correct his servant Abraham and prevent him making such a mistake?

No he did not. He allowed Abraham to go ahead, make the mistake and learn from it.

That is precisely what Jehovah has done with his modern day servants, the JWs. He let them make their mistakes, and learn from the resulting embarrassment.

Back to Abraham though.

Did he learn from his mistake?

Eventually.

Why was it unfortunate for us that he made the mistake?

Well, the current result of that error is IS, since all the Islamic nations are descendants of Abraham's illegitimate son Ishmael.

However the JW are the only group on this planet that adhere to all the demands made of Christians, including unity such as that between Jehovah and his son.

Were those who accepted what the Brothers at that time taught gullible as has been suggested.

I say no, though I accept history has made it appear that way, but appearances are all too often deceptive.

I wonder just how gullible all their critics will feel when they realise how comprehensively they have been fooled by the lies, and partial truths, they have been told? That goes for all those not following the true path to life to which the JWs direct all who will listen. Matthew 7:13-14.

I don't envy them.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:33:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 12:50:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/6/2015 8:32:18 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 8:22:58 PM, graceofgod wrote:

why was the building deeded to the princes of the bible for their return, did God tell them to buy it for them...
They felt that those worthies would be resurrected soon. It thus serves as a testament to the belief in the resurrection.

when did God say to sell it ...
Well, it was sold in 1948.

Again as the only true source of gods instruction on the planet the jw's sure made so terrible decisions...
Mistakes are going to be made. They have readily admitted this from day one. You would have to selectively reading to miss it.

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

They are human, of course they are going to make mistakes.

The important thing is that they learn from them.

Can you point to one holy man in scripture who never made one mistake?

Of course you can't, because even Jesus was shown to have made two errors.

As scripture says Psalm 130:3American Standard Version (ASV)

3 If thou, Jehovah, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?

If Jehovah held our mistakes against us, none of us would stand a chance.

That is why the JWs say 'don't trust us not to make mistakes, trust Jehovah to correct any we do make in his own due time'. He always has, always will, even if, as with Abraham, he lets history teach us our errors.

They know the make errors, which is why their efforts are always to improve, even in their translation of scripture, they are still not convinced they have it 100% right.

Like I always say, no, the JWs most likely don't have all the truth yet, but they certainly have immeasurably more of it than anyone else.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:47:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:22:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
Despite the failures of 1914 and 1925, Rutherford continued stating that the earthly resurrection was about to happen. In 1929, he authorised the purchase of a house for Abraham and other resurrected Princes to live in.

"At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." Salvation (1939) p.311

the home was supposed to be for the returning princes of the bible to earth...

it was quietly sold off sometime later...

Was God trying to make his only representatives on earth look stupid or does the light keep getting lighter....

Yes, it was indeed a huge embarrassment, but so what? They still had things to learn.
Actually according to you and them everything they publish is the word of god, they have nothing to learn since they only write what god says.
If you realise how embarrassed by their errors back then, can you imagine how embarrassed you are going to be when you realise you just how wrong you are?
But of course it's not just your god who is embarrassed by the by his mistakes, since the mistakes weren't jehovian.
Does the fact that they have made errors make you lose faith in them?

If so how can you claim faith in any of Jehovah's messengers, including his own son, when scripture clearly reveals that they all made mistakes?

Human's make mistakes, simple as, and Jehovah either corrects them in his own time or his own way, or lets history do that for him, though that is much rarer.
Humans are not involved in the errors that jehovians have made, that is the doctrine of the jehovians, too bad hey?
Interestingly most of their critics, including the one who started this thread, are making far more heinous mistakes in their teachings, as scripture reveals simply and clearly.
Show where scripture claims that armageddon will occur in 1914 or show the mistakes more heinous that you claim.
Of course that is why the Governing Body do not ask any to trust them, but instead to trust Jehovah to guide them as and when he sees fit.
Of course not. They DEMAND that their deluded followers follow them, no question allowed.
If Jehovah allows an error to persist because it is not his time to reveal the truth of it, that is his choice.
Making your god a LIAR, but the likes of you are incapable of understanding the natural conclusion to the fantasies you propose.
After all, it took him almost 4,000 years to reveal the truth about the Messiah.
According to you he revealed it in the garden that never existed. You need to catch up with the crap you teach.
Consider the case of Abraham and Sarah.
Or Mickey and Minnie Mouse.
Abraham was promised a son, through Sarah, who would become a mighty nation.
Old Abe is a fictional character.
Unfortunately for us, Abraham's faith was not quite strong enough, nor was that of his wife, so she persuaded Abraham to father a son by her slave girl Hagar, and he agreed to do so.

<snipped for stupidity>
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 3:55:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 12:50:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

Yes, the earthly organization has the human element. No human is infallible today.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 4:51:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2015 7:43:17 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:

It is only really embarrassing to see people still bring it up.

"Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment during 1918-1919 because of his faithfulness to Jehovah. Thereafter he had only one good lung. It was virtually impossible for him to remain in Brooklyn, New York, during the winter and still carry out his duties as the Society's president. In the 1920's he went to San Diego under a doctor's treatment. The climate there was exceptionally good and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible in San Diego. That is what Rutherford did ultimately.

In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use. It was not built at the expense of the Watch Tower Society. Concerning this property, the 1939 book Salvation stated: 'At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim.'" (1975 Year Book, p. 194.)

I'm wondering if you have a statement from the WatchTower to the effect that Beth Sarim was being constructed due to Rutherford's health.

You cite, "A direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use." But this is from 1975. Do you have any evidence of such a thing from the 1920's or early 1930's?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 5:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:22:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/6/2015 12:25:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
Despite the failures of 1914 and 1925, Rutherford continued stating that the earthly resurrection was about to happen. In 1929, he authorised the purchase of a house for Abraham and other resurrected Princes to live in.

"At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." Salvation (1939) p.311

the home was supposed to be for the returning princes of the bible to earth...

it was quietly sold off sometime later...

Was God trying to make his only representatives on earth look stupid or does the light keep getting lighter....

Yes, it was indeed a huge embarrassment, but so what? They still had things to learn.

If you realise how embarrassed by their errors back then, can you imagine how embarrassed you are going to be when you realise you just how wrong you are?

Does the fact that they have made errors make you lose faith in them?

If so how can you claim faith in any of Jehovah's messengers, including his own son, when scripture clearly reveals that they all made mistakes?

Human's make mistakes, simple as, and Jehovah either corrects them in his own time or his own way, or lets history do that for him, though that is much rarer.

Interestingly most of their critics, including the one who started this thread, are making far more heinous mistakes in their teachings, as scripture reveals simply and clearly.

Of course that is why the Governing Body do not ask any to trust them, but instead to trust Jehovah to guide them as and when he sees fit.

If Jehovah allows an error to persist because it is not his time to reveal the truth of it, that is his choice. After all, it took him almost 4,000 years to reveal the truth about the Messiah.

Consider the case of Abraham and Sarah.

Abraham was promised a son, through Sarah, who would become a mighty nation.

Unfortunately for us, Abraham's faith was not quite strong enough, nor was that of his wife, so she persuaded Abraham to father a son by her slave girl Hagar, and he agreed to do so.

Did jehovah step in and correct his servant Abraham and prevent him making such a mistake?

No he did not. He allowed Abraham to go ahead, make the mistake and learn from it.

That is precisely what Jehovah has done with his modern day servants, the JWs. He let them make their mistakes, and learn from the resulting embarrassment.

Back to Abraham though.

Did he learn from his mistake?

Eventually.

Why was it unfortunate for us that he made the mistake?

Well, the current result of that error is IS, since all the Islamic nations are descendants of Abraham's illegitimate son Ishmael.

However the JW are the only group on this planet that adhere to all the demands made of Christians, including unity such as that between Jehovah and his son.

Were those who accepted what the Brothers at that time taught gullible as has been suggested.

I say no, though I accept history has made it appear that way, but appearances are all too often deceptive.

I wonder just how gullible all their critics will feel when they realise how comprehensively they have been fooled by the lies, and partial truths, they have been told? That goes for all those not following the true path to life to which the JWs direct all who will listen. Matthew 7:13-14.

I don't envy them.

by all their mistakes they have made it quite clear that they are not being spoken to by God....
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 5:23:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:55:25 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/7/2015 12:50:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

Yes, the earthly organization has the human element. No human is infallible today.

nice excuse, the truth is if they speak for God on earth, there should be no such mistakes..

perhaps God was just taking the mickey out of the organisation...??
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:04:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:51:04 PM, annanicole wrote:

I'm wondering if you have a statement from the WatchTower to the effect that Beth Sarim was being constructed due to Rutherford's health.

You cite, "A direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use." But this is from 1975. Do you have any evidence of such a thing from the 1920's or early 1930's?
Yes, I do have a statement from 1931 (I hand typed this, so ignore and mistakes):
"Judge Rutherford, president of the Watch Towerr Society, is one of the hardest-worked men in the world. Anybody can be a Christian in peace-time, but Judge Rutherford was one of the wartime Christians; and, for daring so to be, went to Atlanta Penitentiary under four sentences of twenty years each.

When he emerged he was in poor physical condition, and even now has the use of but one lung. Since his return from Atlanta, prudence and good common sense dictated that, working as hard as he constantly works, he should have the benefit of the most equable winter climate to be found. It is a matter of common knowledge among meteorologists that San Diego, California, is as near perfection for a winter climate as it is possible to get. About a quarter of a million people besides meteorologists have made the same discovery and make the city their winter
home.

For years after he emerged from prison, Judge Rutherford went to San Diego to work during the winter months, renting such quarters as could be secured. His physician, Dr. A. G, Eckols, of San Diego, urged him to make the city his permanent winter home; and in the Iatter part of the year 1929 some brethren, out of their own personal funds, arranged for the erection of Beth-Sarim, "the house of the princes," of which several illustrations appear in this issue.

Before Judge Rutherford would accept and use the home, he insisted upon writing the deed that it shall forever be held in trust by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society for the use of the Lord's work in the earth, with the expectation that in due time Abraham, Melchisedec, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah, or some others of the patriarchs or prophets of olden times will appear and will be glad to use this home which has been prepared for one or more of them in the western edge of the new world." (The Messenger, 1931, p. 6, 8.)
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:04:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 5:23:57 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

Yes, the earthly organization has the human element. No human is infallible today.

nice excuse, the truth is if they speak for God on earth, there should be no such mistakes..
Yeah, because the apostles did not have false expectations. Oh wait, they did! Luke 19:11 reads:
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly."

However, the Witnesses have not made the mistake of ceasing to be watchmen. Consider Matthew 24:42:
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:21:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:04:40 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/7/2015 4:51:04 PM, annanicole wrote:

I'm wondering if you have a statement from the WatchTower to the effect that Beth Sarim was being constructed due to Rutherford's health.

You cite, "A direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use." But this is from 1975. Do you have any evidence of such a thing from the 1920's or early 1930's?
Yes, I do have a statement from 1931 (I hand typed this, so ignore and mistakes):
"Judge Rutherford, president of the Watch Towerr Society, is one of the hardest-worked men in the world. Anybody can be a Christian in peace-time, but Judge Rutherford was one of the wartime Christians; and, for daring so to be, went to Atlanta Penitentiary under four sentences of twenty years each.

When he emerged he was in poor physical condition, and even now has the use of but one lung. Since his return from Atlanta, prudence and good common sense dictated that, working as hard as he constantly works, he should have the benefit of the most equable winter climate to be found. It is a matter of common knowledge among meteorologists that San Diego, California, is as near perfection for a winter climate as it is possible to get. About a quarter of a million people besides meteorologists have made the same discovery and make the city their winter
home.

For years after he emerged from prison, Judge Rutherford went to San Diego to work during the winter months, renting such quarters as could be secured. His physician, Dr. A. G, Eckols, of San Diego, urged him to make the city his permanent winter home; and in the Iatter part of the year 1929 some brethren, out of their own personal funds, arranged for the erection of Beth-Sarim, "the house of the princes," of which several illustrations appear in this issue.

Before Judge Rutherford would accept and use the home, he insisted upon writing the deed that it shall forever be held in trust by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society for the use of the Lord's work in the earth, with the expectation that in due time Abraham, Melchisedec, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah, or some others of the patriarchs or prophets of olden times will appear and will be glad to use this home which has been prepared for one or more of them in the western edge of the new world." (The Messenger, 1931, p. 6, 8.)

Hmmmm. That's interesting. Judge Rutherford needed the home for "health reasons" - but insisted that the deed be held by the WatchTower for Abraham, Moses, David, etc so they could use it when they showed up on the scene. But after Judge Rutherford died, the WatchTower decided that Abraham, Moses, and David didn't really need a place to stay - so they sold it.

Some of that sounds like one of those WatchTower stories-after-the-fact.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:27:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:21:56 PM, annanicole wrote:

Hmmmm. That's interesting. Judge Rutherford needed the home for "health reasons" - but insisted that the deed be held by the WatchTower for Abraham, Moses, David, etc so they could use it when they showed up on the scene. But after Judge Rutherford died, the WatchTower decided that Abraham, Moses, and David didn't really need a place to stay - so they sold it.

Some of that sounds like one of those WatchTower stories-after-the-fact.
Are you as surprised as I am that I found a 1931 publication dealing with the topic? I was thoroughly surprised! In regards to the change in thinking, it is quite clear. It served as, and still does serve as, a monument to the faith of those at that time. Now it is time to shake off the dirt and step up.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:45:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:04:56 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/7/2015 5:23:57 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

Yes, the earthly organization has the human element. No human is infallible today.

nice excuse, the truth is if they speak for God on earth, there should be no such mistakes..
Yeah, because the apostles did not have false expectations. Oh wait, they did! Luke 19:11 reads:
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly."

However, the Witnesses have not made the mistake of ceasing to be watchmen. Consider Matthew 24:42:
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

lol is that the best you can do, don't you understand the difference between misunderstanding and saying "God said"...

so all the guesses at the end of the world made by the jw's...

according to the jw's he is now coming soon, so they have finally learnt not to keep guessing because it makes the organisation look stupid...lol
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 9:54:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:45:38 PM, graceofgod wrote:

nice excuse, the truth is if they speak for God on earth, there should be no such mistakes..
Yeah, because the apostles did not have false expectations. Oh wait, they did! Luke 19:11 reads:
"While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly."

However, the Witnesses have not made the mistake of ceasing to be watchmen. Consider Matthew 24:42:
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

lol is that the best you can do, don't you understand the difference between misunderstanding and saying "God said"...
Who is saying "God said"? The Watchtower has never claimed that God told them a prediction.

"[the fact that some have Jehovah's spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (Watchtower, May 15, 1947, page 157.)

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" (Watchtower, February 15, 1981, page 19.)

so all the guesses at the end of the world made by the jw's...

according to the jw's he is now coming soon, so they have finally learnt not to keep guessing because it makes the organisation look stupid...lol
There is nothing wrong with making an honest prediction. The Watchtower admits the mistakes it makes, for example:
"There were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year (1975) was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated." (Watchtower, 1980 March 15, p.17, par. 5)
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 10:06:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:27:53 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/7/2015 9:21:56 PM, annanicole wrote:

Hmmmm. That's interesting. Judge Rutherford needed the home for "health reasons" - but insisted that the deed be held by the WatchTower for Abraham, Moses, David, etc so they could use it when they showed up on the scene. But after Judge Rutherford died, the WatchTower decided that Abraham, Moses, and David didn't really need a place to stay - so they sold it.

Some of that sounds like one of those WatchTower stories-after-the-fact.

Are you as surprised as I am that I found a 1931 publication dealing with the topic?

Not really. I knew the WatchTower and Rutherford received quite a bit of criticism at the time, even from fellow Bible Students. I will concede, however, that a 1931 story surprised me just a tad, because the WatchTower usually waits a little longer before offering its revisionist explanations.

I was thoroughly surprised! In regards to the change in thinking, it is quite clear.

What change?

It served as, and still does serve as, a monument to the faith of those at that time. Now it is time to shake off the dirt and step up.

Beth Sarim serves as a monument to the gullible nature of Bible Students back then. Old Rutherford had just screwed up monumentally in the early- to mid-1920's - and they rewarded him with a West Coast mansion and a V-16 Cadillac. Ever humble, Rutherford insisted the WatchTower hold the deed perpetually in the name of long-dead patriarchs.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 10:10:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 12:50:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/6/2015 8:32:18 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/6/2015 8:22:58 PM, graceofgod wrote:

why was the building deeded to the princes of the bible for their return, did God tell them to buy it for them...
They felt that those worthies would be resurrected soon. It thus serves as a testament to the belief in the resurrection.

when did God say to sell it ...
Well, it was sold in 1948.

Again as the only true source of gods instruction on the planet the jw's sure made so terrible decisions...
Mistakes are going to be made. They have readily admitted this from day one. You would have to selectively reading to miss it.

Hmm if the jw's truly are the only organisation that God chooses to communicate through, should any mistakes be made??

Of course since their father is the same liar as the father of the Pharisees.

The following scripture refers and applies to all religious hypocrites...
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 10:17:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 10:06:15 PM, annanicole wrote:

Are you as surprised as I am that I found a 1931 publication dealing with the topic?

Not really. I knew the WatchTower and Rutherford received quite a bit of criticism at the time, even from fellow Bible Students. I will concede, however, that a 1931 story surprised me just a tad, because the WatchTower usually waits a little longer before offering its revisionist explanations.
They had critics because there were rogue men who were given the boot. Those men went around to the congregations of students badmouthing Rutherford. However, Rutherford got a majority vote fair and square.

I find it funny that you give me a challenge of finding a publication regarding the reason for Beth Sarim that had to be published in the 1920s-early 1930s. I do that and you still spin it off as "revisionist explanations." Don't call me an inspired prophet, but I predicted that.

I was thoroughly surprised! In regards to the change in thinking, it is quite clear.

What change?
Read my next line.

It served as, and still does serve as, a monument to the faith of those at that time. Now it is time to shake off the dirt and step up.

Beth Sarim serves as a monument to the gullible nature of Bible Students back then. Old Rutherford had just screwed up monumentally in the early- to mid-1920's - and they rewarded him with a West Coast mansion and a V-16 Cadillac. Ever humble, Rutherford insisted the WatchTower hold the deed perpetually in the name of long-dead patriarchs.
Some brothers donated him the funds for the construction and the cars. No money from the Watchtower Society was used for those expenses. Rutherford made mistakes and so has every single Jehovah's Witness. So has every single person today.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/7/2015 10:25:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It simply means the JW were informed the patriarchs (Abraham, Moses, David) are not coming to Califonia because the state is too late liberal and the drought they created is going to be around for a lot longer. Who should want to entertain such ingrates?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2015 12:52:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 10:17:12 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/7/2015 10:06:15 PM, annanicole wrote:

Are you as surprised as I am that I found a 1931 publication dealing with the topic?

Not really. I knew the WatchTower and Rutherford received quite a bit of criticism at the time, even from fellow Bible Students. I will concede, however, that a 1931 story surprised me just a tad, because the WatchTower usually waits a little longer before offering its revisionist explanations.
They had critics because there were rogue men who were given the boot. Those men went around to the congregations of students badmouthing Rutherford. However, Rutherford got a majority vote fair and square.

I find it funny that you give me a challenge of finding a publication regarding the reason for Beth Sarim that had to be published in the 1920s-early 1930s. I do that and you still spin it off as "revisionist explanations." Don't call me an inspired prophet, but I predicted that.

I was thoroughly surprised! In regards to the change in thinking, it is quite clear.

What change?
Read my next line.

It served as, and still does serve as, a monument to the faith of those at that time. Now it is time to shake off the dirt and step up.

Beth Sarim serves as a monument to the gullible nature of Bible Students back then. Old Rutherford had just screwed up monumentally in the early- to mid-1920's - and they rewarded him with a West Coast mansion and a V-16 Cadillac. Ever humble, Rutherford insisted the WatchTower hold the deed perpetually in the name of long-dead patriarchs.
Some brothers donated him the funds for the construction and the cars.

The WatchTower would need to produce some evidence to that effect.

No money from the Watchtower Society was used for those expenses.

Again, the WatchTower would need to produce evidence of that.

Rutherford made mistakes and so has every single Jehovah's Witness. So has every single person today.

The WatchTower - not "private citizens" - made the claim that they were merely holding the property, house, and cars for David, Abraham, and the rest. I presume they've decided that ole David didn't really need a V16 Cadillac. It turns out that Rutherford drove it around while David and Abraham and Moses tarried.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2015 12:59:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 12:52:41 AM, annanicole wrote:

Some brothers donated him the funds for the construction and the cars.

The WatchTower would need to produce some evidence to that effect.
W.E. Van Amburgh, Secretary-Treasurer of the Watch Tower Society said:
"Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into the construction of the home in San Diego where Judge Rutherford does his winter work. It was the gift of friends. I did not know of the existence of the house until I read of it in The Golden Age. Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into either of the Cadillac cars used by Rutherford at San Diego and Brooklyn. They were the gift of friends."

Photocopy of letter:
http://pastor-russell.com...

No money from the Watchtower Society was used for those expenses.

Again, the WatchTower would need to produce evidence of that.

Rutherford made mistakes and so has every single Jehovah's Witness. So has every single person today.

The WatchTower - not "private citizens" - made the claim that they were merely holding the property, house, and cars for David, Abraham, and the rest. I presume they've decided that ole David didn't really need a V16 Cadillac. It turns out that Rutherford drove it around while David and Abraham and Moses tarried.
The cars were not apart of the belief. I encourage you to produce a document that states that. The cars were donated for use by Rutherford and other society members. You sure have a way of twisting facts. I wish I could say I admired it.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2015 1:21:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 12:59:01 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/8/2015 12:52:41 AM, annanicole wrote:

Some brothers donated him the funds for the construction and the cars.

The WatchTower would need to produce some evidence to that effect.
W.E. Van Amburgh, Secretary-Treasurer of the Watch Tower Society said:
"Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into the construction of the home in San Diego where Judge Rutherford does his winter work. It was the gift of friends. I did not know of the existence of the house until I read of it in The Golden Age. Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into either of the Cadillac cars used by Rutherford at San Diego and Brooklyn. They were the gift of friends."

Photocopy of letter:
http://pastor-russell.com...

No money from the Watchtower Society was used for those expenses.

Again, the WatchTower would need to produce evidence of that.

Rutherford made mistakes and so has every single Jehovah's Witness. So has every single person today.

The WatchTower - not "private citizens" - made the claim that they were merely holding the property, house, and cars for David, Abraham, and the rest. I presume they've decided that ole David didn't really need a V16 Cadillac. It turns out that Rutherford drove it around while David and Abraham and Moses tarried.
The cars were not apart of the belief. I encourage you to produce a document that states that. The cars were donated for use by Rutherford and other society members. You sure have a way of twisting facts. I wish I could say I admired it.

Can you produce a non-WatchTower document that gives evidence that the cars were "donations"?

Who donated them?
When was this donation made?
Who paid for them?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tstor
Posts: 1,467
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2015 1:40:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 1:21:06 AM, annanicole wrote:

Some brothers donated him the funds for the construction and the cars.

The WatchTower would need to produce some evidence to that effect.
W.E. Van Amburgh, Secretary-Treasurer of the Watch Tower Society said:
"Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into the construction of the home in San Diego where Judge Rutherford does his winter work. It was the gift of friends. I did not know of the existence of the house until I read of it in The Golden Age. Not one cent of the funds of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society went into either of the Cadillac cars used by Rutherford at San Diego and Brooklyn. They were the gift of friends."

Photocopy of letter:
http://pastor-russell.com...

No money from the Watchtower Society was used for those expenses.

Again, the WatchTower would need to produce evidence of that.

Rutherford made mistakes and so has every single Jehovah's Witness. So has every single person today.

The WatchTower - not "private citizens" - made the claim that they were merely holding the property, house, and cars for David, Abraham, and the rest. I presume they've decided that ole David didn't really need a V16 Cadillac. It turns out that Rutherford drove it around while David and Abraham and Moses tarried.
The cars were not apart of the belief. I encourage you to produce a document that states that. The cars were donated for use by Rutherford and other society members. You sure have a way of twisting facts. I wish I could say I admired it.

Can you produce a non-WatchTower document that gives evidence that the cars were "donations"?
To clarify, you stated:
"The WatchTower would need to produce some evidence to that effect."

You did not say that someone else had to. It is rather difficult to find documents regarding obscure events so long ago.

Who donated them?
Robert J. Martin donated the property. This was made known in the March 19, 1930 edition of The Golden Age. Specifically, pages 405-407. This publication also published a copy of the deed.

When was this donation made?
December 24, 1929

Who paid for them?
For what? I am not sure who donated the cars, as I am not able to find a record of it.

Publication:
http://ia700404.us.archive.org...
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)