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From Nothing, Nothing Comes

Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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12/7/2015 3:44:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
(Playing devil's advocate).

The universe could not have come from nothing unless you have a God.

As to why God can break this rule. Well, he is defined that way. :-)
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/7/2015 4:22:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?

When was the last time you tried to get out of this universe and what does the edge look like?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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12/7/2015 4:26:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:22:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?

When was the last time you tried to get out of this universe and what does the edge look like?

This is purely a conjecture; an idea. I have no proof, yet you would have no proof to prove me wrong either. Yes, i have brought the idea forward and it is my job to prove it... however, i concede bc i can't. Yet, i also know, deep down, you can't either and know this could be true among millions of other things. But... this does have some fun logic to it at least...
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/7/2015 4:30:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:26:33 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 4:22:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?

When was the last time you tried to get out of this universe and what does the edge look like?

This is purely a conjecture; an idea. I have no proof, yet you would have no proof to prove me wrong either. Yes, i have brought the idea forward and it is my job to prove it... however, i concede bc i can't. Yet, i also know, deep down, you can't either and know this could be true among millions of other things. But... this does have some fun logic to it at least...

It bears a striking resemblance to gods, ideas that can neither be proven nor disproven therefore just an idea.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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12/7/2015 4:52:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:30:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2015 4:26:33 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 4:22:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?

When was the last time you tried to get out of this universe and what does the edge look like?

This is purely a conjecture; an idea. I have no proof, yet you would have no proof to prove me wrong either. Yes, i have brought the idea forward and it is my job to prove it... however, i concede bc i can't. Yet, i also know, deep down, you can't either and know this could be true among millions of other things. But... this does have some fun logic to it at least...

It bears a striking resemblance to gods, ideas that can neither be proven nor disproven therefore just an idea.

Well, i guess it can get into the god realm but it doesn't have to. We can be travelling souls (i say that with no religious connotation) that go to other realities to live or experience what that universe has to offer. You wouldn't need a god(s) in that scenario.
janesix
Posts: 3,485
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12/7/2015 5:44:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A torus universe solves the problem. An appearance of a beginning as matter and energy leave the singularity. Conservstion of mass and energy. An eternal recycling. Also, no need for god.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/7/2015 6:11:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 5:44:00 AM, janesix wrote:
A torus universe solves the problem. An appearance of a beginning as matter and energy leave the singularity. Conservstion of mass and energy. An eternal recycling. Also, no need for god.

The universe itself is the "singularity" in a torus universe and cannot leave itself any better than the water cycle can leave itself as it recycles itself.
Think about the innumerable cycles of nature on Earth. Do any of them go through anything that could be perceived as a singularity or is every stage of the cycle in effect at all times with one stage constantly changing into another the same as tomorrow is always changing into today and today is always changing into yesterday in the eternal concept of time where you cannot find a definite point of beginning or end.

If we start with energy which cannot be created or destroyed but has always existed, we are never beginning with nothing. If we understand energy can manifest in innumerable visible material forms and CYCLES which are all recycled, it is not unreasonable to consider that those cycles may have always existed the same as energy has always existed.

It solves the problem of anything starting from nothing as well as the problem of some intelligent supernatural being creating all of it.
It also solves the problem of infinite regress due to understanding every stage of a cycle is always in effect and nothing came first or last but it is all energy in its different stages and its cycles have always been the same regarding the nature of the changes happening within them.

Call it speculation if you wish but that is my perception which is perfectly logical in my own mind and does not begin with "once upon a time there was nothing"

It begins with exactly what we have and simply recycles all of it eternally.

The only intelligent creative being known to man is mankind themselves and even then their intelligence is often questionable.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/7/2015 6:23:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:22:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:51:50 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

What is a universe? What if the end of our universe is a different universe? This second universe has the same laws of science we have but polar opposite. That is why we can't get out of this universe without dying. You would have to change your physical composition to enter the second universe... hence the edge of the universe is death. Life's a paradox huh?

When was the last time you tried to get out of this universe and what does the edge look like?

Apparently it looks like the skin on a balloon which many scientists attempt to convince us is expanding.

I prefer to question their comparisons of space, without an edge or boundaries, to the skin of a balloon which expands even though the space going into the balloon is not increasing space in general any place but simply displacing space from outside the balloon to the space inside the skin of the balloon.

It is impossible to determine if something that has no boundaries, no edge, no visible beginning or end is expanding at all. Therefore I suspect and suggest that any so called expansion is nothing but an illusion created by universal energy.

How? I don't know but I think it is far more likely than any real expansion of the universe.
Light obviously creates all kinds of illusions and there is a LOT of light in the universe.

The study of illusions created by various light sources ought to be part of cosmology.

.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/7/2015 6:44:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

I don't believe anything can be created out of nothing. But then, I don't share the popular Christian definition of 'omnipotence'.

I believe God created "the universe" the same way an artist creates a sculpture. The artist doesn't produce material out of nothing. He/she manipulates and organizes material that is available. He/she calls the end product a "creation". Same with God. He doesn't "create", He organizes and manipulates what's already there.

Just like scientists who are supremely more intelligent than I am, I can only guess about the origins of existence. My guess is that everything that is, has always been, and that it undergoes constant change. I'm also guessing that we don't know a tiny fraction of all there is to know, and until we do, the closest we can come to an absolute truth is little more than intelligent speculation, which, as history has often taught us, could be entirely wrong if there are essential factors in the equation that are yet to be discovered.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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12/7/2015 6:59:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

- The reason why the universe is as opposed to isn't, is referred to as 'God'. The reason why the universe came from nothing as opposed to not at all, is referred to as 'God'...
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bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/7/2015 8:17:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 6:59:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

- The reason why the universe is as opposed to isn't, is referred to as 'God'. The reason why the universe came from nothing as opposed to not at all, is referred to as 'God'...
By people who need that "explanation".
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/7/2015 9:19:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe?
More than that, Double_R, whose 'something from nothing' claim is being attacked?

It's not that of Physics, because modern Cosmology doesn't make this claim. The current accepted cosmological account begins with a dense ball of energy, and leaves unaddressed the question of its origin (there are multiple competing conjectures, just no way of experimentally distinguishing them.)

Moreover, can the claimant define what 'nothing' is, and offer an accurate, repeatable observation mechanism to recognise it? Can anyone ever identify a state in which 'nothing' existed and show how to independently confirm that this was so?

If not, then how can this nonempirical claim be one that science will ever make?

Isn't this claim instead an appeal to ignorance wrapped in a semantically vacuous straw-man that misrepresents both empiricism and modern Cosmology?

If so, then why should an ignorant, disingenuous failure of intellectual integrity be treated credibly?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/7/2015 2:24:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? - Double R

It's called Creatio-ex-Deo, If God was all there was before the universe then the universe obviously came out of God, Not nothing. Even the question you propose assumes it.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/7/2015 2:39:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I am sorry but the answer is so simple I am surprised you are dumb enough not to see it.

Everything in creation was made from Jehovah's own substance.

It is that simple

First he created a son.

Then they worked together to create other spirit beings, Angels.

After that they again worked together to create the physical realm, again using Jehovah's own substance, energy, to create matter.

From then on in it was simply a matter of changing the characteristics of the physical matter to make different chemicals and combining them to produce firstly the earth and stars, and then everything on it.

We already know that Jehovah is almost limitless energy.

We also know from science that everything in existence is made from matter, seeming compressed massively, hence the massive release of energy when the Atom is split.

God is absolutely necessary in the equation because had he not existed there would truly have been nothing for the universe to come about from.

Like you say, nothing comes from nothing, end of.


I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

There is no "before" God because Jehovah is unchanging and unmoving. He has never left his realm, because his realm is entirely a part of him.

Since Jehovah never changes, there was no time, since time needs something to measure, some change or movement.

The moment Jehovah created his only begotten son, time had something to measure since his son could change and also move, hence his ability eventually to come to earth to occupy the body of Jesus and become the Christ, or Messiah.

Why do so many, in other respects clever people, not see what is so clear and obvious?

Why do they always look for the complex reasons when in fact the truth is always very simple.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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12/7/2015 2:44:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 2:39:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I am sorry but the answer is so simple I am surprised you are dumb enough not to see it.

Everything in creation was made from Jehovah's own substance.

It is that simple

First he created a son.

Then they worked together to create other spirit beings, Angels.

After that they again worked together to create the physical realm, again using Jehovah's own substance, energy, to create matter.

From then on in it was simply a matter of changing the characteristics of the physical matter to make different chemicals and combining them to produce firstly the earth and stars, and then everything on it.

We already know that Jehovah is almost limitless energy.

We also know from science that everything in existence is made from matter, seeming compressed massively, hence the massive release of energy when the Atom is split.

God is absolutely necessary in the equation because had he not existed there would truly have been nothing for the universe to come about from.

Like you say, nothing comes from nothing, end of.



I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?


There is no "before" God because Jehovah is unchanging and unmoving. He has never left his realm, because his realm is entirely a part of him.

Since Jehovah never changes, there was no time, since time needs something to measure, some change or movement.

The moment Jehovah created his only begotten son, time had something to measure since his son could change and also move, hence his ability eventually to come to earth to occupy the body of Jesus and become the Christ, or Messiah.

Why do so many, in other respects clever people, not see what is so clear and obvious?

Why do they always look for the complex reasons when in fact the truth is always very simple.

The simple truth is that you spout the JW less than credible garbage!
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/7/2015 3:57:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing. If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

That"s a good point, so what you are saying is both you and theist believe that the universe came from nothing, correct? Well there maybe a flaw in that line of thinking. Since there was only God and it is presumed that God inhabits eternity. Then it"s possible that eternity existed before the universe. Also even if that isn"t really an issue, there is the Power of God who has the ability to make something from His will to see it be. Also known as in His Presence He speaks and then its fulfilled according to what He said, and He"s the One who makes that Judgement. So from the Christian view it is by the will of God expressed through His Word in His Presence do things that were not, come into existence. So the correct theist view should be that the universe was made from the power of God, and the atheist view is still from nothing. So your point just might not be a valid one.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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12/7/2015 4:51:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing.

No theists believe God created the Universe by his will.

If you believe that is the case then you do in fact believe the universe can come from nothing, so why is God needed in your explanation?

Because God X00; nothing.

I could also put it like this; Was there a universe before God created it? [I'll assume No]. If there was no universe before God created it then according to your belief there was at one point just God, then at a later point there was God and a universe. Clearly in this scenario the mysterious thing is not the fact that God is there in both cases, but that in one case there is no universe and in the next case there is a universe. To the theists advocating this argument, what explanation can you give for the "no universe" to "universe" transition that having God there makes sense out of?

Well we would have to understand what the actual nature of matter and energy is. God being infinite in nature enables Him to create infinitely without reduction of Himself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/7/2015 4:55:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
No theists believe God created the Universe by his will.
And his will is material therefore, so your god is spiritual with material parts. Why can't we detect them?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/8/2015 2:34:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 9:19:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe?
More than that, Double_R, whose 'something from nothing' claim is being attacked?

Are you seriously telling me you've never heard the phrase "The universe couldn't have come from nothing" in response to an atheist?

Isn't this claim instead an appeal to ignorance wrapped in a semantically vacuous straw-man that misrepresents both empiricism and modern Cosmology?

Yes.

If so, then why should an ignorant, disingenuous failure of intellectual integrity be treated credibly?

I don't consider pointing out the self refuting nature of an argument to be giving it credibility. And if you really want to know, it's something that literally just popped into my mind so I thought I'd have some fun exploring it. That's what a debate site is for right?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/8/2015 2:45:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 3:57:55 PM, DPMartin wrote:
That"s a good point, so what you are saying is both you and theist believe that the universe came from nothing, correct?

No. I don't offer any explanation for the universe in it's current state other than accepting the current findings of science as the best explanation available.

What I am doing here is taking what some theists assert "That the universe couldn't have come from nothing" and showing it to be self refuting. The theist in this example presents the universe coming into existence as a problem which they imply their belief solves. The point was to show just one of the many reasons it doesn't.

Well there maybe a flaw in that line of thinking. Since there was only God and it is presumed that God inhabits eternity. Then it"s possible that eternity existed before the universe. Also even if that isn"t really an issue, there is the Power of God who has the ability to make something from His will to see it be. Also known as in His Presence He speaks and then its fulfilled according to what He said, and He"s the One who makes that Judgement. So from the Christian view it is by the will of God expressed through His Word in His Presence do things that were not, come into existence. So the correct theist view should be that the universe was made from the power of God, and the atheist view is still from nothing. So your point just might not be a valid one.

If the universe was made from the power of God then the universe is simply a product of something that has always existed, and if the universe is a product of something that has always existed then the universe has always existed in some form. Correct?

So if the universe has always existed in some form, why do we need God? Doesn't adding God only serve to complicate our explanation by adding an unnecessary step?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/8/2015 2:47:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 4:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing.

No theists believe God created the Universe by his will.

What is the distinction between what you just said and "God created the universe from nothing"? I don't see it.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/8/2015 2:58:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 2:39:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is no "before" God because Jehovah is unchanging and unmoving. He has never left his realm, because his realm is entirely a part of him.

Since Jehovah never changes, there was no time, since time needs something to measure, some change or movement.

The moment Jehovah created his only begotten son,

Please explain to me how a "moment" works in a timeless realm.

And when you finish weaseling out of that one perhaps you can explain to me how an "unchanging" and "unmoving" being goes about creating something.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/8/2015 3:00:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 2:34:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/7/2015 9:19:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe?
More than that, Double_R, whose 'something from nothing' claim is being attacked?
Are you seriously telling me you've never heard the phrase "The universe couldn't have come from nothing" in response to an atheist?
I've certainly heard that. :) However, I'm saying that if an atheist hasn't made the claim, then arguing that "the universe couldn't have come from nothing" isn't an attack on atheism -- it's an attack on a strawman position imputed to but not necessarily held by secular thought.

Isn't this claim instead an appeal to ignorance wrapped in a semantically vacuous straw-man that misrepresents both empiricism and modern Cosmology?
Yes.
Indeed!

If so, then why should an ignorant, disingenuous failure of intellectual integrity be treated credibly?
I don't consider pointing out the self refuting nature of an argument to be giving it credibility. And if you really want to know, it's something that literally just popped into my mind so I thought I'd have some fun exploring it. That's what a debate site is for right?
I think there are valid but wrong ideas -- e.g. Elvis is alive.

I think there are also ideas that are not only invalid, but stupidly dishonest with it -- e.g. atheists have to believe that either the universe was either always around, or came from nothing.

In this case, I'd suggest that:
i) cosmogenesis has nothing at all to do with rejecting religious authority;
ii) it's not clear that 'where did the universe come from' is a legitimate question in the first place;
iii) even if it were, there's no obligation on anyone -- atheist or otherwise -- to answer it;
iv) unless you can say how you'd detect when there was nothing, it's a meaningless question to ask whether something might come from it;
v) the proposition is at best an appeal to some dubious intuitions and vague language; and
vi) even one could show that something did come from nothing, nobody could prove it happened by magic or divine intervention anyway.

That being so, an argument over whether you need magic/divine intervention to produce something from nothing is likely pointless: it's not sensible philosophically or scientifically; nor would it refute atheism or religion, nor advance insight into either.

That's not to pick on you, Double_R. It's just pointing out that some theological rhetoric is too stupidly dishonest to engage. :)
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/8/2015 3:18:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 3:00:24 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/8/2015 2:34:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
I don't consider pointing out the self refuting nature of an argument to be giving it credibility. And if you really want to know, it's something that literally just popped into my mind so I thought I'd have some fun exploring it. That's what a debate site is for right?
I think there are valid but wrong ideas -- e.g. Elvis is alive.

I think there are also ideas that are not only invalid, but stupidly dishonest with it -- e.g. atheists have to believe that either the universe was either always around, or came from nothing.

In this case, I'd suggest that:
i) cosmogenesis has nothing at all to do with rejecting religious authority;
ii) it's not clear that 'where did the universe come from' is a legitimate question in the first place;
iii) even if it were, there's no obligation on anyone -- atheist or otherwise -- to answer it;
iv) unless you can say how you'd detect when there was nothing, it's a meaningless question to ask whether something might come from it;
v) the proposition is at best an appeal to some dubious intuitions and vague language; and
vi) even one could show that something did come from nothing, nobody could prove it happened by magic or divine intervention anyway.

That being so, an argument over whether you need magic/divine intervention to produce something from nothing is likely pointless: it's not sensible philosophically or scientifically; nor would it refute atheism or religion, nor advance insight into either.

That's not to pick on you, Double_R. It's just pointing out that some theological rhetoric is too stupidly dishonest to engage. :)

I don't disagree with anything you just said, except that sometimes in order to have an intelligent discussion you have to bring yourself down to the level of the person you are conversing with in an attempt to bring them up. And Strangely, I find that defeating some of these arguments can be the most challenging because you don't even know where to start. I rather enjoy refuting an argument when my first thought after hearing it is: WTF? I guess that's why I still bother responding to scmike2.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/8/2015 3:23:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 3:18:17 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/8/2015 3:00:24 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
An argument over whether you need magic/divine intervention to produce something from nothing is likely pointless: it's not sensible philosophically or scientifically; nor would it refute atheism or religion, nor advance insight into either.

That's not to pick on you, Double_R. It's just pointing out that some theological rhetoric is too stupidly dishonest to engage. :)

Sometimes in order to have an intelligent discussion you have to bring yourself down to the level of the person you are conversing with in an attempt to bring them up.

I look forward to discovering those members silly enough to have this argument in the first place, yet smart enough to learn from it.

I encourage any member who thinks himself sufficiently silly -- yet not too silly -- to participate!
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
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12/8/2015 4:38:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Two simple responses a theist could give:

1. An ad hoc response would be to say that from nothing, nothing comes, unless God exists.

2. The universe was not created by God to emerge ex nihilo, rather it came 'from' God - therefore entirely defeating this objection, since God is not 'nothing'.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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12/8/2015 6:12:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2015 2:47:25 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/7/2015 4:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/7/2015 3:37:53 AM, Double_R wrote:
When theists criticize the atheist's worldview, one of the more common areas of attack are in regards to how atheists cannot account for the universe coming into existence. The basic assertion is "the universe couldn't have just come from nothing". While there are many problems with using this assertion in defense of a God belief I want to focus on one in particular, I will frame it like this...

If you believe it is not possible for the universe to come from nothing, then how did God create the universe? It after all is my understanding that theists believe God created the universe from nothing.

No theists believe God created the Universe by his will.

What is the distinction between what you just said and "God created the universe from nothing"? I don't see it.

God's will is not nothing - it is not matter, but it is not nothing either.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/8/2015 9:50:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2015 2:39:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Everything in creation was made from Jehovah's own substance.
And your has no substance it is spirit, ergo nothing.