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Myths and morals.

Skyangel
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12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
This thread is for discussing religious myths regarding the Jesus character, what the characters represent to you, the morals or lessons you glean from the stories and how they relate to the way people live today.

The Jesus character in the bible stories is one of my favourites.
One of the things he represents is Truth.
The stories about him portray the way Truth affects people, different ways that people perceive and react toward Truth.
Some believe it without question, some question it and some simply call it a lie and reject it without even considering the possibility of anything honest or truthful about it.

The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.
If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.

What do you readers glean from the stories?

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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12/10/2015 9:36:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
you can't say that!

where is your grace and compassion?

people can believe what ever they choose.

most choose to have someone or something else do their important choosing and that leaves them time to chase their daydreams so that they might ESCAPE whatever bothers and upsets them.

the problem with the worlds population is that most are not very intelligent in truthful reality,

so they just make believe and pretend that they are smart or will be at some future time when their miracles happen or their made up scientific theories become reality.

was I born "smarter" then most?

or did I mature and grow up in reality?

I know the correct answers and I also know the make believe and pretend reality answers as they are the most popular ones that are worshiped and sold to the many lazy daydreamers at large & at small.

Am I a myth or a morel?
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.

But for peoples of the time... I think the stories favour a reform toward Hellenstic Judaism [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and subsequently the creation of a pluralistic, monotheistic, imperial state faith.

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?
I don't believe either of those purposes required or saw a great adherence to truth.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/10/2015 10:28:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 9:36:55 PM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:
you can't say that!

Hi EE, I said nothing at all. I wrote it. Therefore I am innocent of all sayings. ;-)

where is your grace and compassion?

Hidden within me. Seek and you shall find.

people can believe what ever they choose.

I agree they can and they obviously do.

most choose to have someone or something else do their important choosing and that leaves them time to chase their daydreams so that they might ESCAPE whatever bothers and upsets them.

Those who feel trapped always seem to be looking for a way to escape from whatever makes them feel trapped.
They need someone to set them free from their trap since they have no clue how to set themselves free from the tangles in which they they have entangled themselves.

the problem with the worlds population is that most are not very intelligent in truthful reality,

I agree with that.
If most were intelligent they would not categorise people according to IQ levels or try to assign numbers to intelligence.

so they just make believe and pretend that they are smart or will be at some future time when their miracles happen or their made up scientific theories become reality.

It is hilarious to see the stupid point the fingers at the stupid while they imply they are not one of the stupid.

was I born "smarter" then most?

If you believe you were then you were.
According to your faith, be it unto you.

or did I mature and grow up in reality?

You did that as well. Genii also grow from childhood to adulthood in a physical sense and their mental maturity only increases and gets stronger as they practise using their mind and developing the intelligence which Mother Nature gave them.

I know the correct answers and I also know the make believe and pretend reality answers as they are the most popular ones that are worshiped and sold to the many lazy daydreamers at large & at small.

The correct answers tend to confuse most people due to seeming to be self contradictory. That seems to be why most people choose one side or the other as being true and correct in their opinion and personal choice.

Am I a myth or a morel?

You are a real legend.
Overly wonderful and then some and definitely a very tasty morel and morsel for those who enjoy food for thought.
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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12/10/2015 10:33:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
This thread is for discussing religious myths regarding the Jesus character, what the characters represent to you, the morals or lessons you glean from the stories and how they relate to the way people live today.

The Jesus character in the bible stories is one of my favourites.
One of the things he represents is Truth.
The stories about him portray the way Truth affects people, different ways that people perceive and react toward Truth.
Some believe it without question, some question it and some simply call it a lie and reject it without even considering the possibility of anything honest or truthful about it.

The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.
If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.

What do you readers glean from the stories?

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?

There is truth found in all religions, but mostly it is a mixed up mess. The best you can hope for is to find these truths from within.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.

Don't you think all readers are the intended audience of any writers?
In my opinion, If we are a reader of something that interests us, we are indeed one of the intended audience.
The stories which are written, facts or fictions, are intended to inform or entertain all readers. Some are interesting enough to do both at the same time.

Any myths or fairy tales manage to teach lessons and any intelligent reader can manage to glean lessons from the stories and apply them to humanity in general. Eg the story of red riding hood basically teaches people to be careful of strangers because they can be deceptive and pretend to be something they are not. It can apply to all generations for all time. I am sure any readers can compare the girl and the wolf to various people in reality.

I am sure you can manage to do it with the bible stories too if you try hard, even if you do choose to separate yourself from the rest of humanity and choose to believe there is no moral or lesson or principle in the bible stories which can possibly apply to you personally.

But for peoples of the time... I think the stories favour a reform toward Hellenstic Judaism [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and subsequently the creation of a pluralistic, monotheistic, imperial state faith.

Reform from what? The worship of many gods to the worship of only one God? Obviously that reform was unsuccessful since many gods are still worshipped around the world to this very day.

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?
I don't believe either of those purposes required or saw a great adherence to truth.

The worship of any gods at all does not require adherence to truth but requires adherence to self deception in the sense of convincing oneself that at least one invisible supernatural character must be real. Religious worship of any gods in the form of man or beast is pure idolatry which the bible itself condemns.

It seems very few religious fanatics want to face the truth that all invisible supernatural gods are mythical.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.
Don't you think all readers are the intended audience of any writers?
No, definitely not.

Sky, I've been a scientist, science communicator, educator, technical and business consultant, author and teacher of fiction-writing. All these roles have required written communication, and each affects my choice of topic, thesis, approach, organisation and choice of language.

I can well believe that the authors of the Bible wrote for disparate audiences including pre-Roman and Roman-occupied Jews, trading Greeks, and subsequently citizens of the Roman empire. I can also believe that these books were redacted and interpreted for audiences other than those for whom they were written.

But I have no reason to suppose that any of the authors or redactors could possibly understand the things I do, or appreciate the way I gather and evaluate information, or have any apprehension of my own concerns.

I think it is the height of ignorant folly to imagine that they were writing directly to anyone in this milieu, or the centuries preceding it. I believe that this folly, long accepted by Christians, has created untold harm and injury both to Christians, and to those parts of the non-Christian world they've conquered, ruled and administered in their paternalistic zeal.

In my opinion, If we are a reader of something that interests us, we are indeed one of the intended audience.
No, that conflates reader's intention with author's intention.

Any myths or fairy tales manage to teach lessons and any intelligent reader can manage to glean lessons from the stories and apply them to humanity in general.
A great deal of fiction has broad appeal, and undoubtedly the Bible contains fiction. However the appeal and interpretation of fiction can change as society does. So fiction may not be appreciated from century to century as once it was, and if you doubt that, I invite you to explore some Shakespeare with me, and tell me what you make of it.

Moreover, the Bible also contains letters, songs, prayers, and philosophical essays, and there is no reason to suppose that any of them were written with your life, context, values, knowledge or concerns in mind -- especially since much of that information did not yet exist.

I am sure you can manage to do it with the bible stories too if you try hard, even if you do choose to separate yourself from the rest of humanity and choose to believe there is no moral or lesson or principle in the bible stories which can possibly apply to you personally.
Sky, I've yet to see a post in which you do not patronise and lecture. Briefly I thought you might manage it in this post, until the paragraph above proved me wrong. It would greatly help your conversation if you could uphold a position without also patronising anyone who disagrees.

But for peoples of the time... I think the stories favour a reform toward Hellenstic Judaism [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and subsequently the creation of a pluralistic, monotheistic, imperial state faith.
Reform from what?
Conservative, xenophobic, pre-Roman Judaism to progressive, pluralistic Hellenicised Judaism such as that developed in Antioch and Egypt, and also seen in Jerusalem. That reform failed in Judaea, and I supplied a link to help answer that question. However, it's possible (and I believe quite likely) that key authors of the New Testament were writing about Hellenicised Judaism as a Judaic reform, rather than deliberately designing a handbook for humanity. That the Bible was adapted to a handbook for humanity could be explained by later Christian history in the Roman empire after its early attempts to reform Judaism failed.

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?
I don't believe either of those purposes required or saw a great adherence to truth.
The worship of any gods at all does not require adherence to truth but requires adherence to self deception in the sense of convincing oneself that at least one invisible supernatural character must be real.
Yes, I agree.

It seems very few religious fanatics want to face the truth that all invisible supernatural gods are mythical.
Delusion is a routine part of the human condition, Sky. We kid ourselves all the time both to soothe ourselves and as an expression of our anxieties. But religious delusion is especially pernicious because very often it claims systematic authority over critical moral and social questions -- and does so unaccountably and superstitiously from a place of conceit, ignorance, evasion and systematic dishonesty.

A great benefit of fiction is that it can always be inspirational, yet need not be seen as instructional -- that's at the sole discretion of the reader. Yet a great flaw with religion is that its fiction is often taken as instructional, true and too sacred to question.
Skyangel
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12/11/2015 3:46:32 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.
Don't you think all readers are the intended audience of any writers?
No, definitely not.

Sky, I've been a scientist, science communicator, educator, technical and business consultant, author and teacher of fiction-writing. All these roles have required written communication, and each affects my choice of topic, thesis, approach, organisation and choice of language.

I understand that but regardless of whether people write fact or fiction, they are still writing for the benefit of interested readers who bother to read their work regardless of whether they read it at the time it is written or after the authors die.
Even if we only learn about the cultures, beliefs and myths of our ancestors, any readers can learn something from ancient writers.

I can well believe that the authors of the Bible wrote for disparate audiences including pre-Roman and Roman-occupied Jews, trading Greeks, and subsequently citizens of the Roman empire. I can also believe that these books were redacted and interpreted for audiences other than those for whom they were written.

That may be true but some readers like me notice principles and themes in the stories which seem to apply to human nature in general regardless of the age they live in. In my perception that makes the stories timeless.

But I have no reason to suppose that any of the authors or redactors could possibly understand the things I do, or appreciate the way I gather and evaluate information, or have any apprehension of my own concerns.

There are obviously things ancient authors would not have understood about future technology and discoveries in the same way todays authors have no clue about what future technology and discoveries might be. However, when it comes to human nature, I doubt much changes over time. People seem to be very similar in many ways when it comes to human nature, wanting to be loved and understood, making good or bad choices, beliefs and judging each other as wise or foolish.

I think it is the height of ignorant folly to imagine that they were writing directly to anyone in this milieu, or the centuries preceding it. I believe that this folly, long accepted by Christians, has created untold harm and injury both to Christians, and to those parts of the non-Christian world they've conquered, ruled and administered in their paternalistic zeal.

Folly or not, obviously some readers see messages in the stories which can be applied to all ages.
The principle of reaping what we sow is just one example.
I agree that Christianity and many other religions have caused untold harm in many ways but there is a positive side as well as a negative side to most things in life and they certainly reap what they sow in the sense of receiving positive as well as negative judgements from those they judge. Some people rebel against the teachings and some convert to the teachings.

The sad thing is that so many adults still believe in invisible supernatural characters. If anything is the height of ignorant folly, that rates amongst the top of the list in my opinion.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/11/2015 4:28:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/11/2015 3:46:32 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.
Don't you think all readers are the intended audience of any writers?
No, definitely not.
Sky, I've been a scientist, science communicator, educator, technical and business consultant, author and teacher of fiction-writing. All these roles have required written communication, and each affects my choice of topic, thesis, approach, organisation and choice of language.
I understand that but regardless of whether people write fact or fiction, they are still writing for the benefit of interested readers who bother to read their work regardless of whether they read it at the time it is written or after the authors die.
While that's true, an author's ideas, context, form, approach and language are products of that author's milieu and concerns. Consequently, when an author imagines who will be reading and how they will appreciate the work, the author imagines something he or she already knows.

The people who authored Biblical texts had beliefs, customs and habits that wouldn't work in this world, and were largely unaware of many of the beliefs, customs, laws and concerns that now occupy our thought.
Even if we only learn about the cultures, beliefs and myths of our ancestors, any readers can learn something from ancient writers.
Yes, but they can also learn things ancient writers didn't intend, and even infer things that weren't true about that author's time, simply because they don't understand the time.

I can well believe that the authors of the Bible wrote for disparate audiences including pre-Roman and Roman-occupied Jews, trading Greeks, and subsequently citizens of the Roman empire. I can also believe that these books were redacted and interpreted for audiences other than those for whom they were written.
That may be true but some readers like me notice principles and themes in the stories which seem to apply to human nature in general
What do you mean by themes? I ask because I've spent a lot of time with fiction writers and readers of fiction, and they can mean different things by this word. Some mean images -- recurring motifs. Some mean problems, situations or events they recognise. Some mean morals they recognise.

Regardless, in literary appreciation there's always the question of whether you're appreciating something the author intentionally put in the subtext; something which is in the subtext, but not conscious; or something which couldn't possibly be in the subtext, but which you construed to be there anyway.

It's possible to resolve those questions, but hard to do so as an individual reader reading texts far outside your own familiar social context.

But I have no reason to suppose that any of the authors or redactors could possibly understand the things I do, or appreciate the way I gather and evaluate information, or have any apprehension of my own concerns.
When it comes to human nature, I doubt much changes over time.
Well, let's test that. Would you ever:
* Sacrifice a child to another tribe to eat, in order to end a war? The Polynesians did.
* Bind a daughter's feet to break her toes and make her more marriagable? The Chinese did.
* Marry a daughter off before puberty or without her consent? Many ancient peoples did.
* Whip, humiliate or disfigure a woman who scolded a man? These were common mediaeval punishments.
* Set fire to a cat for entertainment? This was a popular Renaissance sport.
* Send a child to the permanent foster-care of an enemy ruler? The exchange of hostages was a common practice all through the ancient world.
* Condone the execution of a woman for infidelity? Again, a popular custom.
* Treat a literate person under the law differently to a person who couldn't read? This custom was current through to the end of the 17th century.
* Consign your five-year old son to work down a coal-mine under conditions that would threaten his life and cause him lifelong respiratory problems? Working-class Britons routinely did this into the late 19th century.
* Allow your husband, brother or father to beat a child to the point of breaking bones or knocking out teeth? This was commonplace in the early 20th century.

I'm guessing that the answer to most or all of these questions is 'no'.

My point, Sky, isn't that customs are arbitrary. It's that prosperity, secular education, and an accountable, democratic government change society and character in fundamental ways, regardless of cultural heritage and religious traditions. over time they make society and its people kinder, wiser, more peaceful, more egalitarian, with a much higher regard for individuality and life.

I'm guessing that you wouldn't want to live in the world inhabited by Biblical authors. I suspect too that very few would respect or tolerate many of the things that you consider as essential to your character and dignity.

People seem to be very similar in many ways when it comes to human nature, wanting to be loved and understood, making good or bad choices, beliefs and judging each other as wise or foolish.
Yes; our needs are common. Our values, priorities, behaviours and approaches to solving problems are not.

I think it is the height of ignorant folly to imagine that they were writing directly to anyone in this milieu, or the centuries preceding it. I believe that this folly, long accepted by Christians, has created untold harm and injury both to Christians, and to those parts of the non-Christian world they've conquered, ruled and administered in their paternalistic zeal.
Folly or not, obviously some readers see messages in the stories which can be applied to all ages.
The principle of reaping what we sow is just one example.
Do you truly believe in a world whose natural laws somehow balance justice?

I don't. I think the only justice is what we make -- and I believe that an eye for an eye is no justice at all.

The sad thing is that so many adults still believe in invisible supernatural characters. If anything is the height of ignorant folly, that rates amongst the top of the list in my opinion.
I'm anti-theistic, meaning that I hold that belief in gods is generally bad for us.

But it's not the superstition that most concerns me. People believe in all kinds of magics -- even atheists believe in such things at times.

What bothers me is the sanctification of theology. The idea that some stories are made so sacred, you're no longer allowed to contest or replace them. I mentioned before that fiction can inspire -- and that inspiration helps develop critical thought. But theology is fiction that presumes to instruct -- demanding compliance, yet offering neither transparency nor accountability. It's an abuse of intellectual integrity, and toxic to critical thought.

(Thank you by the way for the tone of your post, Sky. I appreciated it.)
Skyangel
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12/11/2015 4:45:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:

In my opinion, If we are a reader of something that interests us, we are indeed one of the intended audience.
No, that conflates reader's intention with author's intention.

No reader today can know for certain what the intention of a dead author was when he first wrote what he did. The best any reader can do is learn what they can from whatever has been written. Some things like bible stories are obviously very controversial whether the authors intended them to be that way or not.

Any myths or fairy tales manage to teach lessons and any intelligent reader can manage to glean lessons from the stories and apply them to humanity in general.
A great deal of fiction has broad appeal, and undoubtedly the Bible contains fiction. However the appeal and interpretation of fiction can change as society does. So fiction may not be appreciated from century to century as once it was, and if you doubt that, I invite you to explore some Shakespeare with me, and tell me what you make of it.

I do not doubt it but I do understand not all forms of literature appeal to all people. Literature is an art form which involves a matter of taste. When readers do not understand certain idioms or allegories a story containing those things can sound like total nonsense to them so they would simply discard it due to lack of interest or lack of understanding.

If you want to discuss Shakespeare go ahead and start a thread about it in the relevant forum.

Moreover, the Bible also contains letters, songs, prayers, and philosophical essays, and there is no reason to suppose that any of them were written with your life, context, values, knowledge or concerns in mind -- especially since much of that information did not yet exist.

I don't take any of it personally. However, that doesn't stop me from seeing principles regarding human nature in the stories. Neither does it stop me from relating to some of the characters or comparing them with people I know.
Besides that, values and principles are passed down from one generation to another. Opposite values and principles seem to have always exited amongst people. If they did not, we would not have wars and arguments. I doubt that principle changes much over time. I suspect people will always be arguing over opposite aspects of life.

I am sure you can manage to do it with the bible stories too if you try hard, even if you do choose to separate yourself from the rest of humanity and choose to believe there is no moral or lesson or principle in the bible stories which can possibly apply to you personally.

Sky, I've yet to see a post in which you do not patronise and lecture. Briefly I thought you might manage it in this post, until the paragraph above proved me wrong. It would greatly help your conversation if you could uphold a position without also patronising anyone who disagrees.

I find it thoroughly amusing that you are trying to patronize and lecture me about patronizing and lecturing you.
I am merely sharing my thoughts, not trying to impress you or anyone else or make any readers feel good or bad about themselves. I am merely reacting to words in front of me. The fact is that I perceive and judge certain things as being childish. If I see words which I perceive and interpret as childish, I automatically reply as if I am replying to a child. If you feel patronised by my reactions and replies to the words you write, the problem lies within you.
I suggest you step back from the words on the screen, attempt to look at them more objectively and try to accept the unique ways individuals have of expressing themselves.
Skyangel
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12/11/2015 5:18:42 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?
I don't believe either of those purposes required or saw a great adherence to truth.
The worship of any gods at all does not require adherence to truth but requires adherence to self deception in the sense of convincing oneself that at least one invisible supernatural character must be real.
Yes, I agree.

It seems very few religious fanatics want to face the truth that all invisible supernatural gods are mythical.
Delusion is a routine part of the human condition, Sky. We kid ourselves all the time both to soothe ourselves and as an expression of our anxieties. But religious delusion is especially pernicious because very often it claims systematic authority over critical moral and social questions -- and does so unaccountably and superstitiously from a place of conceit, ignorance, evasion and systematic dishonesty.

A great benefit of fiction is that it can always be inspirational, yet need not be seen as instructional -- that's at the sole discretion of the reader. Yet a great flaw with religion is that its fiction is often taken as instructional, true and too sacred to question.

I agree that is one flaw. Another as I see it, is the fact that so many people read and interpret religious literature as if it was historical and simply take it at face value as if an invisible supernatural character was the ultimate authority regarding humans laws and morals.

Human laws and morals seem to vary from one culture to another so there is really no "One size fits all"
All laws are subject to interpretation and perception and also subject to change from time to time.
I think the only "universal law" which most agree on is to do good to others and treat them in the way we would like to be treated. However, obviously what one person perceives as loving and kind is not always the same as what another perceives as loving or kind.

Take truth as an example. Most adults claim to believe it is a good thing to be honest and truthful and speak your mind yet when people do exactly that, those who feel offended by the truth tend to call it a lie or rude or disrespectful. etc and attempt to make the person who was simply being honest, feel bad about being honest. It is for this very reason that people tend to become superficial and don't always say what they really mean. We grow up learning to tickle peoples ears with niceties they prefer to hear rather than the truth of what we really think, especially if we wish to make friends instead of enemies.

When it comes to the Jesus character representing truth, I personally see truth calling a spade a spade in the story where Jesus chastises hypocrites for their hypocrisy and those same hypocrites got all offended by the truth, called it evil and a lie and ultimately rejected it.

That principle, the way I see it, is still the same in society today.
People seem to reject and crucify any truth and messenger of truth that does not make them feel good about themselves but points out their hypocrisy and childishness.

If truth sets an example to follow, the bible stories convey the message that truthful people are not always believed or perceived to be truthful or good.
It also conveys the message that truth can be perceived to be a lie and vice versa.
The fact that most do not seem to understand those opposite aspects and perceptions of truth is what creates deceptions in the first place.
Skyangel
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12/11/2015 5:26:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 10:33:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
This thread is for discussing religious myths regarding the Jesus character, what the characters represent to you, the morals or lessons you glean from the stories and how they relate to the way people live today.

The Jesus character in the bible stories is one of my favourites.
One of the things he represents is Truth.
The stories about him portray the way Truth affects people, different ways that people perceive and react toward Truth.
Some believe it without question, some question it and some simply call it a lie and reject it without even considering the possibility of anything honest or truthful about it.

The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.
If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.

What do you readers glean from the stories?

Can anyone else see how the Jesus character represents Truth?

There is truth found in all religions, but mostly it is a mixed up mess. The best you can hope for is to find these truths from within.

Most people don't realise that truth has opposite aspects and can easily be perceived as a lie. Being unaware of that fact causes people to become self deceived and fooled by what they believe to be true because they want it to be true not because it actually is true.

Just because humans believe something to be true, does not necessarily make it true.
Partial truths are never the whole truth. Half truths tend to lead people astray in any area of life.
Skyangel
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12/11/2015 6:19:27 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/11/2015 4:28:54 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/11/2015 3:46:32 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:32:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 11:02:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/10/2015 10:01:58 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
What do you readers glean from the stories?
For me personally -- nothing. I have no reason to suppose that I'm an intended audience of these stories, and every reason to suppose I'm not.
Don't you think all readers are the intended audience of any writers?
No, definitely not.
Sky, I've been a scientist, science communicator, educator, technical and business consultant, author and teacher of fiction-writing. All these roles have required written communication, and each affects my choice of topic, thesis, approach, organisation and choice of language.
I understand that but regardless of whether people write fact or fiction, they are still writing for the benefit of interested readers who bother to read their work regardless of whether they read it at the time it is written or after the authors die.
While that's true, an author's ideas, context, form, approach and language are products of that author's milieu and concerns. Consequently, when an author imagines who will be reading and how they will appreciate the work, the author imagines something he or she already knows.

That depends entirely on the genre. Poetry and myths for example do not necessarily need to be a product of environment and concerns but can simply be a product of imagination. I understand our concerns and environments can have a lot to do with our emotions, reactions and the ways we express ourselves but I tend to believe that mythical characters are more a product of imagination than a product of anyones concerns. Is Superman a product of human concerns and milieu for example or simply a product of imagination for entertainment purposes? Mythical characters, especially gods, are merely tools which can be used to express human emotions, fears, hopes, dreams, and various forces of nature etc. by personifying those aspects of human nature or nature in general.

The people who authored Biblical texts had beliefs, customs and habits that wouldn't work in this world, and were largely unaware of many of the beliefs, customs, laws and concerns that now occupy our thought.

That depends on how you wish to look at it and what particular beliefs customs and habits you wish to use as examples.

The concept of being kind and loving to others has not changed in centuries and I doubt it ever will.
The concept of gaining wisdom and understanding seems to be timeless. At least it is in my perception.
The concept of being truthful also does not seem to have changed. The only problem is that many call truth a lie and vice versa. People cannot seem to agree about what is true and what is not in many cases and that is not just in religious areas either.
Truth seems to occupy human thought today as much as it ever did and I suspect it always will as people continue to seek and search for answers and want correct answers not incorrect ones.
What occupies human thought the most in your opinion ?
In mine it is survival. Life, love, and anything I can think of can be placed under the heading of survival.
I doubt any future generations will not be concerned about that topic or the topics of right and wrong, good and bad, true and false.

Even if we only learn about the cultures, beliefs and myths of our ancestors, any readers can learn something from ancient writers.
Yes, but they can also learn things ancient writers didn't intend, and even infer things that weren't true about that author's time, simply because they don't understand the time.

It is true that any literature can convey things the writers never intended to convey but it is not just because readers do not understand the time. Lack of understanding is just one of the reasons words become misinterpreted or misunderstood. Lack of maturity can be another. Lack of maturity is one of the main reasons the immature believe in mythical characters when the mature do not. Another reason seems to be due to the readers perception and interpretation of the words. Our own words written on these forums are evidence enough that readers misinterpret words and read between the lines, glean things that were never intended and react in an immature manner die to interpreting words more personally than they ought. Words tend to have a very strong affect on readers, especially when the readers get personally involved in a story or communication where they imagine they are the character they are reading about.

We are all the writers of our own stories and the ways we react to the characters in them. We can choose to be a director or an actor on the stage of life.
Most seem to prefer being actors which let supernatural characters direct their lives instead of directing their own lives and overcoming the supernatural characters they fear so much.
Putting on false fronts seems to be the acceptable state of society in general. Put on a polite smile and act like you are expected to act by those who demand you live up to their standards regardless of whether those standards are realistic or not.
Toad-Uoff
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12/14/2015 4:40:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.

If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.


The "perceived" werd is your undoing, because it denotes Closed System Duality Perception, which then forms Perceptual Logic, which is the Fool's Logic, and from there, your argument fails, miserably.

Yeshua taught the Law of Zer0 (aka: WEism), whereas Closed System Duality Perception births out of the Law of One, which Yeshua denounced the Law of One, so by supposedly following Yeshua, but practicing what he taught against, you are contradicting yourself, which you have a common tendency to do.

But you won't listen, and that's because You're Always Right, in your own mind, but your Math SUCKS, proving what an idiot you really are but Duality Perception will turn even a Princess into a pigheaded mule!

"Faith replaces Logic when Ignorance rules the Roost, then that Ignorance based Faith supplants Common Sense with Duality Perception sourced Morals/Opinion, to then form the most perfect closed minded idiot possible, also known as a sheeple." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Law of Fools)

"Common Sense, rather than Faith, is the ONLY answer to uncovering the Truth, which then forms the Dynamic System known as Life. Faith is only good for creating a Static System, which then sources Entropy, which always ends in Death." - Old Toad Proverb

You are quite the cute little pompous turd, that thinks their sHiTe doesn't stink?

Ribbit :)
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/14/2015 5:56:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 4:40:25 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.

If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.


The "perceived" werd is your undoing, because it denotes Closed System Duality Perception, which then forms Perceptual Logic, which is the Fool's Logic, and from there, your argument fails, miserably.

Yeshua taught the Law of Zer0 (aka: WEism), whereas Closed System Duality Perception births out of the Law of One, which Yeshua denounced the Law of One, so by supposedly following Yeshua, but practicing what he taught against, you are contradicting yourself, which you have a common tendency to do.

But you won't listen, and that's because You're Always Right, in your own mind, but your Math SUCKS, proving what an idiot you really are but Duality Perception will turn even a Princess into a pigheaded mule!

"Faith replaces Logic when Ignorance rules the Roost, then that Ignorance based Faith supplants Common Sense with Duality Perception sourced Morals/Opinion, to then form the most perfect closed minded idiot possible, also known as a sheeple." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Law of Fools)

"Common Sense, rather than Faith, is the ONLY answer to uncovering the Truth, which then forms the Dynamic System known as Life. Faith is only good for creating a Static System, which then sources Entropy, which always ends in Death." - Old Toad Proverb

You are quite the cute little pompous turd, that thinks their sHiTe doesn't stink?

Ribbit :)

Wisdom and foolishness are simply opposite sides of the very same coin.

Yes I AM always right in my own mind but you are no different.
You are simply a pot calling a kettle black.
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
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12/14/2015 6:35:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:56:59 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/14/2015 4:40:25 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.

If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.


The "perceived" werd is your undoing, because it denotes Closed System Duality Perception, which then forms Perceptual Logic, which is the Fool's Logic, and from there, your argument fails, miserably.

Yeshua taught the Law of Zer0 (aka: WEism), whereas Closed System Duality Perception births out of the Law of One, which Yeshua denounced the Law of One, so by supposedly following Yeshua, but practicing what he taught against, you are contradicting yourself, which you have a common tendency to do.

But you won't listen, and that's because You're Always Right, in your own mind, but your Math SUCKS, proving what an idiot you really are but Duality Perception will turn even a Princess into a pigheaded mule!

"Faith replaces Logic when Ignorance rules the Roost, then that Ignorance based Faith supplants Common Sense with Duality Perception sourced Morals/Opinion, to then form the most perfect closed minded idiot possible, also known as a sheeple." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Law of Fools)

"Common Sense, rather than Faith, is the ONLY answer to uncovering the Truth, which then forms the Dynamic System known as Life. Faith is only good for creating a Static System, which then sources Entropy, which always ends in Death." - Old Toad Proverb

You are quite the cute little pompous turd, that thinks their sHiTe doesn't stink?

Ribbit :)

Wisdom and foolishness are simply opposite sides of the very same coin.

Yes I AM always right in my own mind but you are no different.

You are simply a pot calling a kettle black.

I see you do not UNDERSTAND an OTP:

"Foolishness is not foolish." - Old Toad Proverb

You used the werd Wisdom with Foolishness, without realizing you were not saying anything to bolster your argument, instead, you throw-out an innuendo that has nothing to do with nothing, and it's the stupidest thing I've seen you say so far.

You have not properly answered my Challenge and only an Fool in Denial does that.

Ribbit :)
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/14/2015 8:01:22 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 6:35:55 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:56:59 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/14/2015 4:40:25 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.

If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.


The "perceived" werd is your undoing, because it denotes Closed System Duality Perception, which then forms Perceptual Logic, which is the Fool's Logic, and from there, your argument fails, miserably.

Yeshua taught the Law of Zer0 (aka: WEism), whereas Closed System Duality Perception births out of the Law of One, which Yeshua denounced the Law of One, so by supposedly following Yeshua, but practicing what he taught against, you are contradicting yourself, which you have a common tendency to do.

But you won't listen, and that's because You're Always Right, in your own mind, but your Math SUCKS, proving what an idiot you really are but Duality Perception will turn even a Princess into a pigheaded mule!

"Faith replaces Logic when Ignorance rules the Roost, then that Ignorance based Faith supplants Common Sense with Duality Perception sourced Morals/Opinion, to then form the most perfect closed minded idiot possible, also known as a sheeple." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Law of Fools)

"Common Sense, rather than Faith, is the ONLY answer to uncovering the Truth, which then forms the Dynamic System known as Life. Faith is only good for creating a Static System, which then sources Entropy, which always ends in Death." - Old Toad Proverb

You are quite the cute little pompous turd, that thinks their sHiTe doesn't stink?

Ribbit :)

Wisdom and foolishness are simply opposite sides of the very same coin.

Yes I AM always right in my own mind but you are no different.

You are simply a pot calling a kettle black.

I see you do not UNDERSTAND an OTP:

"Foolishness is not foolish." - Old Toad Proverb

You used the werd Wisdom with Foolishness, without realizing you were not saying anything to bolster your argument, instead, you throw-out an innuendo that has nothing to do with nothing, and it's the stupidest thing I've seen you say so far.

You have not properly answered my Challenge and only an Fool in Denial does that.

Ribbit :)

I do not perceive a pot calling a kettle black, as a challenge.
It is simply one fool telling another fool what a fool they are.
Where is the challenge in that ?
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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12/14/2015 1:11:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 8:01:22 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/14/2015 6:35:55 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:56:59 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/14/2015 4:40:25 AM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/10/2015 8:07:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The message I get out of the story is that Truth can be perceived in opposite ways due to the bias and perception of those who judge it.

If it could not, no person would be able to deceive themselves by calling Truth a lie and calling their own lies Truth.


The "perceived" werd is your undoing, because it denotes Closed System Duality Perception, which then forms Perceptual Logic, which is the Fool's Logic, and from there, your argument fails, miserably.

Yeshua taught the Law of Zer0 (aka: WEism), whereas Closed System Duality Perception births out of the Law of One, which Yeshua denounced the Law of One, so by supposedly following Yeshua, but practicing what he taught against, you are contradicting yourself, which you have a common tendency to do.

But you won't listen, and that's because You're Always Right, in your own mind, but your Math SUCKS, proving what an idiot you really are but Duality Perception will turn even a Princess into a pigheaded mule!

"Faith replaces Logic when Ignorance rules the Roost, then that Ignorance based Faith supplants Common Sense with Duality Perception sourced Morals/Opinion, to then form the most perfect closed minded idiot possible, also known as a sheeple." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Law of Fools)

"Common Sense, rather than Faith, is the ONLY answer to uncovering the Truth, which then forms the Dynamic System known as Life. Faith is only good for creating a Static System, which then sources Entropy, which always ends in Death." - Old Toad Proverb

You are quite the cute little pompous turd, that thinks their sHiTe doesn't stink?

Ribbit :)

Wisdom and foolishness are simply opposite sides of the very same coin.

Yes I AM always right in my own mind but you are no different.

You are simply a pot calling a kettle black.

I see you do not UNDERSTAND an OTP:

"Foolishness is not foolish." - Old Toad Proverb

You used the werd Wisdom with Foolishness, without realizing you were not saying anything to bolster your argument, instead, you throw-out an innuendo that has nothing to do with nothing, and it's the stupidest thing I've seen you say so far.

You have not properly answered my Challenge and only an Fool in Denial does that.

Ribbit :)

I do not perceive a pot calling a kettle black, as a challenge.
It is simply one fool telling another fool what a fool they are.
Where is the challenge in that ?

Skyangel v.s. the caped toad

if a toad had wings it wouldn't bump it's butt on the ground
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
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12/14/2015 8:36:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 8:01:22 AM, Skyangel wrote:

I do not perceive a pot calling a kettle black, as a challenge.

It is simply one fool telling another fool what a fool they are.

Where is the challenge in that ?

I will agree that everyone is a Fool but that's all you said that's truthful, the rest is perceptually biased logic (aka: opinion) talking.

I don't know what part of "Duality Perception will turn you into the most EVIL person possible" you don't Understand?

You REFUSE to take me on, in my 9 Deadly Sins thread but that's because it outs your Closed System Duality Perception as the EVIL it IS and your perceptual mental-blocks won't allow you to accept/tackle a challenge to YOUR TRUTH, it only allows you to MAKE challenges, you NEVER accept a Challenge concerning YOUR TRUTH.

That is Closed Mindedness to the MAX.

I see you are not well-versed in Math, yet you think Math isn't NECESSARY yet Goethe said it:

That which Matters, should never be sat the Mercy of that which does kNot; and Math Matters the MOST." - Goethe

You have your Crystal Ball of Calculus and it has shown you EVERY POSSIBLE WRONG ANSWER IT CAN SEE, with its INVISIBLE WRITING LEADING IT TOO.

You are a product of your education and as such, since your government isn't properly educating you, you are a fool, just like the Scarecrow, who, all it took was a Piece of Paper and he was Smart.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

You know kNot the Math of what you speak, so you know kNot the Truth.

It's impossible for you to know the Truth of anything, if you don't Understand the Math underneath it; you only Understand your Perceptual take on it and that is kNot the Truth, as Louis Carroll explained nicely in the Hunting of the Snark.

Louis was truly Brilliant! It's too bad Newton wasn't as smart as Louis Carroll but Newton has had his Stubbornness getting in his way every incarnation, Louis didn't and doesn't have any hang-ups, like Newton does.

Ribbit :)
Toad-Uoff
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12/14/2015 8:40:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 1:11:41 PM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:

Skyangel v.s. the caped toad

if a toad had wings it wouldn't bump it's butt on the ground

Cape = Str8 Jacket

Ribbit :D
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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12/15/2015 12:43:26 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 8:40:08 PM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/14/2015 1:11:41 PM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:

Skyangel v.s. the caped toad

if a toad had wings it wouldn't bump it's butt on the ground

Cape = Str8 Jacket

Ribbit :D

EE: That explains the potty mouth. Maybe they should of used a muzzle instead of a straight jacket on you?

Toads have tiny front legs and mostly use them for brushing things away from their mouth and keeping from tipping over.

I suppose that would make for a angry mad toad not being able to wipe the runs away that the bad bugs create.

what happens when you talk and fart at the same time?

what direction do you move if any?
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/15/2015 12:57:15 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 8:36:43 PM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/14/2015 8:01:22 AM, Skyangel wrote:

I do not perceive a pot calling a kettle black, as a challenge.

It is simply one fool telling another fool what a fool they are.

Where is the challenge in that ?

I will agree that everyone is a Fool but that's all you said that's truthful, the rest is perceptually biased logic (aka: opinion) talking.

Thank you for admitting you are as much of a Fool as you accuse everyone else of being.
The rest of your words are evidence of your own foolishness.