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miloisqueer
Posts: 40
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12/11/2015 6:21:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I found this: "The mind is deceitful (Jer 17:9; Mat 15:19) and we are not to lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)." said by theWORDisLIFE in a debate, and I have to admit it was quite terrifying to see. The way I see it, this is the bible discouraging free will and logical thoughts, to ensure that people do not question the teachings therein.

It seems frighteningly close to brainwashing mind-control in sci-fi, and I have to admit it's a bit unnerving. I'm honestly just curious, why would anyone allow themselves to be taken in by something that openly discourages questioning? Questioning is how one learns, as answers are given and information is taken in and interpreted.

Atheists: Do you find this as worrying as I do?

Theists: How do you rectify this with the philosophy of Descartes so completely accepted dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am"?
Religion is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness. -Richard Dawkins
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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12/11/2015 9:15:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/11/2015 6:21:34 PM, miloisqueer wrote:

Christians rely on their own understanding to some degree. That is overwhelmingly obvious in light of what the apostles said:
Acts 17:11:
"Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessaloni'ca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

1 John 4:1:
"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

However, there is some danger when it comes to examining things:
Genesis 3:1-5:
"Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: 'Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?' At this the woman said to the serpent: 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.' At this the serpent said to the woman: 'You certainly will not die. For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.'"

2 Timothy 3: 1, 13:
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. [...] But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled."
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
lifeforce
Posts: 45
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12/11/2015 9:34:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/11/2015 6:21:34 PM, miloisqueer wrote:
I found this: "The mind is deceitful (Jer 17:9; Mat 15:19) and we are not to lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)." said by theWORDisLIFE in a debate, and I have to admit it was quite terrifying to see. The way I see it, this is the bible discouraging free will and logical thoughts, to ensure that people do not question the teachings therein.

It seems frighteningly close to brainwashing mind-control in sci-fi, and I have to admit it's a bit unnerving. I'm honestly just curious, why would anyone allow themselves to be taken in by something that openly discourages questioning? Questioning is how one learns, as answers are given and information is taken in and interpreted.

Atheists: Do you find this as worrying as I do?

Theists: How do you rectify this with the philosophy of Descartes so completely accepted dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am"? : :

God sent prophets and saints to speak for him. If you listen to what they say, which is the voice of the Lord, you will learn everything that God wanted us to know before all his people die in this world.

There's nothing to worry about because they way he created us will give us life experiences forever and ever.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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12/11/2015 10:00:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/11/2015 6:21:34 PM, miloisqueer wrote:
I found this: "The mind is deceitful (Jer 17:9; Mat 15:19) and we are not to lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)." said by theWORDisLIFE in a debate, and I have to admit it was quite terrifying to see. The way I see it, this is the bible discouraging free will and logical thoughts, to ensure that people do not question the teachings therein.
Atheists: Do you find this as worrying as I do?
Milo, the sanctification of dogma is always concerning, however we need to understand the historical context here: before the Enlightenment, the idea that free intellectual inquiry was effective, much less highly desirable, was unthinkable in most milieux.

The tradition of cultural and political elites -- elders, rulers, clergy and their institutions -- dictating beliefs to the ruled goes back before the earliest recorded history to the oral traditions of pre-literate cultures. Moreover, the idea that people questioning those beliefs could somehow produce better outcomes than those prescribing them was seldom accepted until empiricism and the subsequent proliferation of reliable investigative technologies and methods showed this to be true.

So for most of human civilisation we've had only brief flashes of independent thought -- thought to found in ancient Greece, India, China, Persia, Arabia -- largely swamped in deluges of reactionary dogmatic supremacism. One reason such dogmatic supremacism is so attractive to ignorant is that you don't have to be smart or well-educated to assert it: you need only pound some book written by someone who claims to know more than you. Another is its attraction to authoritarian rulers: the dumber the population, the more compliant.

After the Enlightenment, that changed, but we've still had barely four centuries in which independent, empirical inquiry is recognised to be more reliable than appeals to authority and tradition -- and still, most traditional institutions (with their very relevance at stake) contest this hotly using every rhetorical and political trick they can (see for example, the Intelligent Design strategy, or the RC church's century-long railing against secularism.) Four centuries is a long time for societies, but only a short time for the most conservative, entitled, and arrogant intellectual institutions. Many are still catching up to ideas that changed a century and a half ago, so it's not surprising to see adherents and supporters regurgitating rhetorical platitudes that even men in knickerbockers and powdered wigs had debunked.

Intellectually and pragmatically, they haven't a leg to stand on, however they do a great line of comforting the ignorant with platitudes and terrifying them with misinformation.

So it's very concerning, but also inevitable that society doesn't move all together. After millennia of entrainment to dogmatic supremacism, the most ignorant, traditional and neurotic must be coaxed along slowly as their institutions are either transformed or dismantled.