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Tough question for Christians

Zarroette
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12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/16/2015 12:46:15 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

You mean like some one who raped and tortured to death children and never got caught but now finds himself in old age on his death bed....................
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Zarroette
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12/16/2015 12:47:11 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:46:15 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

You mean like some one who raped and tortured to death children and never got caught but now finds himself in old age on his death bed....................

Yes -- that's a great example (albeit sickening).
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/16/2015 12:51:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:47:11 AM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:46:15 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

You mean like some one who raped and tortured to death children and never got caught but now finds himself in old age on his death bed....................

Yes -- that's a great example (albeit sickening).

Its based on an example by Sam Harris as he rips in various religious propositions and how they are defended.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/16/2015 1:17:29 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

He's the judge not us.
GrittyWorm
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12/16/2015 1:19:36 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The Bible declares that God knows the hearts and motives of men. It also declares that judgement is His alone. No one is going to pull the wool over his eyes. If something is B.S. he can discern it being omniscient to all that goes on in our reality.
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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12/16/2015 2:07:13 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

I don't claim to know, if he wants God's forgiveness, maybe
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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12/16/2015 8:34:05 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 1:19:36 AM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The Bible declares that God knows the hearts and motives of men. It also declares that judgement is His alone. No one is going to pull the wool over his eyes. If something is B.S. he can discern it being omniscient to all that goes on in our reality.

How can this prove to be the case?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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12/16/2015 10:58:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

yes...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/16/2015 2:08:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

If you're dreadful it's because you haven't accepted Jesus into your life. This types of Christians are fooling themselves if their God is true.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/16/2015 2:11:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

Is this your way of trying to get saved? Hopefully all the good Christians PM you to help you with that. You aren't beyond saving Cassie.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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12/16/2015 3:38:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

If that had any credibility is an evil dogma!
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/16/2015 3:55:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

It's not a tough question, and I am not a Christian,

But I will answer anyhow,

According to Christianity, You will be saved, But it is my understanding that you really need to mean it. Accepting Jesus and everything he stood for implies more than just whimsically accepting him, It means also accepting him to the very core and actually believing that he was the true saviour. Not just as a get out of jail free card where you get to pass go and collect "200
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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12/16/2015 5:21:33 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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12/16/2015 5:31:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The atheist objection to this is, of course, based on the assumption that a person's goodness should determine whether or not a person should get into Heaven were it real. They also assume that only the victim has a right to forgive that person (every sin is first and foremost a crime against God; human rights only exist within the context of the rights that He has granted us).
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
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Zarroette
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12/16/2015 9:00:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 10:58:14 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

yes...

Care to elaborate?
Zarroette
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12/16/2015 9:02:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 2:11:42 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?


If you're dreadful it's because you haven't accepted Jesus into your life. This types of Christians are fooling themselves if their God is true.

Why are they fooling themselves? Isn't a main tenant of Christianity that you need to accept Jesus into you life?

Is this your way of trying to get saved? Hopefully all the good Christians PM you to help you with that. You aren't beyond saving Cassie.

I'm just curious and always open to the possibility of converting.
Zarroette
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12/16/2015 9:06:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 3:55:18 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

It's not a tough question, and I am not a Christian,

But I will answer anyhow,

According to Christianity, You will be saved, But it is my understanding that you really need to mean it. Accepting Jesus and everything he stood for implies more than just whimsically accepting him, It means also accepting him to the very core and actually believing that he was the true saviour. Not just as a get out of jail free card where you get to pass go and collect "200

So, based on the logic of this answer, Hitler could be saved, so long as he had strong faith and "meant" it?
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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12/16/2015 9:08:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 5:31:47 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The atheist objection to this is, of course, based on the assumption that a person's goodness should determine whether or not a person should get into Heaven were it real.

What would be the point of the Ten Commandments and all of those verses on how to be a good person, if none of them ultimately mattered?

They also assume that only the victim has a right to forgive that person (every sin is first and foremost a crime against God; human rights only exist within the context of the rights that He has granted us).

I suppose it's possible that this is the case, but how can we prove that it happens?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/16/2015 9:13:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 9:02:19 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/16/2015 2:11:42 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?


If you're dreadful it's because you haven't accepted Jesus into your life. This types of Christians are fooling themselves if their God is true.

Why are they fooling themselves? Isn't a main tenant of Christianity that you need to accept Jesus into you life?

You haven't accepted him into your life if you're a nasty person though. When he is in your life, it isn't just some intellectual acknowledgement of his existence, but a spiritual happening. You become peaceful and loving, it's a change in your soul that takes place. You can't simultaneously be a nasty person and have accepted Jesus. If you accepted Jesus than you know that God is love, and you embody that to the best of your ability. Acceptance in the head, isn't the same as acceptance in the heart, and the heart is what needs to accept Jesus.

Is this your way of trying to get saved? Hopefully all the good Christians PM you to help you with that. You aren't beyond saving Cassie.

I'm just curious and always open to the possibility of converting.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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12/16/2015 9:31:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

Jesus says righteousness is the key:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If person becomes righteous in his last moments, he gets eternal life, if we believe Bible Jesus.

Righteousness is more than believing that Jesus is.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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12/16/2015 9:37:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 9:00:04 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/16/2015 10:58:14 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

yes...

Care to elaborate?

yes you will be saved... does that help...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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12/17/2015 12:31:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; and to those he said, "You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you." And so they went. "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, "Why have you been standing here idle all day long?" "They said to him, "Because no one hired us." He said to them, "You go into the vineyard too."

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, "Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first." "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, "These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day." "But he answered and said to one of them, "Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? "Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?"


&

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

So yes.
Geogeer
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12/17/2015 12:35:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

I should add that just to believe is insufficient - it would require an act of perfect contrition. Other than having this discussion degrade into the differences between what is minimally necessary for salvation between Christian denominations I'll start with the broad answer. We can get into the details later.
Illegalcombatant
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12/17/2015 12:39:12 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 5:31:47 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The atheist objection to this is, of course, based on the assumption that a person's goodness should determine whether or not a person should get into Heaven were it real. They also assume that only the victim has a right to forgive that person (every sin is first and foremost a crime against God; human rights only exist within the context of the rights that He has granted us).

Every raped women..............the main crime was against God.

No, I am pretty sure the main crime is against the person being raped and not an invisible man.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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12/17/2015 12:45:11 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

With true repentance comes salvation. With a background like that, there would be extreme regret, and that, while yet alive, is punishment enough. Just think, you would know you deserved the worst of all punishments(and you would want to make amends while yet alive, but if you're dying..), and to be forgiven is the last thing you would've expected.
Illegalcombatant
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12/17/2015 12:52:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/17/2015 12:39:12 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:31:47 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

The atheist objection to this is, of course, based on the assumption that a person's goodness should determine whether or not a person should get into Heaven were it real. They also assume that only the victim has a right to forgive that person (every sin is first and foremost a crime against God; human rights only exist within the context of the rights that He has granted us).

Every raped women..............the main crime was against God.

No, I am pretty sure the main crime is against the person being raped and not an invisible man.

Also these "God given" rights, would you like to tell us what they are ? also how do you know which rights are God given or not ?

You wouldn't happen to just be making sh*t up then attributing them to God would you ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
RuvDraba
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12/17/2015 12:57:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 5:31:47 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?
The atheist objection to this is, of course, based on the assumption that a person's goodness should determine whether or not a person should get into Heaven were it real.

Actually, there's more than one objection from atheists, but among them are concerns that the Christian concept of divine justice is:

* obscure and opaque -- you have to somehow know which religion is true, and how to interpret its dogma in order to understand what's expected of you;
* conflicted -- even Christian theologians can't agree on exactly how it works, so how is anyone to understand what a divine idea of justice is?
* cynically and evasively reinterpreted -- despite scriptural canon unchanging for some 1600+ years, theologians repeatedly change their interpretations to gain the most influence and benefit for their churches;
* meted out only when you're dead -- justice is most effective when it swiftly follows whatever offence or virtue earns it, yet the Christian supervisor sits on everything, saves it up and springs it on you at the end, like some grudge-carrying Santa Claus;
* disproportionate -- with punishments and rewards vastly exceeding the costs and benefits of offenses and services rendered;
* unthinkably barbaric -- self-explanatory;
* irreversible -- Christian theology generally holds that repentance and rehabilitation are impossible after death (except for purgatory, which was a later invention, and has been amended multiple times and repudiated);
* ineffective for eliciting good behaviour -- if we asked our wisest people to build a justice system to elicit the best in humanity, it wouldn't be the one purportedly created by the Christian god, and this is abundantly born out by Christian behaviour; and
* largely unnecessary -- since an invulnerable creator with unlimited resources can't be hurt itself, and can offer restitution and choices human justice never could.

In other words, VV, the Christian conception of divine justice bears no resemblance to a kind, effective, wise, proportionate, necessary and effective system, and complete consistency with an ancient, barbaric propaganda used to bully, intimidate and seduce the credulous, support clerical exploitation, and subjected to frequent and unaccountable updates to maintain relevance with a changing world.
johnlubba
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12/17/2015 12:39:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 9:06:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/16/2015 3:55:18 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

It's not a tough question, and I am not a Christian,

But I will answer anyhow,

According to Christianity, You will be saved, But it is my understanding that you really need to mean it. Accepting Jesus and everything he stood for implies more than just whimsically accepting him, It means also accepting him to the very core and actually believing that he was the true saviour. Not just as a get out of jail free card where you get to pass go and collect "200

So, based on the logic of this answer, Hitler could be saved, so long as he had strong faith and "meant" it?

Yes, and why not?
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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12/17/2015 12:45:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/17/2015 12:39:00 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/16/2015 9:06:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/16/2015 3:55:18 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:35:38 AM, Zarroette wrote:
If you're a dreadful person your entire life, and yet you believe in Jesus in the dying moments of your life, will you be saved?

It's not a tough question, and I am not a Christian,

But I will answer anyhow,

According to Christianity, You will be saved, But it is my understanding that you really need to mean it. Accepting Jesus and everything he stood for implies more than just whimsically accepting him, It means also accepting him to the very core and actually believing that he was the true saviour. Not just as a get out of jail free card where you get to pass go and collect "200

So, based on the logic of this answer, Hitler could be saved, so long as he had strong faith and "meant" it?

Yes, and why not?
Because it means that your god would welcome Hitler into heaven and condemn a good person who hasn't heard of jesus to everlasting torture.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin