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Theists, How did God come into existence?

beng100
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12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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12/19/2015 6:06:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?

I asked this question here months ago just for provoking http://www.debate.org...

They will say that God is the creator of time and space and thus doesn't need to have a creator. In my words, just the same logics as if the universe always has existed. I think the theory is that the universe existed before the big bang, but a very tiny version of it.

So it is quite funny that some people use the "something cannot just have assembled itself" yet have these rhetorics at the creator.
AbuJarir
Posts: 91
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12/19/2015 6:13:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
He is the creator of phyisics and scientific laws set in place in our physical world and all we know so therefore not bound to space time and is infinate and outside of our universe and deminsion.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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12/19/2015 6:35:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:13:05 PM, AbuJarir wrote:
He is the creator of phyisics and scientific laws set in place in our physical world and all we know so therefore not bound to space time and is infinate and outside of our universe and deminsion.

It's funny the lengths and depths believers will stretch the pomposity of their gods qualities where none are shown to exist.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Pollux
Posts: 241
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12/19/2015 6:38:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

The universe created the laws of cause and effect and therefore needs no creator.
AbuJarir
Posts: 91
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12/19/2015 6:38:59 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:35:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:13:05 PM, AbuJarir wrote:
He is the creator of phyisics and scientific laws set in place in our physical world and all we know so therefore not bound to space time and is infinate and outside of our universe and deminsion.

It's funny the lengths and depths believers will stretch the pomposity of their gods qualities where none are shown to exist.

I plan to major in physics after high school and this not a stretch if you understand the nature of Allah he is not like us and is not created but rather uncreated.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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12/19/2015 6:47:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:38:52 PM, Pollux wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

The universe created the laws of cause and effect and therefore needs no creator.

The universe has a beginning and an end, therefore is restricted by cause and effect, hence it requires an initial cause.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 7:01:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?

Here's the difference. Atheism and Christianity both face the chicken or the egg problem. The difference is Atheism has no variable that gives an anser. Atheism is just stuck on the variable equation problem. Creationism offers a variable that comes from a place that you cannot define its reality. It offers an answer that may or may not need a "beginning" in its reality. Atheism only offers this reality which gives no answer of any kind.
Pollux
Posts: 241
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12/19/2015 7:15:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
When you don't know the answer, it's easy and HONEST to admit that, as the atheist does. It is convoluted and lung to pretend to know the answer when you can't demonstrate a single facet of your silly supposition.
beng100
Posts: 1,055
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12/19/2015 7:21:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:01:21 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?

Here's the difference. Atheism and Christianity both face the chicken or the egg problem. The difference is Atheism has no variable that gives an anser. Atheism is just stuck on the variable equation problem. Creationism offers a variable that comes from a place that you cannot define its reality. It offers an answer that may or may not need a "beginning" in its reality. Atheism only offers this reality which gives no answer of any kind.

But you accept you have no idea how your chosen god came into existence? It is not mentioned anywhere in Christian religious scripture is it? Your opinions on this issue are based on assumptions without any evidence. Atheism can allow thoughts of complex areas in space and time not bound by known reality as well as parallel universes and different dimensions. However until these are known and proven their existence is purely a speculation. Atheism and theism are no different in this area. Both speculate on what may have happened outside of known events but that's all it is. Speculation.
beng100
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12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:21:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:01:21 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?

Here's the difference. Atheism and Christianity both face the chicken or the egg problem. The difference is Atheism has no variable that gives an anser. Atheism is just stuck on the variable equation problem. Creationism offers a variable that comes from a place that you cannot define its reality. It offers an answer that may or may not need a "beginning" in its reality. Atheism only offers this reality which gives no answer of any kind.

But you accept you have no idea how your chosen god came into existence? It is not mentioned anywhere in Christian religious scripture is it? Your opinions on this issue are based on assumptions without any evidence. Atheism can allow thoughts of complex areas in space and time not bound by known reality as well as parallel universes and different dimensions. However until these are known and proven their existence is purely a speculation. Atheism and theism are no different in this area. Both speculate on what may have happened outside of known events but that's all it is. Speculation.

I have no burden to "prove when he came into existance" because I believe quite different than that. I believe that nobody "came into existance". I believe who you are is a series of information. Information cannot be destroyed. How can you destroy the mathematical formula of who one is? You cannot destroy information. You also can not create it. You may believe yourself the first to concieve a particular information, but it existed whether you concieved it or not. Who God is cannot be created or destroyed. If none of our information was created and cannot be destroyed, we are all unbirthed and all immortal. The same would apply to God. The Bible supports my claim by saying "I knew you before you were even born." It also declares heaven and hell as "eternal". This indicates that no one was poofed into being nor ever disappears from reality. All of us just "are". In the Bible God states, "I am." Just simply "I am". Jesus stated,"Before Abraham was even born Iam." Of which the Pharisees chastised his statement by saying he's only 30 years old!
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 7:59:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.
Described by whom?
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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12/19/2015 8:55:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

support where that egg came from. I will then ask you where that came from until you get back to abiogenesis of which I will ask "where did that come from?", then back to the big bang of which I'll ask, "and where did that come from?", and on and one infinitely. Support where the egg came from.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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12/19/2015 9:01:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

And if you declare there was ever a "first thing", you suffer the same exact question that you pose to us. If you do not believe there was a "first thing", then you face the responsibility of explaining how we have infinite bodies creating infinite bodies with no first body, no mother of all, and everything having a mother infinitely. Explain to us how that works.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/19/2015 9:31:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 6:35:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:13:05 PM, AbuJarir wrote:
He is the creator of phyisics and scientific laws set in place in our physical world and all we know so therefore not bound to space time and is infinate and outside of our universe and deminsion.

It's funny the lengths and depths believers will stretch the pomposity of their gods qualities where none are shown to exist.

What caused the big bang? And what caused that? You suffer the same resonsibility to explain where the first thing that gave birth to all other things came from. If you say that everything has a "mother" infinitely, you must come up with the logic in everything having a mother and there being no "first mother". The difference is the Creationists are taking the time to defend and explain their position, and you are not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 10:04:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 8:55:21 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

support where that egg came from. I will then ask you where that came from until you get back to abiogenesis of which I will ask "where did that come from?", then back to the big bang of which I'll ask, "and where did that come from?", and on and one infinitely. Support where the egg came from.
Irrelevant to the question asked and answered find another thread.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 10:05:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 9:01:51 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

And if you declare there was ever a "first thing", you suffer the same exact question that you pose to us. If you do not believe there was a "first thing", then you face the responsibility of explaining how we have infinite bodies creating infinite bodies with no first body, no mother of all, and everything having a mother infinitely. Explain to us how that works.
I haven't declared anything, speak to the worm, see how that works?
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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12/19/2015 10:08:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 10:05:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 9:01:51 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

And if you declare there was ever a "first thing", you suffer the same exact question that you pose to us. If you do not believe there was a "first thing", then you face the responsibility of explaining how we have infinite bodies creating infinite bodies with no first body, no mother of all, and everything having a mother infinitely. Explain to us how that works.
I haven't declared anything, speak to the worm, see how that works?

What worm? You never declare anything or take a self supported stance on issues. What's new? I see you are still the same as the last time.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/19/2015 10:11:12 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 10:08:19 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 10:05:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 9:01:51 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:22:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:16:38 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 8:01:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:59:05 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:53:29 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:48:16 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/19/2015 7:27:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 6:28:13 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Since God created space and time, he is not restricted by cause and effect. Since God has no beginning he would not "come into existence", always has been and always will be. That's what it means to be the "unmoved mover" . Since cause and effect is a law of the universe, the universe would require a beginning. But since God created cause and effect, he would not need a beginning.

So you claim gods existence has been eternal? I wonder what else he got up to before allegedly creating the universe! It's a large amount of time to fill!

Being serious now what is the difference between your claim to me claiming the universe has always existed? I don't see how it is different? I admit to having no idea whatsoever what happened before the big bang.

Since the universe has a beginning, it therefore is restricted by cause and effect. However, God's life is described to be "without beginning or an end" (in Islam at least), therefore God cannot be restricted by cause and effect.

Our universe does have a beginning whether you view from Atheism or Creationism. Reality does not have a "beginning". If reality "began" it is an intellectual fallacy to say so. IMO. I believe reality just is. It is time that had a beginning, thus a born entity or created depending on your view.

To me we lose comprehensive ability when we say there never was a beginning, that history goes on infinitely, that everyone has a parent infinitely. That means there was no first. To say there was a first, means we got a chiken to egg scenario where eventually the first chicken just was. It's inconcievable. The answer must lie much deeper than that. I put forth that perhaps there is no such thing as time, being born, or dying, don't exist somewhere. Time is a creation. Or time was birthed like time in a video game. Time in a video game does not rule me who exists outside the video game. So I say there is a place outside of our reality where our sense of time, birth, and death is meaningless.
Good for you, now provide some evidence to support what you claim.

Based on the chicken and the egg example, what is Atheism's first chicken and where did that comee from? We both share the same quanandrum.
We know that chickens, being birds, are descended from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs so the egg came first.
Of course that is irrelevant to my request that you supply evidence in support of your claim.

And if you declare there was ever a "first thing", you suffer the same exact question that you pose to us. If you do not believe there was a "first thing", then you face the responsibility of explaining how we have infinite bodies creating infinite bodies with no first body, no mother of all, and everything having a mother infinitely. Explain to us how that works.
I haven't declared anything, speak to the worm, see how that works?

What worm? You never declare anything or take a self supported stance on issues. What's new? I see you are still the same as the last time.

You're the one who butted into a conversation prattling inanities, don't get your knickers because I set you straight.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
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12/19/2015 10:11:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?
Who made the creator, hmm, I think you are confusing yourself, just because you do not understand something does not mean it doesn't exist, we know God exists, we don't know how, but we know he does, people back in the 1800's knew electricity existed, but they didn't know how it works.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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12/19/2015 10:20:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 5:47:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Many theists claim that it is impossible for the universe to have begun without intelligent design or a trigger from a creator being. However they negate the fact this is a chicken and egg scenario. How did the creator being/ god come into existence?

If the universe could not have begun by itself, surely a god could not have created itself either?

see the dilemma? the universe needs a variable from somewhere outside of our reality. God does not need the universe for his existence because he is from outside of our reality. The universe lives within the physical laws of our reality. Without an outside variable that never had a beginning our universe, reality as we know it, and even we cannot exist.