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What Would Change Your Mind?

Pase66
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12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?
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Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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12/21/2015 4:10:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

Empirical data would be nice, but for me to be satisfied it would take extraordinary evidence and lots of it. That is not to be difficult, but the claim is spectacular and the evidence will need to match.

Best case scenario would be a face to face with whichever god turned out to be true. Again, I know this seems like I am being difficult. However, I have no assumptions about how a god might be other than more knowledge and power than human beings (honestly, I'm not really sure about that). I would hope to be able to distinguish between a god and completely natural life unknown to us. Most importantly, after this meeting I will need time to consider the experience for anything unexplainable (e.g. supernatural?) and if the answers provided have consistency, depth, insight, etc. Overall, I think it is a hard question to answer without actually being there and knowing exactly what a god is.

Finally, assuming I was convinced, I can't imagine why such a being would desire any worship or deserve it considering their absence/indifference throughout human history. But, that is probably for another thread.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
missmedic
Posts: 387
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12/21/2015 4:26:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

God and god alone could change my mind. However god does not want to or he can't.
A claim to know god empowers the knower not the god.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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12/21/2015 7:16:04 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The existence of a god/gods would change my mind.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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12/21/2015 3:56:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
If a deity appear to humans in a way which was totally irrefutable then one would have to believe it existed. Making it a matter of faith, with no evidence to back up its existence, would be a deity playing a crazy game with humans!
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 4:55:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you are a robot that God has to make you? you have God's permission to pursue and apply anytime you are ready....
Let's say God does "stick a finger in your brain", what then? what has changed about you personally?? except for the fact God poked you? nothing at all... it will only feed all the void in the current state of your soul, causing you to react and question rather than obey and listen. Only you will pursue and love God by choice, not force.
Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires.

God doesn't want only your hypnotic/robotic belief, He wants your commitment and pursuit (spirituality).
TheGreatAndPowerful
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12/21/2015 5:02:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:55:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you are a robot that God has to make you?

I didn't say he "had" to do that, or that was the minimal that would make me believe. I'm sure there is some convoluted series of events or coincidences that might, over time gradually convert me to a believe, but I'm not going to waste time speculating what they may be. My solution is simply, certain, and easy. It's really the best course of action.

you have God's permission to pursue and apply anytime you are ready....

And God has my permission to instill belief in my brain. It's clearly the superior solution. It can be done instantly, without fail and will result in a complete convert. Leaving it up to me will take time, is subject to fail, and will be dependent upon the whims of my personality and the chance events I'm exposed to. Clearly a waste of time.

Let's say God does "stick a finger in your brain", what then? what has changed about you personally?? except for the fact God poked you? nothing at all... it will only feed all the void in the current state of your soul, causing you to react and question rather than obey and listen. Only you will pursue and love God by choice, not force.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. You are suggesting a scenario where God partakes in a course of action but fails in it? That's absurd. God is omnipotent and omniscience. Nothing fails except that God wills it. I'm suggesting that God acts in a manner such that success is guaranteed. Such outcomes that I still an a disbeliever are nonsensical. My scenario has God's success in the matter as a given.

And I'm not suggesting that God force anything. I give him permission and consent to do so. That's not force. That's submission. Does not the Bible preach submission to God?

Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires.

God doesn't want only your hypnotic/robotic belief, He wants your commitment and pursuit (spirituality).

And he can have it. All he has to do is rewire my brain. If you want to talk about force, how about the fact that Free Will was (allegedly) forced upon me. If we're talking the fate of my immortal soul, with respect to Heaven and Hell, and it is my Free Will that results in the sin that will send me to hell, then I don't want it. I don't want Free Will. God can have it. Sinless perfection minus Free Will is clearly superior to Free Will with the chance of sin.

But no one asked me. God didn't ask me if I wanted Free Will. He forced it upon me.
dhardage
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12/21/2015 5:03:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
One clear, uncontestable, verifiable fact that unambiguously supports the assertion that one or more god or gods exist. It's not really hard.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 5:06:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:26:30 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

God and god alone could change my mind. However god does not want to or he can't.
God could change your mind?? changing your mind would be the opposite of what you want, you don't want God to change it because that would be manipulation without your full voluntary choice, you want to change it.
I think what you mean is you want God to give you reason or incentive, that is different and that is possible through spirituality.

A claim to know god empowers the knower not the god.

And that is the point, for you to be empowered, not God. It is through spirituality we learn and fellowship with God for our own benefit and that we may eventually help others.
Spirituality is the change in lifestyle and mind through application, this is the avenue you should pursue and what God offers.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 5:21:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:02:41 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:55:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you are a robot that God has to make you?

I didn't say he "had" to do that, or that was the minimal that would make me believe. I'm sure there is some convoluted series of events or coincidences that might, over time gradually convert me to a believe, but I'm not going to waste time speculating what they may be. My solution is simply, certain, and easy. It's really the best course of action.

The best course of action is to wait for God to poke your brain lol? okay so then I have no say whatsoever regarding your spirituality? okay then why are you here?

you have God's permission to pursue and apply anytime you are ready....

And God has my permission to instill belief in my brain. It's clearly the superior solution. It can be done instantly, without fail and will result in a complete convert. Leaving it up to me will take time, is subject to fail, and will be dependent upon the whims of my personality and the chance events I'm exposed to. Clearly a waste of time.

God doesn't want to implant your brain, he wants you to apply and learn so your belief will become a reality. Your solution is silly.

Let's say God does "stick a finger in your brain", what then? what has changed about you personally?? except for the fact God poked you? nothing at all... it will only feed all the void in the current state of your soul, causing you to react and question rather than obey and listen. Only you will pursue and love God by choice, not force.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. You are suggesting a scenario where God partakes in a course of action but fails in it? That's absurd. God is omnipotent and omniscience. Nothing fails except that God wills it. I'm suggesting that God acts in a manner such that success is guaranteed. Such outcomes that I still an a disbeliever are nonsensical. My scenario has God's success in the matter as a given.

No, God does not fail you, you fail Him, and you have and continue to do so. You will learn that through spirituality (lifestyle). Read that again because I'm not sure you got it or believe me.

And I'm not suggesting that God force anything. I give him permission and consent to do so. That's not force. That's submission. Does not the Bible preach submission to God?

Yes, when are you going to be submissive lol?? submissiveness would fall in the form of what I've said here, correct? but you are not willing to be submissive, that is obvious by your own words.

Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires.

God doesn't want only your hypnotic/robotic belief, He wants your commitment and pursuit (spirituality).

And he can have it. All he has to do is rewire my brain. If you want to talk about force, how about the fact that Free Will was (allegedly) forced upon me. If we're talking the fate of my immortal soul, with respect to Heaven and Hell, and it is my Free Will that results in the sin that will send me to hell, then I don't want it. I don't want Free Will. God can have it. Sinless perfection minus Free Will is clearly superior to Free Will with the chance of sin.

You just said God has to rewire your brain, that would not be free will. And if you don't want free roam to choose what do you want? Why would you choose anything other than what God wants anyway if that is the case? God just wants good things.
One doesn't have to sin, we can walk in the light.

But no one asked me. God didn't ask me if I wanted Free Will. He forced it upon me.

Well maybe it isn't "free" in the sense we get to do whatever we like with no consequences, but it is still will. We still have our own will.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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12/21/2015 5:25:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:21:17 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:02:41 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:55:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you are a robot that God has to make you?

I didn't say he "had" to do that, or that was the minimal that would make me believe. I'm sure there is some convoluted series of events or coincidences that might, over time gradually convert me to a believe, but I'm not going to waste time speculating what they may be. My solution is simply, certain, and easy. It's really the best course of action.

The best course of action is to wait for God to poke your brain lol?

Yes, and I outlined the reasons why. If you have some sort of rebuttal, you'll have to do better than "lol"

okay so then I have no say whatsoever regarding your spirituality? okay then why are you here?

You'll have to clarify. Here as in the religious forum? DDO? The Internet? Planet Earth? This box canyon?

you have God's permission to pursue and apply anytime you are ready....

And God has my permission to instill belief in my brain. It's clearly the superior solution. It can be done instantly, without fail and will result in a complete convert. Leaving it up to me will take time, is subject to fail, and will be dependent upon the whims of my personality and the chance events I'm exposed to. Clearly a waste of time.

God doesn't want to implant your brain, he wants you to apply and learn so your belief will become a reality. Your solution is silly.

Why doesn't god tell me that himself, then?

Let's say God does "stick a finger in your brain", what then? what has changed about you personally?? except for the fact God poked you? nothing at all... it will only feed all the void in the current state of your soul, causing you to react and question rather than obey and listen. Only you will pursue and love God by choice, not force.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. You are suggesting a scenario where God partakes in a course of action but fails in it? That's absurd. God is omnipotent and omniscience. Nothing fails except that God wills it. I'm suggesting that God acts in a manner such that success is guaranteed. Such outcomes that I still an a disbeliever are nonsensical. My scenario has God's success in the matter as a given.

No, God does not fail you, you fail Him, and you have and continue to do so. You will learn that through spirituality (lifestyle). Read that again because I'm not sure you got it or believe me.

Exactly! Since I'm such a failure, it'd be better for God to just do it himself.

And I'm not suggesting that God force anything. I give him permission and consent to do so. That's not force. That's submission. Does not the Bible preach submission to God?

Yes, when are you going to be submissive lol?? submissiveness would fall in the form of what I've said here, correct? but you are not willing to be submissive, that is obvious by your own words.

Not really. I just submitted myself to God's whim. It's clearly his whim that I remain an atheist. Who are you to argue with God? What next? You question whether or not he needs a Starship?

Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires.

God doesn't want only your hypnotic/robotic belief, He wants your commitment and pursuit (spirituality).

And he can have it. All he has to do is rewire my brain. If you want to talk about force, how about the fact that Free Will was (allegedly) forced upon me. If we're talking the fate of my immortal soul, with respect to Heaven and Hell, and it is my Free Will that results in the sin that will send me to hell, then I don't want it. I don't want Free Will. God can have it. Sinless perfection minus Free Will is clearly superior to Free Will with the chance of sin.

You just said God has to rewire your brain, that would not be free will. And if you don't want free roam to choose what do you want? Why would you choose anything other than what God wants anyway if that is the case? God just wants good things.

Then he can instill that in my brain. I am using my Free Will to give him permission to do so.

One doesn't have to sin, we can walk in the light.

Not according to any Bible I've read.

But no one asked me. God didn't ask me if I wanted Free Will. He forced it upon me.

Well maybe it isn't "free" in the sense we get to do whatever we like with no consequences, but it is still will. We still have our own will.

Apparently not. I will it that God should instill belief in me.
Pollux
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12/21/2015 5:51:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I would simply need to be compelled. Irrefutable evidence (like for gravity or chemistry which cannot be denied) would go the trick.
missmedic
Posts: 387
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12/21/2015 6:03:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:06:21 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:26:30 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

God and god alone could change my mind. However god does not want to or he can't.
God could change your mind?? changing your mind would be the opposite of what you want, you don't want God to change it because that would be manipulation without your full voluntary choice, you want to change it.
I think what you mean is you want God to give you reason or incentive, that is different and that is possible through spirituality.

You claim to know what I want and what I think, why? does it empowers you?

A claim to know god empowers the knower not the god.

I empower my self without belief in any gods.

And that is the point, for you to be empowered, not God. It is through spirituality we learn and fellowship with God for our own benefit and that we may eventually help others.
Spirituality is the change in lifestyle and mind through application, this is the avenue you should pursue and what God offers.

Religion has a dogmatic and unquestionable assembly of rules that need to be followed without question. Spirituality invites you to reason it all, to question it all and to decide your actions and assume the consequences.
True spirituality is something that is found deep within oneself. It is our way of loving, accepting and relating to the world and people around us. It cannot be found in a church or by believing in a certain way.
A person can be spiritual without owning belief in a god. So if there's no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods, then there's no practical difference between the existence and non-existence of any gods.
DanMGTOW
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12/21/2015 6:17:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

how about your god revealing itself to me?
is your god even capable of doing that?
if so why don't you ask your god why it doesn't want me to believe?
Pase66
Posts: 775
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12/21/2015 6:24:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:17:57 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

how about your god revealing itself to me?
is your god even capable of doing that?
if so why don't you ask your god why it doesn't want me to believe?

"Your god"? You do realize I'm an atheist, right? It's in the second paragraph....
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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 6:29:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:10:47 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

Empirical data would be nice, but for me to be satisfied it would take extraordinary evidence and lots of it. That is not to be difficult, but the claim is spectacular and the evidence will need to match.

Best case scenario would be a face to face with whichever god turned out to be true. Again, I know this seems like I am being difficult.

Would a photograph not do,

Actually, Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds, a face to face with God? is that whilst you're still human or after you die?

However, I have no assumptions about how a god might be other than more knowledge and power than human beings (honestly, I'm not really sure about that).

Really, A God who is less powerful than humans, is a really puny perception of God you have.

I would hope to be able to distinguish between a god and completely natural life unknown to us. Most importantly, after this meeting I will need time to consider the experience for anything unexplainable (e.g. supernatural?) and if the answers provided have consistency, depth, insight, etc. Overall, I think it is a hard question to answer without actually being there and knowing exactly what a god is.

So after you meet God you also want proof of supernaturalism. Hmmm, Try again.

Finally, assuming I was convinced, I can't imagine why such a being would desire any worship or deserve it considering their absence/indifference throughout human history. But, that is probably for another thread.

Because it's not that God demands it, but instead rather that it is for the best possible outcome, to be united with your creator in an eternal ever reciprocal loving relationship.

It's not that we have to worship God without getting anything back. That is just ridiculous.
johnlubba
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12/21/2015 6:33:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

If you are waiting on empirical data to prove a being that is not subject to the physical laws of the universe, then you will be waiting a long time, The question of God is not an empirical issue but a question of faith, you have to chose but it seems that you have already made your choice. Good luck.
johnlubba
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12/21/2015 6:34:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:26:30 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/21/2015 3:15:10 AM, Pase66 wrote:
I would like to talk to people of all persuasions on this forum. My question is, to atheists, agnostics, theists, and any other group out there, is what would change your mind? To atheists, what would convince you that there is a god? To theists, what would convince you that there is no god? And please, don't answer "this would convince me, but that will never happen, because what there already is to explain it is enough" or "the other side is so stupid that I'm already comfortable in my stance". What I mainly want to do here is to see what would convince other people, and have a discussion on the merits of their criteria.

Let me go first: I, as an atheist, would be wholeheartedly convinced by empirical data. If there was enough evidence, enough observations and testable hypotheses that proved to be true, that would convince me. Now, what about you?

God and god alone could change my mind. However god does not want to or he can't.

I used to feel the same way, then my mind changed.

A claim to know god empowers the knower not the god.

irrelevant.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you want to be a robot.

Good luck
Pollux
Posts: 241
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12/21/2015 6:41:27 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

How stupid.

It's the equivalent of showing someone your car to prove the color to them.

Or are you saying that your god is so weak that he can't prove his existence without simultaneously changing the person into a robot?
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/21/2015 6:42:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

I disagree with the claim that it would make me a robot. Note all I'm asking is that he instill a belief in me. If he can harden a Pharoah's heart, he can certainly do the opposite. I'm not asking he remove my Free Will, or make it is I never sin.

Then again, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why being a robot without Free Will is somehow bad.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 6:47:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:41:27 PM, Pollux wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

How stupid.

It's the equivalent of showing someone your car to prove the color to them.

Or are you saying that your god is so weak that he can't prove his existence without simultaneously changing the person into a robot?

No, but why should God reveal himself to you, STUPID,

That would mean your actions from here on would be false, because you then know God exists, 100%, instead of living by faith, which means you don't know 100%.

If you knew God existed for sure, then you would not act according to your own desires instead you would act as if you wanted to please God and that would then be false.

It has to be a question of faith.

Stupid.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 6:48:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:42:19 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

I disagree with the claim that it would make me a robot. Note all I'm asking is that he instill a belief in me. If he can harden a Pharoah's heart, he can certainly do the opposite. I'm not asking he remove my Free Will, or make it is I never sin.

Then again, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why being a robot without Free Will is somehow bad.

So you are asking God to program you to believe in him, Yeah, sounds like a robot in the making to me.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/21/2015 6:51:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:48:16 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:42:19 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

I disagree with the claim that it would make me a robot. Note all I'm asking is that he instill a belief in me. If he can harden a Pharoah's heart, he can certainly do the opposite. I'm not asking he remove my Free Will, or make it is I never sin.

Then again, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why being a robot without Free Will is somehow bad.


So you are asking God to program you to believe in him, Yeah, sounds like a robot in the making to me.

We are already programmed with a number of behaviors. So we are already like this. If you want to call it a robot, then so be it. Since we are already like this to some degree, I see no object to adding a simple belief in a deity to the mix.

Again, I see no convincing argument as to why this should be considered bad.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 6:58:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:51:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:48:16 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:42:19 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

I disagree with the claim that it would make me a robot. Note all I'm asking is that he instill a belief in me. If he can harden a Pharoah's heart, he can certainly do the opposite. I'm not asking he remove my Free Will, or make it is I never sin.

Then again, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why being a robot without Free Will is somehow bad.


So you are asking God to program you to believe in him, Yeah, sounds like a robot in the making to me.

We are already programmed with a number of behaviors. So we are already like this. If you want to call it a robot, then so be it. Since we are already like this to some degree, I see no object to adding a simple belief in a deity to the mix.

Again, I see no convincing argument as to why this should be considered bad.

Because if you knew for sure and without question that God existed, then you would feel impelled to act in a way that is pleasing to him, and thus give up all the thing and ways you would act as if you never believed he existed.
That's why.
Pollux
Posts: 241
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12/21/2015 7:06:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:47:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:41:27 PM, Pollux wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

How stupid.

It's the equivalent of showing someone your car to prove the color to them.

Or are you saying that your god is so weak that he can't prove his existence without simultaneously changing the person into a robot?


No, but why should God reveal himself to you, STUPID,

That would mean your actions from here on would be false, because you then know God exists, 100%, instead of living by faith, which means you don't know 100%.

If you knew God existed for sure, then you would not act according to your own desires instead you would act as if you wanted to please God and that would then be false.

It has to be a question of faith.


Stupid.

It's not my fault that your god is so stupid and weak that he is unable to convince us of his existence without making us robots.

We know nothing about how gravity works. It's completely mysterious. Yet we all know it exists.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 7:07:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:25:42 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:21:17 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:02:41 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:55:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.

So you are a robot that God has to make you?


The best course of action is to wait for God to poke your brain lol?

Yes, and I outlined the reasons why. If you have some sort of rebuttal, you'll have to do better than "lol"

Yes, and I outlined the reasons it is silly.

okay so then I have no say whatsoever regarding your spirituality? okay then why are you here?

You'll have to clarify. Here as in the religious forum? DDO? The Internet? Planet Earth? This box canyon?

I have clarified, what did I not?


you have God's permission to pursue and apply anytime you are ready....

And God has my permission to instill belief in my brain. It's clearly the superior solution. It can be done instantly, without fail and will result in a complete convert. Leaving it up to me will take time, is subject to fail, and will be dependent upon the whims of my personality and the chance events I'm exposed to. Clearly a waste of time.

God doesn't want to implant your brain, he wants you to apply and learn so your belief will become a reality. Your solution is silly.

Why doesn't god tell me that himself, then?

Because I just told you and you have yet to apply anything to your life...we are vessels and we learn from one another. Would you question me if I showed you how to run guitar scales if you didn't already know?

Let's say God does "stick a finger in your brain", what then? what has changed about you personally?? except for the fact God poked you? nothing at all... it will only feed all the void in the current state of your soul, causing you to react and question rather than obey and listen. Only you will pursue and love God by choice, not force.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. You are suggesting a scenario where God partakes in a course of action but fails in it? That's absurd. God is omnipotent and omniscience. Nothing fails except that God wills it. I'm suggesting that God acts in a manner such that success is guaranteed. Such outcomes that I still an a disbeliever are nonsensical. My scenario has God's success in the matter as a given.

No, God does not fail you, you fail Him, and you have and continue to do so. You will learn that through spirituality (lifestyle). Read that again because I'm not sure you got it or believe me.

Exactly! Since I'm such a failure, it'd be better for God to just do it himself.

No, it is time to fix the failure through spirituality, God is not the failure.

And I'm not suggesting that God force anything. I give him permission and consent to do so. That's not force. That's submission. Does not the Bible preach submission to God?

Yes, when are you going to be submissive lol?? submissiveness would fall in the form of what I've said here, correct? but you are not willing to be submissive, that is obvious by your own words.

Not really. I just submitted myself to God's whim. It's clearly his whim that I remain an atheist. Who are you to argue with God? What next? You question whether or not he needs a Starship?

No you haven't, you are an atheist.

Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires.

God doesn't want only your hypnotic/robotic belief, He wants your commitment and pursuit (spirituality).

And he can have it. All he has to do is rewire my brain. If you want to talk about force, how about the fact that Free Will was (allegedly) forced upon me. If we're talking the fate of my immortal soul, with respect to Heaven and Hell, and it is my Free Will that results in the sin that will send me to hell, then I don't want it. I don't want Free Will. God can have it. Sinless perfection minus Free Will is clearly superior to Free Will with the chance of sin.

You just said God has to rewire your brain, that would not be free will. And if you don't want free roam to choose what do you want? Why would you choose anything other than what God wants anyway if that is the case? God just wants good things.

Then he can instill that in my brain. I am using my Free Will to give him permission to do so.

Then use your free will to apply spirituality, rather than giving God permission to change your brain lol.. I repeat "Spirituality deals with everything in the right moment and timing, because it is through your life and choices that you will learn about God, begin to love and trust God, not by force or some moment of revelation but through application. Be willing to move your position and attitude and God will give you what you heart desires."

One doesn't have to sin, we can walk in the light.

Not according to any Bible I've read.

Show me.... being susceptible to sin doesn't mean we have to sin, or just because we have sinned doesn't mean we have to keep sinning, read John 15.

But no one asked me. God didn't ask me if I wanted Free Will. He forced it upon me.

Well maybe it isn't "free" in the sense we get to do whatever we like with no consequences, but it is still will. We still have our own will.

Apparently not. I will it that God should instill belief in me.

Instill it yourself, that is not God's job. If you want "incentive" then apply spirituality, that is different.
Pollux
Posts: 241
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12/21/2015 7:08:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 6:58:51 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:51:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:48:16 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:42:19 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

I disagree with the claim that it would make me a robot. Note all I'm asking is that he instill a belief in me. If he can harden a Pharoah's heart, he can certainly do the opposite. I'm not asking he remove my Free Will, or make it is I never sin.

Then again, I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why being a robot without Free Will is somehow bad.


So you are asking God to program you to believe in him, Yeah, sounds like a robot in the making to me.

We are already programmed with a number of behaviors. So we are already like this. If you want to call it a robot, then so be it. Since we are already like this to some degree, I see no object to adding a simple belief in a deity to the mix.

Again, I see no convincing argument as to why this should be considered bad.


Because if you knew for sure and without question that God existed, then you would feel impelled to act in a way that is pleasing to him, and thus give up all the thing and ways you would act as if you never believed he existed.
That's why.

Seems like a good thing. Like my employer telling me how to do my job properly. And my employer being visible in front of me. That helps.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/21/2015 7:09:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:06:09 PM, Pollux wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:47:05 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:41:27 PM, Pollux wrote:
At 12/21/2015 6:35:20 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/21/2015 4:14:25 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
God can stick a finger in my brain and make me believe in him any time he wants. He has my permission to do so.


So you want to be a robot.

Good luck

How stupid.

It's the equivalent of showing someone your car to prove the color to them.

Or are you saying that your god is so weak that he can't prove his existence without simultaneously changing the person into a robot?


No, but why should God reveal himself to you, STUPID,

That would mean your actions from here on would be false, because you then know God exists, 100%, instead of living by faith, which means you don't know 100%.

If you knew God existed for sure, then you would not act according to your own desires instead you would act as if you wanted to please God and that would then be false.

It has to be a question of faith.


Stupid.

It's not my fault that your god is so stupid and weak that he is unable to convince us of his existence without making us robots.

We know nothing about how gravity works. It's completely mysterious. Yet we all know it exists.

Whenever arguing with an idiot I try to make sure he isn't arguing with one back.

Good luck