Total Posts:235|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Free will

wush
Posts: 330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"
BE HAPPY!! =D
you are beautiful, don't let anyone tell you you're not
you're 100X more beautiful when you smile, not that you need it
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:46:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
We cannot see beyond ourselves so I honestly cannot say . . . ?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wush
Posts: 330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:48:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:46:52 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
We cannot see beyond ourselves so I honestly cannot say . . . ?

do you think you have free will?
BE HAPPY!! =D
you are beautiful, don't let anyone tell you you're not
you're 100X more beautiful when you smile, not that you need it
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:51:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

MY PUNY MORTAL HUMAN BRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We should call Chuck Norris on this one . . .
But to be serious since we cannot see beyond ourselves how can we ever know its like a bacterium does it know it is constantly dividing but then again they have no brains but if we didn't have free will could we ask these questions?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:54:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:16 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:46:52 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
We cannot see beyond ourselves so I honestly cannot say . . . ?

do you think you have free will?

I assume but I do not know so it cannot be determined by me it must be determined by an outside observer with true free will and power beyond us but if that were to happen it would prove freedom of will false and it creates a entire paradox . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
wush
Posts: 330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels
BE HAPPY!! =D
you are beautiful, don't let anyone tell you you're not
you're 100X more beautiful when you smile, not that you need it
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:00:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels

That's outside of the analogy's context.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wush
Posts: 330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:01:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 3:00:00 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels

That's outside of the analogy's context.

ok fine. are you denying that our past shapes who we are?
BE HAPPY!! =D
you are beautiful, don't let anyone tell you you're not
you're 100X more beautiful when you smile, not that you need it
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:37:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 3:01:40 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:00:00 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels

That's outside of the analogy's context.

ok fine. are you denying that our past shapes who we are?

But that does not imply the future is written . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
wush
Posts: 330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:39:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 3:37:40 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:01:40 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:00:00 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels

That's outside of the analogy's context.

ok fine. are you denying that our past shapes who we are?

But that does not imply the future is written . . .

i'm not saying it is written, but rather that our actions are not a result of free will
BE HAPPY!! =D
you are beautiful, don't let anyone tell you you're not
you're 100X more beautiful when you smile, not that you need it
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:46:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 3:39:25 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:37:40 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:01:40 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 3:00:00 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:55:31 AM, wush wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

but don't forget the dirt that sticks to the bicycles wheels

That's outside of the analogy's context.

ok fine. are you denying that our past shapes who we are?

But that does not imply the future is written . . .

i'm not saying it is written, but rather that our actions are not a result of free will

We need a robot to solve this problem . . . but then it would say it doesn't exist due to the fact we make it solve this problem and then t will say it does exist beacuse it can question the problem (paradox) so the only one who can truly judge is a addicted gambler . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 5:55:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It depends how we define free will. And no-one is ever going to agree on a definition, so the answer is always going to be 'it depends'.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:40:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

you realize I hope Geo that on the same grounds the shadow you cast ahead of your equally does not control were the bike goes.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2010 3:42:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 5:55:23 AM, Kinesis wrote:
It depends how we define free will. And no-one is ever going to agree on a definition, so the answer is always going to be 'it depends'.

the ability to make your own choice. how hard is that. what room is there for opinion to vary?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 7:51:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 5:55:23 AM, Kinesis wrote:
It depends how we define free will. And no-one is ever going to agree on a definition, so the answer is always going to be 'it depends'.

EXACTAMUNDO!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 8:19:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes free will exists. To say otherwise at least for humans is foolish. However if you can change my mind please do.

In terms to hos ones past can shape them. Well, you can take two people and give them the exact same settings from birth. Lets say for example you take two people who were abused by their father. This may define their future but it doesn't have to be the same definition. One could end up being abusive to their kids and one could choose to break the cycle. SO even though our past may define us the definition isnt the same for everyone.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 8:30:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

no... it's all the stuff about him... and in him that do that.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 8:37:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
ask a shadow:

The surrounding penumbra asked the shadow:
"It seems like you were bending down, and now you're rising up; your hair was tied up, and now it's hanging down loosely; you were sitting and now you're standing; you were moving, and now you're still. Why all the commotion?"
The shadow said:
"Why are you searching for an answer to these trivial questions? I am what I am but I don't know why I'm this way. I'm like a cicada who sheds its dead discarded shell, and like a snake who sloughs off its skin. I'm similar to those things in some respects but not in others. When the blazing sun is shining in the sky I grow larger. When the darkness of night settles I'm replaced by other things. Don't I have to wait for each of these things to occur before becoming something? It would then seem like there are so many things I'd always be waiting on! When things arise then I arise along with them. When things pass then I pass along with them. When things burst forth in brightness then I burst forth in brightness with them. Things just burst forth in brightness, so why would I need to ask why that happens?"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 8:39:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 8:37:28 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
ask a shadow:

I think a better translation says: Do I depend on something to be the way that I am?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 9:41:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 8:19:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
Yes free will exists. To say otherwise at least for humans is foolish. However if you can change my mind please do.
It's foolish to think that free will exists irrespective of its definition.

In terms to how one's past can shape them. Well, you can take two people and give them the exact same settings from birth.
Not really. There will alway be drastic differences not matter how much you try.

Lets say for example you take two people who were abused by their father. This may define their future but it doesn't have to be the same definition.
There is virtually an infinite amount of variables that can be different between these 2 people. Two different people, 2 different fathers, different environments, etc.

One could end up being abusive to their kids and one could choose to break the cycle. SO even though our past may define us the definition isnt the same for everyone.
That is correct, however, it does not prove your point. That just means that there were different inputs fed into a system and you got different outputs. You can do the same with a computer.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 11:44:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 9:41:57 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 10/13/2010 8:19:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
Yes free will exists. To say otherwise at least for humans is foolish. However if you can change my mind please do.
It's foolish to think that free will exists irrespective of its definition.

In terms to how one's past can shape them. Well, you can take two people and give them the exact same settings from birth.
Not really. There will alway be drastic differences not matter how much you try.

Lets say for example you take two people who were abused by their father. This may define their future but it doesn't have to be the same definition.
There is virtually an infinite amount of variables that can be different between these 2 people. Two different people, 2 different fathers, different environments, etc.

One could end up being abusive to their kids and one could choose to break the cycle. SO even though our past may define us the definition isnt the same for everyone.
That is correct, however, it does not prove your point. That just means that there were different inputs fed into a system and you got different outputs. You can do the same with a computer.

So let me put it this way. Put two people who are 100 percent the same in 100 percent the same circumstances. Now take a look at probability. Lets say that for 20 years the two have had the exact same scenario. Now you walk up to each and ask. Yes or No? Given what i stated it is highly likely that they will choose the same answer be it either yes or now. However a distinct no matter ho small possibility exists that they will answer this question differently. One such reason for this difference is that this person has the free will to choose which answer to select.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 11:51:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 11:44:38 AM, Kahvan wrote:
So let me put it this way. Put two people who are 100 percent the same in 100 percent the same circumstances.

So the same person.. in the same circumstances.

Now take a look at probability. Lets say that for 20 years the two have had the exact same scenario. Now you walk up to each and ask. Yes or No? Given what i stated it is highly likely that they will choose the same answer be it either yes or now. However a distinct no matter ho small possibility exists that they will answer this question differently. One such reason for this difference is that this person has the free will to choose which answer to select.

umm... no.

if I look at what I did in certain circumstances.. and then consider the same exact situation again...
I generally recall having done the same thing..

and if I recall differently.. I'd think I'd blame it on inconsistant memory... NOT the past "choice" having changed.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 11:53:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 11:51:25 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/13/2010 11:44:38 AM, Kahvan wrote:
So let me put it this way. Put two people who are 100 percent the same in 100 percent the same circumstances.

So the same person.. in the same circumstances.

Now take a look at probability. Lets say that for 20 years the two have had the exact same scenario. Now you walk up to each and ask. Yes or No? Given what i stated it is highly likely that they will choose the same answer be it either yes or now. However a distinct no matter ho small possibility exists that they will answer this question differently. One such reason for this difference is that this person has the free will to choose which answer to select.

umm... no.

if I look at what I did in certain circumstances.. and then consider the same exact situation again...
I generally recall having done the same thing..

and if I recall differently.. I'd think I'd blame it on inconsistant memory... NOT the past "choice" having changed.

I dont follow you... please elaborate ^-^
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 11:53:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
TWO different people Pretty much CANNOT be 100Percent the same... and neither can their circumstances.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 11:55:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 11:53:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
I dont follow you... please elaborate ^-^

the only person 100Percent as I was in a situation was Me... Then...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 12:33:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 11:44:38 AM, Kahvan wrote:
So let me put it this way. Put two people who are 100 percent the same in 100 percent the same circumstances.
Then they will do exactly the same thing.

Now take a look at probability. Lets say that for 20 years the two have had the exact same scenario. Now you walk up to each and ask. Yes or No?
Yes or no what? What's the question?

Given what i stated it is highly likely that they will choose the same answer be it either yes or now. However a distinct no matter ho small possibility exists that they will answer this question differently.
No.

One such reason for this difference is that this person has the free will to choose which answer to select.
Begging the question.

Let's try it another way. Take two people who we will call x and y, respectively. They are exactly the same, so x = y = 25. Now let's add 20 years of the exact same thing to them: x + 20 = 45; y + 20 = 45. Now let's say we ask them a question (let's say the question is the same as divide by 5): so we have (x + 20) / 5 = 9 and (y + 20) / 5 = 9; same answer!

So, given the same "equipment" (software & hardware) and given the same input (experiences), you will get the same results.

At 10/13/2010 11:53:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
At 10/13/2010 11:51:25 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/13/2010 11:44:38 AM, Kahvan wrote:
So let me put it this way. Put two people who are 100 percent the same in 100 percent the same circumstances.

So the same person.. in the same circumstances.

Now take a look at probability. Lets say that for 20 years the two have had the exact same scenario. Now you walk up to each and ask. Yes or No? Given what i stated it is highly likely that they will choose the same answer be it either yes or now. However a distinct no matter ho small possibility exists that they will answer this question differently. One such reason for this difference is that this person has the free will to choose which answer to select.

umm... no.

if I look at what I did in certain circumstances.. and then consider the same exact situation again...
I generally recall having done the same thing..

and if I recall differently.. I'd think I'd blame it on inconsistant memory... NOT the past "choice" having changed.

I dont follow you... please elaborate ^-^
Hmm. Looks like misunderstanding mattrodstrom is a common thing. I'm beginning to suspect it's not me.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 12:40:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 2:48:02 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/12/2010 2:44:32 AM, wush wrote:
do we have free will?
because every action we perform, every choice we make.. was influenced by something else. something that we had no control over. so is making a choice really free will or simply our "programming"

Everything in the past is the trail we leave behind. Does the bicycle trail determine where the bike goes? Does the blur behind the track runner determine where he is running to?

Lol, what an absolutely horrible depiction of what free will and determinism is. This is what happens when you start idolizing BS "philosophers" like David Icke who care more about sounding pretty and alliteration than depicting accurate descriptions.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 12:41:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/12/2010 5:55:23 AM, Kinesis wrote:
It depends how we define free will. And no-one is ever going to agree on a definition, so the answer is always going to be 'it depends'.

No, there's an accurate philosophical consensus of defining free will and/or determinism.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2010 12:41:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/13/2010 8:19:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
Yes free will exists. To say otherwise at least for humans is foolish. However if you can change my mind please do.

Debate?
President of DDO