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Generational Punishment in the Bible

distraff
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12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 5:45:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Also, I wouldn't say it is just "punishment" but more reaping and sowing, cause and effect (karma). What we choose to do has eternal ripples.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
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12/21/2015 5:55:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

How does the healing of Naaman tie into generational sin? Please explain so I can better understand the connection you've made there.

I do believe that there are sins that are passed down generationally, but even those things can be overcome.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


We know that Cain bore the iniquity of his parents as we all have, but God tested him before he slew his brother Abel. Cain had a choice.

When you look at example of generational things, like Alcoholism we see that happen may times on a generational level, but that can be broken through obedience to Christ.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 6:18:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:55:53 PM, be_diligent wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

How does the healing of Naaman tie into generational sin? Please explain so I can better understand the connection you've made there.

Its right there. His descendants were given leprosy.

I do believe that there are sins that are passed down generationally, but even those things can be overcome.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


This only says that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. In other words he is not morally responsible for the sins of his father. However there are many examples where children are punished for the sins of their fathers.

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

When you look at example of generational things, like Alcoholism we see that happen may times on a generational level, but that can be broken through obedience to Christ.

Exactly, which is why generational punishment makes no sense. My Grandpa was verbally abusive to his wife and had a strong temper. I have about 35 cousins and there are a lot of differences between us and most of us are very different than our grandpa. We don't share his problems.

You don't necessarily turn out like your old man.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:
inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 7:38:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Actually the teenage years can be very transformative. You are greatly underestimating the impact of adolescence. I have about 35 cousins and we are very diverse and very different people. We are not all exactly the same as our Grandfather.

Some of us are moderate Mormons like our grandfather. Others are Jack Mormons, very strong Mormons, Protestants, Atheists, and Agnostics.

The bible doesn't just punish to one generation. It punishes to 3-4 generations, sometimes to 10, and at other times it punishes all generations. It is one thing to say that chances are that I will turn out like my father, but it is another thing to say I will turn out like my great-great-grandfather.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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12/21/2015 7:45:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are the only one struggling with the generational punishment which is well documented in the verses. Here visiting means following the generations after I.e the children till the third and fourth generation. Jesus too would have lied to cover up how spiteful God was.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 7:58:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:38:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Actually the teenage years can be very transformative. You are greatly underestimating the impact of adolescence. I have about 35 cousins and we are very diverse and very different people. We are not all exactly the same as our Grandfather.

I never said you would be like your grandfather, did I? Sins don't make a person.

Some of us are moderate Mormons like our grandfather. Others are Jack Mormons, very strong Mormons, Protestants, Atheists, and Agnostics.

The bible doesn't just punish to one generation. It punishes to 3-4 generations, sometimes to 10, and at other times it punishes all generations. It is one thing to say that chances are that I will turn out like my father, but it is another thing to say I will turn out like my great-great-grandfather.

And I explained why God visits them, not punishes them. Acknowledging is not the same as punishing. God wants me to acknowledge, then change can be made.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 8:00:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:45:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are the only one struggling with the generational punishment which is well documented in the verses. Here visiting means following the generations after I.e the children till the third and fourth generation. Jesus too would have lied to cover up how spiteful God was.

Generational acknowledgement, which you should know of and which in turns shows me your ignorance yet again. You are a fraud.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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12/21/2015 8:02:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

How are the children guilty till the third and fourth generation when they were not the ones committing the sin nor are the ones who committed the sins still around. Your God is a bumbling genocidal maniac.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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12/21/2015 8:06:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:00:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:45:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are the only one struggling with the generational punishment which is well documented in the verses. Here visiting means following the generations after I.e the children till the third and fourth generation. Jesus too would have lied to cover up how spiteful God was.

Generational acknowledgement, which you should know of and which in turns shows me your ignorance yet again. You are a fraud.

You have followed Jesus a convicted blasphemous liar and a lunatic. The people of his time judged him and found him guilty. Your revisionist attempts cannot change the facts. It is in the bible.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 8:22:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:02:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

How are the children guilty till the third and fourth generation when they were not the ones committing the sin nor are the ones who committed the sins still around. Your God is a bumbling genocidal maniac.

They may or may not be guilty, it depends upon the situation of course but this does not mean it does not exist, the children may be completely blind to it, but God sees it. Spiritual reality is not always seen by the individual....but the individual may be enlightened to it, that is what spirituality is.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 8:23:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

I know that there are other definitions of the word but the context the word is used in is important. From the context of the verse my definition is the obvious translation and the New International Version of the bible along with other translations agree.

When God says he is visiting sins on someone, I can tell you for a fact the bible is not talking about Tourism, he is talking about the inflicting of a penalty.

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

But not all family members make the same mistakes as their ancestors.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 8:25:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:06:29 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:00:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:45:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are the only one struggling with the generational punishment which is well documented in the verses. Here visiting means following the generations after I.e the children till the third and fourth generation. Jesus too would have lied to cover up how spiteful God was.

Generational acknowledgement, which you should know of and which in turns shows me your ignorance yet again. You are a fraud.

You have followed Jesus a convicted blasphemous liar and a lunatic. The people of his time judged him and found him guilty. Your revisionist attempts cannot change the facts. It is in the bible.

The religious idiots plotted against truth and light and there is no way around that fact, what you said is completely irrelevant but you are right, there is nothing you or I could do to change the truth, though you still try anyway.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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12/21/2015 8:27:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:58:24 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:38:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Actually the teenage years can be very transformative. You are greatly underestimating the impact of adolescence. I have about 35 cousins and we are very diverse and very different people. We are not all exactly the same as our Grandfather.

I never said you would be like your grandfather, did I? Sins don't make a person.

The bible punishes to the third or fourth generation. If this is just because kids do the same thing as their parents then it follows that people today commit the same crimes as their great-great grandparents in the 1930s. This is often not the case.

Some of us are moderate Mormons like our grandfather. Others are Jack Mormons, very strong Mormons, Protestants, Atheists, and Agnostics.

The bible doesn't just punish to one generation. It punishes to 3-4 generations, sometimes to 10, and at other times it punishes all generations. It is one thing to say that chances are that I will turn out like my father, but it is another thing to say I will turn out like my great-great-grandfather.

And I explained why God visits them, not punishes them. Acknowledging is not the same as punishing. God wants me to acknowledge, then change can be made.

See my response to your other post. It is ridiculous to say that "visit" is taking about tourism in this context. When are we going to have a serious discussion and stop playing word games?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 8:30:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:23:14 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

I know that there are other definitions of the word but the context the word is used in is important. From the context of the verse my definition is the obvious translation and the New International Version of the bible along with other translations agree.

When God says he is visiting sins on someone, I can tell you for a fact the bible is not talking about Tourism, he is talking about the inflicting of a penalty.

But you missed what I said, it isn't anymore inflicting a penalty than reaping and sowing is, this is not God's doing but ours.

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

But not all family members make the same mistakes as their ancestors.

No one said this applies to everyone, but applies where it is an issue. It's simple principle and truth, this is no longer a Bible topic but a topic of psychology, go research how we are impacted by our families and surroundings.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/21/2015 8:31:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:27:19 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:58:24 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:38:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Actually the teenage years can be very transformative. You are greatly underestimating the impact of adolescence. I have about 35 cousins and we are very diverse and very different people. We are not all exactly the same as our Grandfather.

I never said you would be like your grandfather, did I? Sins don't make a person.

The bible punishes to the third or fourth generation. If this is just because kids do the same thing as their parents then it follows that people today commit the same crimes as their great-great grandparents in the 1930s. This is often not the case.

The it doesn't apply...

Some of us are moderate Mormons like our grandfather. Others are Jack Mormons, very strong Mormons, Protestants, Atheists, and Agnostics.

The bible doesn't just punish to one generation. It punishes to 3-4 generations, sometimes to 10, and at other times it punishes all generations. It is one thing to say that chances are that I will turn out like my father, but it is another thing to say I will turn out like my great-great-grandfather.

And I explained why God visits them, not punishes them. Acknowledging is not the same as punishing. God wants me to acknowledge, then change can be made.

See my response to your other post. It is ridiculous to say that "visit" is taking about tourism in this context. When are we going to have a serious discussion and stop playing word games?

Why?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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12/21/2015 8:37:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:22:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:02:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

How are the children guilty till the third and fourth generation when they were not the ones committing the sin nor are the ones who committed the sins still around. Your God is a bumbling genocidal maniac.

They may or may not be guilty, it depends upon the situation of course but this does not mean it does not exist, the children may be completely blind to it, but God sees it. Spiritual reality is not always seen by the individual....but the individual may be enlightened to it, that is what spirituality is.

You are profoundly stupid. To say God sees sin in the yet unborn children who are 3 to 4 generations removed from the person committing the sin is as clouded as ones mind can get.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/22/2015 2:13:04 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

How do you know? Anybody confessing to you the sins of your fathers? How is your nature any differant then theirs was? You have the same body as your parents, with the same weaknesses and if you"ve been raised in your parent"s household you"ve got the same issues. You may not see it yet in your life but you are the product of your parents hence the same as because you have the same life.

Mankind as a whole still suffers the sins of their father Adam, you have received the life he had, not the life he had before he ate of the tree. You know, dust to dust ashes to ashes. You are born into separation from God"s Presence which is the state Adam and Eve where left with after the garden. The same life they had.

But what changed after Noah? And what changed for the sons of Abraham? Didn"t Noah find Grace in God"s sight? Didn"t God account righteousness to Abraham? And after the availability to be born of the Holy Spirit via the Life of Christ?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/22/2015 1:09:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:37:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:22:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:02:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

How are the children guilty till the third and fourth generation when they were not the ones committing the sin nor are the ones who committed the sins still around. Your God is a bumbling genocidal maniac.

They may or may not be guilty, it depends upon the situation of course but this does not mean it does not exist, the children may be completely blind to it, but God sees it. Spiritual reality is not always seen by the individual....but the individual may be enlightened to it, that is what spirituality is.

You are profoundly stupid. To say God sees sin in the yet unborn children who are 3 to 4 generations removed from the person committing the sin is as clouded as ones mind can get.

I never said God sees sin in unborn children, what I'm saying is that God is aware of the patterns of sin, this is not an opinion, it's a fact. I've seen these things with my own eyes, it doesn't seem fair at times but it is reality. If your mommy hated God there is a good chance some of that is going to be imparted to you, so having awareness of it is good. Sin impacts not just a fleeting moment, but it effects the spiritual as well, sin creates an atmosphere/baggage in and around people, it's not something that just goes away.

The knowledge is for our own awareness and not for us to live in condemnation, when we are aware of something we then can change what needs to be changed, the sins can be broken of course! It is within our power to end the cycles.
bulproof
Posts: 25,237
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12/22/2015 1:35:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 8:30:05 PM, EtrnlVw
Your god has punished every generation since the the mythical Adam committed his mythical sin.
What was it that all of those generations have done to warrant such an obscene unwarranted sentence?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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12/22/2015 2:07:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 1:09:07 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:37:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:22:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:02:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:54:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:33:22 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:20:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:19:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 7:07:12 PM, distraff wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:43:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/21/2015 5:01:22 PM, distraff wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to start a discussion on what the bible's position on generational punishment. I believe that according to the bible, God often uses generational punishment. Note that this debate is not about whether generational punishment is right or wrong.

Below are some verses to support my position.

Genesis 3
After Adam and Eve are caught eating the forbidden fruit this is God's punishment for them and all of humanity:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat from it,"
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage[b] nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation.

2 Kings 5
The Prophet Elisha tells the General Naaman to bathe in the river Jordan to heal his leprosy. When Naaman offers Elisha a substantial financial reward Elisha refuses and leaves. Elisha's servant Gehazi disagrees with Elisha's refusal and secretly returns to Naaman to collect the reward. Elisha finds out what happens. This is the punishment for Naaman's servant:
27 Naaman"s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever."

Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Well sin is not an element that just vanishes with the wind and dissipates once a decision is made. It is something that lingers, grows and takes root. Ever heard the term "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? that is because we inherit some things as children from our parents, and we are susceptible to the same sins, not that God is bringing them upon us but that they are in the family tree and need to be uprooted at some point.
I've noticed patterns in my family and as well with others, seems to be a fact not an opinion.

I am pretty sure that fruit saying is just a general rule of thumb not an absolute law. You won't necessarily turn out like your old man. In fact many people rebel against the ways of their parents and this is called being a teenager.

Lol, yes a general rule of thumb. Teenage years though do not show much of anything, it is later in life that the results tend to reveal themselves. We have a tendency to return to our own vomit.

The bible punishes children from the third or fourth generation. I am pretty sure I don't commit the same exact sins one of my ancestors did in the 1930s.

Are you sure? Like I said, I don't think it's a punishment anymore than it's reaping and sowing...

Notice the word "visiting" in the above passage, not punish.

You are playing with words. Here is a definition of visit I found online:
Visit:

Yes you are playing with words, here is another definition...
go to see and spend time with (someone) socially
an act of going or coming to see a person or place socially, as a tourist, or for some other purpose.

The word is not just to inflict harm..

inflict (something harmful or unpleasant) on someone.
"the mockery visited upon him by his schoolmates"

Basically this means punish. In fact many translations of the bible uses "punish" in place of "visit" since that word is an older way of saying things.
http://biblehub.com...

Some versions say "visit", others say "punish," "lay down," and "charge".

God visits the sins, because they still remain, they are still in the family because sins take root, they were never dealt with, just a a bad dept.

How are the children guilty till the third and fourth generation when they were not the ones committing the sin nor are the ones who committed the sins still around. Your God is a bumbling genocidal maniac.

They may or may not be guilty, it depends upon the situation of course but this does not mean it does not exist, the children may be completely blind to it, but God sees it. Spiritual reality is not always seen by the individual....but the individual may be enlightened to it, that is what spirituality is.

You are profoundly stupid. To say God sees sin in the yet unborn children who are 3 to 4 generations removed from the person committing the sin is as clouded as ones mind can get.


I never said God sees sin in unborn children, what I'm saying is that God is aware of the patterns of sin, this is not an opinion, it's a fact. I've seen these things with my own eyes, it doesn't seem fair at times but it is reality. If your mommy hated God there is a good chance some of that is going to be imparted to you, so having awareness of it is good. Sin impacts not just a fleeting moment, but it effects the spiritual as well, sin creates an atmosphere/baggage in and around people, it's not something that just goes away.

So how does a mommy's hate implicate the 3rd and 4th generation of unborn babies. Does God just blacklists all future generations in her family up to the third and fourth generation or as in the Jews all future generations. What we see is a liar and lunatic Jesus uttering the words of his bumbling genocidal maniac God. The Jews sent the two packing back to where they came from by crucifying them with the help of Romans.

The knowledge is for our own awareness and not for us to live in condemnation, when we are aware of something we then can change what needs to be changed, the sins can be broken of course! It is within our power to end the cycles.

The thing that has to change is the belief in a liar and a lunatic Jesus and the bumbling genocidal maniac coaching him called Joe for short.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/22/2015 3:31:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 1:35:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:30:05 PM, EtrnlVw
Your god has punished every generation since the the mythical Adam committed his mythical sin.
What was it that all of those generations have done to warrant such an obscene unwarranted sentence?

Lets see here, my God"s Judgements

Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth.
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind.
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

the tree of life also in the midst of the garden

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Not did the Lord God give Adam a life in God"s Presence without shame or fear, but also gave Adam His Judgement on how to keep the Life God gave Adam. And what was that Life you ask.

Lk 3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

That is what Adam died from that day.

And what is the Lord God"s Judgement on that you ask.

Gen 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The first prophesy in the bible of the coming of Christ. And for why, to restore what was lost. Again God"s Judgement.

Hence the results of God"s Judgement are life, to retain the life, and to restore the life that was lost.

Now, what is the result of our own judgement that is of human nature, you ask. Gen chapter 3 explains that. Disregarding God"s Judgement they toke it upon themselves to trust in their own judgement, and lost the Life they where given. Resulting in shame, guilt and eventual death. If they trusted God"s Judgement we would have the life they had because we would receive the life of a son of God, but we have received the life they had after their departure from the garden. Dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. And by God"s Word He gave them in the Garden, He didn"t have to let them have that much.

No other life in the earth is ashamed of it"s presence, except man in the knowing of his own judgement. Man does not suffer God's Judgement, man suffers the result of his own judgement. Actually man is cruel to himself and his own kind judging himself and his own kind.
bulproof
Posts: 25,237
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12/22/2015 3:34:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 3:31:31 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 12/22/2015 1:35:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:30:05 PM, EtrnlVw
Your god has punished every generation since the the mythical Adam committed his mythical sin.
What was it that all of those generations have done to warrant such an obscene unwarranted sentence?

Lets see here, my God"s Judgements

Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth.
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind.
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

the tree of life also in the midst of the garden


And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Not did the Lord God give Adam a life in God"s Presence without shame or fear, but also gave Adam His Judgement on how to keep the Life God gave Adam. And what was that Life you ask.

Lk 3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

That is what Adam died from that day.

And what is the Lord God"s Judgement on that you ask.

Gen 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The first prophesy in the bible of the coming of Christ. And for why, to restore what was lost. Again God"s Judgement.

Hence the results of God"s Judgement are life, to retain the life, and to restore the life that was lost.


Now, what is the result of our own judgement that is of human nature, you ask. Gen chapter 3 explains that. Disregarding God"s Judgement they toke it upon themselves to trust in their own judgement, and lost the Life they where given. Resulting in shame, guilt and eventual death. If they trusted God"s Judgement we would have the life they had because we would receive the life of a son of God, but we have received the life they had after their departure from the garden. Dust to dust, and ashes to ashes. And by God"s Word He gave them in the Garden, He didn"t have to let them have that much.


No other life in the earth is ashamed of it"s presence, except man in the knowing of his own judgement. Man does not suffer God's Judgement, man suffers the result of his own judgement. Actually man is cruel to himself and his own kind judging himself and his own kind.
I'll come back for this, it's so funny.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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12/22/2015 3:49:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 1:35:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/21/2015 8:30:05 PM, EtrnlVw
Your god has punished every generation since the the mythical Adam committed his mythical sin.
What was it that all of those generations have done to warrant such an obscene unwarranted sentence?

When were you punished? you have every right to walk into the light and maintain that. The fall in Genesis simply illustrates the universal weakness in man (not just Adam eating an apple), that being imperfection but so what? it's not meant to be degrading it's just a fact of life, we simply fall short of the requirements of a Holy God, we make mistakes others more so than some.
All the major religions teach human weaknesses and offers a solution to that. That is what spirituality is for, Genesis did not doom man, it just highlights the obvious.