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Will Christians go to "heaven"?

tstor
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12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/26/2015 1:03:58 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

Every human who has ever lived ends up in hell, also known as sheowl, geenna, pit, or grave.
DanMGTOW
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12/26/2015 2:00:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

now that is interesting, my father is a baptist, and he believes that only born again baptists can go to heaven, because the holy spirit told him to be a baptist.
so either all the other denominations are not saved, or they are ignoring the holy spirit.
what makes christianity even more amusing is i have another friend that is catholic and he says only born again catholics can be saved for the same reason.
so either 1 of them are right, or both of them are wrong
Skyangel
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12/26/2015 2:06:16 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:00:14 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

now that is interesting, my father is a baptist, and he believes that only born again baptists can go to heaven, because the holy spirit told him to be a baptist.
so either all the other denominations are not saved, or they are ignoring the holy spirit.
what makes christianity even more amusing is i have another friend that is catholic and he says only born again catholics can be saved for the same reason.
so either 1 of them are right, or both of them are wrong.

According to JW's only the JW's are saved and the Holy Spirit speaks only to them.
tstor
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12/26/2015 2:07:37 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:00:14 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:

now that is interesting, my father is a baptist, and he believes that only born again baptists can go to heaven, because the holy spirit told him to be a baptist.
so either all the other denominations are not saved, or they are ignoring the holy spirit.
what makes christianity even more amusing is i have another friend that is catholic and he says only born again catholics can be saved for the same reason.
so either 1 of them are right, or both of them are wrong
Proverbs 14:12 reads:
"There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death."
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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12/26/2015 2:07:51 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 1:18:33 AM, uncung wrote:
I don't think so, they would go to the islamic hell instead.

What's the difference between Islamic hell and Christian hell besides different grave sites?
tstor
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12/26/2015 2:09:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:06:16 AM, Skyangel wrote:

According to JW's only the JW's are saved and the Holy Spirit speaks only to them.
If the spirit only spoke to JWs then no one would ever convert. I do not mind you living in a false reality, but do not try and spread it to others as if it is a fact.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skyangel
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12/26/2015 2:23:13 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:09:25 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 2:06:16 AM, Skyangel wrote:

According to JW's only the JW's are saved and the Holy Spirit speaks only to them.
If the spirit only spoke to JWs then no one would ever convert. I do not mind you living in a false reality, but do not try and spread it to others as if it is a fact.

The fact is the Holy Spirit apparently only speaks to the "chosen people" and the JWs believe they are it. However, so do many other cults and sects and con artists in this world.
tstor
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12/26/2015 2:47:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:23:13 AM, Skyangel wrote:

The fact is the Holy Spirit apparently only speaks to the "chosen people" and the JWs believe they are it. However, so do many other cults and sects and con artists in this world.
Luke 11:13:
"Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!"
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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12/26/2015 4:24:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:47:57 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 2:23:13 AM, Skyangel wrote:

The fact is the Holy Spirit apparently only speaks to the "chosen people" and the JWs believe they are it. However, so do many other cults and sects and con artists in this world.
Luke 11:13:
"Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!"

... and your point?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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12/26/2015 4:52:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:07:37 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 2:00:14 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:

now that is interesting, my father is a baptist, and he believes that only born again baptists can go to heaven, because the holy spirit told him to be a baptist.
so either all the other denominations are not saved, or they are ignoring the holy spirit.
what makes christianity even more amusing is i have another friend that is catholic and he says only born again catholics can be saved for the same reason.
so either 1 of them are right, or both of them are wrong
Proverbs 14:12 reads:
"There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death."

i agree, all you have to do is accept that your god is evil and sadistic, and your god predetermined that most people will burn in hell, before the earth was even created
TheWORDisLIFE
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12/26/2015 5:05:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

Nope, only repented Israelites :).
RuvDraba
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12/26/2015 7:10:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.
There is not a single Christian idea of heaven, Ty, just as there is not a single Christian idea of God or salvation.

Christians don't know the answer to this question. They've spent 1700+ years failing to agree on an answer, or even agreeing on how an answer could be validated and verified, or separated from wild conjectures and dubious assumptions.

Essentially, they're all making stuff up from ignorance and unacknowledged biases -- and those most adamant that they know are least accountable for the validity and veracity of their methods.

That's not an ethical position from which to tell anyone else what to do or how to do it.
tstor
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12/26/2015 5:24:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 7:10:07 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

There is not a single Christian idea of heaven, Ty, just as there is not a single Christian idea of God or salvation.
I fully agree. Does that mean that there should not be or there cannot be? No. The Bible gives clear answers in many areas, including the nature of God.

Christians don't know the answer to this question. They've spent 1700+ years failing to agree on an answer, or even agreeing on how an answer could be validated and verified, or separated from wild conjectures and dubious assumptions.
What do you mean by "idea of heaven"? As in how to attain it? How it will be? Who will go? The Bible gives clear answers as to how one will attain it and who will be going. It does not give a full picture of what it will be like.

Essentially, they're all making stuff up from ignorance and unacknowledged biases -- and those most adamant that they know are least accountable for the validity and veracity of their methods.

That's not an ethical position from which to tell anyone else what to do or how to do it.
I try my very best to build my theology based around what is established in the Bible. There is room for a hole or two. For example, someone may have an equally valid interpretation of a topic. However, there is a big difference between allowing for holes (or interpretation differences) and having holes shot through your theology. If I said that everyone is going to heaven, then someone can easily shoot a hole through that (as shown above). Hope that helps.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
RuvDraba
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12/26/2015 6:22:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 5:24:54 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 7:10:07 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
There is not a single Christian idea of heaven, Ty, just as there is not a single Christian idea of God or salvation.
I fully agree. Does that mean that there should not be or there cannot be? No.
Using Biblical canon only, and barring conjectured divine interventions, in what time frame will Christians finally agree on basic theological questions, and by what mechanism will they come to do so?

Which of your methods and beliefs will you sacrifice in order to secure such consensus? And if you won't, why should anyone else?

I try my very best to build my theology based around what is established in the Bible.
Is it ethical to advocate for methods you know have failed repeatedly for over a milennium?

Is it even rational to do so?
tstor
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12/26/2015 7:56:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 6:22:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

There is not a single Christian idea of heaven, Ty, just as there is not a single Christian idea of God or salvation.
I fully agree. Does that mean that there should not be or there cannot be? No.
Using Biblical canon only, and barring conjectured divine interventions, in what time frame will Christians finally agree on basic theological questions, and by what mechanism will they come to do so?
No amount of time will allow for this. People will ignore what they do not have to examine. How many Christians go to church on Sunday to listen to their priest, pastor, etc. without ever examining what the Bible says? My estimate is that there are quite a few. If they do not ever examine the Bible, then they cannot possibly know what it says.

Which of your methods and beliefs will you sacrifice in order to secure such consensus? And if you won't, why should anyone else?
As stated, there are holes in every theology. I can accept differing interpretations in those areas, but not in areas where there is only one way to interpret them.

I try my very best to build my theology based around what is established in the Bible.
Is it ethical to advocate for methods you know have failed repeatedly for over a milennium?

Is it even rational to do so?
Yes. Try studying the Bible in a topical manner. For example, take all the verses about marriage out of the Bible and examine them. Upon doing so, interpret them in a consistent manner and then you have a final conclusion. Interpreting the Bible book by book will only lead to disaster.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
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12/26/2015 7:56:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 7:35:50 PM, Wylted wrote:
The bible says that 144,000 Jews will go to heaven, but nothing about Christians
Spiritual Jews. Revelation 7:4-8 reads:
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu'ben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ash'er 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naph'tali 12,000;
out of the tribe of Manas'seh 12,000;
out of the tribe of Sim'eon 12,000;
out of the tribe of Le'vi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Is'sachar 12,000;
out of the tribe of Zeb'ulun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed."

Notice that the tribes of tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not included in the list (Numbers 1:4-16). So we must conclude that this is not speaking of the natural Israel, but rather the Israel of God (spiritual).
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
RuvDraba
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12/26/2015 8:10:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 7:56:49 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 6:22:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
There is not a single Christian idea of heaven, Ty, just as there is not a single Christian idea of God or salvation.
I fully agree. Does that mean that there should not be or there cannot be? No.
Using Biblical canon only, and barring conjectured divine interventions, in what time frame will Christians finally agree on basic theological questions, and by what mechanism will they come to do so?
No amount of time will allow for this.
Then you are contradicting your bolded statement above. You have just concluded that there cannot and shall not be a coherent, accountable, validated understanding of Christian scripture.

How many Christians go to church on Sunday to listen to their priest, pastor, etc. without ever examining what the Bible says?
Who is to say that the Bible alone provides sufficient information to understand the nature and destiny of man? Does the Bible say that? If it did, would that make it true?

How can that claim be tested? If it cannot be tested, how can any interpretation claim to be more valid than any other? If no interpretation is more valid, how can any conjecture about heaven be more valid than any other?
Wylted
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12/26/2015 8:13:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 7:56:50 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 7:35:50 PM, Wylted wrote:
The bible says that 144,000 Jews will go to heaven, but nothing about Christians
Spiritual Jews. Revelation 7:4-8 reads:
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu'ben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ash'er 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naph'tali 12,000;
out of the tribe of Manas'seh 12,000;
out of the tribe of Sim'eon 12,000;
out of the tribe of Le'vi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Is'sachar 12,000;
out of the tribe of Zeb'ulun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed."

Notice that the tribes of tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not included in the list (Numbers 1:4-16). So we must conclude that this is not speaking of the natural Israel, but rather the Israel of God (spiritual).

No, that's a huge leap in logic. A simpler conclusion is that those two were just not mentioned before. It's like me mentioning 4 family members, but at a later point including 2 I didn't mention before, and you assuming I meant spiritual family. It's a huge leap, and nonsensical
tstor
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12/26/2015 8:21:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 8:10:01 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

No amount of time will allow for this.
Then you are contradicting your bolded statement above. You have just concluded that there cannot and shall not be a coherent, accountable, validated understanding of Christian scripture.
Well, let me rephrase. No amount of time will allow for every person with the label "Christian" to be united in theology. Quite obviously independent sects do it all the time. The Bible only supports one theology.

How many Christians go to church on Sunday to listen to their priest, pastor, etc. without ever examining what the Bible says?
Who is to say that the Bible alone provides sufficient information to understand the nature and destiny of man? Does the Bible say that? If it did, would that make it true?

How can that claim be tested? If it cannot be tested, how can any interpretation claim to be more valid than any other? If no interpretation is more valid, how can any conjecture about heaven be more valid than any other?
My intention is not to discuss the validity of the Bible. If someone is a Christian, then they accept the Bible, so discussing the validity of it when I stated "for the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title 'Christian' are saved" is not productive to the thread.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
tstor
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12/26/2015 8:21:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 8:13:23 PM, Wylted wrote:

No, that's a huge leap in logic. A simpler conclusion is that those two were just not mentioned before. It's like me mentioning 4 family members, but at a later point including 2 I didn't mention before, and you assuming I meant spiritual family. It's a huge leap, and nonsensical
Reread Revelation 7:4-8:
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu'ben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ash'er 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naph'tali 12,000;
out of the tribe of Manas'seh 12,000;
out of the tribe of Sim'eon 12,000;
out of the tribe of Le'vi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Is'sachar 12,000;
out of the tribe of Zeb'ulun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed."

Your comparison is apples to oranges. If you had stated that you had 4 family members who are Tom, Sally, Sue, and Bill, but then proceeded to tell me that all of your family consisted of Tom, Sally, Bob, and Joe, then that would be strange and apples to apples. However, the Bible already speaks of the Israel of God, which is spiritual.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Wylted
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12/26/2015 8:36:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 8:21:21 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 8:13:23 PM, Wylted wrote:

No, that's a huge leap in logic. A simpler conclusion is that those two were just not mentioned before. It's like me mentioning 4 family members, but at a later point including 2 I didn't mention before, and you assuming I meant spiritual family. It's a huge leap, and nonsensical
Reread Revelation 7:4-8:
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu'ben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ash'er 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naph'tali 12,000;
out of the tribe of Manas'seh 12,000;
out of the tribe of Sim'eon 12,000;
out of the tribe of Le'vi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Is'sachar 12,000;
out of the tribe of Zeb'ulun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed."

Your comparison is apples to oranges. If you had stated that you had 4 family members who are Tom, Sally, Sue, and Bill, but then proceeded to tell me that all of your family consisted of Tom, Sally, Bob, and Joe, then that would be strange and apples to apples. However, the Bible already speaks of the Israel of God, which is spiritual.

Where do you get the spiritual part? This is just dogma that is not mentioned in the bible at all.
tstor
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12/26/2015 8:53:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 8:36:50 PM, Wylted wrote:

Where do you get the spiritual part? This is just dogma that is not mentioned in the bible at all.
1 Corinthians 10:18 mentions a "fleshy" sense for Israel. This is perhaps to contrast another sense:
"Look at Israel in the fleshly sense: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar?"

The other sense, the spiritual sense, is mentioned in Matthew 3:9, which reads:
"Do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

So when the expression "Israel of God" is used by Paul in Galatians 6:15, 16, which sense of Israel is he speaking of? Let's consider what he said:
"For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."

Clearly Paul is speaking of the spiritual sense. As well, Romans 9:22-25 speak of God's rejection of the natural Israel and His favoring of the spiritual Israel:
"What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? It is as he says also in Hose'a: 'Those not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not loved, 'beloved';"

Matthew 21:43 also touches on this, it reads:
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."

Finally, consider Romans 9:6, which reads:
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really 'Israel.'"
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Wylted
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12/26/2015 8:59:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 8:53:48 PM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 8:36:50 PM, Wylted wrote:

Where do you get the spiritual part? This is just dogma that is not mentioned in the bible at all.
1 Corinthians 10:18 mentions a "fleshy" sense for Israel. This is perhaps to contrast another sense:
"Look at Israel in the fleshly sense: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar?"

The other sense, the spiritual sense, is mentioned in Matthew 3:9, which reads:
"Do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

So when the expression "Israel of God" is used by Paul in Galatians 6:15, 16, which sense of Israel is he speaking of? Let's consider what he said:
"For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."

Clearly Paul is speaking of the spiritual sense. As well, Romans 9:22-25 speak of God's rejection of the natural Israel and His favoring of the spiritual Israel:
"What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? It is as he says also in Hose'a: 'Those not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not loved, 'beloved';"

Matthew 21:43 also touches on this, it reads:
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."

Finally, consider Romans 9:6, which reads:
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really 'Israel.'"

Not all those statements support your argument, but enough do, that I'll reconsider my premises. Maybe you're right.
graceofgod
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12/26/2015 9:43:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:31:57 AM, tstor wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's say that ALL people who claim the title "Christian" are saved. Where will those Christians go? Heaven? The Bible clearly tells us otherwise. Consider this idea in light of the study below.

Heavenly Class:

Will there be a class of people who will rule over earth with Christ? The Bible gives us a clear answer.
Revelation 5:10 - "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
Revelation 8:17 - "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs -- heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ -- provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together."
Luke 12:32 - "Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."

How many people will this class be composed of? The Bible gives us an extraordinarily clear answer.
Revelation 14:1-5 - "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

Does the Bible teach of people ascending to heaven? I will let you determine that.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Earthly Class:

The Father has both a will here on earth and in heaven (Matt. 6:9, 10). The will of the Father in regards to earth is partially revealed in Psalm 37:9-11 - "For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

the 144000 in heaven are from the 12 tribes so no one other than jews would be in those places, so that means everyone one else would be on paradise earth as the jw's put it..
Skyangel
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12/26/2015 10:00:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 2:47:57 AM, tstor wrote:
At 12/26/2015 2:23:13 AM, Skyangel wrote:

The fact is the Holy Spirit apparently only speaks to the "chosen people" and the JWs believe they are it. However, so do many other cults and sects and con artists in this world.
Luke 11:13:
"Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!"

Do you believe most Christians have asked him or not? If so, have all Christians received the holy spirit or only the JW's?

If people continue to make mistakes while claiming the holy ghost is leading them. it causes observers to question whether they are being led by a holy spirit or a spirit of deception.
It appears they are being led astray by a spirit of deception rather than by any holy spirit who is supposed to lead people into all truth.

Teaching false doctrines is not teaching truth.
JW's teach as many false doctrines as do other religions.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,032
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12/26/2015 10:12:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
what happens if as a perfect jw, you think you have your place in the 144000, you are allowed to take the emblems but if then someone does better than you are you kicked out of your place and you took the emblems when you shouldn't have, so you have taken the emblems ad eaten and drunk condemnation on yourself..

or don't you when you are in or out of the 144000...

considering when the jw's started wouldn't it be fair to think all those places would be taken any how, well before the jw's got going..

isn't it also a bit unrealistic to think jw's would be in the 144000 when the princes like isaac etc would be spending there eternity on earth??
tstor
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12/26/2015 10:20:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 9:43:30 PM, graceofgod wrote:

the 144000 in heaven are from the 12 tribes so no one other than jews would be in those places, so that means everyone one else would be on paradise earth as the jw's put it..
Read here:
http://www.debate.org...
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)