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Forgive Us Our Debts, as We Forgive Our Debto

s-anthony
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12/30/2015 3:17:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
The question I find disturbingly difficult is: Why must we feel compelled to give something of greater value for something of lesser value? In other words, if we hold ourselves in higher regard than we do others, why would we sacrifice our own desires for those of others? Why would we spend that which is valuable on that which is not? This, in itself, seems to go against reason. If I truly think myself more valuable than someone else, then, logic would seem to surmise I would refrain from sacrificing my desires on one I deem of little worth.

However, what if I assumed myself to be of greater value than all others? It would reason no transaction between me and any other would ever occur. This is, clearly, an unsustainable condition.

Yet, what if I esteemed some of greater worth than myself while others of lesser worth than myself and on those of greater worth I expended my energies and those of lesser worth I refrained from doing so? The problem I see with this is we may be happy with some people some of the time but we will never be happy with anyone all of the time. So, during those times we are dissatisfied, we shut ourselves away and refuse to interact with the persons with which we are dissatisfied. If we refuse to forgive others their shortcomings, they may refuse to forgive us of ours. The problem with living in an unforgivable world is apparent; the cogs of life would cease to turn.

The truth is value is never in any dynamic relationship consistent. Life is delicately and intricately made of greater and lesser values. In order for the currents of life to issue forth, there must be ebb and flow.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/30/2015 3:41:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
By your posting it"s quit apparent, you don"t know a thing about love, for the return of the same.
s-anthony
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12/30/2015 4:01:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:41:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
By your posting it"s quit apparent, you don"t know a thing about love, for the return of the same.

Ok.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/30/2015 4:31:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 4:01:49 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/30/2015 3:41:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
By your posting it"s quit apparent, you don"t know a thing about love, for the return of the same.

Ok.

The reason why I say that is, God gave His Son, what He loves, for the return of the same. Sons that love Him, as Jesus already loved His Father in Heaven. And since John said God is Love so that we"d know, therefore the fulfillment in what God is, and His Son is, and the case of the born again, children or sons. The reture God the Father expects for giving His Son.

Granted there is some focus on "what is valued" but it"s about the fulfillment of the life one has, the desire one has. If someone owes you money and that interfere with what you desire, forgiveness ain't coming easy. But if it has nothing to do with what you desire then it's forgiven and forgotten already. And in that respect yes it becomes what is valued, but what is valued is because of what is desired and what is desired is the fulfillment of the life one has.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/30/2015 6:04:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
The reason why I say that is, God gave His Son, what He loves, for the return of the same. Sons that love Him, as Jesus already loved His Father in Heaven. And since John said God is Love so that we"d know, therefore the fulfillment in what God is, and His Son is, and the case of the born again, children or sons. The reture God the Father expects for giving His Son.

So, does this mean God's love is not free, it's wrought with conditions? We must love God in the same manner God loves us. Correct?


Granted there is some focus on "what is valued" but it"s about the fulfillment of the life one has, the desire one has. If someone owes you money and that interfere with what you desire, forgiveness ain't coming easy. But if it has nothing to do with what you desire then it's forgiven and forgotten already. And in that respect yes it becomes what is valued, but what is valued is because of what is desired and what is desired is the fulfillment of the life one has.

If you can only forgive those who don't stand in your way, is that true forgiveness? In other words, how are you forgiving a debt that costs you nothing?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/30/2015 6:15:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:17:00 PM, s-anthony wrote:
The question I find disturbingly difficult is: Why must we feel compelled to give something of greater value for something of lesser value? In other words, if we hold ourselves in higher regard than we do others, why would we sacrifice our own desires for those of others? Why would we spend that which is valuable on that which is not? This, in itself, seems to go against reason. If I truly think myself more valuable than someone else, then, logic would seem to surmise I would refrain from sacrificing my desires on one I deem of little worth.

However, what if I assumed myself to be of greater value than all others? It would reason no transaction between me and any other would ever occur. This is, clearly, an unsustainable condition.

Yet, what if I esteemed some of greater worth than myself while others of lesser worth than myself and on those of greater worth I expended my energies and those of lesser worth I refrained from doing so? The problem I see with this is we may be happy with some people some of the time but we will never be happy with anyone all of the time. So, during those times we are dissatisfied, we shut ourselves away and refuse to interact with the persons with which we are dissatisfied. If we refuse to forgive others their shortcomings, they may refuse to forgive us of ours. The problem with living in an unforgivable world is apparent; the cogs of life would cease to turn.

The truth is value is never in any dynamic relationship consistent. Life is delicately and intricately made of greater and lesser values. In order for the currents of life to issue forth, there must be ebb and flow.

Quantifying someone's worth and keeping checks and balances on who has debt (physical or emotional) to someone else is a petty and selfish undertaking. Why would this even matter to God? I suppose this argument is that it matters to someone, but I doubt very much that it even concerns God.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/30/2015 8:10:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Quantifying someone's worth and keeping checks and balances on who has debt (physical or emotional) to someone else is a petty and selfish undertaking.

You may think it's petty, but the fact is we do it all the time. We interact most frequently with people we value the most.

The intention of the OP is not to say we must only interact with those we find worthless but the interaction with people from whom we have nothing to gain is a necessary component to a meaningful life.

Why would this even matter to God? I suppose this argument is that it matters to someone, but I doubt very much that it even concerns God.

I doubt it matters to God, either.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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12/30/2015 8:37:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 6:04:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
So, does this mean God's love is not free, it's wrought with conditions?

Can you earn it? No. but free? No. Ask any of these who will not give up their trust in their own judgement of what is good, if it's free.

We must love God in the same manner God loves us. Correct?


Yea faith (belief/trust) is one of them, without it you have no salvation in Christ. Correct? Why what have you been taught? It"s by grace through faith. Everyone has the ability to believe and trust and places it, according to what they love, or it could be said value most. If you do so with God He is faithful and you will not have a forgiveness issue with that which you love believe and trust. But someone else who you might entrust something that you may love or value greatly, or not love or value greatly.


If you can only forgive those who don't stand in your way, is that true forgiveness? In other words, how are you forgiving a debt that costs you nothing?

If one is born of the Holy Spirit one should learn to value or love what God values and loves. Which isn"t what men love or value. So eventually one who begins to love or value what God loves or values doesn"t see how something in and of this world that men value can keep them from what they truly love, and the fulfillment in the life they have received.

A person gives someone dirt but the recipient values and loves the dirt because it"s diamonds, so there you are. One sees dirt the other sees the means for the fulfillment of what they desire in this life. Just as God doesn"t value man"s life in the flesh, but He does value that which is of His Life in the flesh. Hence the resurrection of Christ.