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God belief

missmedic
Posts: 390
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1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/2/2016 8:28:48 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

I know a lot of unbelievers who behave a lot better than many fundamentalist Christians of my acquaintance! Religion doesn't always equate with being a decent person.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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1/2/2016 11:28:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

No, we don't need to believe in God just because we want to live productive, moral and useful life. We merely need to believe in God to live safely in hereafter.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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1/2/2016 7:51:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 11:28:21 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

No, we don't need to believe in God just because we want to live productive, moral and useful life. We merely need to believe in God to live safely in hereafter.
What is the hereafter? How does owning a belief get you there?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.
Acquiring spirituality/belief in this life is the acclimation process so to speak because our relation with God is a cultivation, a continual process throughout ones life to prepare or be ready for the next. We can learn in this life what comes next, rather than blindly stumbling on to it we have already began the process here.
I created a topic "spiritual Christianity" to give an idea of what it offers.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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1/2/2016 9:37:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.
I will not live my life on the vague promise of an afterlife which may or may not be true.
Acquiring spirituality/belief in this life is the acclimation process so to speak because our relation with God is a cultivation, a continual process throughout ones life to prepare or be ready for the next. We can learn in this life what comes next, rather than blindly stumbling on to it we have already began the process here.
I created a topic "spiritual Christianity" to give an idea of what it offers.

Your confusing religion with spirituality.
Religion is an institution established by man for various reasons. Exert control, instill morality, stroke egos, or whatever it does. Organized, structured religions all but remove god from the equation. You confess your sins to a clergy member, go to elaborate churches to worship, told what to pray and when to pray it.
Spirituality is born in a person and develops in the person. It may be kick started by a religion, or it may be kick started by a revelation. Spirituality extends to all facets of a person"s life. Spirituality is chosen while religion is often times forced. Being spiritual to me is more important and better than being religious.

Religion has a dogmatic and unquestionable assembly of rules that need to be followed without question.
Spirituality invites you to reason it all, to question it all and to decide your actions and assume the consequences.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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1/3/2016 3:58:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 7:51:24 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 1/2/2016 11:28:21 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

No, we don't need to believe in God just because we want to live productive, moral and useful life. We merely need to believe in God to live safely in hereafter.
What is the hereafter? How does owning a belief get you there?

hereafter is the life after die.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2016 5:01:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:58:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/2/2016 7:51:24 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 1/2/2016 11:28:21 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

No, we don't need to believe in God just because we want to live productive, moral and useful life. We merely need to believe in God to live safely in hereafter.
What is the hereafter? How does owning a belief get you there?

hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,948
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1/3/2016 9:37:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.

No person=personality=mind, existed before the birth of the body in which that person=mind eventually developed, and that spirit=mind lives on after the death of the body in which they "THE PERSON=MIND" had developed.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2016 9:41:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:37:14 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.

No person=personality=mind, existed before the birth of the body in which that person=mind eventually developed, and that spirit=mind lives on after the death of the body in which they "THE PERSON=MIND" had developed.

So you don't believe in the concept of eternal life?
Do you understand what eternal means? Do you understand "eternal" has no beginning or end?
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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1/3/2016 9:47:36 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.
you do refer to the dimension before we were born, while I refer to the life after death. They are different places different cases.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2016 9:52:44 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:37:14 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.

No person=personality=mind, existed before the birth of the body in which that person=mind eventually developed, and that spirit=mind lives on after the death of the body in which they "THE PERSON=MIND" had developed.

Was Jesus a person ? Did he exist in the beginning before the world and before the birth of his body ?
I say he did according to scripture. Do you believe the scriptures?
If Jesus existed before he was born, why didn't anyone else in your opinion?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2016 10:01:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:47:36 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.
you do refer to the dimension before we were born, while I refer to the life after death. They are different places different cases.

What makes you believe that ?
Whats different about them ?
The state of unawareness is the same state before you are born and after you die. You are nothing but a hope of a future generation before you are born or a memory of a past generation after you die.
The future generations are alive in our hopes and dreams and in the sperm and eggs of the present generations.
The past generations live on in our memories. No place else.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,948
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1/3/2016 10:18:18 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 9:52:44 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 9:37:14 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/3/2016 9:18:30 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/3/2016 8:33:52 AM, uncung wrote:
hereafter is the life after die.

The only life after your death is the life of the living who continue to live on this planet without your presence. You as an individual no longer live after you die because you remain dead. Dead people turn to dust eventually and the dust is never raised up to live again.

I am still be here after many die and many will still be here after I die.
The here after is about being here after others die not about living on in some fantasy land after you die. That fantasy land exists nowhere except in human imagination. However, if it helps you find some comfort and peace on the day you die, I guess there is no harm in holding on to your fantasies.
Just don't kill anyone who doesn't believe the same fantasies that you do and avoid any book that tells you to kill unbelievers.
The Grim Reaper will do that job when their time comes.

we will continue living in another kind of life. A soul life.

Dream on.
Any soul life after death is the same kind of life you had before you were even conceived. How was that for you ? Do you remember?
You will end up the same way you were before you were born, in a state of unawareness of anything.
However, feel free to believe your fantasies of a land where you live happily ever after.

No person=personality=mind, existed before the birth of the body in which that person=mind eventually developed, and that spirit=mind lives on after the death of the body in which they "THE PERSON=MIND" had developed.

Was Jesus a person ? Did he exist in the beginning before the world and before the birth of his body ?
I say he did according to scripture. Do you believe the scriptures?
If Jesus existed before he was born, why didn't anyone else in your opinion?

Yes, I do believe the scriptures which reveal that the man Jesus was a person, a human being born of human parents, he was the one chosen through whom the "SON OF MAN" would reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice that he makes for the sinful body of mankind in which he develops, "The Son of Mankind" who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is currently developing within the body of mankind, "The Son of Mankind" the one who would spiritually=mentally descend from the heights of time and reveal himself through his obedient servant who neither spoke one word, or did anything other than that which he was commanded to say or do by "The Son of Man" who is the Lesser Jahweh.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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1/3/2016 10:47:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
you do refer to the dimension before we were born, while I refer to the life after death. They are different places different cases.

What makes you believe that ?
Whats different about them ?
The state of unawareness is the same state before you are born and after you die. You are nothing but a hope of a future generation before you are born or a memory of a past generation after you die.
The future generations are alive in our hopes and dreams and in the sperm and eggs of the present generations.
The past generations live on in our memories. No place else.

I do believe that we will continue living in the other dimension after we die.
The different between before born and after die is the consequence of the deeds.
There is no the consequence of the previous deeds before born. whereas after
die there is the judgement of good and bad deeds.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...
Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...
If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 3:59:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 9:37:53 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.
I will not live my life on the vague promise of an afterlife which may or may not be true.

What is vague?

Acquiring spirituality/belief in this life is the acclimation process so to speak because our relation with God is a cultivation, a continual process throughout ones life to prepare or be ready for the next. We can learn in this life what comes next, rather than blindly stumbling on to it we have already began the process here.
I created a topic "spiritual Christianity" to give an idea of what it offers.

Your confusing religion with spirituality.

No, I never do... how did you get that from what I said?

Religion is an institution established by man for various reasons. Exert control, instill morality, stroke egos, or whatever it does. Organized, structured religions all but remove god from the equation. You confess your sins to a clergy member, go to elaborate churches to worship, told what to pray and when to pray it.

That was nothing but pure speculation and propaganda, this may apply to some people, but you need to go read the Gospels and the epistles because your views are not based on truth, but opinions and irrelevant circumstances. That has nothing to do with Christianity or what Jesus taught. What Jesus taught IS spirituality.

Spirituality is born in a person and develops in the person. It may be kick started by a religion, or it may be kick started by a revelation. Spirituality extends to all facets of a person"s life. Spirituality is chosen while religion is often times forced. Being spiritual to me is more important and better than being religious.

That is exactly what I tell everyone here all the time lol, you haven't been paying attention. But you deny these things, so what is your point?

Religion has a dogmatic and unquestionable assembly of rules that need to be followed without question.
Spirituality invites you to reason it all, to question it all and to decide your actions and assume the consequences.

Your preaching to the choir, what does this have to do with what I said?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 4:02:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Don't waste my time ding dong, MY EXPERIENCES APPLY TO ME, and only me. And we have had this stupid conversation before, so stay on topic..

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

Feel free.


If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.

My reality is based on facts silly, if I know a spiritual dimension exists that is not a BELIEF.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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1/3/2016 4:04:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:02:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Don't waste my time ding dong, MY EXPERIENCES APPLY TO ME, and only me. And we have had this stupid conversation before, so stay on topic..

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

Feel free.


If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.

My reality is based on facts silly, if I know a spiritual dimension exists that is not a BELIEF.

But...you just complained to me that I misunderstood you...you said that your experiences apply to yourself only...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 4:09:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:04:09 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:02:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Don't waste my time ding dong, MY EXPERIENCES APPLY TO ME, and only me. And we have had this stupid conversation before, so stay on topic..

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

Feel free.


If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.

My reality is based on facts silly, if I know a spiritual dimension exists that is not a BELIEF.

But...you just complained to me that I misunderstood you...you said that your experiences apply to yourself only...

Go play.
Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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1/3/2016 4:11:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:09:37 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:04:09 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:02:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Don't waste my time ding dong, MY EXPERIENCES APPLY TO ME, and only me. And we have had this stupid conversation before, so stay on topic..

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

Feel free.


If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.

My reality is based on facts silly, if I know a spiritual dimension exists that is not a BELIEF.

But...you just complained to me that I misunderstood you...you said that your experiences apply to yourself only...

Go play.

Don't want to. I've grown tired of my toys and I can't afford new ones. Also, I want you to explain yourself.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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1/3/2016 4:11:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?
No. We need only to know that we are cared for and safe, and that others need our care and protection too.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
Actually, I believe we can do better than an agnostic shrug, Miss M. Please see my recent posts on validation vs verification and why gods are not unicorns: [http://www.debate.org...]

I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
In a modern society there is no practical difference, except time and resource spent in worship and ritual.

So why believe?
Most people follow faiths prescribed by others, and people of faith are 60-70% likely to inherit their faith of their family, regardless of what that faith is.

A sufficient explanation then, is that we believe because the people we trust and admire want us to.

A more interesting question then might be, why believers want others to believe?

Whatever their excuses, I suspect it's less for the converts' sake than for how it makes believers feel about themselves, their faith and their community.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/3/2016 4:16:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:

Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

In some cases, yes.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.

You mean you don't know and therefore think no one else knows.

I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.

Necessity for what?

I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.

Interesting. Do you see a practical difference between believing and not believing in anything?

So why believe?

Depends on what the believer or non-believer thinks is the necessity.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 4:51:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:11:09 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:09:37 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:04:09 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:02:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:55:52 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:49:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/3/2016 1:21:11 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.

How do you know this?

Because I know a spiritual dimension exists, therefore it is for our own benefit to get involved now, which is what spirituality is and we do that by learning, and you know how learning works here so it's the same...

It feels like we've had this discussion before. Your experiences can't always be applied to the reality. If so, then all people abducted by aliens would be epitomes of truth too.

Don't waste my time ding dong, MY EXPERIENCES APPLY TO ME, and only me. And we have had this stupid conversation before, so stay on topic..

Information has a source, we learn from others who know more than us about a particular subject, we pursue knowledge, apply, examine, take direction and instruction, seek wisdom and understanding, be open minded not rigid in thinking to allow all possible truths that are logical and based on firm premises' ect ect...

I'm open for anything, even your stories. I'm just Occams-razoring you.

Feel free.


If I wasn't sure a spiritual dimension exists I would just say nothing.

Again, ones beliefs isn't always reality.

My reality is based on facts silly, if I know a spiritual dimension exists that is not a BELIEF.

But...you just complained to me that I misunderstood you...you said that your experiences apply to yourself only...

Go play.

Don't want to. I've grown tired of my toys and I can't afford new ones. Also, I want you to explain yourself.

When you ask me a question I will answer based on what I observe/observed, there should be nothing confusing here for you. If you don't want my personal experience in the matter don't ask, but if you ask I will tell you what I know.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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1/3/2016 4:53:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Normal people are ignorant of the power and limitation of beliefs systems. This ignorance is the outcome of an even deeper and more tragic inheritance: a pervasive lack of Self Knowledge. Our culture does not teach individuals to discover who they are at the core of their Being.
Living your adult life identified with your ego prevents you from knowing and being yourself, a person must be self-aware to understand what is real.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of different religions, and different gods these religions believe in. Thousands, if you count all the little sub-sects separately. Tens of thousands or more, if you count every religion throughout history that anyone's ever believed in. Even among today's Big Five, there are hundreds of variations: sects of Christianity, for instance, include Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, Mormon, United Church of Christ, Jehovah's Witness, etc. etc. etc. There are a whole bunch of other Christians out there who are absolutely convinced that you've gotten Christianity totally wrong, and that you're just pissing God off more and more every day.
Claims of knowing god are human claims, based on emotion and ego. Any real god would not need our defence or our belief. When you say your Christian cares what we think or what we believe, that is someone ego talking.
We do not need god belief or religion to be good or spiritual.

If god is good, he won't care if you believe in him, as long as you were the best person you could be.
If there is no god, then it's worth being good for its own sake: because we have compassion for other people, and because being good makes our world a better place, for ourselves and everyone else.
Either way god belief is not needed.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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1/3/2016 4:57:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 8:40:53 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/2/2016 4:29:06 AM, missmedic wrote:
Do we need to believe in a god to live a productive, moral, and useful life?

No, that is not what this is about, one can have those things without God. That's not the point.

Of course Miss, I was assuming you meant in this life, that is what my answer was based on. If God exists then obviously the dynamics change and it also would depend on what something thinks is valuable and what isn't, changing the perceptions on what is "productive, moral and useful"..
But generally speaking, if someone wants to be productive, moral or useful while on this earth they don't necessarily need God for that, everyone has there own little life here.

I am not arguing if god is real or not, as no one knows.
I am arguing the necessity of believing in a god.
I see no practical difference between believing and not believe in any gods.
So why believe?

When you leave behind your material body you will see the reasons why. It would be equivalent to leaving your house to go on a journey having no idea where you are going or how to get there or even when you get there you having no idea what to expect.
Acquiring spirituality/belief in this life is the acclimation process so to speak because our relation with God is a cultivation, a continual process throughout ones life to prepare or be ready for the next. We can learn in this life what comes next, rather than blindly stumbling on to it we have already began the process here.
I created a topic "spiritual Christianity" to give an idea of what it offers.