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any theist for devil's advocate?

SNP1
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1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.
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SNP1
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1/7/2016 10:46:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/7/2016 9:17:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Keep me in mind. I might do it

Okay. Just to note, I honestly don't think the argument is that great, but I want to try it anyways (as I don't see anyone using arguments like it).
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Yassine
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1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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SNP1
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1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.
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Yassine
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1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
SNP1
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1/8/2016 1:30:11 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!

It is an argument for god's existence through a specific definition of omnipotence and a certain version of Murphy's Law.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Yassine
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1/8/2016 4:16:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:30:11 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!

It is an argument for god's existence through a specific definition of omnipotence and a certain version of Murphy's Law.

- Um! I am intrigued. Care to discuss it here?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
SNP1
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1/8/2016 4:21:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:16:11 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:30:11 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!

It is an argument for god's existence through a specific definition of omnipotence and a certain version of Murphy's Law.

- Um! I am intrigued. Care to discuss it here?

Sure.

Omnipotent- Has no constraints and cannot be constrained (both internal and external)
Internal constraint- Definition of said thing makes it logically impossible to exist.
External constraint- Due to what actually exists, the existence of this thing is logically impossible.
God is omnipotent.

P1) In order for something to not have the possibility of existing it must be contained (either internally or externally).
P2) God, by definition, cannot have constraint.
C1) It is possible that God exists.
P3) In an infinite universe, anything that has the possibility of existing does exist.
P4) The universe is infinite.
C2) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
P5) God has the possibility of existing.
P6) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
C3) God exists.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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1/8/2016 4:26:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:21:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:16:11 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:30:11 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!

It is an argument for god's existence through a specific definition of omnipotence and a certain version of Murphy's Law.

- Um! I am intrigued. Care to discuss it here?

Sure.

Omnipotent- Has no constraints and cannot be constrained (both internal and external)
Internal constraint- Definition of said thing makes it logically impossible to exist.
External constraint- Due to what actually exists, the existence of this thing is logically impossible.
God is omnipotent.

P1) In order for something to not have the possibility of existing it must be contained (either internally or externally).
P2) God, by definition, cannot have constraint.
C1) It is possible that God exists.
P3) In an infinite universe, anything that has the possibility of existing does exist.
P4) The universe is infinite.
C2) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
P5) God has the possibility of existing.
P6) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
C3) God exists.

- I have a problem with premises (P1), (P3) & (P4).
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/8/2016 4:29:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:26:04 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:21:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:16:11 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:30:11 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:19:36 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:17:47 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:13:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/7/2016 8:39:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
There is an argument I want to try in a devil's advocate debate. Just a short, 3 round debate with full BoP on me. I want a theist that is playing devil's advocate to be my opponent.

- What is this actually about?

I have an argument that I personally do not think is the best, but want to see how it would hold up in a debate. As I am going to be playing devil's advocate I prefer facing others that are doing the same, that way my opponent might both be introduced to a new argument and see its strengths and weaknesses. It might allow them to make a better version of the argument that I can't refute.

- I got that. But, an argument about WHAT exactly?!!!

It is an argument for god's existence through a specific definition of omnipotence and a certain version of Murphy's Law.

- Um! I am intrigued. Care to discuss it here?

Sure.

Omnipotent- Has no constraints and cannot be constrained (both internal and external)
Internal constraint- Definition of said thing makes it logically impossible to exist.
External constraint- Due to what actually exists, the existence of this thing is logically impossible.
God is omnipotent.

P1) In order for something to not have the possibility of existing it must be contained (either internally or externally).
P2) God, by definition, cannot have constraint.
C1) It is possible that God exists.
P3) In an infinite universe, anything that has the possibility of existing does exist.
P4) The universe is infinite.
C2) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
P5) God has the possibility of existing.
P6) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
C3) God exists.

- I have a problem with premises (P1), (P3) & (P4).

P3 is simply a statistical truth. A version of Murphey's Law is used.
In a realm of infinites, all possibilities are actualities.

What are your objections, more specifically?

The weakness I see is that this would only account for things within the universe itself. God would be outside of the universe, and thus not effected by the realm of infinites/Murphey'sLaw.
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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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1/8/2016 4:36:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:29:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:

P3 is simply a statistical truth. A version of Murphey's Law is used.
In a realm of infinites, all possibilities are actualities.

- Mathematically speaking, yes. But, in reality, NO. BIG NO. In an infinite Universe made of the same exact stuff an infinite amount of time, the only 'actualities' therein are combinations of that stuff. Any other possibility would not exist.

What are your objections, more specifically?

- I don't see how the conclusion follows from the premise.

The weakness I see is that this would only account for things within the universe itself. God would be outside of the universe, and thus not effected by the realm of infinites/Murphey'sLaw.

- That would depend on what definition of Universe/God you chose to go with, such as if you define the Universe as = Creator + Creation.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
SNP1
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1/8/2016 4:43:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:36:13 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:29:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:

P3 is simply a statistical truth. A version of Murphey's Law is used.
In a realm of infinites, all possibilities are actualities.

- Mathematically speaking, yes. But, in reality, NO. BIG NO. In an infinite Universe made of the same exact stuff an infinite amount of time, the only 'actualities' therein are combinations of that stuff. Any other possibility would not exist.

Then it would be externally constrained, and thus it is not possible to exist, so it doesn't apply.

What are your objections, more specifically?

- I don't see how the conclusion follows from the premise.

Which conclusion?

The weakness I see is that this would only account for things within the universe itself. God would be outside of the universe, and thus not effected by the realm of infinites/Murphey'sLaw.

- That would depend on what definition of Universe/God you chose to go with, such as if you define the Universe as = Creator + Creation.
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Yassine
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1/8/2016 4:50:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:43:55 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Then it would be externally constrained, and thus it is not possible to exist, so it doesn't apply.

- Back to premise (P1), how do you defend it?

Which conclusion?

- This: "anything that has the possibility of existing does exist", from this: "In an infinite universe".
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Chaosism
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1/8/2016 5:10:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:21:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Omnipotent- Has no constraints and cannot be constrained (both internal and external)
Internal constraint- Definition of said thing makes it logically impossible to exist.
External constraint- Due to what actually exists, the existence of this thing is logically impossible.
God is omnipotent.

P1) In order for something to not have the possibility of existing it must be contained (either internally or externally).
P2) God, by definition, cannot have constraint.
C1) It is possible that God exists.
P3) In an infinite universe, anything that has the possibility of existing does exist.
P4) The universe is infinite.
C2) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
P5) God has the possibility of existing.
P6) Anything that possibly can exist does exist.
C3) God exists.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think as soon as God is defined as the 'creator or the universe', your argument requires that God created Himself as a part of the universe in order to avoid a contradiction:

1. Every contained possibility (P1) exists within an infinite universe (P3).
2. God is a contained possibility (P2).
3. Therefore, God exists within an infinite universe. <---Contradiction with (7)

4. God is the creator of the universe. (definition)
5. All things that exists in the universe are necessarily created by God.
6. Something cannot create itself.
7. Therefore, God does not exist within the universe. <--- Contradiction with (3)