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Why doesn't prayer work?

Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/8/2016 3:07:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

It's no different to wishing on a falling star.

When you wish upon a star....
makes no difference who you are.....
Anything your heart desires will come true.

It's the futile hope of dreamers.
Casten
Posts: 391
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1/8/2016 3:15:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Prayer is no substitute for modern medicine, but it can be chicken soup for the soul, I think. Also gets people focusing their good intentions on the right things, which may subconsciously alter collective behavior for the better.

I'm an atheist and I've had many theists pray for me. I've never believed there was anyone listening, but I found it was a morale boost just to know people were wishing me well. I just think the power of prayer begins and ends with the human psyche.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/8/2016 3:16:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
A) God is omnipotent and omniscient
P1) That which is omnipotent will always have its will done.
P2) That which is not the will of an omnipotent being will not be done.
P3) An omniscient being's will cannot be changed.
C1) God's will is unchanging, and what is god's will will be done, and what is not god's will will not be done.
P4) Praying for X is an attempt to change outcomes.
P5) If god's will is for X to happen, X will happen whether or not it is prayed for.
P6) If god's will is not for X to happen, X will not happen even if prayed for.
C2) Prayer is useless.

Of course, one can argue that God can put if-then statements into his will (if x is prayed for, then do y), making it so it isn't the strongest argument.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
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Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 3:16:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:07:23 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?



It's no different to wishing on a falling star.

When you wish upon a star....
makes no difference who you are.....
Anything your heart desires will come true.

It's the futile hope of dreamers.

Prayer is actually quite easily prooved ineffective seeing as miracles need to manifest in reality to work. If there is a manifestation then it is testable by scientific annalaysis, which it has been and it falls flat on its face every time. There's even studies showing prayer is actually detrimental to an individual's recovery.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 3:22:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:16:41 AM, SNP1 wrote:
A) God is omnipotent and omniscient
P1) That which is omnipotent will always have its will done.
P2) That which is not the will of an omnipotent being will not be done.
P3) An omniscient being's will cannot be changed.
C1) God's will is unchanging, and what is god's will will be done, and what is not god's will will not be done.
P4) Praying for X is an attempt to change outcomes.
P5) If god's will is for X to happen, X will happen whether or not it is prayed for.
P6) If god's will is not for X to happen, X will not happen even if prayed for.
C2) Prayer is useless.

Of course, one can argue that God can put if-then statements into his will (if x is prayed for, then do y), making it so it isn't the strongest argument.

Lol I love logic.
RyuuKyuzo
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1/8/2016 3:29:56 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I'm not a big "God" guy, but I do pray from time to time, and it does work. Really well. In fact I don't think it's ever not worked for me. Idk if that's just because of some kind of placebo effect, or if there's a God out there who happens to really want to me succeed, but either way it's pretty cool.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 4:46:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:29:56 AM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
I'm not a big "God" guy, but I do pray from time to time, and it does work. Really well. In fact I don't think it's ever not worked for me. Idk if that's just because of some kind of placebo effect, or if there's a God out there who happens to really want to me succeed, but either way it's pretty cool.

So I'd assume that the things you prayed for where attainable without a helping hand from a supernatural being the first rst place?

I would be surprised if you prayed for it to rain Ferraris and that came to fruition but not if you took a aspirin then prayed for your headache to go away....
graceofgod
Posts: 5,087
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1/8/2016 4:49:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

I have seen people healed by prayer, they were in a wheel chair when they came, on medication, the only thing that had changed was the power of prayer and they got out the wheel chair and walked..
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 5:05:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 4:49:54 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

I have seen people healed by prayer, they were in a wheel chair when they came, on medication, the only thing that had changed was the power of prayer and they got out the wheel chair and walked..

Cool, do you have any evidence of this?

There are many thousands of different explanations for you cited miracle. The person may not havd been unable to walk in the first place, the person may have been being dishonest.

Think about it. If someone could make a disabled person walk again prsyer would be our primary source of medicene, hmmmm I wonder why it's not then.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/8/2016 5:36:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Completely relevant and awesome video.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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1/8/2016 6:05:59 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

Yes.

My first thought is that, from your posts, you seem to think prayer is some sort of algorithm or voodoo. Sort of like an incantation one could use, beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice!

It isn't. Prayer is direct at a real person, not some genie who must robotically grant your wish no matter how inane it is if your incantation is correct.

Because God is a real person with omniscience, you cannot "test" prayer results with any blind scientific credibility. It just doesn't make sense.

But as to your question about why don't we see miracle healings from prayer today? Easy. God doesn't do them anymore.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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1/8/2016 6:06:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

You are doing the head pat and belly rub correctly hey? It's clockwise. My prayers are working. It's slow at the moment. I have a app that gives you a notification tone when prayers are received.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 6:34:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 6:05:59 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

Yes.

My first thought is that, from your posts, you seem to think prayer is some sort of algorithm or voodoo. Sort of like an incantation one could use, beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice!

It isn't. Prayer is direct at a real person, not some genie who must robotically grant your wish no matter how inane it is if your incantation is correct.

Because God is a real person with omniscience, you cannot "test" prayer results with any blind scientific credibility. It just doesn't make sense.

But as to your question about why don't we see miracle healings from prayer today? Easy. God doesn't do them anymore.

No I don't think prayer is an algorithm or voodoo, I think it is an appeal to the supernatural to suspend physics and magic up a miracle.

You say prayer is directed at a real person. So you are asserting your God is a real person? Can you provide evidence for your assertion please? Also obviously the Bible is no evidence due to it being a logical fallacy for the book to prove the book is real.

So do any answered prayers/miracles manifest in reality? If they do they should be testable by science. If not prayer is useless for people who like to live in reality .

God doesn't do them anymore you say, that is suggesting he used to do them. Please provide proof of his past miracles/answered prayers (please don't quote the bible because we have not come to any sort of conclusion of its validity). Also how do you know God does not answer prayers nowadays? Where have you got your information from?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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1/8/2016 7:11:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

If your prayers aren't working you are either praying to the wrong god, the wrong way or for the wrong thing, or any combination of the three.

Do you pray to the father (Jehovah)?

Do you pray through the son?

Do you pray for things which do not fit within Jehovah's purposes?
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 7:14:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 7:11:08 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

If your prayers aren't working you are either praying to the wrong god, the wrong way or for the wrong thing, or any combination of the three.

Do you pray to the father (Jehovah)?

Do you pray through the son?

Do you pray for things which do not fit within Jehovah's purposes?

Wow that is extremely apologetic of you...
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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1/8/2016 7:18:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 6:34:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 6:05:59 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:

Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

Yes.

My first thought is that, from your posts, you seem to think prayer is some sort of algorithm or voodoo. Sort of like an incantation one could use, beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice!

It isn't. Prayer is direct at a real person, not some genie who must robotically grant your wish no matter how inane it is if your incantation is correct.

Because God is a real person with omniscience, you cannot "test" prayer results with any blind scientific credibility. It just doesn't make sense.

But as to your question about why don't we see miracle healings from prayer today? Easy. God doesn't do them anymore.

No I don't think prayer is an algorithm or voodoo, I think it is an appeal to the supernatural to suspend physics and magic up a miracle.

Do you have any logic for this belief? Your posts show yo confuse prayer with voodoo. Telling a person to pray that it rains Lamborghinis is the request of a person a little confused about what prayer is.

You say prayer is directed at a real person. So you are asserting your God is a real person?

Of course. Did you imagine that the millions of people who pray to Him think He is NOT a real person?

Can you provide evidence for your assertion please?

Sure. But first you will defend the claims you've made. You aren't at atheist camp anymore. No one will automatically take your opinions as fact here.

Also obviously the Bible is no evidence due to it being a logical fallacy for the book to prove the book is real.

The book is real. I have a real one right here with me. Also, I am not so dumb as to fall for that foolish atheist clunker, "Prove the Bible without using the bible." Because you are ignorant of the Bible and standards of proving the validity of ancient scripts is no reason for me to behave illogically. When I am challenged on whether the Bible contains truth, one of the things I look at is the Bible. I think that is not only logical, it is reasonable.

So do any answered prayers/miracles manifest in reality?

Of course. You seem to equate "answered prayer" with miracle. They aren't the same.

God doesn't do them anymore you say, that is suggesting he used to do them.

Of course. Life is a miracle no?

Please provide proof of his past miracles/answered prayers

Sure. Life comes only from life. The universe was at a time, inhospitable to life. Yet here we are.....alive. Where did that life come from? Remember, all scientific observation and experimentation to date shows that life comes only from life. According to all scientific observation, life in our universe must have started from life. The only life which could have survived the early universe, or could have entered the universe after it became hospitable, is God's. Ta Daaa!

(please don't quote the bible because we have not come to any sort of conclusion of its validity).

No, YOU have not come to any conclusion of its validity. But you are in the minority. More people consider it valid than do not. These people include doctors, archaeologists, professors, biologists, teachers, rocket scientists, astronomists, and linguists. When you become king, we will listen to your strange idea of not quoting the Bible when trying to validate it. Until then, we quote.

Also how do you know God does not answer prayers nowadays?

I did not say God does not answer prayer. I said God does not do miracles like found in the OT anymore. There are logical reasons for that, but we will quote the Bible sparingly so that you don't have a cow.

Where have you got your information from?

The Bible.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,087
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1/8/2016 10:10:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 5:05:16 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:49:54 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

I have seen people healed by prayer, they were in a wheel chair when they came, on medication, the only thing that had changed was the power of prayer and they got out the wheel chair and walked..

Cool, do you have any evidence of this?

yes i have seen it with my own eyes ...

There are many thousands of different explanations for you cited miracle. The person may not havd been unable to walk in the first place, the person may have been being dishonest.
no it has happened to people i know, who have had life long conditions, their meds have remained the same, the only thing that changed was prayer..

Think about it. If someone could make a disabled person walk again prsyer would be our primary source of medicene, hmmmm I wonder why it's not then.

it is to most believers....

you cannot make a fortune out of prayer but you can medicine...

most people know cannabis can treat cancer yet we prefer to butcher them, poison them or irradiate them. i wonder why??/
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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1/8/2016 10:27:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?
Prayer does work.

I think the problems here are either:

1.) You aren't praying to the right god.

OR

2.) You aren't putting your full trust in God and/or are denying His presence and His power.

Plus, there is a reason why there is no mention of God healing amputees in the Bible. The reason is because there is no biblical Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic word for "amputee". The Bible does, however, use words such as "crippled" that might indicate someone who is an amputee (https://answersingenesis.org...).
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MadCornishBiker
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1/8/2016 10:50:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 7:14:30 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 7:11:08 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

If your prayers aren't working you are either praying to the wrong god, the wrong way or for the wrong thing, or any combination of the three.

Do you pray to the father (Jehovah)?

Do you pray through the son?

Do you pray for things which do not fit within Jehovah's purposes?


Wow that is extremely apologetic of you...

I'm not apologising for anything, simply stating the truth.

Think about the Lords Prayer.

Matthew 6:9-15 American Standard Version (ASV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye.

Note it is not "use these words" because he has only a few verses earlier said that we should not repeat the same words over and over. In other words prayer should come from the heart, not by rote.

Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Do you pray to the father, Jehovah? or to the son?

Do you use Jehovah's name thus, showing that you view it as hallowed? important?

10 Thy kingdom come.

Do you even know what Jehovah's Kingdom is. It is a very real Government with it's own laws and its own law book, the Bible. It has a King, the Christ who will share his rule by 144,000 who used to be human..

Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

Is God's will being done? Yes it is by a few, but how is it done in heaven?

In heaven God's will is done from one end of it to the other, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every day of eternity.

That is how it will be done on the earth also when it is fully established, after Armageddon

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

No luxuries, nothing but our basic needs. Is that all we pray for? It should be.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Yes, we want forgiveness, but do we also forgive others. We should here be praying for Jehovah's help in forgiving others so that we too can be forgiven (Matthew 6:14-14; 7:1-5).

13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Help us to spot, and avoid temptation, keep us free from the perils of listening too much to our bodies and allowing them to rule us, rather than us ruling them.

That is what I explained in a few words, expanded out to what it should be.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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1/8/2016 11:08:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

My thinking is that prayer is for spiritual development and is a form of communion with God, not a tool by which we can get what we want. Some would disagree, but that's just my view on the purpose of prayer.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 11:23:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 7:18:10 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 6:34:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 6:05:59 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:

Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

Yes.

My first thought is that, from your posts, you seem to think prayer is some sort of algorithm or voodoo. Sort of like an incantation one could use, beetlejuice! beetlejuice! beetlejuice!

It isn't. Prayer is direct at a real person, not some genie who must robotically grant your wish no matter how inane it is if your incantation is correct.

Because God is a real person with omniscience, you cannot "test" prayer results with any blind scientific credibility. It just doesn't make sense.

But as to your question about why don't we see miracle healings from prayer today? Easy. God doesn't do them anymore.

No I don't think prayer is an algorithm or voodoo, I think it is an appeal to the supernatural to suspend physics and magic up a miracle.

Do you have any logic for this belief? Your posts show yo confuse prayer with voodoo. Telling a person to pray that it rains Lamborghinis is the request of a person a little confused about what prayer is.

You say prayer is directed at a real person. So you are asserting your God is a real person?

Of course. Did you imagine that the millions of people who pray to Him think He is NOT a real person?

Can you provide evidence for your assertion please?

Sure. But first you will defend the claims you've made. You aren't at atheist camp anymore. No one will automatically take your opinions as fact here.

Also obviously the Bible is no evidence due to it being a logical fallacy for the book to prove the book is real.

The book is real. I have a real one right here with me. Also, I am not so dumb as to fall for that foolish atheist clunker, "Prove the Bible without using the bible." Because you are ignorant of the Bible and standards of proving the validity of ancient scripts is no reason for me to behave illogically. When I am challenged on whether the Bible contains truth, one of the things I look at is the Bible. I think that is not only logical, it is reasonable.

So do any answered prayers/miracles manifest in reality?

Of course. You seem to equate "answered prayer" with miracle. They aren't the same.

God doesn't do them anymore you say, that is suggesting he used to do them.

Of course. Life is a miracle no?

Please provide proof of his past miracles/answered prayers

Sure. Life comes only from life. The universe was at a time, inhospitable to life. Yet here we are.....alive. Where did that life come from? Remember, all scientific observation and experimentation to date shows that life comes only from life. According to all scientific observation, life in our universe must have started from life. The only life which could have survived the early universe, or could have entered the universe after it became hospitable, is God's. Ta Daaa!

(please don't quote the bible because we have not come to any sort of conclusion of its validity).

No, YOU have not come to any conclusion of its validity. But you are in the minority. More people consider it valid than do not. These people include doctors, archaeologists, professors, biologists, teachers, rocket scientists, astronomists, and linguists. When you become king, we will listen to your strange idea of not quoting the Bible when trying to validate it. Until then, we quote.

Also how do you know God does not answer prayers nowadays?

I did not say God does not answer prayer. I said God does not do miracles like found in the OT anymore. There are logical reasons for that, but we will quote the Bible sparingly so that you don't have a cow.

Where have you got your information from?

The Bible.

Right let's take this slowly.

Do you understand what a logical fallacy is?
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/8/2016 11:33:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 10:10:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 5:05:16 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:49:54 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

I have seen people healed by prayer, they were in a wheel chair when they came, on medication, the only thing that had changed was the power of prayer and they got out the wheel chair and walked..

Cool, do you have any evidence of this?

yes i have seen it with my own eyes ...

There are many thousands of different explanations for you cited miracle. The person may not havd been unable to walk in the first place, the person may have been being dishonest.
no it has happened to people i know, who have had life long conditions, their meds have remained the same, the only thing that changed was prayer..

Think about it. If someone could make a disabled person walk again prsyer would be our primary source of medicene, hmmmm I wonder why it's not then.

it is to most believers....

you cannot make a fortune out of prayer but you can medicine...

most people know cannabis can treat cancer yet we prefer to butcher them, poison them or irradiate them. i wonder why??/

Did you just say prayer is the primary source of medicine for most believers? Can you post your source of evidence please?

You cannot make a fortune out of prayer you say. That is extremely naive and blatantly wrong. Have you ever seen the televised evangelists in America who make an a bsoloute fortune. I'm from the UK so I'm not aware of all the US's prayer based programming but I would take an educated guess that there would be many examples that make millions from prayer.

Cannabis can sooth pain from cancer but it obviously does not cure/prevent the disease, so I don't get your point. I do agree however that pharmaceutical companies make a lot of money off the back of cancer treatments, but that is getting off topic to be honest.
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/9/2016 12:38:31 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:16:41 AM, SNP1 wrote:
A) God is omnipotent and omniscient
P1) That which is omnipotent will always have its will done.
P2) That which is not the will of an omnipotent being will not be done.
P3) An omniscient being's will cannot be changed.
C1) God's will is unchanging, and what is god's will will be done, and what is not god's will will not be done.
P4) Praying for X is an attempt to change outcomes.
P5) If god's will is for X to happen, X will happen whether or not it is prayed for.
P6) If god's will is not for X to happen, X will not happen even if prayed for.
C2) Prayer is useless.

Of course, one can argue that God can put if-then statements into his will (if x is prayed for, then do y), making it so it isn't the strongest argument.

Nice proof. I'll have to keep this one handy for the future.
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/9/2016 12:40:01 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 11:08:42 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

My thinking is that prayer is for spiritual development and is a form of communion with God, not a tool by which we can get what we want. Some would disagree, but that's just my view on the purpose of prayer.

I agree. A lot of people pray in order to ask for things... In which there are three answers: yes, no and maybe later.

In fact, the prayer most people should really pray is God's will be done. That way you pray for the outcome God wants, not yourself, which in turn I believe would yield more fruitful and frequent results.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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1/9/2016 2:14:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 12:40:01 AM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 11:08:42 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

My thinking is that prayer is for spiritual development and is a form of communion with God, not a tool by which we can get what we want. Some would disagree, but that's just my view on the purpose of prayer.

I agree. A lot of people pray in order to ask for things... In which there are three answers: yes, no and maybe later.

In fact, the prayer most people should really pray is God's will be done. That way you pray for the outcome God wants, not yourself, which in turn I believe would yield more fruitful and frequent results.

How did you come about forming that view on the purpose of prayer?
Magellan
Posts: 31
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1/9/2016 2:16:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 2:14:57 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/9/2016 12:40:01 AM, Magellan wrote:
At 1/8/2016 11:08:42 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

My thinking is that prayer is for spiritual development and is a form of communion with God, not a tool by which we can get what we want. Some would disagree, but that's just my view on the purpose of prayer.

I agree. A lot of people pray in order to ask for things... In which there are three answers: yes, no and maybe later.

In fact, the prayer most people should really pray is God's will be done. That way you pray for the outcome God wants, not yourself, which in turn I believe would yield more fruitful and frequent results.

How did you come about forming that view on the purpose of prayer?

Well it's part of the Lord's Prayer which is the guidelines for how Jesus tells us to pray for one.

Secondly, if you love God, trust Him and believe in His omniscience His will should be your desire because you will trust that it will be the best overall outcome.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,087
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1/9/2016 9:38:06 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 11:33:09 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 10:10:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 5:05:16 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 4:49:54 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

I have seen people healed by prayer, they were in a wheel chair when they came, on medication, the only thing that had changed was the power of prayer and they got out the wheel chair and walked..

Cool, do you have any evidence of this?

yes i have seen it with my own eyes ...

There are many thousands of different explanations for you cited miracle. The person may not havd been unable to walk in the first place, the person may have been being dishonest.
no it has happened to people i know, who have had life long conditions, their meds have remained the same, the only thing that changed was prayer..

Think about it. If someone could make a disabled person walk again prsyer would be our primary source of medicene, hmmmm I wonder why it's not then.

it is to most believers....

you cannot make a fortune out of prayer but you can medicine...

most people know cannabis can treat cancer yet we prefer to butcher them, poison them or irradiate them. i wonder why??/

Did you just say prayer is the primary source of medicine for most believers? Can you post your source of evidence please?

yes of course you are talking to the primary source, my wife and family are the same as are all the fellowship I attend and the other believers I know!!

You cannot make a fortune out of prayer you say. That is extremely naive and blatantly wrong. Have you ever seen the televised evangelists in America who make an a bsoloute fortune. I'm from the UK so I'm not aware of all the US's prayer based programming but I would take an educated guess that there would be many examples that make millions from prayer.

I have seen them and if people knew the gospel they would go nowhere near those people praying for money, they are conmen nothing else..

are you insinuating the pharma companies give medicines for free to people??

Cannabis can sooth pain from cancer but it obviously does not cure/prevent the disease, so I don't get your point. I do agree however that pharmaceutical companies make a lot of money off the back of cancer treatments, but that is getting off topic to be honest.

there are many who would disagree, there are many substances that can help and heal cancers but the pharma companies have such a strangle hold on everything their expensive potions stay in the game...

what do you think the beginnings of medicines where??
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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1/9/2016 3:01:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 11:23:29 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 7:18:10 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 6:34:32 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 6:05:59 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:

Right let's take this slowly.

Do you understand what a logical fallacy is?

Yes I do. Do you? But before we get there, address the question directed to your claim.

No I don't think prayer is an algorithm or voodoo, I think it is an appeal to the supernatural to suspend physics and magic up a miracle.

Do you have any logic for this belief?

Should I conclude this is simply your opinion and you have no logical reasons for thinking this? Either way, I will not assume it is true anyplace other then in your head.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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1/9/2016 4:36:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 10:50:55 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 7:14:30 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 1/8/2016 7:11:08 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:58:30 AM, Redfordnutt wrote:
Why is it that the only medical "miracles" that religious people cite as proof of prayers validaty are ailments than can naturally remiss, or are simultaneously being actively treated by medicine whilst also being prayed for. No God has ever healed an amputee or created a missing organ etc...........

I'd go as far as saying that prayer is good intentioned wishful thinking at best.
Your thoughts?

If your prayers aren't working you are either praying to the wrong god, the wrong way or for the wrong thing, or any combination of the three.

Do you pray to the father (Jehovah)?

Do you pray through the son?

Do you pray for things which do not fit within Jehovah's purposes?


Wow that is extremely apologetic of you...

I'm not apologising for anything, simply stating the truth.

Think about the Lords Prayer.

Matthew 6:9-15 American Standard Version (ASV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye.

Note it is not "use these words" because he has only a few verses earlier said that we should not repeat the same words over and over. In other words prayer should come from the heart, not by rote.

Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Do you pray to the father, Jehovah? or to the son?

Do you use Jehovah's name thus, showing that you view it as hallowed? important?

10 Thy kingdom come.

Do you even know what Jehovah's Kingdom is. It is a very real Government with it's own laws and its own law book, the Bible. It has a King, the Christ who will share his rule by 144,000 who used to be human..

What a materialistic view of the reign, or kingdom, of heaven! According to you, it's a political thing where your neighbor might be up in heaven "ruling" - but you are here on earth petting tigers on the head.

According to you, Christ wasn't really ruling in the 1st century. The first century kingdom was just a "phase".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."