Total Posts:43|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The "one way to heaven" doctrine is wrong

harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 9:10:29 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.
I have a few corrections to make;
2nt kings is actually 2nd kings, also, I would like to add a scripture, Romans chapter 2:
"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism"
Wait, god does not show favoritism, you mean that god doesn't just decide "you Christians can go up, but you people who never got a chance to hear of Jesus, you're going to hell"
I heard something like that in John 3: 16, it says that god so loved the world, not just the Christians, but the whole world, and god does not hold things against you you cannot help. the bible also says that judgement is based on the extent by which you did or did not know.
And it even goes on and says:
"12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God"s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
I also found this in Romans chapter 5 verse 13:
"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
So if they don't know the law, they cannot be judged for it.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 9:32:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.

The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls where there were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

The Book of Enoch comprises over one hundred chapters and forms an important source for the thought of Judaism in the last few centuries B.C.E. Significantly, the remnants of several almost complete copies of The Book of Enoch in Aramaic were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it is clear that whoever collected the scrolls considered it a vitally important text. All but one of the five major components of the Ethiopic anthology have turned up among the scrolls. But even more intriguing is the fact that additional, previously unknown or little-known texts about Enoch were discovered at Qumran.

There was a man from an age of man before the flood, which was prior to this age that is destined to be destroyed by fire, of whom scripture reveals was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation where he was translated from a physical being to a glorious being of light, in order that death should have no power over him.

"The Book of Enoch the Prophet," XXXVII: 4, "Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me." This is verified in genesis 5: 23, and Hebrews 11: 5.

That man was the only exception of all mankind to have ascended to the very ends of time, where he witnessed the heavens burn and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the "Great Abyss," "Black Hole," beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the universe had existed. That man, "Enoch" describes the Great Abyss [Black Hole] as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

The great heavenly Simulacrum which is the Blueprint of the new species that evolves from the body of mankind, is the glorious light being who is the spiritual Son of Man or the Lesser Jehovah, who is currently [according to our linear concept of time] developing within the body of mankind, gaining all the wisdom, knowledge and insight needed by the heir to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, from the pain and suffering endured by the body in which He develops, which suffering is caused by the mistakes of that body, and "IT" is the compilation of every human being "Male and Female" who has, or will ever walk this earth, and is the only one who can pay the penalty for the sinful body in which he developed.

Enoch was the chosen cornerstone to which the spirits of man would be united in the creation of the great heavenly simulacrum, which is the sacrificial offering that God has prepared for us. It was He who evolved on the spirits of all his descendants in his ascension and evolution to become "THE SON OF MAN," [The Lesser Jahweh]. It is this God of whom Enoch was the cornerstone, who, after the death of the body of mankind in which he had developed continued for some time totally concentred in himself, who then descended from the very height of time into his dead past, and made his covenant with Abraham, whose ten ancestral fathers from Noah down, were still alive when he was born, and in Abraham, no post flood spirit had at that point in the evolution of The great simulacrum been gathered to the living spirit of "ENOCH" our indwelling ancestral Father, with whom Abraham was one.

It was to Abraham that the great heavenly Simulacrum=blueprint, [The lesser Jahweh] who is the sin offering that is prepared for us, said: "In blessing I will bless you, and in Multiplying I will multiply you."

Enoch, the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God, who, at the age of 365 (The number of days in a calendar year) was carried to the throne of the MOST HIGH, is the one who came down and filled the man Jesus with his spirit, etc.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 9:33:43 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Also, Ezekiel chapter 18 says:
"Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. He does not eat at the mountain shrine, or look to the idols of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor"s wife, or have sexual relations with a woman during her period. He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robber but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. He does not lend to them at interest, or take a profit from them. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between two parties. He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live declares the Sovereign Lord."
Wow, so the sovereign lord says that you "live", as in you don't go to hell, depending on if you live your life right, not by what doctrine you have, or if you said a prayer or not. If you want to pull the old "the old testament is old" argument, here you go:
Malachi 3:6 says:
"For I am the LORD, I change not"
Psalms 33:11:
"The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation"
Hebrews 13:8:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
Yeah that's right, the god of the old testament is not a different god than that of the new testament, I have a scripture to prove this too:
1 Corinthians 1:13:
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
The answer is no, Christ is not divided.
Ezekiel 18:4:
"For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child"both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die."
you mean not just the Christians or the Jews are gods children, you mean god does not just not give people a chance at repetition. You mean god is not a respecter of persons, huh,
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 9:37:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:32:47 AM, Gentorev wrote:
"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE."

The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls where there were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

The Book of Enoch comprises over one hundred chapters and forms an important source for the thought of Judaism in the last few centuries B.C.E. Significantly, the remnants of several almost complete copies of The Book of Enoch in Aramaic were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it is clear that whoever collected the scrolls considered it a vitally important text. All but one of the five major components of the Ethiopic anthology have turned up among the scrolls. But even more intriguing is the fact that additional, previously unknown or little-known texts about Enoch were discovered at Qumran.

There was a man from an age of man before the flood, which was prior to this age that is destined to be destroyed by fire, of whom scripture reveals was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation where he was translated from a physical being to a glorious being of light, in order that death should have no power over him.
I still don't know where you are going with this.

"The Book of Enoch the Prophet," XXXVII: 4, "Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me." This is verified in genesis 5: 23, and Hebrews 11: 5. "
Sounds like its from the book of Mormon pal, take you're pro- polygamist someplace else.

"That man was the only exception of all mankind to have ascended to the very ends of time, where he witnessed the heavens burn and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the "Great Abyss," "Black Hole," beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the universe had existed. That man, "Enoch" describes the Great Abyss [Black Hole] as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven. "
And Elijah, what about Elijah?

The great heavenly Simulacrum which is the Blueprint of the new species that evolves from the body of mankind, is the glorious light being who is the spiritual Son of Man or the Lesser Jehovah, who is currently [according to our linear concept of time] developing within the body of mankind, gaining all the wisdom, knowledge and insight needed by the heir to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, from the pain and suffering endured by the body in which He develops, which suffering is caused by the mistakes of that body, and "IT" is the compilation of every human being "Male and Female" who has, or will ever walk this earth, and is the only one who can pay the penalty for the sinful body in which he developed.

Enoch was the chosen cornerstone to which the spirits of man would be united in the creation of the great heavenly simulacrum, which is the sacrificial offering that God has prepared for us. It was He who evolved on the spirits of all his descendants in his ascension and evolution to become "THE SON OF MAN," [The Lesser Jahweh]. It is this God of whom Enoch was the cornerstone, who, after the death of the body of mankind in which he had developed continued for some time totally concentred in himself, who then descended from the very height of time into his dead past, and made his covenant with Abraham, whose ten ancestral fathers from Noah down, were still alive when he was born, and in Abraham, no post flood spirit had at that point in the evolution of The great simulacrum been gathered to the living spirit of "ENOCH" our indwelling ancestral Father, with whom Abraham was one.

It was to Abraham that the great heavenly Simulacrum=blueprint, [The lesser Jahweh] who is the sin offering that is prepared for us, said: "In blessing I will bless you, and in Multiplying I will multiply you."

Enoch, the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God, who, at the age of 365 (The number of days in a calendar year) was carried to the throne of the MOST HIGH, is the one who came down and filled the man Jesus with his spirit, etc.

What is your point, are you with my point or against my points?
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 9:45:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
This Enoch, who ascended to the very ends of time, witnessed the ends of the universe, as was taught to Peter by our Lord. Enoch watched as the universal elements, burnt up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss/Black Hole of origin, which Enoch described as the prison of all the stars and the host of Heaven, beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the universe had existed, this included himself, who, [In the Big Crunch] entered into the Logos, as the supreme personality to have evolved in that cycle of universal manifestation, when all that exists descended through space and time to the very beginning, before space and time had begun.

It was He, "The Light of Man" who in the beginning cried out, "Let there be light," as he observed the invisible pool of universal genetic information (The Logos) that had been gathered over the eons of eternity, express itself, Not as the spoken word, but in the resurrection of the universal body in the which the supreme Personality of the Logos, which was the life and the Light of man, had evolved.

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

And the Most High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man,) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

And the Lord summoned one of his arch-angels by name Pravuil, whose knowledge was quicker in wisdom than the other arch-angels, who wrote all the deeds of the Lord; and the Lord said to Pravuil: "Bring out the books from my store-houses, and a reed of quick writing, and give it to Enoch, and deliver to him the choice and comforting books out of thy hand.

The Lord then commanded Enoch to write down the names of every person who would ever live and the position for each soul into all eternity, for all souls are prepared to eternity. Enoch, who later duplicated himself in Jesus recorded the book of life.

The book continues to speak of Enoch"s writing, how he wrote his wonderful Journeying and the heavenly apparitions that he witnessed in his ascent to the end of all time, then after Enoch had been escorted to the ends of this cycle of universal activity, and had witnessed the end of all things and beheld the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss (Black Hole) which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which was nothing but a horrible waste, and he had recorded all that he had seen in his 366 books, God gave him thirty days in which to return to earth and reveal his writings to his children.

After telling the escorting angels to return Enoch to earth for thirty days, in order to reveal his writing to his sons, an ancient angel colder than ice was called forward to touch Enoch, and "The Most High" said to him, "Enoch, If thy face were not frozen here, no man on earth would be able to behold thee."

After revealing all that he had seen to his children, which is contained in too many chapters to bother about here, in chapter 50, Enoch says to his children; "I have put every man"s work in writing and none born on earth can remain hidden nor his works remain concealed. I see all things. Now therefore, my children, in patience and meekness spend the number of your days that you may inherit endless life, etc. In chapter 50: 2; Enoch says this to his pre-flood children, "You see how I wrote all the works of everyman, BEFORE HIS CREATION etc."

Our future is not predetermined as some may believe, but the Son of Man, [The Omega] who descends to the very beginning of time, [The Alpha] knows everything that every person has ever done in his dead past.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 10:25:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The books of Enoch, are the foundation of all truth, and the man Enoch was the chosen cornerstone to which the spirits of his descendants are gathered in the creation of the great heavenly Simulacrum/blue print of the new creation that come from man.

Enoch, the stone that the builders of the universal church rejected, has now turned out to be the most important stone of all. His writings were thought to be lost for millennia, and they remain the oldest extant mystical document. The writings of Enoch are referred to in the Hebrew Zobar, the epistle of Jude, and are considered by some to have been an early draft of the New Testament.

Up until the fourth century, the Books of Enoch were held in great reverence by such religious authorities as Irenacus, Origen, and Tertullian, and were cherished by the early Christians, until the fourth century, when, under the Bann of such authorities of the church of Constantine, as Jerome, Hilary and Augustine, they finally past out of circulation, thereby protecting them from the misinterpretations and erroneous re-translations of men who, lived in the dark ages.

The only man in the Holy Scriptures, who is said to have been carried to God where he was anointed [CHRIST=The anointed one] and translated in order that he should never experience death, was the 365 year old righteous Enoch.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year=the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

The coming Elijah/Sandalphron, the Jewish Messiah, is not the twin of our heavenly Father Enoch/Metatron, but he is the duplication of our heavenly Father who gives his immortal body of glorious and brilliant light, in order that we might live.

According to one school of thought Enoch was taken by God and transformed into Metatron, The Zohar calls Metatron "the Youth", identifies him as the angel that led the people of Israel through the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt, and describes him as a heavenly priest.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "the lesser YHVH" resurfaces. According to Johann Eisenmenger, Metatron transmits the daily orders of God to the angels Gabriel and Sammael.

Enoch the living one, of the previous world that was destroyed by water, was in the valley of Man, (The invisible dimension that co-exists within this three dimensional world) for three days, or three periods of one thousand years, before he was reborn on earth in his chosen host body, the man "Jesus."

It was Christ=The Anointed One, who, as the angel "Metatron," led the Israelites through the wilderness. It was Christ the anointed one, whose spirit filled the body of his earthly host, "Jesus" and used that body to fulfil the mission that was given to him by God. Isaiah 6: 8-19; (8) Then I heard the Lord say, "Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?" It was Christ who answered, "I will go! Send me!" (9) So the Lord told Him to go and give the people this message: "No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening." Then God said to Him, "Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand, If they did, they might turn to me and be healed."

Matthew 13: 14; The reason I use parables in talking to the people, said Christ through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, is that they will look, but will not see, and they listen, but hear not, nor understand. (14) So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them; "This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me says God, and I would heal them, (While still in their sins.)
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 11:42:04 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

The 'you must be 'saved' or else', doctrine is unpleasant and crazy!
be_diligent
Posts: 399
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 12:21:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 9:45:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
This Enoch, who ascended to the very ends of time, witnessed the ends of the universe, as was taught to Peter by our Lord. Enoch watched as the universal elements, burnt up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss/Black Hole of origin, which Enoch described as the prison of all the stars and the host of Heaven, beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the universe had existed, this included himself, who, [In the Big Crunch] entered into the Logos, as the supreme personality to have evolved in that cycle of universal manifestation, when all that exists descended through space and time to the very beginning, before space and time had begun.

It was He, "The Light of Man" who in the beginning cried out, "Let there be light," as he observed the invisible pool of universal genetic information (The Logos) that had been gathered over the eons of eternity, express itself, Not as the spoken word, but in the resurrection of the universal body in the which the supreme Personality of the Logos, which was the life and the Light of man, had evolved.

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

And the Most High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man,) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

And the Lord summoned one of his arch-angels by name Pravuil, whose knowledge was quicker in wisdom than the other arch-angels, who wrote all the deeds of the Lord; and the Lord said to Pravuil: "Bring out the books from my store-houses, and a reed of quick writing, and give it to Enoch, and deliver to him the choice and comforting books out of thy hand.

The Lord then commanded Enoch to write down the names of every person who would ever live and the position for each soul into all eternity, for all souls are prepared to eternity. Enoch, who later duplicated himself in Jesus recorded the book of life.

The book continues to speak of Enoch"s writing, how he wrote his wonderful Journeying and the heavenly apparitions that he witnessed in his ascent to the end of all time, then after Enoch had been escorted to the ends of this cycle of universal activity, and had witnessed the end of all things and beheld the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss (Black Hole) which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which was nothing but a horrible waste, and he had recorded all that he had seen in his 366 books, God gave him thirty days in which to return to earth and reveal his writings to his children.

After telling the escorting angels to return Enoch to earth for thirty days, in order to reveal his writing to his sons, an ancient angel colder than ice was called forward to touch Enoch, and "The Most High" said to him, "Enoch, If thy face were not frozen here, no man on earth would be able to behold thee."

After revealing all that he had seen to his children, which is contained in too many chapters to bother about here, in chapter 50, Enoch says to his children; "I have put every man"s work in writing and none born on earth can remain hidden nor his works remain concealed. I see all things. Now therefore, my children, in patience and meekness spend the number of your days that you may inherit endless life, etc. In chapter 50: 2; Enoch says this to his pre-flood children, "You see how I wrote all the works of everyman, BEFORE HIS CREATION etc."

Our future is not predetermined as some may believe, but the Son of Man, [The Omega] who descends to the very beginning of time, [The Alpha] knows everything that every person has ever done in his dead past.

The book of Enoch can not even be verified. There is more than one, and even they do not agree.

It was supposedly written before the time of Noah. I guess some think that Noah had a copy of it in his back pocket on the ark....yeah....
be_diligent
Posts: 399
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 12:36:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

Wow, your profile says that you are 110 years old. You must have had plenty of time to search this out, and know that Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Him.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

2. Points here.

The OT speaks expressively about Jesus. Some knew who He was even then.

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Psalms:

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Jesus did not just show up in the NT. He's always been there.

Those in the OT, who wrote about Him knew Him and expected his arrival.

As it says in Rev, "slain before the foundation of the earth."

Jesus has always been the way, the truth and the life. His is the word, He has been speaking since the beginning.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He quoted His own word to those who denied Him, continuously in the NT.

What parts of the earth today do you believe haven't heard of HIM?

As for before His birth into this world, that is between God and men, I wouldn't even speculate. I do trust that God knows what He is doing.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I wanted to add more of Rev 13, to be clear.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Even in Rev, the names that are not written in the book of life of the LAMB, slain from the foundations of the earth will follow after the beast.

We are already seeing much of this...even on this forum.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 3:38:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM, be_diligent wrote:
I wanted to add more of Rev 13, to be clear.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Even in Rev, the names that are not written in the book of life of the LAMB, slain from the foundations of the earth will follow after the beast.

We are already seeing much of this...even on this forum.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The person who wrote the crazy book of Revelation must have been either drunk or as high as a kite on a substance, which would be illegal today. Still it gives the Christian extremists something on which to concentrate their overactive imaginations, LOL!
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 7:38:27 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 12:36:22 PM, be_diligent wrote:
"Wow, your profile says that you are 110 years old. You must have had plenty of time to search this out, and know that Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Him."
i have far more verses that say otherwise.
"Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
And that implies believing in him how,
2. Points here.
"Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
That does not support your case either.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
That does not support your case either.
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
That does not support your case either.
Jesus did not just show up in the NT. He's always been there.
That does not support your case either.
Those in the OT, who wrote about Him knew Him and expected his arrival.
That does not support your case either.
As it says in Rev, "slain before the foundation of the earth."
That does not support your case either.
Jesus has always been the way, the truth and the life. His is the word, He has been speaking since the beginning.
That does not support your case either.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That does not support your case either.
He quoted His own word to those who denied Him, continuously in the NT.
That does not support your case either.
What parts of the earth today do you believe haven't heard of HIM?
Oh Africa, China, this was not the point anyway, the point is that they said that babies will go to hell because they do not believe in Jesus, not because they sinned, but because they were born in sin, and I quoted Ezekiel chapter 18 whee god EXPLICITLY says that children will not be punished for their parents sins, not by him at least.
As for before His birth into this world, that is between God and men, I wouldn't even speculate. I do trust that God knows what He is doing.
That does not support your case either.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 7:42:27 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:38:06 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM, be_diligent wrote:
I wanted to add more of Rev 13, to be clear.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Even in Rev, the names that are not written in the book of life of the LAMB, slain from the foundations of the earth will follow after the beast.

We are already seeing much of this...even on this forum.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The person who wrote the crazy book of Revelation must have been either drunk or as high as a kite on a substance, which would be illegal today. Still it gives the Christian extremists something on which to concentrate their overactive imaginations, LOL!

Regardless of what you think, the call still goes out to you young man. That is how merciful our God is.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 7:43:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM, be_diligent wrote:
I wanted to add more of Rev 13, to be clear.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Even in Rev, the names that are not written in the book of life of the LAMB, slain from the foundations of the earth will follow after the beast.

We are already seeing much of this...even on this forum.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
This is not blaspheme, I brought up 8 bible verses and you brought up one, all 8 of mine support my case, so there you go, also, the lambs book of life records those who are saved, which according to you i those who believe in Jesus, only, but the rest of the bible says otherwise.
be_diligent
Posts: 399
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2016 8:05:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

I bought in more than one verse harrytrumen, and I never accused you of blasphemy.

As for innocent little children, and those who have other issues that prevent them from understanding the truth, I do believe that they enter into heaven. In fact, I personally believe that they are some of God's most precious gifts to us.

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Matthew 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

As for those who continuously reject Jesus, there is no other name under heaven by which a man must be saved.

There is just one way, one truth and one life.

Those who you listed knew who Jesus was, as I showed in the MORE than one verses that were shared.

You don't have to make things up to try to sound correct sir.

Enoch, according to the bible, walked with God.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

As for Elijah, He knew and does know who Jesus is.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Jesus even spoke of Elijah:

Mark 9:13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him."

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

The same God who sent His son to die for us.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The same book that Moses referenced, as I showed along with the other verses that I shared.
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2016 2:18:26 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:05:34 PM, be_diligent wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

I bought in more than one verse harrytrumen, and I never accused you of blasphemy.

As for innocent little children, and those who have other issues that prevent them from understanding the truth, I do believe that they enter into heaven. In fact, I personally believe that they are some of God's most precious gifts to us.

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Matthew 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

As for those who continuously reject Jesus, there is no other name under heaven by which a man must be saved.

There is just one way, one truth and one life.
I didn't say there was more than one way to salvation, I just said that god isn't going to hold someones not getting a chance against them, besides, Ezekiel says that god will not account sins to you if you turn away from a sinful life and basically repent.
Those who you listed knew who Jesus was, as I showed in the MORE than one verses that were shared.

You don't have to make things up to try to sound correct sir.

Enoch, according to the bible, walked with God.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

As for Elijah, He knew and does know who Jesus is.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Jesus even spoke of Elijah:

Mark 9:13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him."

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

The same God who sent His son to die for us.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The same book that Moses referenced, as I showed along with the other verses that I shared.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2016 4:10:40 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM, be_diligent wrote:

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Be- diligent wrote.......Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Correction by Gentorev.........Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, [except for those] whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

And the Lord summoned one of his arch-angels by name Pravuil, whose knowledge was quicker in wisdom than the other arch-angels, who wrote all the deeds of the Lord; and the Lord said to Pravuil: "Bring out the books from my store-houses, and a reed of quick writing, and give it to Enoch, and deliver to him the choice and comforting books out of thy hand.

The Lord then commanded Enoch to write down the names of every person who would ever live and the position for each soul into all eternity, for all souls are prepared to eternity. Enoch, who later duplicated himself in Jesus recorded the book of life.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."

There is a period of three thousand years or three days between Enoch and Jesus.

Enoch was in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years,) before duplicating himself on earth in the body of the man Jesus, who was filled with the spirit of Our most righteous heavenly Father (Enoch).

Like Enoch, the fiery prophet Elijah who was taken up to stand before Enoch three thousand years ago, has also now been in the valley of man for three days, and we are now at the close of the sixth day, at the dawning of the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

The seventh day, is the Great Sabbath, the reality of which the weekly Sabbath was merely the shadow, "The Day of the Lord" in which he shall judge the whole world with Justice for one thousand years (One Day).

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN He has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN (Jesus) from death.

Jesus was the man that "Who I Am" chose from among the Israelites and sent him to speak in his name.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; The Lord said unto Moses: "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people. I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name and I will punish anyone who refuses to obey him, etc."

This is verified by Peter who says in reference to the man Jesus in Acts 3: 22; "For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied through Moses, that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

1st Timothy 1:1; "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of "GOD OUR SAVIOUR" and Christ Jesus "OUR HOPE."

Jesus admits that he spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by our Lord God and saviour, who chose him as the one to speak in his name, "Who I Am," and Jesus says in John 5: 24; "Whoever hear my words (The words that he was commanded to say) and believes in "HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

John 14: 24; "And the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father"s who sent me.

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus, which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove?

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?" They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by "Who I Am," who raised that body which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus-

Jesus was the earthly host body through who the spirit of our Lord God and saviour (The anointed one) revealed himself to mankind.

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

The word "CHRIST" means the anointed one, and it was Enoch who was anointed to stand before the face of the Most High into all eternity.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2016 10:51:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Elijah is soon to appear on earth immediately before the great and terrible day of the Lord. It is when Elijah appears and chooses those who will sit upon the thrones that have been prepared for them to rule with Christ for the thousand years of peace on earth, that the only begotten prophet of God will then descend from the heights of time and enter the body of the man Jesus, where he will be treated with outrage and hung upon a tree, where the veil of that temple (The body of Jesus) will be torn and the spirit of the Lord shall be passed onto the Gentiles as fire poured forth, and He (The man Jesus) shall pass from earth into heaven.

While the body of the one chosen as the host body to the fiery prophet Elijah, will be quickened by his living presence and will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from a body of corruptible matter, into a body of incorruptible and brilliant, blinding light.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 9:59:48 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 4:10:40 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/8/2016 12:44:15 PM, be_diligent wrote:

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Moses knew about this "book of life." And he interceded for the people.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Moses had a true heart for God, and a true love for the people.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Be- diligent wrote.......Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Correction by Gentorev.........Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, [except for those] whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

And the Lord summoned one of his arch-angels by name Pravuil, whose knowledge was quicker in wisdom than the other arch-angels, who wrote all the deeds of the Lord; and the Lord said to Pravuil: "Bring out the books from my store-houses, and a reed of quick writing, and give it to Enoch, and deliver to him the choice and comforting books out of thy hand.

The Lord then commanded Enoch to write down the names of every person who would ever live and the position for each soul into all eternity, for all souls are prepared to eternity. Enoch, who later duplicated himself in Jesus recorded the book of life.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."

There is a period of three thousand years or three days between Enoch and Jesus.

Enoch was in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years,) before duplicating himself on earth in the body of the man Jesus, who was filled with the spirit of Our most righteous heavenly Father (Enoch).

Like Enoch, the fiery prophet Elijah who was taken up to stand before Enoch three thousand years ago, has also now been in the valley of man for three days, and we are now at the close of the sixth day, at the dawning of the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

The seventh day, is the Great Sabbath, the reality of which the weekly Sabbath was merely the shadow, "The Day of the Lord" in which he shall judge the whole world with Justice for one thousand years (One Day).

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN He has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN (Jesus) from death.

Jesus was the man that "Who I Am" chose from among the Israelites and sent him to speak in his name.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; The Lord said unto Moses: "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people. I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name and I will punish anyone who refuses to obey him, etc."

This is verified by Peter who says in reference to the man Jesus in Acts 3: 22; "For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied through Moses, that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

1st Timothy 1:1; "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of "GOD OUR SAVIOUR" and Christ Jesus "OUR HOPE."

Jesus admits that he spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by our Lord God and saviour, who chose him as the one to speak in his name, "Who I Am," and Jesus says in John 5: 24; "Whoever hear my words (The words that he was commanded to say) and believes in "HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

John 14: 24; "And the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father"s who sent me.

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus, which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove?

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?" They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by "Who I Am," who raised that body which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus-

Jesus was the earthly host body through who the spirit of our Lord God and saviour (The anointed one) revealed himself to mankind.

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

The word "CHRIST" means the anointed one, and it was Enoch who was anointed to stand before the face of the Most High into all eternity.

1 Peter 1: 20; "He, (Jesus) had been chosen by God before the creation of this world (21) " Through Him (Jesus) you believe in God who raised him from death and gave him glory: and so your faith and hope are fixed on God.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

That is why there is only one true path. Matthew 7:13-14.

That is why there is only one true Christianity. Matthew 7:21-23.

That is also why, in this time of the end, Satan has created thousands of false trails to lead the unwary, or insufficiently caring, astray.

All who deny the truth of what scripture clearly shows us, whether they realise it or not, are doing Satan's work, and will be judged accordingly.

That "volcano" was fully activated again in 1930, and has been continually erupting ever since destroying lies, and fighting against the works of Satan. Ephesians 6:10-18.

We do not fight with men, just with Satan and his lies.

Now is the time to wake up and to take that one true path.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 4:26:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

So what if someone tells you about Jesus, but the person who tells you is completely incompetent and is shockingly unconvincing.

Would you go to hell because the other person is incompetent?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 5:24:27 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

That's not the reason God sent His Son.

When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

Could you offer some evidence that God "granted them His name to carry" in 1930?

Were the first-century disciples of Christ, including the apostles, not "well enough trained" to wear the name Jehovah's Witnesses?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 9:40:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 5:24:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

That's not the reason God sent His Son.

That is not the entire reason, no, there is a lot more to it than that, but it is a part of it, and why he was sent to the "lost Sheep of ISrael" as he himself pointed out.

Jesus ministry had a number of purposes but bringing people back to his father was very much a part of it, which is why I brought it in here. Luke 20:9-16.

If you need that illustration explained, just ask.


When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

Could you offer some evidence that God "granted them His name to carry" in 1930?

I have already shown you some of the evidence but all you did was mock it (Matthew 7:6) why should I show you more? You need to learn a lot more about the WTBTS than you are interested in learning to understand that fully, but they would be more than happy to give you all the proof you need, if you were open to it, and were not determined to be like those Christ describes at Matthew 13:15.

You and I both know that you have hardened your heart against the spirit, or you would know who they are.

It takes some people longer to see Jehovah's hand at work than it does others. I now seriously doubt that you will ever see it until you are forced to. I would love you to prove me wrong on that.

However the answer lies in the scripture you twist and deny, but then that is why you twist and deny them.

They remain however the people Jehovah has set aside for his name.


Were the first-century disciples of Christ, including the apostles, not "well enough trained" to wear the name Jehovah's Witnesses?

They were perfectly trained for forming the basis for what was to come. Nothing more, nothing less. They knew all they needed to know for the job they had to do. However there was a much greater work to come in this time of the end.

However as Christ and the Apostles foretold, the faith was to all but disappear after the death of the last Apostle, the death of the last of those who kept the faith on the right path, and settled all disputes. John was the last of those ones who had the authority to keep the man of lawlessness, the AntiChrist who would soon take over at bay. Remember Jesus statement recorded at Luke 18:8? When he again turned his attention to the earth he found none of the true faith in existence just as he had feared, and had to start all over again.

That is also why the faith was allowed to die out when the Apostasy struck, because it was not time yet for the final things to be brought to light.

They didn't know when the end of the Gentile Times was, because they would not live to see it. It wasn't due until 1914. That is why Jesus told them it was not for them to know the times and the seasons. Acts 1:7. They would not be known for another 1800 years or so.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 11:16:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 9:40:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/10/2016 5:24:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

That's not the reason God sent His Son.

That is not the entire reason, no, there is a lot more to it than that, but it is a part of it, and why he was sent to the "lost Sheep of ISrael" as he himself pointed out.

If it's a "part of it", it must be such an inconsequential "part" that it doesn't matter.


When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

Could you offer some evidence that God "granted them His name to carry" in 1930?

I have already shown you some of the evidence but all you did was mock it (Matthew 7:6) why should I show you more?

Well, show the rest of it. I'd like to see the other 99.9%, because what you showed didn't amount to evidence at all.

Were the first-century disciples of Christ, including the apostles, not "well enough trained" to wear the name Jehovah's Witnesses?

They were perfectly trained for forming the basis for what was to come. Nothing more, nothing less. They knew all they needed to know for the job they had to do. However there was a much greater work to come in this time of the end.

... but Paul and Peter and John just weren't "well enough trained" to wear the name "Jehovah's Witness", eh?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2016 11:44:56 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 11:16:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 9:40:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/10/2016 5:24:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

That's not the reason God sent His Son.

That is not the entire reason, no, there is a lot more to it than that, but it is a part of it, and why he was sent to the "lost Sheep of ISrael" as he himself pointed out.

If it's a "part of it", it must be such an inconsequential "part" that it doesn't matter.

Oh no, it was a vital part of it. Jehovah had no people for his name at that time Judaism was far from the truth, and the people were, as Jesus said, like sheep without a shepherd. He had to make a start on gathering his little flock which herd his voice and came to his side.

Without that there was no point in the rest of his ministry, or in his sacrifice.

Without that his sacrifice has no purpose because there is no-one to save.

I have to admit, every time you reveal another layer of your ignorance I am astounded, but you continue to reveal even grater areas of ignorance with sickening regularity.

Now you reveal how little of what Christ taught you have any knowledge of.



When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

Could you offer some evidence that God "granted them His name to carry" in 1930?

I have already shown you some of the evidence but all you did was mock it (Matthew 7:6) why should I show you more?

Well, show the rest of it. I'd like to see the other 99.9%, because what you showed didn't amount to evidence at all.

In your eyes it din't, in the eyes of those open to the spirit it does. They can see the uniqueness of the organisation and see the spirit at work in them.

You are as blind and deaf to the spirit, as those who were like you in Jesus day, as he commented at Matthew 13:15.

If Christ were literally to come to earth you would argue with him, or ignore him, as you do his people, and as your equivalents did when he walked the earth.

I still hope you will wake up one day, but I'm not holding my breath.


Were the first-century disciples of Christ, including the apostles, not "well enough trained" to wear the name Jehovah's Witnesses?

They were perfectly trained for forming the basis for what was to come. Nothing more, nothing less. They knew all they needed to know for the job they had to do. However there was a much greater work to come in this time of the end.

... but Paul and Peter and John just weren't "well enough trained" to wear the name "Jehovah's Witness", eh?

They had the name "Israel of God" they needed nothing more at that time.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2016 12:04:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 11:44:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/10/2016 11:16:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 9:40:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/10/2016 5:24:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:34:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

If what you say were true, why was there only ever one route to God in the past?

There can only be one truth, that much should be obvious, the only question is, who is teaching it?

First it was the Patriarchs.

Then it was Israel.

When they proved unfaithful one time too many Jehovah sent his son to gather the few who wished to be faithful and formed a new Spiritual ISrael, the "Israel of God". Galatians 6:16.

That's not the reason God sent His Son.

That is not the entire reason, no, there is a lot more to it than that, but it is a part of it, and why he was sent to the "lost Sheep of ISrael" as he himself pointed out.

If it's a "part of it", it must be such an inconsequential "part" that it doesn't matter.

Oh no, it was a vital part of it. Jehovah had no people for his name at that time Judaism was far from the truth, and the people were, as Jesus said, like sheep without a shepherd. He had to make a start on gathering his little flock which herd his voice and came to his side.

Without that there was no point in the rest of his ministry, or in his sacrifice.

Without that his sacrifice has no purpose because there is no-one to save.

I have to admit, every time you reveal another layer of your ignorance I am astounded, but you continue to reveal even grater areas of ignorance with sickening regularity.

Now you reveal how little of what Christ taught you have any knowledge of.



When they too were soon corrupted he allowed that nation to lie dormant, like a volcano waiting to erupt, and at the right time, this time of the end, he called together a few faithful ones to his son's side so his son could train them.

By 1930 they were well enough trained for Jehovah to grant them his name to carry.

Could you offer some evidence that God "granted them His name to carry" in 1930?

I have already shown you some of the evidence but all you did was mock it (Matthew 7:6) why should I show you more?

Well, show the rest of it. I'd like to see the other 99.9%, because what you showed didn't amount to evidence at all.

In your eyes it din't, in the eyes of those open to the spirit it does. They can see the uniqueness of the organisation and see the spirit at work in them.

You are as blind and deaf to the spirit, as those who were like you in Jesus day, as he commented at Matthew 13:15.

If Christ were literally to come to earth you would argue with him, or ignore him, as you do his people, and as your equivalents did when he walked the earth.

I still hope you will wake up one day, but I'm not holding my breath.


Were the first-century disciples of Christ, including the apostles, not "well enough trained" to wear the name Jehovah's Witnesses?

They were perfectly trained for forming the basis for what was to come. Nothing more, nothing less. They knew all they needed to know for the job they had to do. However there was a much greater work to come in this time of the end.

... but Paul and Peter and John just weren't "well enough trained" to wear the name "Jehovah's Witness", eh?

They had the name "Israel of God" they needed nothing more at that time.

"Israel of God", or "Israel of Jehovah"?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2016 3:25:32 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 4:26:19 PM, Ramshutu wrote:

So what if someone tells you about Jesus, but the person who tells you is completely incompetent and is shockingly unconvincing.

Would you go to hell because the other person is incompetent?

Do you mean someone like the supposed Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, and who, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who is not mentioned in the bible, but who, according to this St Clement was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother"s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Down to the 17th century, Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clement's life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," you can say that again. But by then the falsehood was firmly established and its seeds had taken root in all the nations of the world. The Lord now has need of some good gardeners, to help root out those noxious weeds.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2016 4:15:02 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/11/2016 3:25:32 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/10/2016 4:26:19 PM, Ramshutu wrote:

So what if someone tells you about Jesus, but the person who tells you is completely incompetent and is shockingly unconvincing.

Would you go to hell because the other person is incompetent?

Do you mean someone like the supposed Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, and who, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who is not mentioned in the bible, but who, according to this St Clement was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother"s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Down to the 17th century, Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clement's life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," you can say that again. But by then the falsehood was firmly established and its seeds had taken root in all the nations of the world. The Lord now has need of some good gardeners, to help root out those noxious weeds.

Uh. No.

I mean, what if you had some tribesman somewhere who had never heard of Jesus, couldn't read, and an incompetent missionary simply said "Jesus was the son of God, died for your sins, worship him or die", and the tribesman said "uh, no". He obviously knows about Jesus, but doesn't really; does he go to hell?
harrytruman
Posts: 812
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2016 6:19:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 4:26:19 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/8/2016 8:43:28 AM, harrytruman wrote:
So, there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 1 verses 23 through 24 says that Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says that Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 says Lazarus also went to heaven and he was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says that if you know Jesus, you are saved; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8, you find out that Johns definition of knowing god is loving your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period, I'd love to see your replies.

So what if someone tells you about Jesus, but the person who tells you is completely incompetent and is shockingly unconvincing.

Would you go to hell because the other person is incompetent?
Ezekiel 3:18:
"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
Ezekiel 33:6:
"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."