Total Posts:63|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Niqab / Face Veil

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 5:46:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The status of niqab (face veil) in Islam is disputed by many people. I will give an explanation of Shari'a principles soon Insha'Allah, but if anyone wants to know whether or not the face veil is obligatory in Islam, then they are welcome to ask. If someone has some arguments from e.g. the Qur'an that they think are in favor of the niqab, then they are very welcome to cite them and I will explain what they mean.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 6:14:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
How do you convince yourself that women having to do something that men don't is in any way shape or form acceptable?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 6:20:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 6:14:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
How do you convince yourself that women having to do something that men don't is in any way shape or form acceptable?
Well, as I said, the question is whether or not it is obligatory, so I can answer your question and justify the niqab only if I say that it is obligatory, but I have not said thait is obligatory.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 7:00:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 6:20:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/20/2010 6:14:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
How do you convince yourself that women having to do something that men don't is in any way shape or form acceptable?
Well, as I said, the question is whether or not it is obligatory, so I can answer your question and justify the niqab only if I say that it is obligatory, but I have not said thait is obligatory.

You're a very clever man.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
beem0r
Posts: 1,155
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 7:15:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 6:20:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/20/2010 6:14:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
How do you convince yourself that women having to do something that men don't is in any way shape or form acceptable?
Well, as I said, the question is whether or not it is obligatory, so I can answer your question and justify the niqab only if I say that it is obligatory, but I have not said thait is obligatory.

Are women allowed to beat their husbands according to Islamic teaching?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 7:17:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:15:48 PM, beem0r wrote:
Are women allowed to beat their husbands according to Islamic teaching?
That is not what the face veil is used for...

Irrelevant.
beem0r
Posts: 1,155
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 7:43:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:17:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:15:48 PM, beem0r wrote:
Are women allowed to beat their husbands according to Islamic teaching?
That is not what the face veil is used for...
Irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Qu'ran treats women fairly. I just wanted to know if women were afforded equal rights on the issue of spousal abuse.

I guess I can understand your deflection, though. I would want to avoid the question in your position, too.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 7:59:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:17:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
http://tinyurl.com...

Pretty much how I feel about it Bee0r.

What'll happen if I click that? I don't trust your links anymore.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 8:02:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:59:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:17:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
http://tinyurl.com...

Pretty much how I feel about it Bee0r.

What'll happen if I click that? I don't trust your links anymore.

Lol, why not? It talks about women in islam/bible and where they stand on the control scale.
kfc
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 8:08:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 8:02:44 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:59:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:17:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
http://tinyurl.com...

Pretty much how I feel about it Bee0r.

What'll happen if I click that? I don't trust your links anymore.

Lol, why not? It talks about women in islam/bible and where they stand on the control scale.

F*ck you.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 8:10:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Time to go on the attack:

At 10/20/2010 5:46:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
if anyone wants to know whether or not the face veil is obligatory in Islam, then they are welcome to ask.
We need not ask, we already know what you will say.
"That is out of context."
"That is a metaphor."
"Blah, blah, blah."
Semantical arguments and linguistic loopholes.

It may not OBLIGATORY according to Qur'an, but in many Islam-centric parts of the world (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, UAE, ect, ect.) not wearing it in public would result in women receiving social outcast status and probably physical violence despensed in the name of Allah.

This head-dress is completely oppressive and I find it offensive that some middle-eastern women have been brain-washed into thinking they should wear it because of some misguilded ideal about modesty.

Fvck the Hijab/Niqab.
Hail Satan, my glorious lord.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 8:11:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 8:08:13 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 10/20/2010 8:02:44 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:59:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:17:40 PM, Koopin wrote:
http://tinyurl.com...

Pretty much how I feel about it Bee0r.

What'll happen if I click that? I don't trust your links anymore.

Lol, why not? It talks about women in islam/bible and where they stand on the control scale.

F*ck you.

We're no strangers to love babe! You know the rules, and so do I!!!
kfc
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 10:36:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, it's not required. The hijab is, however. I don't see much of a problem with women wearing hijabs. The niqab can become a problem though.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2010 10:59:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:17:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/20/2010 7:15:48 PM, beem0r wrote:
Are women allowed to beat their husbands according to Islamic teaching?
That is not what the face veil is used for...
you can probably tie him up with it though.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 6:53:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 7:43:18 PM, beem0r wrote:
It's not irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Qu'ran treats women fairly. I just wanted to know if women were afforded equal rights on the issue of spousal abuse.

I guess I can understand your deflection, though. I would want to avoid the question in your position, too.
People want to go too much off topic when I make threads like this, which I want to avoid.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 6:56:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 8:10:11 PM, tvellalott wrote:
We need not ask, we already know what you will say.
"That is out of context."
"That is a metaphor."
"Blah, blah, blah."
Semantical arguments and linguistic loopholes.
I argue as should be argued. I hardly say "metaphor" unless there is a good reason for that.

It may not OBLIGATORY according to Qur'an, but in many Islam-centric parts of the world (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, UAE, ect, ect.) not wearing it in public would result in women receiving social outcast status and probably physical violence despensed in the name of Allah.
Not true.

This head-dress is completely oppressive and I find it offensive that some middle-eastern women have been brain-washed into thinking they should wear it because of some misguilded ideal about modesty.
Mini-skirts, leggings, etc. are far more oppressive and far more deadly. Anorexia itself leads to more horrible cases than it does when all the women in the Middle East wear burqa. Anorexia is spreading due to the evil role models who teenage girls look up to every single day.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 7:34:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/20/2010 10:36:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
No, it's not required. The hijab is, however. I don't see much of a problem with women wearing hijabs. The niqab can become a problem though.

I think their are varying interpretations on this, while modest dress in general is clearly required, I don't think it's that clear that the headscarf is. I know muslim women who don't wear one, including my daughter's school headmistress, while there are also several parents at the school who wear full niqab.

http://www.islamfortoday.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.payvand.com...
Veridas
Posts: 733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 7:42:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 6:56:00 AM, Mirza wrote:

Mini-skirts, leggings, etc. are far more oppressive and far more deadly. Anorexia itself leads to more horrible cases than it does when all the women in the Middle East wear burqa. Anorexia is spreading due to the evil role models who teenage girls look up to every single day.

Sorry for butting in, but two things

1: Show us an example of a girl being killed, maimed or made a social outcast for NOT wearing a miniskirt.

2: Obesity levels are rising, genius
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

I can understand you not understanding the West and how we do things by what each person thinks is right and all, but we formulate our opinions on you by reading about you, could you proffer the same courtesy KTHX?
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 7:46:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 7:42:02 AM, Veridas wrote:
Sorry for butting in, but two things

1: Show us an example of a girl being killed, maimed or made a social outcast for NOT wearing a miniskirt.
No, I can do the opposite, show where she is molested for doing so.

2: Obesity levels are rising, genius
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://news.bbc.co.uk...
It never invalidates the fact that there is anorexia, and that it is caused by social factors. Obesity has nothing to do with anorexia. The opposite of a concept A does not invalidate it.

I can understand you not understanding the West and how we do things by what each person thinks is right and all, but we formulate our opinions on you by reading about you, could you proffer the same courtesy KTHX?
Yes.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 7:48:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 7:34:20 AM, feverish wrote:
I think their are varying interpretations on this, while modest dress in general is clearly required, I don't think it's that clear that the headscarf is. I know muslim women who don't wear one, including my daughter's school headmistress, while there are also several parents at the school who wear full niqab.

http://www.islamfortoday.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.payvand.com...
The niqab is worn by women either by free will or because they might be pressured to by their husbands. This is undeniable. However, Islam does not make it obligatory, and the people who say that it is obligatory do it on weak evidence, which the majority of the fuqaha have refuted. However, I always say that if a woman does not want to be forced to wear the face veil, she can apply that to the marriage contract, and period.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 8:33:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 7:48:50 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/21/2010 7:34:20 AM, feverish wrote:
I think their are varying interpretations on this, while modest dress in general is clearly required, I don't think it's that clear that the headscarf is. I know muslim women who don't wear one, including my daughter's school headmistress, while there are also several parents at the school who wear full niqab.

http://www.islamfortoday.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.payvand.com...
The niqab is worn by women either by free will or because they might be pressured to by their husbands. This is undeniable. However, Islam does not make it obligatory, and the people who say that it is obligatory do it on weak evidence, which the majority of the fuqaha have refuted. However, I always say that if a woman does not want to be forced to wear the face veil, she can apply that to the marriage contract, and period.

Yeah I get that, the point I was making was about the standard hijab headscarf. You and Insert both say it is compulsory but some Muslims clearly don't think so, see sources.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 8:36:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 8:33:03 AM, feverish wrote:
Yeah I get that, the point I was making was about the standard hijab headscarf. You and Insert both say it is compulsory but some Muslims clearly don't think so, see sources.
I understand.

They are usually Qur'anists, those who neglect the sunnah, or the teaching of the beloved Prophet.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 8:38:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
But if they say that you can be a Muslim without wearing hijab, that is correct. It does not constitute Faith but helps in it. For one to be a Muslim, he needs to accept many things, not just one. Morality and modesty go hand in hand, for example. A woman with burqa who has no sense of morality is not better than a woman who is half-naked but has good moral values apart from that.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 8:53:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 8:38:23 AM, Mirza wrote:
But if they say that you can be a Muslim without wearing hijab, that is correct. It does not constitute Faith but helps in it. For one to be a Muslim, he needs to accept many things, not just one. Morality and modesty go hand in hand, for example. A woman with burqa who has no sense of morality is not better than a woman who is half-naked but has good moral values apart from that.

Yeah, I was wondering if others would still consider them as Muslims or not, so thanks for answering.

As for you personally, what do you think is immodest about a woman's hair? If a woman is wearing loose clothing that hides her figure, what is wrong with showing her hair? I would have thought a pretty face would be more enticing than a bit of hair. Some women who wear hijab still look hot to me.

Do you just agree with it because it is written, or do you think there is good reason for viewing hair the same way as sexual organs?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 8:57:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 8:53:40 AM, feverish wrote:
Yeah, I was wondering if others would still consider them as Muslims or not, so thanks for answering.
No problem.

As for you personally, what do you think is immodest about a woman's hair? If a woman is wearing loose clothing that hides her figure, what is wrong with showing her hair? I would have thought a pretty face would be more enticing than a bit of hair. Some women who wear hijab still look hot to me.
Well, the eyes of men are mostly directed at the bosoms, which I think we agree with. A woman can look beautiful with the hijab, but we men do not get "turned on" due to her face without the hair being displayed.

Do you just agree with it because it is written, or do you think there is good reason for viewing hair the same way as sexual organs?
Not the same way, but I personally have my views. I think women can be very "magical" with their appearance, and the hair plays a role.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 9:09:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 8:57:01 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/21/2010 8:53:40 AM, feverish wrote:

As for you personally, what do you think is immodest about a woman's hair? If a woman is wearing loose clothing that hides her figure, what is wrong with showing her hair? I would have thought a pretty face would be more enticing than a bit of hair. Some women who wear hijab still look hot to me.
Well, the eyes of men are mostly directed at the bosoms, which I think we agree with.

Breasts are great of course, but personally I'm often more aroused by a woman's face or the shape of her hips and backside.

A woman can look beautiful with the hijab, but we men do not get "turned on" due to her face without the hair being displayed.

Well I'm a man and I do sometimes. If a pretty woman smiles at me in a certain way, I'll get turned on whether or not I can see her hair.

Some men (not me lol) may actually develop a fetish for hijab or even niqab, which surely defeats the point of them, although I expect this has more to do with the "forbidden fruit" aspect.

Do you just agree with it because it is written, or do you think there is good reason for viewing hair the same way as sexual organs?
Not the same way, but I personally have my views. I think women can be very "magical" with their appearance, and the hair plays a role.

I expect that the "magic" you experience is down to something called hormones and is perfectly natural.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/21/2010 9:13:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/21/2010 9:09:44 AM, feverish wrote:
Breasts are great of course, but personally I'm often more aroused by a woman's face or the shape of her hips and backside.
Yes, but more men lean on the bosoms. Face is usually for a long term relationship, which is why Islam permits a man to look at the face of the woman who he might want to marry.

Well I'm a man and I do sometimes. If a pretty woman smiles at me in a certain way, I'll get turned on whether or not I can see her hair.
That is why Islam tells the sexes not to look at each other deliberately.

Some men (not me lol) may actually develop a fetish for hijab or even niqab, which surely defeats the point of them, although I expect this has more to do with the "forbidden fruit" aspect.
Well, think about the fact that they can be old women, too.

I expect that the "magic" you experience is down to something called hormones and is perfectly natural.
Yes, but it is not always good.