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Omnipotence and Systems

Chaosism
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1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.
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Pandit
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1/13/2016 3:27:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
My personal Opinion :

Universe is the creation of an impersonal being .

Everything that exists , those existed and those which exist in future are a part of this impersonal being .
Gods are the Creation of Man , Man and Gods are Creations of that being .
Chaosism
Posts: 2,673
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1/13/2016 3:37:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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1/13/2016 3:43:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 3:37:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?

I don't feel as though it would. Limiting one's power in this scope just means not using it immediately. By being in another reality, yet still viewing/knowing about the reality created, it doesn't do anything to prevent the omnipotent entity from re-engaging should it see fit. I don't feel omnipotence is defined as all power AND using it at all times.
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Chaosism
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1/13/2016 3:56:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 3:43:04 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:37:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?

I don't feel as though it would. Limiting one's power in this scope just means not using it immediately. By being in another reality, yet still viewing/knowing about the reality created, it doesn't do anything to prevent the omnipotent entity from re-engaging should it see fit. I don't feel omnipotence is defined as all power AND using it at all times.

Yes, that is the primary aspect of this issue that I am contemplating. So, let me address this from another angle: is it possible for such a system to operate in any way that is contrary to this omnipotent being's will?

To formulate a hypothetical example for the sake of clarity, say we consider the established system that constitutes gravity. If a ball is rolling down a slope (as an operation of that system), is it at all possible that the ball could roll along a path that is contrary to an omnipotent being's will?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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1/13/2016 4:04:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?

I don't feel as though it would. Limiting one's power in this scope just means not using it immediately. By being in another reality, yet still viewing/knowing about the reality created, it doesn't do anything to prevent the omnipotent entity from re-engaging should it see fit. I don't feel omnipotence is defined as all power AND using it at all times.

Yes, that is the primary aspect of this issue that I am contemplating. So, let me address this from another angle: is it possible for such a system to operate in any way that is contrary to this omnipotent being's will?

Depends on the will of the entity. If the will was for it to simply sully on in existence, clearly. If there was a particular design for the creation or system... Hm. I want to say it could, but that would mean ultimately that the will of an omnipotent entity in its creation would be denied: a contradiction of sorts. One can't deny an omnipotent will. Interesting prongs!

To formulate a hypothetical example for the sake of clarity, say we consider the established system that constitutes gravity. If a ball is rolling down a slope (as an operation of that system), is it at all possible that the ball could roll along a path that is contrary to an omnipotent being's will?

Yes, I see where you are coming from. This would juxtapose an omnipotent "will" and a free but limited will. How can the two be reconciled and still exist in the same reality?

Which I think answers our question. Essentially, what is proposed in this example is the immovable/immutable property of free will with the irresistible force of omnipotence.
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Chaosism
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1/13/2016 4:35:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 4:04:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

I don't feel as though it would. Limiting one's power in this scope just means not using it immediately. By being in another reality, yet still viewing/knowing about the reality created, it doesn't do anything to prevent the omnipotent entity from re-engaging should it see fit. I don't feel omnipotence is defined as all power AND using it at all times.

Yes, that is the primary aspect of this issue that I am contemplating. So, let me address this from another angle: is it possible for such a system to operate in any way that is contrary to this omnipotent being's will?

Depends on the will of the entity. If the will was for it to simply sully on in existence, clearly. If there was a particular design for the creation or system... Hm. I want to say it could, but that would mean ultimately that the will of an omnipotent entity in its creation would be denied: a contradiction of sorts. One can't deny an omnipotent will. Interesting prongs!

There *must* be a particular design for any such created system. All of the components to the system only exist because they were deliberately created, because they couldn't come into existence on their own. To put this in perspective, say that such a being wants to create a ball to be some general shade of the color "red". In creating the ball, the creator *must* make existent the ball and a specific color (since a "general shade" isn't an actual thing), or else nothing would exist, hence, a lack of deliberate or willful action is impossible regarding anything that exists.

To formulate a hypothetical example for the sake of clarity, say we consider the established system that constitutes gravity. If a ball is rolling down a slope (as an operation of that system), is it at all possible that the ball could roll along a path that is contrary to an omnipotent being's will?

Yes, I see where you are coming from. This would juxtapose an omnipotent "will" and a free but limited will. How can the two be reconciled and still exist in the same reality?

Which I think answers our question. Essentially, what is proposed in this example is the immovable/immutable property of free will with the irresistible force of omnipotence.

Though applicable to free will, I think the consequences are broader, yet. But, back to the point, say that it's the creator's will that the ball roll up hill, contrary to the function of the established system. Is it possible that the system can prevent this? If not, the system would have to suspend "normal" operation to accommodate this conflict, right?
Chaosism
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1/13/2016 4:41:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 3:27:38 PM, Pandit wrote:
My personal Opinion :

Universe is the creation of an impersonal being .

Everything that exists , those existed and those which exist in future are a part of this impersonal being .
Gods are the Creation of Man , Man and Gods are Creations of that being .

Though this is straying a bit off-topic a bit, what, may I ask, has convinced you that:

(A) some being is responsible for the existence of the universe?
(B) this being is impersonal?
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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1/13/2016 5:49:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Who says it"s stand-alone? All things came into being by the Word of a All Powerful God.

You have the power, if given the means, to build a house, the house needed you to come into being as a house but it"s a house whether you are in it, or not. But to be your house it would require your presence therein. And if it be your house you could or would make changes according to your will, not to mention since you are the builder of the house the house would be built according to your will or your view of the need at the time you originally built it.
Chaosism
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1/13/2016 6:40:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 5:49:44 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.


Who says it"s stand-alone? All things came into being by the Word of a All Powerful God.

You have the power, if given the means, to build a house, the house needed you to come into being as a house but it"s a house whether you are in it, or not. But to be your house it would require your presence therein. And if it be your house you could or would make changes according to your will, not to mention since you are the builder of the house the house would be built according to your will or your view of the need at the time you originally built it.

That's basically what I am driving at: that if an omnipotent creator existed, then an automated system (independent of the creator) can't exist.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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1/13/2016 7:45:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 6:40:49 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 5:49:44 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.


Who says it"s stand-alone? All things came into being by the Word of a All Powerful God.

You have the power, if given the means, to build a house, the house needed you to come into being as a house but it"s a house whether you are in it, or not. But to be your house it would require your presence therein. And if it be your house you could or would make changes according to your will, not to mention since you are the builder of the house the house would be built according to your will or your view of the need at the time you originally built it.

That's basically what I am driving at: that if an omnipotent creator existed, then an automated system (independent of the creator) can't exist.

It doesn"t seem to be what you are driving at: darkness is without God"s Presence separated for God"s Presence though darkness is dependant on God"s will for it to be, and be what it is. Therefore the "system" like the house is dependant on the will of it"s maker to be, and be what it is, but that doesn"t mean the maker"s presence is required to be in what was made. In this case God dose choose where He wants to be, within His creation. As in the light is divided from the darkness.
Chaosism
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1/13/2016 8:30:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 7:45:09 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 1/13/2016 6:40:49 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 5:49:44 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.


Who says it"s stand-alone? All things came into being by the Word of a All Powerful God.

You have the power, if given the means, to build a house, the house needed you to come into being as a house but it"s a house whether you are in it, or not. But to be your house it would require your presence therein. And if it be your house you could or would make changes according to your will, not to mention since you are the builder of the house the house would be built according to your will or your view of the need at the time you originally built it.

That's basically what I am driving at: that if an omnipotent creator existed, then an automated system (independent of the creator) can't exist.

It doesn"t seem to be what you are driving at: darkness is without God"s Presence separated for God"s Presence though darkness is dependant on God"s will for it to be, and be what it is. Therefore the "system" like the house is dependant on the will of it"s maker to be, and be what it is, but that doesn"t mean the maker"s presence is required to be in what was made. In this case God dose choose where He wants to be, within His creation. As in the light is divided from the darkness.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. But, if the creator of the house removes himself from the presence of the house, thus outside its influence, then a limitation has been placed upon the creator, rendering it no longer omnipotent. The house analogy relates the concept, but if the roof begins to cave in, for instance, is it still within the omnipotent creator's power to prevent it?
PeacefulChaos
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1/14/2016 1:32:47 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory.

Humans can create watches, which from there can operate on their own. This is not a contradiction.

Could you explain more?
Pandit
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1/14/2016 5:34:26 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 4:41:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:27:38 PM, Pandit wrote:
My personal Opinion :

Universe is the creation of an impersonal being .

Everything that exists , those existed and those which exist in future are a part of this impersonal being .
Gods are the Creation of Man , Man and Gods are Creations of that being .

Though this is straying a bit off-topic a bit, what, may I ask, has convinced you that:

(A) some being is responsible for the existence of the universe?
(B) this being is impersonal?

1) This impersonal being is not finite like us . He is infinite , ageless , timeless , Feature less etc . This impersonal being has always existed . He is neither created nor destroyed but manifests itself into matter and Energy . In my faith , Energy denotes Goddess .

2) Gods with attributes and features are latter additions and are part of this impersonal reality .

3) It will get confusing . It is Confusing , Isn't it ?

I am still studying it , so I can't clear much of your doubts .

I hope this will help

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Cobalt
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1/14/2016 6:17:32 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Sorry if anyone else has already made the arguments I am about to -- I prefer to respond to OP before reviewing the ideas of others.

I had a whole response typed up before realizing your real question.

First, yes. An omnipotent, omniscient being can create a system that acts independently. Consider a world in which a man named Dave builds a computer. Dave understands precisely how this computer works and knows exactly what it's made of. He then writes a program to run, the details of which he understands perfectly.

He can run this program without interacting with it. Despite his ability to affect the system, it can still run independently of Dave's interaction. However, Dave is well aware of the end result of the program. Beyond this, one cannot deny that Dave had an exact level of control regarding how this program will execute.

One could take a slight departure from this analogy and suggest that Dave implemented special "random gates" that allow for truly random numbers to be generated. These could be used to alter the function of the program. However, Dave (being omniscient) is already well aware of what numbers these "random gates" will produce. While these numbers may be truly random, they are not outside of the purview of Dave's knowledge.

In short, yes -- Dave created a truly autonomous system. Dave may not have directly chose the way in which this system behaves, he certainly knew the result the system would produce and definitely had the capability of changing the system in any way he so wanted.

In the Biblical sense, Dave is obviously God and we are the system. God gave us free will, similar to the way that Dave gave the computer "random gates." Though God did not choose how we behave, he was well aware of what choice we would make before we existed. Knowledge of a future event A does not imply the will to control future event A, even if the option of control is available.
DanMGTOW
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1/14/2016 7:56:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 3:37:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?

you mean the same way that an omnipotent being would have to be in control of every human on earth? so do you believe that you are a puppet of this being as well?
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 1:41:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 1:32:47 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory.

Humans can create watches, which from there can operate on their own. This is not a contradiction.

Could you explain more?

If the creator is omnipotent, then separating the system from itself constitutes limiting its control over said system, thus applying a limitation and rendering the being no longer omnipotent. The contradiction lies in all-powerful and limitation.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).
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Chaosism
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1/14/2016 1:53:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 6:17:32 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Sorry if anyone else has already made the arguments I am about to -- I prefer to respond to OP before reviewing the ideas of others.

I had a whole response typed up before realizing your real question.

First, yes. An omnipotent, omniscient being can create a system that acts independently. Consider a world in which a man named Dave builds a computer. Dave understands precisely how this computer works and knows exactly what it's made of. He then writes a program to run, the details of which he understands perfectly.

He can run this program without interacting with it. Despite his ability to affect the system, it can still run independently of Dave's interaction. However, Dave is well aware of the end result of the program. Beyond this, one cannot deny that Dave had an exact level of control regarding how this program will execute.

One could take a slight departure from this analogy and suggest that Dave implemented special "random gates" that allow for truly random numbers to be generated. These could be used to alter the function of the program. However, Dave (being omniscient) is already well aware of what numbers these "random gates" will produce. While these numbers may be truly random, they are not outside of the purview of Dave's knowledge.

I don't believe "random" is a possibility to any omniscient being, because it implies a lack of knowledge. Further, how would such a being create something such as a "random gate" without knowing the absolute extent of its function and mechanisms? Every component of any system would have to have been deliberately brought into existence by such a creator being.

In short, yes -- Dave created a truly autonomous system. Dave may not have directly chose the way in which this system behaves, he certainly knew the result the system would produce and definitely had the capability of changing the system in any way he so wanted.

That's a decent analogy. Now, if Dave's computer had a malfunction (hardware or software), could Dave stop it from happening? If Dave was omnipotent, could he stop it, then?

In the Biblical sense, Dave is obviously God and we are the system. God gave us free will, similar to the way that Dave gave the computer "random gates." Though God did not choose how we behave, he was well aware of what choice we would make before we existed. Knowledge of a future event A does not imply the will to control future event A, even if the option of control is available.
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 1:57:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 7:56:23 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:37:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/13/2016 3:20:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

I am assuming such omnipotence created the reality, and as such, can excuse itself from the reality it created with this system. I am also assuming with omnipotence, it thus grants itself omniscience, and can then monitor said system from another reality without being present, having full knowledge of what is happening in the system through its newly granted power. It would definitely be under scrutiny, but with the vested power of omnipotence, and being in a separate reality, it is not under direct control.

In order to withdraw control, though, the omnipotent being must limit its power, as you described. Wouldn't this imposed limitation render the being no longer omnipotent?

you mean the same way that an omnipotent being would have to be in control of every human on earth? so do you believe that you are a puppet of this being as well?

If I believed that such a being existed, then essentially, yes. I find the general notion of free will fanciful, though.
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 2:18:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).

I'm not trying to say that it has to be constantly manipulated, and in your example, a malfunction is beyond the control of the operator(s). This may better explain the direction I am seeing this from is:

(A) If the omnipotent creator of a system can separate the system from its control, then the creator has limited itself and is no longer omnipotent.

(B) If a system is always under the [potential] control of its omnipotent creator, then the system is absolutely redundant, because the creator will is absolute. The system's function is suspended or superseded to account for the creators will, and it only functions as design so long as it aligns exactly with the creator's will.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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1/14/2016 2:27:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 2:18:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).

I'm not trying to say that it has to be constantly manipulated, and in your example, a malfunction is beyond the control of the operator(s). This may better explain the direction I am seeing this from is:

(A) If the omnipotent creator of a system can separate the system from its control, then the creator has limited itself and is no longer omnipotent.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent, it can reconnect itself to the system at any time and begin manipulating it. It has not limited its power if it can reconnect with the created system.

(B) If a system is always under the [potential] control of its omnipotent creator, then the system is absolutely redundant, because the creator will is absolute. The system's function is suspended or superseded to account for the creators will, and it only functions as design so long as it aligns exactly with the creator's will.

That is not a bad thing. And you assume that a creator is always in control of a system. A truly omnipotent creator would be able to separate and rejoin itself to the system at any given time. Of course, if a creator does make a system, then why would it's will not be done? If you created a machine to do something, but you could separate yourself from it and have it still function, would you not want it to do your will, to accomplish the task you want it to, even in your absence? As with the machine you create, the system's existence is not suspended or superseded as it was intended to serve the creator anyway.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 3:14:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 2:27:14 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/14/2016 2:18:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).

I'm not trying to say that it has to be constantly manipulated, and in your example, a malfunction is beyond the control of the operator(s). This may better explain the direction I am seeing this from is:

(A) If the omnipotent creator of a system can separate the system from its control, then the creator has limited itself and is no longer omnipotent.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent, it can reconnect itself to the system at any time and begin manipulating it. It has not limited its power if it can reconnect with the created system.

(B) If a system is always under the [potential] control of its omnipotent creator, then the system is absolutely redundant, because the creator will is absolute. The system's function is suspended or superseded to account for the creators will, and it only functions as design so long as it aligns exactly with the creator's will.

That is not a bad thing. And you assume that a creator is always in control of a system. A truly omnipotent creator would be able to separate and rejoin itself to the system at any given time. Of course, if a creator does make a system, then why would it's will not be done? If you created a machine to do something, but you could separate yourself from it and have it still function, would you not want it to do your will, to accomplish the task you want it to, even in your absence? As with the machine you create, the system's existence is not suspended or superseded as it was intended to serve the creator anyway.

I'm not actually trying to portray this as a bad thing. Here's a question I have:

Can a system that is created by an omnipotent creator ever function contrary to its creator's will?
The-Voice-of-Truth
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1/14/2016 3:27:12 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 3:14:34 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 2:27:14 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/14/2016 2:18:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).

I'm not trying to say that it has to be constantly manipulated, and in your example, a malfunction is beyond the control of the operator(s). This may better explain the direction I am seeing this from is:

(A) If the omnipotent creator of a system can separate the system from its control, then the creator has limited itself and is no longer omnipotent.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent, it can reconnect itself to the system at any time and begin manipulating it. It has not limited its power if it can reconnect with the created system.

(B) If a system is always under the [potential] control of its omnipotent creator, then the system is absolutely redundant, because the creator will is absolute. The system's function is suspended or superseded to account for the creators will, and it only functions as design so long as it aligns exactly with the creator's will.

That is not a bad thing. And you assume that a creator is always in control of a system. A truly omnipotent creator would be able to separate and rejoin itself to the system at any given time. Of course, if a creator does make a system, then why would it's will not be done? If you created a machine to do something, but you could separate yourself from it and have it still function, would you not want it to do your will, to accomplish the task you want it to, even in your absence? As with the machine you create, the system's existence is not suspended or superseded as it was intended to serve the creator anyway.

I'm not actually trying to portray this as a bad thing. Here's a question I have:

Can a system that is created by an omnipotent creator ever function contrary to its creator's will?

Yes. Absolutely. Like a machine you would build, it will eventually malfunction.

Let me do this from a Christian standpoint. God created this universe; this system and every aspect of it. Yet, there is something against his will: sin. Sin is against God and His nature, yet it happens because he gave humanity free will. Of course, being omnipotent, He finds ways to use this sin to meat the ultimate end of His will anyway.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
PeacefulChaos
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1/14/2016 4:13:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 1:41:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:

If the creator is omnipotent, then separating the system from itself constitutes limiting its control over said system, thus applying a limitation and rendering the being no longer omnipotent. The contradiction lies in all-powerful and limitation.

What do you mean by "separating"? Physical separation? As in, the entity does not exist in the system? Or separation as in the entity does not have any control over the system? Or both?

An absolute entity should not suffer limitations, I agree.
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 4:22:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 3:27:12 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/14/2016 3:14:34 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 2:27:14 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/14/2016 2:18:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:49:18 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 1/13/2016 2:44:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Can an omnipotent (all-powerful) being really create a stand-alone or automatic operative system? To elaborate, if a system (biological, chemical, or whatever) is to operate on its own, or automatically, that would imply an isolation or separation from the control of the creator. But, if a being is omnipotent, then this seems contradictory. This would imply that every single component belonging to an apparent system is still under the absolute control and direction of this being, thus creating the mere illusion of a operating system through consistency of will.

This is speculative, and I'd he happy to hear other thoughts on this. Thanks.

Regardless of whether or not this system is automatic, an omnipotent creator can still control any aspect of this system. It, being omnipotent, could chose when to interact with and manipulate this system. If a creator does not have to be manipulating it's created system constantly; that goes against the notion of true omnipotence. If a creating being is omnipotent, then it could chose when to interact with the created system.

This is something similar to a human and a nuclear reactor. The reactor is created by human, but once it is created and its actions set in motion, it continues to function automatically either until the fuel source is depleted or a human interferes and manipulates the system (i.e shut down or the redirecting of core coolant).

I'm not trying to say that it has to be constantly manipulated, and in your example, a malfunction is beyond the control of the operator(s). This may better explain the direction I am seeing this from is:

(A) If the omnipotent creator of a system can separate the system from its control, then the creator has limited itself and is no longer omnipotent.

Not necessarily. Being omnipotent, it can reconnect itself to the system at any time and begin manipulating it. It has not limited its power if it can reconnect with the created system.

(B) If a system is always under the [potential] control of its omnipotent creator, then the system is absolutely redundant, because the creator will is absolute. The system's function is suspended or superseded to account for the creators will, and it only functions as design so long as it aligns exactly with the creator's will.

That is not a bad thing. And you assume that a creator is always in control of a system. A truly omnipotent creator would be able to separate and rejoin itself to the system at any given time. Of course, if a creator does make a system, then why would it's will not be done? If you created a machine to do something, but you could separate yourself from it and have it still function, would you not want it to do your will, to accomplish the task you want it to, even in your absence? As with the machine you create, the system's existence is not suspended or superseded as it was intended to serve the creator anyway.

I'm not actually trying to portray this as a bad thing. Here's a question I have:

Can a system that is created by an omnipotent creator ever function contrary to its creator's will?

Yes. Absolutely. Like a machine you would build, it will eventually malfunction.

Let me do this from a Christian standpoint. God created this universe; this system and every aspect of it. Yet, there is something against his will: sin. Sin is against God and His nature, yet it happens because he gave humanity free will. Of course, being omnipotent, He finds ways to use this sin to meat the ultimate end of His will anyway.

OK, so all of the components are systems were created by God, including the neurological systems in us that are responsible for how we make decisions (i.e. our brain). So, for an individual who's decisions lead to "sin", then that is a result of the established system. If this system has violated God's will, then I believe one of the following must be true:

1. The creator was unable to prevent the malfunction.
2. The creator was unwilling to prevent the malfunction.
3. The creator did not know that the system would or did malfunction.

God running creation isn't terribly comparable to a man running a machine; God is not limited as a man is (physical power, location, perception, etc.), and it takes no effort or resources to for an omnipotent being to maintain the entirety of the machine indefinitely or to prevent a malfunction from occurring.

Thank you for your participation in this thread, btw.
Chaosism
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1/14/2016 4:24:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 4:13:20 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:41:52 PM, Chaosism wrote:

If the creator is omnipotent, then separating the system from itself constitutes limiting its control over said system, thus applying a limitation and rendering the being no longer omnipotent. The contradiction lies in all-powerful and limitation.

What do you mean by "separating"? Physical separation? As in, the entity does not exist in the system? Or separation as in the entity does not have any control over the system? Or both?

An absolute entity should not suffer limitations, I agree.

Just control. Mere physical separation would not limit an omnipotent being's ability to control any subject.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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1/14/2016 4:30:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 4:22:53 PM, Chaosism wrote:
OK, so all of the components are systems were created by God, including the neurological systems in us that are responsible for how we make decisions (i.e. our brain). So, for an individual who's decisions lead to "sin", then that is a result of the established system. If this system has violated God's will, then I believe one of the following must be true:

1. The creator was unable to prevent the malfunction.

That is just it. He was able, but he refused to impede upon the free will He gave us.

2. The creator was unwilling to prevent the malfunction.

Basically. He allowed for free will. Of course, according to Christianity, God is actively combating sin and will soon destroy it.

3. The creator did not know that the system would or did malfunction.

He knew.

God running creation isn't terribly comparable to a man running a machine; God is not limited as a man is (physical power, location, perception, etc.), and it takes no effort or resources to for an omnipotent being to maintain the entirety of the machine indefinitely or to prevent a malfunction from occurring.

True, but that would infringe on the free will He has given us.

Thank you for your participation in this thread, btw.

Anytime. I have enjoyed this discussion very much.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
PeacefulChaos
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1/14/2016 5:00:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/14/2016 4:24:47 PM, Chaosism wrote:

Just control. Mere physical separation would not limit an omnipotent being's ability to control any subject.

Okay, why would this entity lose control over the system? How would this separation happen?

Suppose the entity retains full control of the system, but can choose to let the system run on its own (which runs due to this entity). It still possesses the power to change whatever it wishes, but does not.