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Virgin Birth Challenge.

Mhykiel
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1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
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1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.

Birth:
an act or instance of being born:
the day of his birth.
2.
the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition:

There is nothing that makes those terms contradictory in definition. The miraculous part of it is in the process associated with producing a birth doesn't leave virginity intact.

That is not a contradiction of terms. A contradiction in terms would be "square circle" where the contradiction is in the very definition of both "Square" and "Circle" being diametrically opposed.
DanneJeRusse
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1/17/2016 7:58:27 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

And, you should try thinking before you write something. If a woman never had sexual intercourse, how can she give birth outside of artificial insemination?
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.

Birth:
an act or instance of being born:
the day of his birth.
2.
the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition:

There is nothing that makes those terms contradictory in definition. The miraculous part of it is in the process associated with producing a birth doesn't leave virginity intact.

That is not a contradiction of terms. A contradiction in terms would be "square circle" where the contradiction is in the very definition of both "Square" and "Circle" being diametrically opposed.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/17/2016 8:06:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:58:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

And, you should try thinking before you write something. If a woman never had sexual intercourse, how can she give birth outside of artificial insemination?
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.

Birth:
an act or instance of being born:
the day of his birth.
2.
the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition:

There is nothing that makes those terms contradictory in definition. The miraculous part of it is in the process associated with producing a birth doesn't leave virginity intact.

That is not a contradiction of terms. A contradiction in terms would be "square circle" where the contradiction is in the very definition of both "Square" and "Circle" being diametrically opposed.

A square-circle is a contradiction in terms and subsequently it logically follows that a "square-circle" is impossible.

But "Virgin Birth" is not a contradiction in terms and so at least prima facia not impossible by logic alone.

You seem to acknowledge your initial mistake when you add "outside of artificial insemination". You yourself have stated an accepted case of "Virgin Birth" happening.

So your reply that the term is contradictory is false. The implication that because the phrase "Virgin Birth" is contradictory terms is therefore impossible is also false.

So would you like to attempt to intellectually reply to this post again.

How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can you provide a mythological story, prior to Christian influence, that describes a "Virgin Birth"?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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1/17/2016 8:26:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 8:06:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:58:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

And, you should try thinking before you write something. If a woman never had sexual intercourse, how can she give birth outside of artificial insemination?
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.

Birth:
an act or instance of being born:
the day of his birth.
2.
the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition:

There is nothing that makes those terms contradictory in definition. The miraculous part of it is in the process associated with producing a birth doesn't leave virginity intact.

That is not a contradiction of terms. A contradiction in terms would be "square circle" where the contradiction is in the very definition of both "Square" and "Circle" being diametrically opposed.

A square-circle is a contradiction in terms and subsequently it logically follows that a "square-circle" is impossible.

But "Virgin Birth" is not a contradiction in terms and so at least prima facia not impossible by logic alone.

You seem to acknowledge your initial mistake when you add "outside of artificial insemination". You yourself have stated an accepted case of "Virgin Birth" happening.

I've done no such thing. Loss of virginity is medically tested whether or not a woman has had sexual intercourse or artificial insemination, by the hymen. Artificial insemination most certainly would result in a loss of virginity.

So your reply that the term is contradictory is false. The implication that because the phrase "Virgin Birth" is contradictory terms is therefore impossible is also false.

So would you like to attempt to intellectually reply to this post again.

How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms.

Can you provide a mythological story, prior to Christian influence, that describes a "Virgin Birth"?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/17/2016 8:36:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 8:26:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 8:06:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:58:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

And, you should try thinking before you write something. If a woman never had sexual intercourse, how can she give birth outside of artificial insemination?
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.

Birth:
an act or instance of being born:
the day of his birth.
2.
the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition:

There is nothing that makes those terms contradictory in definition. The miraculous part of it is in the process associated with producing a birth doesn't leave virginity intact.

That is not a contradiction of terms. A contradiction in terms would be "square circle" where the contradiction is in the very definition of both "Square" and "Circle" being diametrically opposed.

A square-circle is a contradiction in terms and subsequently it logically follows that a "square-circle" is impossible.

But "Virgin Birth" is not a contradiction in terms and so at least prima facia not impossible by logic alone.

You seem to acknowledge your initial mistake when you add "outside of artificial insemination". You yourself have stated an accepted case of "Virgin Birth" happening.

I've done no such thing. Loss of virginity is medically tested whether or not a woman has had sexual intercourse or artificial insemination, by the hymen. Artificial insemination most certainly would result in a loss of virginity.

You are equating a breaking of hymen with a loss of virginity. But virginity is lacking sexual intercourse with a man. And the breaking of a Hymen by instrument or injury would not be sexual intercourse with a man.


So your reply that the term is contradictory is false. The implication that because the phrase "Virgin Birth" is contradictory terms is therefore impossible is also false.

So would you like to attempt to intellectually reply to this post again.

How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms.

Can you provide a mythological story, prior to Christian influence, that describes a "Virgin Birth"?

Shame. I am giving the whole Krishna, Dionysus, Mithra, are also virgin birth argument a fair exploration. I even invite the proponents of that argument to define "Virgin Birth".

But I should have reminded myself that Atheist do not support the noise they make. Probably because there is little intellectual support for emotional outbursts.

Danne Thanks for trying to derail this thread, but perhaps some one else will like to present a real case of a virgin birth motif predating Jesus.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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1/17/2016 8:39:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

It's defined as a virgin giving birth.

And no, I am not aware of any virgin birth myths that predate Christian influence. What's your point?
Gentorev
Posts: 2,907
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1/17/2016 9:46:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.


How many unmarried girls over the age of 18, do you believe are still virgins?

How many unmarried women have children, were they all the products of virgin births?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/17/2016 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 9:46:09 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.


How many unmarried girls over the age of 18, do you believe are still virgins?

How many unmarried women have children, were they all the products of virgin births?

The point of the definitions was in response to DanneJeRusse. He replied that the phrase "Virgin Birth" were contradictory terms. He didn't support this assertion with providing how he would define the terms. So used the Dictionary usage to illustrate that the properties that define Virgin and the properties that define "Birth" are not contradictory.

Agreeing on the terms is why I first ask how do you define "Virgin Birth". Obviously unmarried youth is common definition. But I assume the discerning property of a virgin birth is that the maiden in question has not had sex with a man.

By that definition, artificial insemination of a woman who had no sex with a man would be a virgin birth. but my post is about mythologies.

There is a slew of Atheist on this forum who imply that the "Virgin Birth" of Jesus is a rehashing of some earlier tale of some other deity. they claim Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, ect.. were all virgin births. That Jesus was not unique in his origin tale.

I disagree with this. And I invite those same Atheist to demonstrate such a similarity. And if they can not support that the Virgin Birth is a recurring motif in mythology, perhaps that should elect to cease using such a false comparison between Jesus birth and others.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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1/18/2016 2:55:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 10:09:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 9:46:09 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:37:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:15:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

A contradiction of terms?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Try reading a dictionary when you want to talk about terms.

Virgin:
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
2.
an unmarried girl or woman.


How many unmarried girls over the age of 18, do you believe are still virgins?

How many unmarried women have children, were they all the products of virgin births?

The point of the definitions was in response to DanneJeRusse. He replied that the phrase "Virgin Birth" were contradictory terms. He didn't support this assertion with providing how he would define the terms. So used the Dictionary usage to illustrate that the properties that define Virgin and the properties that define "Birth" are not contradictory.

Agreeing on the terms is why I first ask how do you define "Virgin Birth". Obviously unmarried youth is common definition. But I assume the discerning property of a virgin birth is that the maiden in question has not had sex with a man.

By that definition, artificial insemination of a woman who had no sex with a man would be a virgin birth. but my post is about mythologies.

There is a slew of Atheist on this forum who imply that the "Virgin Birth" of Jesus is a rehashing of some earlier tale of some other deity. they claim Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, ect.. were all virgin births. That Jesus was not unique in his origin tale.

I disagree with this. And I invite those same Atheist to demonstrate such a similarity. And if they can not support that the Virgin Birth is a recurring motif in mythology, perhaps that should elect to cease using such a false comparison between Jesus birth and others.

There is a good book written in the early 90's by Ronald Nash titled "The Gospel and the Greeks". He blows the entire "Christain borrowed from pagan myth" argument out of the water.

The reality is, that entire idea was put to sleep about 50 years ago. It is only now been reawaken in the past 10 years due to the Internet. Most people are unaware of the proponent's translation of Greek mythology in Christian terms to creat parallels and their lack of original sources to back the theory in the first place.

If you haven't already read it, it would be a good buy for the subject. There really is nothing new in this area coming from the other side, just regurgitation...
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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1/18/2016 4:30:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

The doctrine of "Christianity", the Virgin Birth, never existed. God never came down from HIS throne to bang Mary and the angel Gabriel never banged Mary in the back room. "Christians" are dumb as hell. Christians also don't know the laws of marriage the Israelites were given. The Bible defines "virgin" as an unmarried girl of marriageable age or an unmarried girl.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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1/18/2016 5:50:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

"An anthropomorphic being producing offspring without sexual intercourse."

I saw your definition using "person", but since we're talking myths I felt that was a little limiting. ;-)

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

Ra was birthed by Neith/Mehet-Weret.

Mehet-Weret is described as being the mother of Ra, the ancient Egyptian solar deity. As the Goddess of Creation, she gives birth to the sun every day and is the reason the world isn"t in the dark. In her physical description, she is described as having a sun disk between her horns; in typical motherly fashion, she protects her son Ra and keeps him close to her.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Before Christianity:

By the Fifth Dynasty in the 25th and 24th centuries bc, he (Ra) had become a major god in ancient Egyptian religion, identified primarily with the noon sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/18/2016 6:21:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

http://dictionary.reference.com...

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

http://www.hope-of-israel.org...
Scroll down to " The Egyptian Myths"
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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1/18/2016 8:42:25 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

To answer your question and not get into whether "Virgin Birth" is an oxymoron, there are a few "virgin births" that predate Christianity.

The virgin queen of Egypt, Mut-em-ua, was impregnated by Kneph (through non physical means). Hathor is another Eqyptian depicted as birthing a baby despite being a virgin.

Also in Egyptian mythology was the belief of the virgin birth in cows. While a human may not be born, the "virgin birth" ideology was certainly present.

In Phrygian mythology, Nana gave virgin birth to Attis. In greek mythology there are conflicting tales regarding the birth of Dionysus, but two in particular involve virgin mothers. (Persephone and Semele.)

There are quite a few other mythological examples of a person being born to a virgin mother (sometimes mystically impregnated by a god, sometimes impregnated by other mystical means.) The theme is in no way unique to Christianity, though the specifics are (of course) unique.
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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1/18/2016 8:45:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Also, a cursory Google search brought me to this site, which lists many, many examples from multiple mythologies.

You can limit the scope of what you consider to be a "virgin birth" enough to create a unique distinction between Christianity and other religions, if you'd like. But that would be self serving, as there is no doubt the theme of immaculate birth predates Christianity.

http://www.hope-of-israel.org...
Gentorev
Posts: 2,907
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1/18/2016 9:36:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 4:30:47 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

The doctrine of "Christianity", the Virgin Birth, never existed. God never came down from HIS throne to bang Mary and the angel Gabriel never banged Mary in the back room. "Christians" are dumb as hell. Christians also don't know the laws of marriage the Israelites were given. The Bible defines "virgin" as an unmarried girl of marriageable age or an unmarried girl.

What utter rubbish! The bible does not define the word 'VIRGIN' as an unmarried woman. Do you honestly believe that an unmarried woman with children that she had birth, would still have been referred to as a virgin, in any culture?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/18/2016 12:41:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 8:42:25 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

To answer your question and not get into whether "Virgin Birth" is an oxymoron, there are a few "virgin births" that predate Christianity.

The virgin queen of Egypt, Mut-em-ua, was impregnated by Kneph (through non physical means). Hathor is another Eqyptian depicted as birthing a baby despite being a virgin.

Also in Egyptian mythology was the belief of the virgin birth in cows. While a human may not be born, the "virgin birth" ideology was certainly present.

In Phrygian mythology, Nana gave virgin birth to Attis. In greek mythology there are conflicting tales regarding the birth of Dionysus, but two in particular involve virgin mothers. (Persephone and Semele.)

There are quite a few other mythological examples of a person being born to a virgin mother (sometimes mystically impregnated by a god, sometimes impregnated by other mystical means.) The theme is in no way unique to Christianity, though the specifics are (of course) unique.

... beat me to it.

Short answer, yes, there are quite a few virgin birth containing mythos, and some from even stranger sources.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Gentorev
Posts: 2,907
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1/18/2016 1:48:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 12:41:06 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/18/2016 8:42:25 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

To answer your question and not get into whether "Virgin Birth" is an oxymoron, there are a few "virgin births" that predate Christianity.

The virgin queen of Egypt, Mut-em-ua, was impregnated by Kneph (through non physical means). Hathor is another Eqyptian depicted as birthing a baby despite being a virgin.

Also in Egyptian mythology was the belief of the virgin birth in cows. While a human may not be born, the "virgin birth" ideology was certainly present.

In Phrygian mythology, Nana gave virgin birth to Attis. In greek mythology there are conflicting tales regarding the birth of Dionysus, but two in particular involve virgin mothers. (Persephone and Semele.)

There are quite a few other mythological examples of a person being born to a virgin mother (sometimes mystically impregnated by a god, sometimes impregnated by other mystical means.) The theme is in no way unique to Christianity, though the specifics are (of course) unique.

... beat me to it.

Short answer, yes, there are quite a few virgin birth containing mythos, and some from even stranger sources.

When studied properly and editing out the erroneous translations and interpretations, we find that the bible makes no mention of a virgin birth.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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1/18/2016 2:45:50 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 1:48:46 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/18/2016 12:41:06 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/18/2016 8:42:25 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

To answer your question and not get into whether "Virgin Birth" is an oxymoron, there are a few "virgin births" that predate Christianity.

The virgin queen of Egypt, Mut-em-ua, was impregnated by Kneph (through non physical means). Hathor is another Eqyptian depicted as birthing a baby despite being a virgin.

Also in Egyptian mythology was the belief of the virgin birth in cows. While a human may not be born, the "virgin birth" ideology was certainly present.

In Phrygian mythology, Nana gave virgin birth to Attis. In greek mythology there are conflicting tales regarding the birth of Dionysus, but two in particular involve virgin mothers. (Persephone and Semele.)

There are quite a few other mythological examples of a person being born to a virgin mother (sometimes mystically impregnated by a god, sometimes impregnated by other mystical means.) The theme is in no way unique to Christianity, though the specifics are (of course) unique.

... beat me to it.

Short answer, yes, there are quite a few virgin birth containing mythos, and some from even stranger sources.

When studied properly and editing out the erroneous translations and interpretations, we find that the bible makes no mention of a virgin birth.

What part do you not get?

Matthew 1:18 New Living Translation
This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.

While she was still a virgin she became pregnant not through intercourse with Joseph or another man but through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is virgin birth or emmaculate conception as taught to Christians.
ethang5
Posts: 4,093
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1/18/2016 3:00:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
We know that the Bible's version of "virgin birth" is that an unfertilized egg begins to grow into a viable human. So the bible considers Mary a "true" virgin birth, that is, the focus is not so much on sex, as sex can exist without a birth, but on fertilization.

Incidentally, this sometimes happens in nature spontaneously. (with amphibians and lower, called Parthenogenesis) but in humans, the egg, not having a Y chromosome from the male, even if it could begin to grow, would have only X chromosomes and could only be female. Jesus was male.

The miracle of Mary's virgin birth was not so much that she did not have sex with a man, but that no fertilization or insemination took place.

In that way, the virgin birth story in the Bible is truly unique.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,907
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1/18/2016 3:28:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 2:45:50 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/18/2016 1:48:46 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/18/2016 12:41:06 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/18/2016 8:42:25 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

To answer your question and not get into whether "Virgin Birth" is an oxymoron, there are a few "virgin births" that predate Christianity.

The virgin queen of Egypt, Mut-em-ua, was impregnated by Kneph (through non physical means). Hathor is another Eqyptian depicted as birthing a baby despite being a virgin.

Also in Egyptian mythology was the belief of the virgin birth in cows. While a human may not be born, the "virgin birth" ideology was certainly present.

In Phrygian mythology, Nana gave virgin birth to Attis. In greek mythology there are conflicting tales regarding the birth of Dionysus, but two in particular involve virgin mothers. (Persephone and Semele.)

There are quite a few other mythological examples of a person being born to a virgin mother (sometimes mystically impregnated by a god, sometimes impregnated by other mystical means.) The theme is in no way unique to Christianity, though the specifics are (of course) unique.

... beat me to it.

Short answer, yes, there are quite a few virgin birth containing mythos, and some from even stranger sources.

When studied properly and editing out the erroneous translations and interpretations, we find that the bible makes no mention of a virgin birth.

What part do you not get?

Matthew 1:18 New Living Translation
This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.

While she was still a virgin she became pregnant not through intercourse with Joseph or another man but through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is virgin birth or emmaculate conception as taught to Christians.

Amplified version Galatians 4: 29; Yet at that time, the child (Ishmael) who was born according to the flesh, despised and persecuted He (Isaac) who was born according to the promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Isaac who was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, was the biological son of Abraham and his half sister Sarah, as was Jesus who was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli.

Mary was indeed engaged to Joseph the son of Jacob, when she was found to be pregnant to her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, the one chosen by the Holy Spirit with the required genetics to sire the man who would be filled with all the spirits of the righteous dead who had been gathered to the evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham.

The spirits of all the righteous Israelites who had paid the blood price for any mistakes that they had made, and who were judges and entered into rest within the bosom of Abraham, over they, who were the man Jesus, death had no more power.

John 14: 30; "I cannot talk to you much longer, because (Death) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me. But the world must know that I love the Father; that is why I do everything as he commands me."
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/18/2016 3:43:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 3:00:30 PM, ethang5 wrote:
We know that the Bible's version of "virgin birth" is that an unfertilized egg begins to grow into a viable human. So the bible considers Mary a "true" virgin birth, that is, the focus is not so much on sex, as sex can exist without a birth, but on fertilization.

Incidentally, this sometimes happens in nature spontaneously. (with amphibians and lower, called Parthenogenesis) but in humans, the egg, not having a Y chromosome from the male, even if it could begin to grow, would have only X chromosomes and could only be female. Jesus was male.

The miracle of Mary's virgin birth was not so much that she did not have sex with a man, but that no fertilization or insemination took place.

.... yeah, and typically, a woman that hasn't attempted insemination or fertilization is known as a "virgin", so... I am not certain how you can down play one and play up the other.

In that way, the virgin birth story in the Bible is truly unique.

"In that way", the birth of Venus and Athena were truly unique, too, as they didn't focus so much on sex, or eggs, or fertilization at all.

But, that is the uniqueness of a mythos.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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1/18/2016 4:07:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

There is a reptilian species of snake which is able to have a Virgin birth. The4 process is called parthenogenesis, And is also found in other species.

http://www.livescience.com...
ethang5
Posts: 4,093
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1/18/2016 5:18:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 3:43:06 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/18/2016 3:00:30 PM, ethang5 wrote:
We know that the Bible's version of "virgin birth" is that an unfertilized egg begins to grow into a viable human. So the bible considers Mary a "true" virgin birth, that is, the focus is not so much on sex, as sex can exist without a birth, but on fertilization.

Incidentally, this sometimes happens in nature spontaneously. (with amphibians and lower, called Parthenogenesis) but in humans, the egg, not having a Y chromosome from the male, even if it could begin to grow, would have only X chromosomes and could only be female. Jesus was male.

The miracle of Mary's virgin birth was not so much that she did not have sex with a man, but that no fertilization or insemination took place.

.... yeah, and typically, a woman that hasn't attempted insemination or fertilization is known as a "virgin",

Yes, but that is from the Human POV of ignorance. We do not really know if the woman is a virgin or not, so we go with the odds. The Bible knew the actual state of affairs.

... so... I am not certain how you can down play one and play up the other.

I'm not trying to play down anything. One of the questions was, what is the definition of virgin birth? I give the definition the Bible seems to use because we are discussing the Bible's version right now.

In that way, the virgin birth story in the Bible is truly unique.

"In that way", the birth of Venus and Athena were truly unique, too, as they didn't focus so much on sex, or eggs, or fertilization at all.

I agree. But some of the ways a thing can be unique are more impressive than others.

But, that is the uniqueness of a mythos.

No. The uniqueness comes from the story itself when viewed today in light of the culture and understanding back then.

Gabriel told Mary that she would "conceive" a child. Conception requires fertilazation, fertilization requires a male sperm cell, a male sperm cell requires a man. But Gabriel also told here she would conceive without a man.

In the other virgin birth stories, the miracle was only in the novel way the sperm cell was conveyed to the woman's egg. In Mary's case, there would be no sperm cell at all. Her egg would not be fertilized in any way, mysterious or not. Jesus would come from a new genetic line. This is why He is referred to as the "new" Adam.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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1/18/2016 5:24:11 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 4:07:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

There is a reptilian species of snake which is able to have a Virgin birth. The4 process is called parthenogenesis, And is also found in other species.




http://www.livescience.com...

So which was jebus, a reptile or a snake?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/18/2016 5:36:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 5:18:59 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/18/2016 3:43:06 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/18/2016 3:00:30 PM, ethang5 wrote:
We know that the Bible's version of "virgin birth" is that an unfertilized egg begins to grow into a viable human. So the bible considers Mary a "true" virgin birth, that is, the focus is not so much on sex, as sex can exist without a birth, but on fertilization.

Incidentally, this sometimes happens in nature spontaneously. (with amphibians and lower, called Parthenogenesis) but in humans, the egg, not having a Y chromosome from the male, even if it could begin to grow, would have only X chromosomes and could only be female. Jesus was male.

The miracle of Mary's virgin birth was not so much that she did not have sex with a man, but that no fertilization or insemination took place.

.... yeah, and typically, a woman that hasn't attempted insemination or fertilization is known as a "virgin",

Yes, but that is from the Human POV of ignorance. We do not really know if the woman is a virgin or not, so we go with the odds. The Bible knew the actual state of affairs.

... and its the Bible that declares her a virgin. Unless you are stating some one was playing the odds when writing the Bible.

... so... I am not certain how you can down play one and play up the other.

I'm not trying to play down anything. One of the questions was, what is the definition of virgin birth? I give the definition the Bible seems to use because we are discussing the Bible's version right now.

And the Bible also claims that a virgin would conceive, and that a virgin would give birth, and that Mary was a virgin, etc. "Virgin Birth" is just one small portion of the whole.

In that way, the virgin birth story in the Bible is truly unique.

"In that way", the birth of Venus and Athena were truly unique, too, as they didn't focus so much on sex, or eggs, or fertilization at all.

I agree. But some of the ways a thing can be unique are more impressive than others.

But, that is the uniqueness of a mythos.

No. The uniqueness comes from the story itself when viewed today in light of the culture and understanding back then.

Gabriel told Mary that she would "conceive" a child. Conception requires fertilazation, fertilization requires a male sperm cell, a male sperm cell requires a man. But Gabriel also told here she would conceive without a man. In the other virgin birth stories, the miracle was only in the novel way the sperm cell was conveyed to the woman's egg. In Mary's case, there would be no sperm cell at all. Her egg would not be fertilized in any way, mysterious or not. Jesus would come from a new genetic line. This is why He is referred to as the "new" Adam.

... how was that different than the birth of Aphrodite, exactly?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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1/18/2016 5:46:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 9:36:45 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/18/2016 4:30:47 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
At 1/17/2016 7:03:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
How is a "Virgin Birth" Defined?

Can any Atheist relate a "Virgin Birth" myth that predates Christian influence?

The doctrine of "Christianity", the Virgin Birth, never existed. God never came down from HIS throne to bang Mary and the angel Gabriel never banged Mary in the back room. "Christians" are dumb as hell. Christians also don't know the laws of marriage the Israelites were given. The Bible defines "virgin" as an unmarried girl of marriageable age or an unmarried girl.

What utter rubbish! The bible does not define the word 'VIRGIN' as an unmarried woman. Do you honestly believe that an unmarried woman with children that she had birth, would still have been referred to as a virgin, in any culture?

And that shows that you do not even know the Bible. Do you know what the word "espoused" means? Do you know what the word "genealogy" means? I don't think you do, you moron.

Also, can you show me the Scripture that says Joseph is the step-father of Jesus? Because you still haven't shown proof of the blasphemous gibberish you are posting.