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confused by jw's and michael......

graceofgod
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1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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1/19/2016 6:25:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!
These questions do not make any sense. Are you familiar with the Biblical teaching at all? Throughout the Bible there are people who have their names changed:
Peter = Simon
Jacob = Israel
Abram = Abraham
Michael = Jesus

Jesus is Michael, so the names are synonymous.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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1/19/2016 6:53:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!

Its only you who is confused, because you have fallen prey to Satan's counterfeit beliefs.

It is really simple.

Michael was created by his father as Spirit being.

His father then created everything else through him, making him the Archangel.

That means he is greater than the angels but less than his father, as is only right by the standards of Jehovah's own law.

Why?

Because he was the only one created solely by Jehovah.

After Adam's sin, humanity was not holy enough for Jehovah to deal with directly and therefore Michael became Jehovah's spokesman, or The Word. In that position he was intermediary between God and men, but not at that point our mediator.

When the time was right Michael, the Archangel, the Word, came to earth to become incarnate in the body of Jesus (John 1:14).

This was in order that he could perform the sacrifice necessary, in that specially created body, to pay the price for what Adam had lost, perfect human life in exchange for perfect human life.

The body of Jesus was duly sacrificed, and Michael returned to his previous glory, but this time as the Christ, being resurrected in spirit.

As that resurrected spirit he visited the spirits in prison, and then materialised a human body to visit his disciples.

After this he returned to his father's side to await his enemies in heaven being put beneath his feet, so that he could take up his throne and prepare his Kingdom to rule the earth after it too had been cleansed of all opposition. However despite the Kingdom not being fully operations he has always had at least one or two faithful followers, subjects of his Kingdom.

Satan was cast down to the earth, the Gentile Times (Times of the Nations) ended (1914) and Christ was able to start to prepare his Kingdom.

After the earth has been cleansed of all opposition, Satan will be put out of commission temporarily and the Christ will keep his promise to resurrect the dead into what is to become a Paradise on earth. This will include the sinner executed alongside Jesus.

The dead will all be taught Jehovah's ways, and allowed time to practice them without interference from Satan until the end of Christ's 1000 year reign, at which point Satan will be let loose for one last, brief, attempt to prove his case after which all who fall for his lies will be destroyed, as will Satan himself.

The Christ will then hand the Kingdom back to his Father who will then be able to del with humanity directly again to the great rejoicing in heaven and on earth, as the final three chapters of Revelation show.

It is that simple.

It is only such as you who are confused because Satan will not allow you to see what is actually going on. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
graceofgod
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1/19/2016 7:47:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 6:25:29 PM, tstor wrote:
At 1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!
These questions do not make any sense. Are you familiar with the Biblical teaching at all? Throughout the Bible there are people who have their names changed:
Peter = Simon
Jacob = Israel
Abram = Abraham
Michael = Jesus

Jesus is Michael, so the names are synonymous.

Jesus is not michael in any biblical way...
michael is an angel a created being, not the only begotten son of the God...

but that was not my question..

who was resurrected Jesus or michael perhaps both..

does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body in heaven?/
Casten
Posts: 391
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1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?
graceofgod
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1/19/2016 8:00:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 6:53:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!

Its only you who is confused, because you have fallen prey to Satan's counterfeit beliefs.

It is really simple.

Michael was created by his father as Spirit being. thank you so michael is created and not begotten and therefore cannot be Jesus

His father then created everything else through him, making him the Archangel.

but angels create nothing and never have so that makes no sense, the bible says everything was created through Jesus, so i take it the jw's don't follow the bible...

That means he is greater than the angels but less than his father, as is only right by the standards of Jehovah's own law.

Why?

Because he was the only one created solely by Jehovah.

yahweh, michael was created, not begotten so again the jws disgree with the bible

After Adam's sin, humanity was not holy enough for Jehovah to deal with directly and therefore Michael became Jehovah's spokesman, or The Word. In that position he was intermediary between God and men, but not at that point our mediator.

yahweh... Jesus his only begotten son, not michael the created being...

When the time was right Michael, the Archangel, the Word, came to earth to become incarnate in the body of Jesus (John 1:14).

no michael was an angel, the word was God, therefore michael was not the word...

This was in order that he could perform the sacrifice necessary, in that specially created body, to pay the price for what Adam had lost, perfect human life in exchange for perfect human life.

so here michael possess a human body and somehow the sacrifice of an angel accounts for our sins, yet you admitted no angel can save us...

The body of Jesus was duly sacrificed, and Michael returned to his previous glory, but this time as the Christ, being resurrected in spirit.
so the body of Jesus is gone, was it not resurrected as the bible says, the apostles saw the body...
what happened to the spirit of Jesus...

As that resurrected spirit he visited the spirits in prison, and then materialised a human body to visit his disciples.

no the bible says Jesus visited those in prison, show me where it says in scripture michael visited those in prison??

After this he returned to his father's side to await his enemies in heaven being put beneath his feet, so that he could take up his throne and prepare his Kingdom to rule the earth after it too had been cleansed of all opposition. However despite the Kingdom not being fully operations he has always had at least one or two faithful followers, subjects of his Kingdom.
it was not michaels father it was michaels creator.... Jesus according to scripture sits at the right hand of God not michael...

Satan was cast down to the earth, the Gentile Times (Times of the Nations) ended (1914) and Christ was able to start to prepare his Kingdom.

it this when Jesus returned invisibly again, was it Jesus this time or michael, so is michael now back on earth or sat at the right hand of God??/

After the earth has been cleansed of all opposition, Satan will be put out of commission temporarily and the Christ will keep his promise to resurrect the dead into what is to become a Paradise on earth. This will include the sinner executed alongside Jesus.
when you say Christ you mean michael, right, why do you then go to talk about Jesus, it was michael with the thieves at either side according to the jw's...
The dead will all be taught Jehovah's ways, and allowed time to practice them without interference from Satan until the end of Christ's 1000 year reign, at which point Satan will be let loose for one last, brief, attempt to prove his case after which all who fall for his lies will be destroyed, as will Satan himself.

yahweh's.. michael's 1000 year reign according to the jws, or is he still with God I forget..

The Christ will then hand the Kingdom back to his Father who will then be able to del with humanity directly again to the great rejoicing in heaven and on earth, as the final three chapters of Revelation show.

michael will hand back the kingdom according to the jws

It is that simple.

It is only such as you who are confused because Satan will not allow you to see what is actually going on. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

lol no the jw's are confused because they have to change all scripture to make it fit their twisted doctrines...

now if we could have scripture that says michael the christ

michael who is Jesus..

michael the only begotten son..
michael who goes down to hades,,

michael who preaches to the souls in prison...

michael who returns to heaven,
michael who returns invisibly to the earth ...

michael who returns the kingdom to his creator....

then perhaps someone might believe your cultish prattle....

let's face it their is always someone who will believe anything...
graceofgod
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1/19/2016 8:03:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

the jw's seem to inter mix the names michael, the word, Christ and Jesus as if the are one entity, which is obviously not biblical...

but I still would like to know if Jesus now has spirit body in heaven?/

if michael now has a spirit body in heaven??
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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1/19/2016 10:30:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 6:25:29 PM, tstor wrote:
At 1/19/2016 5:49:46 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I asked a jw and of course they didn't know so have probably gone back to the hive mind to find an answer that doesn't drop them in it again...

who was resurrected Jesus, michael, jesus and michael ?
does Jesus now have a spirit body in heaven??
does michael now have a spirit body heaven??

thanks for your time and help...!!
These questions do not make any sense. Are you familiar with the Biblical teaching at all? Throughout the Bible there are people who have their names changed:
Peter = Simon
Jacob = Israel
Abram = Abraham
Michael = Jesus

Jesus is Michael, so the names are synonymous.

Jesus was actually Melchisedec.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/19/2016 11:19:36 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 6:25:29 PM, tstor wrote:

These questions do not make any sense. Are you familiar with the Biblical teaching at all? Throughout the Bible there are people who have their names changed:
Peter = Simon
Matt 4:18 clearly says Simon was called Peter.

Jacob = Israel
Gen 32:28 clearly says Jacobs name was changed to Israel.

Abram = Abraham
Gen 17:5 clearly says Abrams name was changed to Abraham.

Michael = Jesus

Jesus is Michael, so the names are synonymous.

Which scripture clearly shows Michael's name was changed to Jesus?

None?
Of course not, since the whole idea is JW speculation and false doctrine.
Did their so called Holy Ghost reveal this to them in the same way he revealed the day of Christs return which was also false every time they tried to predict it?
The JW's are proven false prophets.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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1/19/2016 11:30:17 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 8:03:36 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

the jw's seem to inter mix the names michael, the word, Christ and Jesus as if the are one entity, which is obviously not biblical...

Christ is not a name it is a title, the Greek equivalent of Messiah.

Jesus is the body that Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst on earth incarnate.

That is what the Bible teaches.


but I still would like to know if Jesus now has spirit body in heaven?

Jesus has never had a spirit body in heaven, he was a specially created human, created to be occupied by the Spirit of Michael, AKA the Word, God's only begotten son.

Michael had a spirit "body" before becoming incarnate in the body of Jesus and also since his resurrection.

if michael now has a spirit body in heaven??
MadCornishBiker
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1/19/2016 11:34:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

Jesus was the name of the human body which the Archangel Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst incarnate.

To obey his father and come to earth to perform the necessary sacrifice a special body had to be prepared for him which was the equal of Adam. That body was born as Jesus.

So yes, Jesus was literally the embodiment of Michael whilst on earth.

That is both how and why the Word, AKA Michael, came and dwelt amongst us, as John says, John 1:14.
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.

Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.
Casten
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1/20/2016 12:56:42 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:34:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

Jesus was the name of the human body which the Archangel Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst incarnate.

To obey his father and come to earth to perform the necessary sacrifice a special body had to be prepared for him which was the equal of Adam. That body was born as Jesus.

So yes, Jesus was literally the embodiment of Michael whilst on earth.

That is both how and why the Word, AKA Michael, came and dwelt amongst us, as John says, John 1:14.
Interesting. I wonder why I haven't heard of this before now. Probably that whole "144,000 chosen" thing stealing the limelight again.

How did Michael and Jesus become linked in the Jehovah's Witnesses' thinking? It's not an idea I'm aware of in other denominations. Where did it come from?
Skyangel
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1/20/2016 8:08:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

They don't. The JW converts just want to believe they are correct, the same as any other religion. All of them want to believe only their particular religion is correct.
They all cherry pick whatever scriptures support their false doctrines.
Skyangel
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1/20/2016 8:10:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

Read post 10 and tell me which scripture clearly shows Michael's name was changed to Jesus?
If you cannot find any, the theory is nothing but JW speculation.
MadCornishBiker
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1/20/2016 11:13:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 8:10:29 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

Read post 10 and tell me which scripture clearly shows Michael's name was changed to Jesus?
If you cannot find any, the theory is nothing but JW speculation.

Of course you can't find any. His name wasn't changed at all.

Jesus was simply the name of the body he inhabited whilst incarnate on earth.

Michael was his name in heaven.

The Word was his pre-human title.

The Christ his post-human title, though it is true he was credited with it whilst on earth also, but whether that was hindsight or not is unknown since he didn't truly become the Christ until his faithful death.

It is true that the Bible does not specifically name Michael as the Word, or as God's only begotten son, however the parallels are two obvious to ignore.

1: Michael is identified as the Prince of Jehovah's people. None but Jehovah's only begotten son could possibly be described that way.

2; Michael is also described as the Archangel, again an epithet which could only be applied to Jehovah's only begotten son.

3: Christ is depicted as calling with the voice of an Archangel, though there can only be one.

The roles occupied by both Jehovah's only begotten son and Michael are seen as interchangeable.

That makes the conclusion inevitable. God's only begotten son is michael, AKA the Word, and the Christ.

Jesus was simply the specially created body, created in Mary's womb, for his use as the needed sacrifice.

It's absolutely logical and straightforward.
MadCornishBiker
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1/20/2016 11:28:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 8:08:51 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

They don't. The JW converts just want to believe they are correct, the same as any other religion. All of them want to believe only their particular religion is correct.
They all cherry pick whatever scriptures support their false doctrines.

No they do not. It does not, cannot, work that way. They use the whole of the BIBle Genesis to Revelation, as you would know if you had ever studied the BIble with them.

One reason that there are only about 8,000,000 JWs is that they are not accepted unless they believe what scripture teaches. If they don;t like it, they can walk away, and in fact are encouraged to walk away. JWs also support 100% the Apostolic insistence on unity of belief. (1 Corinthians 1:10; John 17:20-26).

Everyone uses scattered scriptures to prove their points, but unless the understanding fits into the overall picture the BIble paints then it is wrong. The Bible is, and must be regarded as a harmonious whole from cover to cover. That is one f the main ways Jehovah has protected the understanding of it from Satan's attempts to corrupt it.

Hence you have to use the whole of the Bible to achieve the correct understanding, which does not disturb scripture's overall harmony.

That is why they continually read, and re-read the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

They not only study it that way, but they also study it by topic, or by prophecy.

No-one, absolutely no-one, knows the Bible as intimately as an experienced JW.

They are also encouraged to compare other translations. The NWT is nothing more than the "base line", tying all the others together.

The other, and more important reason for such intensive study is that holy spirit is only used to bring out at need, what you put in. If you haven't put the whole of scripture into you mind, holy spirit cannot draw it out for you to remember.

That is how I, and all JWs, eventually achieve such a deep understanding and total faith.
MadCornishBiker
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1/20/2016 11:38:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 12:56:42 AM, Casten wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:34:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

Jesus was the name of the human body which the Archangel Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst incarnate.

To obey his father and come to earth to perform the necessary sacrifice a special body had to be prepared for him which was the equal of Adam. That body was born as Jesus.

So yes, Jesus was literally the embodiment of Michael whilst on earth.

That is both how and why the Word, AKA Michael, came and dwelt amongst us, as John says, John 1:14.
Interesting. I wonder why I haven't heard of this before now. Probably that whole "144,000 chosen" thing stealing the limelight again.

That is simple. Satan doesn't want people to hear it, he has done all he can to corrupt scripture and religion in order to confuse people and lead them to their eternal destruction, which is where he now knows beyond doubt he is headed in God's due time.

That is why he has created many thousands of false Christian faiths. "Divide and conquer".

The JWs didn't have to steal the limelight, they were given it by Jehovah when he called them to the side of his son. Most didn't want it, but they took to heart Jesus' encouragement to "let your light shine" and have accepted the responsibility which such trust brings with it.

It is interesting how, as Jeremiah found out, you eventually end of determined to do whatever Jehovah wants you to, and in fact find yourself unable to resist doing it.


How did Michael and Jesus become linked in the Jehovah's Witnesses' thinking? It's not an idea I'm aware of in other denominations. Where did it come from?

There is only one answer to that. The Bible.

No-one concentrates their studies so deeply on the Bible.

Even the youngest amongst them are encouraged to read it from cover to cover, over and over again, they are taught to love what it tells them, to recognise its absolute harmony, and to use their knowledge of that harmony to gain understanding.

They are also taught to recognise their need for Jehovah's help in understanding it, though the activity of holy spirit, and to pray for it in faith that they will indeed receive it. (1 Corinthians 2:12-16; James 1:5-8).

No other faith truly treats the Bible as exactly what it is Jehovah's word, a personal message from him to humanity.
JJ50
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1/20/2016 11:39:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
That is how I, and all JWs, eventually achieve such a deep understanding and total faith.

Thanks for making me laugh, LOL!
graceofgod
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1/20/2016 4:15:49 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:30:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/19/2016 8:03:36 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

the jw's seem to inter mix the names michael, the word, Christ and Jesus as if the are one entity, which is obviously not biblical...

Christ is not a name it is a title, the Greek equivalent of Messiah.

Jesus is the body that Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst on earth incarnate.

show me in scripture where it says the angel michael took on the body called Jesus...

so are you saying the body of Jesus existed then eventually michael took it over, possessed it??

That is what the Bible teaches. no it is not...


but I still would like to know if Jesus now has spirit body in heaven?

Jesus has never had a spirit body in heaven, he was a specially created human, created to be occupied by the Spirit of Michael, AKA the Word, God's only begotten son.
so jesus is not in heaven?? it was a created body just for michael to take over is that what you are saying, when did michael take it over??
so Jesus was not resurrected at all but michael was...

Michael had a spirit "body" before becoming incarnate in the body of Jesus and also since his resurrection.

so when the jw's say Jesus returned invisibly to the earth in 1914 do they mean michael or did michael have another Jesus body waiting...??


if michael now has a spirit body in heaven??

so Jesus is not in heaven at all in fact he does not exist and never did..... is that what you are telling me the jw's believe??
graceofgod
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1/20/2016 4:17:27 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.

now that is very true...
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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1/20/2016 8:25:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 8:08:51 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

They don't. The JW converts just want to believe they are correct, the same as any other religion. All of them want to believe only their particular religion is correct.
They all cherry pick whatever scriptures support their false doctrines.

Except you fail to realize--the real teachings of Jesus point one to truth. The teachings of Jesus are the key to all of it--And in every translation on earth his teachings are the same ( except for Earth--Land) at Matt 5:5)-- the rest point to the JW,s as being truth--0 doubt.
kjw47
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1/20/2016 8:31:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 8:10:29 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

Read post 10 and tell me which scripture clearly shows Michael's name was changed to Jesus?
If you cannot find any, the theory is nothing but JW speculation.

No speculation--Fact

Rev 6-- the first ride of the white horse( righteous war) there are only two rides in Revelation--The war in heaven--Har-mageddon.
Many events occur after Rev 6 so it has to be the war in heaven--Michael leads Gods armies against satan and his angels and defeats them, casting them to the earth, never allowed back in heaven--this was the bruising of the head of satan( foretold to be done by Jesus) But Michael did it--as well--he receives his crown( only Jesus gets the crown--only he is Gods appointed king)--but Michael took that ride--At the 2nd ride--Jesus leads Gods armies to the earth( already wearing the crown) at Har-mageddon. 1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel------ it is his voice.--- No Trinitarian believes this evidence--most likely from a lack of knowledge of Gods written word.
Harikrish
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1/20/2016 8:31:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 11:38:24 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/20/2016 12:56:42 AM, Casten wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:34:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/19/2016 7:51:39 PM, Casten wrote:
The secularist is confused over here. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael and Jesus were one and the same? Or that Jesus was the physical embodiment of Michael, in other words?

Jesus was the name of the human body which the Archangel Michael, AKA the word, occupied whilst incarnate.

To obey his father and come to earth to perform the necessary sacrifice a special body had to be prepared for him which was the equal of Adam. That body was born as Jesus.

So yes, Jesus was literally the embodiment of Michael whilst on earth.

That is both how and why the Word, AKA Michael, came and dwelt amongst us, as John says, John 1:14.
Interesting. I wonder why I haven't heard of this before now. Probably that whole "144,000 chosen" thing stealing the limelight again.

That is simple. Satan doesn't want people to hear it, he has done all he can to corrupt scripture and religion in order to confuse people and lead them to their eternal destruction, which is where he now knows beyond doubt he is headed in God's due time.

That is why he has created many thousands of false Christian faiths. "Divide and conquer".

The JWs didn't have to steal the limelight, they were given it by Jehovah when he called them to the side of his son. Most didn't want it, but they took to heart Jesus' encouragement to "let your light shine" and have accepted the responsibility which such trust brings with it.

It is interesting how, as Jeremiah found out, you eventually end of determined to do whatever Jehovah wants you to, and in fact find yourself unable to resist doing it.


How did Michael and Jesus become linked in the Jehovah's Witnesses' thinking? It's not an idea I'm aware of in other denominations. Where did it come from?

There is only one answer to that. The Bible.

No-one concentrates their studies so deeply on the Bible.

Even the youngest amongst them are encouraged to read it from cover to cover, over and over again, they are taught to love what it tells them, to recognise its absolute harmony, and to use their knowledge of that harmony to gain understanding.

They are also taught to recognise their need for Jehovah's help in understanding it, though the activity of holy spirit, and to pray for it in faith that they will indeed receive it. (1 Corinthians 2:12-16; James 1:5-8).

No other faith truly treats the Bible as exactly what it is Jehovah's word, a personal message from him to humanity.

So why are the JW suicide rates 5 to 10 times abive average.

Jehovahs Witnesses suicide rate 5 to 10 times above average.
http://www.culthelp.info...

And why do the JW have higher mental illness levels. You admitted you are suicidal and suffer from clinical depression which is a form of mental illness.

Why Jehovah"s Witnesses Have a High Mental Illness Level
http://www.equip.org...
Harikrish
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1/20/2016 8:53:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Michael is no Jesus

1. The notion that archangel Michael is Jesus was first introduced by the Adventist. Neither White nor Russell of the JW were the first to say this. They borrowed a bad idea and stayed with it. It would remain a quiet or secret matter for more that 200 years before Calvin.

2. Daniel refers to Jesus as the Anointed One and not as Michael or an archangel.

Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens," and sixty-two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two "sevens," the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

After the rejection of Jesus and his death the abomination of destruction to come will be led by Michael the chief of the angels. Jesus being God cannot participate in the killing and destruction. He uses his angels led by Michael.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

3. Only Jesus is referred to as the firstborn of God and never Michael.

Hebrews 1:6
Verse Concepts
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

1 Thessalonians 4:16

4. Jesus will descend from heaven with his army of angels led by veteran archangel Michael. Michael was used by God to battle satan before.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Colossians 1:15 ESV

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

5. No angel was ever called the son of man. Jesus was interchangeably the son of god and the son of man. Angels have always remained angels and distinct.

6. The angels will be under Jesus and accompany him always.

Matthew 25:31 ESV / 6 helpful votes

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

7. Jesus rebukes Satan with his own authority where as Michael does it in the name of God.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

8. Jesus will use the angels to do his fighting and dirty work. That is what angels are for.

Matthew 13:41 ESV / 4 helpful votes

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,

Revelations 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

9. Jesus is superior to all the angels.

Hebrews 1:

The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father"[a]?
Or again,

"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God"s angels worship him."[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire."[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."[e]
10 He also says,

"In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

10. Apologetic Press rehash some of my interpretations.

"The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus" superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, "He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels" (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, "the appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2). "All authority" has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers "have been made subject to Him" (1 Peter 3:22). "In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him" (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, "for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5, RSV)."

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Skyangel
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1/20/2016 9:23:07 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 11:13:45 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/20/2016 8:10:29 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

Read post 10 and tell me which scripture clearly shows Michael's name was changed to Jesus?
If you cannot find any, the theory is nothing but JW speculation.

Of course you can't find any. His name wasn't changed at all.

Tstor says his name was changed like all those other people in the bible. Are you saying he is wrong?

Jesus was simply the name of the body he inhabited whilst incarnate on earth.
Which scripture supports that theory?

Michael was his name in heaven.
Which scripture supports that theory?

The Word was his pre-human title.
Which scripture supports that theory?

The Christ his post-human title, though it is true he was credited with it whilst on earth also, but whether that was hindsight or not is unknown since he didn't truly become the Christ until his faithful death.

Which scripture supports that theory?
Why did people in the story call him Christ while on Earth ? ( Matt 16:16, Mark 8:29, John 6:69, John 11:27 )

It is true that the Bible does not specifically name Michael as the Word, or as God's only begotten son, however the parallels are two obvious to ignore.

So you admit it is nothing but JW speculation and depends entirely on ones perception and personal interpretation of scriptures.

The bible does not specifically name Jesus as the word either. The bible specifically says the word was God
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If you believe Michael or Jesus was the word, are you suggesting Michael or Jesus was God ?

1: Michael is identified as the Prince of Jehovah's people. None but Jehovah's only begotten son could possibly be described that way.

Provide the scripture.

2; Michael is also described as the Archangel, again an epithet which could only be applied to Jehovah's only begotten son.

Jude 1:9 is the only scripture in the whole bible which mentions Michael is the archangel.

Provide any scripture which says the only begotten son is the archangel or the archangel is the only begotten son.

3: Christ is depicted as calling with the voice of an Archangel, though there can only be one.

If you are referring to 1 Thess 4:16. It is about the LORD ( also known as GOD ) descending with the voice of ther archangel. Notice the words in 1 Thess 4:14 ... "will God bring with him".

The roles occupied by both Jehovah's only begotten son and Michael are seen as interchangeable.

Only by JW's, not by anyone else.

That makes the conclusion inevitable. God's only begotten son is michael, AKA the Word, and the Christ.

Only in the minds of those who believe the false doctrines of the JW's.

If you believe Michael is the word then you must believe Michael is God since John 1:1 clearly says the word was GOD. It does not say the word was Michael or the word was Jesus or the word was the son of God.

Jesus was simply the specially created body, created in Mary's womb, for his use as the needed sacrifice.

Jesus is a fictional character as are all the characters in the story.

It's absolutely logical and straightforward.

Dream on.
If you believe Michael is the word, Explain how Michael was God. The bible very clearly states the WORD was GOD.
MadCornishBiker
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1/20/2016 10:39:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 11:39:05 AM, JJ50 wrote:
That is how I, and all JWs, eventually achieve such a deep understanding and total faith.

Thanks for making me laugh, LOL!

You're welcome, but you know what they say, he who laughs last, laughs longest. The JWs and I will be laughing for all eternity.

Unless you finally wake up, and do so in time for it to benefit you.
Skyangel
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1/20/2016 10:46:32 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 11:28:35 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/20/2016 8:08:51 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:38:21 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.


Then how come the teachings of Jesus prove the JW,s are correct? If you learn them you will see the same thing.

They don't. The JW converts just want to believe they are correct, the same as any other religion. All of them want to believe only their particular religion is correct.
They all cherry pick whatever scriptures support their false doctrines.

No they do not. It does not, cannot, work that way. They use the whole of the BIBle Genesis to Revelation, as you would know if you had ever studied the BIble with them.

So do all other religions which use the bible. They all cherry pick whatever scriptures fit their false doctrines and ignore the ones that don't or claim they are misprints or not correct interpretations from the original documents.

One reason that there are only about 8,000,000 JWs is that they are not accepted unless they believe what scripture teaches. If they don;t like it, they can walk away, and in fact are encouraged to walk away. JWs also support 100% the Apostolic insistence on unity of belief. (1 Corinthians 1:10; John 17:20-26).

Sure, I understand they only accept the gullible people who will believe their lies. Apparently there are a lot of gullible people in this world.
Anyone can walk away from any religion. None of them can force members to remain with them.
However, very few will walk away from family and friends in the same religions so they stay there simply because of duty or peer pressure.
The sad thing is that the JW's simply refuse to associate with anyone who walks away from their religion and all members know that, so if they wish to retain association with their friends and family in the religion they are obligated to stay there.

Everyone uses scattered scriptures to prove their points, but unless the understanding fits into the overall picture the BIble paints then it is wrong. The Bible is, and must be regarded as a harmonious whole from cover to cover. That is one f the main ways Jehovah has protected the understanding of it from Satan's attempts to corrupt it.

The bible paints the overall picture that God is all and in all. That would include in Satan, in darkness, and in hell as well.

Hence you have to use the whole of the Bible to achieve the correct understanding, which does not disturb scripture's overall harmony.

You disturb the overall harmony as soon as you reject or ignore all the scriptures which don't fit in with your false doctrines.

That is why they continually read, and re-read the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Good for them. They are forever reading and never realize the truth. That is why they are constantly making such huge errors and preaching false doctrines.
2 Tim 3:17 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They not only study it that way, but they also study it by topic, or by prophecy.

So do all the other religions so they are nothing special in that regard.

No-one, absolutely no-one, knows the Bible as intimately as an experienced JW.

Keep fooling yourself MCB. Feel free to believe your own lies.

They are also encouraged to compare other translations. The NWT is nothing more than the "base line", tying all the others together.

So are all other religions.

The other, and more important reason for such intensive study is that holy spirit is only used to bring out at need, what you put in. If you haven't put the whole of scripture into you mind, holy spirit cannot draw it out for you to remember.

That is how I, and all JWs, eventually achieve such a deep understanding and total faith.

Your so called deep understanding is very shallow from where I AM standing and observing.

It goes far deeper than you can handle. You simply don't want to know the truth because you can't handle it. Keep paddling your canoe in your shallow waters where you feel safe.
Skyangel
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1/20/2016 10:49:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 4:17:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 1/19/2016 11:07:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
JW speculation and false doctrines are hilarious. It's even more hilarious that so many gullible adults are fooled by them and actually believe their lies.

now that is very true...

It is true about all religions including yours. None are exempt.