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Reality versus Delusion

ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/20/2016 2:37:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

This is true of any degree of questioning, though. How does a theist know that they are rational? Its equal footing, as they too might be suffering from delusion. Ergo, its a moot point.

Some of the most simple assumptions of philosophy is that reality is as we behold it, with appreciable differences from one perspective to another.

Lastly: please explain the "atheist cannot allow for the non-material" portion of your posit. There are plenty of non material things that atheists have no problem with, ranging from emotion to the conceptual.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/20/2016 2:52:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Is it true that this is a problem for all philosophical systems? If so, how do you know?

And the delusional believe reality is what they perceive it to be regardless of how it actually is. Your post confirms atheists are delusional.

And from where does an atheist get the non-material?
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/20/2016 2:55:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

Show me the non-material.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/20/2016 3:04:44 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:52:02 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Is it true that this is a problem for all philosophical systems? If so, how do you know?

How about you answer the question of how ANYONE can know without using their own rationale?

And the delusional believe reality is what they perceive it to be regardless of how it actually is. Your post confirms atheists are delusional.

Please explain that.

And from where does an atheist get the non-material?

The conceptual? If you approach an atheist and tell him you can't possibly understand the idea of a "chair" because the idea of a "chair" is non-material, you would be rightly laughed at.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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1/20/2016 3:04:50 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:52:02 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Is it true that this is a problem for all philosophical systems? If so, how do you know?

And the delusional believe reality is what they perceive it to be regardless of how it actually is. Your post confirms atheists are delusional.

And from where does an atheist get the non-material?

Ok then what do you say is the proof of reality? And in who"s judgement is that made?

You don"t have to be an atheist or a theist to perceive what is true or misinterpret what is truly there. Either one seeks the truth knowing that the truth is greater or more powerful then one's self, or one refuses or denies the truth for what is in their own judgement of what ought to be.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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1/20/2016 3:27:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

Questionable premise: rationality is non material and not dependent on material.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/20/2016 3:39:22 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

Everyone uses basically the same set of senses to interact with the world around them. When we are able to successfully navigate this world, do our work, speak to our friends, make a living, and generally do what the vast majority of people do, we can safely assume we are not delusional. Rationality and knowledge are emergent properties of our material brains, the source of all human sentience and characteristics. This is easily demonstrated by the fact that damage to that organ can have effects on the very basic individual characteristics and abilities of the individual. It is a false dichotomy to try and divide thought and logic from the functions of the human brain because they exist nowhere else. It's a very transparent attempt to discredit atheism and it is a failure. Sorry you wasted your time.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/20/2016 4:01:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 3:04:50 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 1/20/2016 2:52:02 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
Is it true that this is a problem for all philosophical systems? If so, how do you know?

And the delusional believe reality is what they perceive it to be regardless of how it actually is. Your post confirms atheists are delusional.

And from where does an atheist get the non-material?

Ok then what do you say is the proof of reality? And in who"s judgement is that made?


You don"t have to be an atheist or a theist to perceive what is true or misinterpret what is truly there. Either one seeks the truth knowing that the truth is greater or more powerful then one's self, or one refuses or denies the truth for what is in their own judgement of what ought to be.

So show me the evidence of the non material, show me the evidence of the spiritual and I'll believe you.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/20/2016 5:01:39 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
To bulproof, by definition the non-material cannot be observed. Thus, to ask me to show it to you is to commit the logical fallacy of the category error. Because most atheists I have dealt with are ignorant of logic, I will demonstrate the folly of your Q, by asking you to tell me what the color green sounds like.

To DPMartin, I know reality the same way you do: via revelation. You just suppress this truth in unrighteousness. It is God who determines what is real and what is not and we can know what He determines to be real byy His Word.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/20/2016 5:03:34 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 5:01:39 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
To bulproof, by definition the non-material cannot be observed. Thus, to ask me to show it to you is to commit the logical fallacy of the category error. Because most atheists I have dealt with are ignorant of logic, I will demonstrate the folly of your Q, by asking you to tell me what the color green sounds like.

To DPMartin, I know reality the same way you do: via revelation. You just suppress this truth in unrighteousness. It is God who determines what is real and what is not and we can know what He determines to be real byy His Word.

Yes but how do you know its divine revelation, and not delusion?

And how are you certain of that?

And how are you certain of that?

And how are you certain of that?

Ad infinitum ad nauseam.

Politely: you are on no better footing, you just invented a middle man to make it better.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/20/2016 5:04:22 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
To Faustianjustice, while I answered DPMartin, my answer is not relevant as I reject atheism as the believe system of mentally ill children. If you cannot give me a rational way that you, assuming are an atheist, can tell reality from delusion, nothing you say will matter, including what you find "laughable."

More soon.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/20/2016 5:07:53 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 5:04:22 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
To Faustianjustice, while I answered DPMartin, my answer is not relevant as I reject atheism as the believe system of mentally ill children.

You don't have to reject atheism to see the glaring hole in your philosophy.

If you cannot give me a rational way that you, assuming are an atheist, can tell reality from delusion, nothing you say will matter, including what you find "laughable."

And if you cannot give me a way in that you, assuming you are theistic, can tell reality from delusion, nothing you say will matter, including what you find to be "divine revelation".
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/20/2016 11:51:54 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I love it when atheists tell me of my great philosophical problem but cannot tell me what it is, all while running from my Qs. Yea, THEY are the guardians of rationality.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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1/21/2016 12:02:51 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 5:01:39 PM, ViceRegent wrote:


To DPMartin, I know reality the same way you do: via revelation. You just suppress this truth in unrighteousness. It is God who determines what is real and what is not and we can know what He determines to be real byy His Word.

Well you assume others don't know what you know, so that already makes you a fool.
Doesn't it? I"m not required to be righteous, Christ and the Life He has given already is righteous, with or without me.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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1/21/2016 12:02:54 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Every person on the planet shares the same reality, but does not share the same delusion.

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

Because, every person on the planet is affected by reality, but are not affected by delusion.

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

The non-material has never been shown to be part of reality, it is not shared by every person on the planet, hence it is a delusion.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/21/2016 12:16:46 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

I love how you go around telling people you are this great rationalist then confuse atheism with physicalism.

Also since you think to yourself you are this great rational thinker, you realize appealing to ignorance to justify God is irrational right ?

For example, Only God (my God) can account for x,y,z.

Well atheists how do you explain x,y,z ? you can't, therefore God.

If there is one thing that makes me want to slap the sh*t out of some one, its the smug f*cker who goes around asking rhetorical questions about how do you explain this and that, and when no answer is forth coming actually thinks this is just a great reason to believe in God (well there God, not the other guys God, the others guys God is bullsh*t).
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/21/2016 12:42:09 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 2:30:06 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

I say they cannot because rationality and knowledge and non-material and the atheist cannot allow for the non-material.

Simple, we just accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, rejoice in his blood shed as the atonement we need to bet back together with God then get together with like minded people and tell ourselves how right we are cause we lives in Gods truth as told by God in the bible and how wrong everyone else is cause they live under Satan...........

Okey play time is over, I would slightly modify your question, what things gives us a better probability of getting to the truth ? what things lower the probability of getting to to the truth ?

Critical reasoning I think has shown time and time again how we wrongly reason, and having a knowledge about this helps lower error here.

Science at least tries to get your own biases out of the way by making conclusions based on evidence............regardless of how you feel or want things to be and is always open to new evidence even if it contradicts previously accept beliefs. (This is what it means to be open minded)

Eg, the double blind trial of various drug treatments. It doesn't matter what you really really want to be the case, the evidence trumps anyone and everyone will here.

Now compare this to some religions where you are given some religious dogma that must be accepted, never rejected regardless of anything. (This is what it means to be closed minded)

I would also add results matter, I don't care if some one has bridge building concepts built on the best air tight logical God arguments ever, the real test is results.

ONce again this is where science is kicking religions a&&. RESULTS MATTER.

Modern medicine vs praying to Jesus, Zeus, getting rid of theatens, tapping into positive energies of the universe.............
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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1/21/2016 12:53:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 5:01:39 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
To bulproof, by definition the non-material cannot be observed.

Then, based on your words, not only can anyone not know about it, no one can even hypothesize it, one can only fantasize about the non-material.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/21/2016 4:47:57 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:53:50 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/20/2016 5:01:39 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
To bulproof, by definition the non-material cannot be observed.

Then, based on your words, not only can anyone not know about it, no one can even hypothesize it, one can only fantasize about the non-material.
Ya beat me to it DJ.
S/he won't get it though.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/21/2016 9:13:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
>Then, based on your words, not only can anyone not know about it, no one can even >hypothesize it, one can only fantasize about the non-material.

This would be true is one buys you foolish assumption that things can only be known by empirical inquiry. I don't To the contrary, empiricism does not allow you to know anything. But nice try.

Indeed, I would point out that 99.9999% of everything you hold to be true is not backed up by your own empirical studies or even reading other people's studies. Take for example you own birthday. Did you do an empirical study that you birthday was on such-and-such a date? Nope, for your birth date is not repeatable. Rather, you take it on blind faith, believing what your mommy and daddy told you and/or what those who claim to be your doctors put on your medical records and/or worse, what the government put on your birth certificate.

You people do not even follow your own beliefs, which is good, for they are irrational.
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/21/2016 9:22:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
>>How does any atheist rationally know reality from delusion?

> Every person on the planet shares the same reality, but does not share the same delusion.

True, but irrelevant, for the question was how you know you are not delusional.

>> Asking this another way, given that there are delusional people in this world, people who, for whatever reason, cannot tell reality from delusion, how does any atheist know they are not one of them?

> Because, every person on the planet is affected by reality, but are not affected by delusion.

The question presupposed the existence of the sane and the delusional. Your "answer" restates what the question presupposed. You did not answer the Q.

>The non-material has never been shown to be part of reality, it is not shared by every person on the planet, hence it is a delusion.

You seem confused. First you say is have not been shown to exist and then you tell me something about it. Next, your statement is logically absurd given that reality is not affected by your or any collective's view of it. Indeed, to believe your beliefs determine reality is a sign you are delusional. Which adds another data point to my view that atheism is a mental illness.

Now, can someone actually rationally answer the OP?
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/21/2016 11:34:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 9:22:01 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
Indeed, to believe your beliefs determine reality is a sign you are delusional.
How very true theist, how very true. hahaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/21/2016 12:21:31 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/20/2016 11:51:54 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I love it when atheists tell me of my great philosophical problem but cannot tell me what it is...

Frag off, you acknowledged it and ignored it... "Is it true that this is a problem for all philosophical systems? "

Dodging the question doesn't remove how it applies to your argument.

The philosophical problem is that you are using your own rationale to determine what is rational, reasonable, or logical, then claiming when other people do it, its question begging. Its a double standard.

To wit: how can you demonstrate that whatever God you believe is not part of your delusion?

And how can you demonstrate that your demonstration is not part of the delusion?

And how can you demonstrate that your demonstration of that demonstration is not part of the delusion?

You claim atheists question beg, but then rely on it for your own explanation.

Double standard.

You are dismissed.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
ViceRegent
Posts: 604
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1/21/2016 12:28:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
This dude asks a question and I am to read that as a statement that my system has a problem? Wow, these people really are ignorant of not only logic, but basic English composition.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/21/2016 12:30:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 11:34:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/21/2016 9:22:01 AM, ViceRegent wrote:
Indeed, to believe your beliefs determine reality is a sign you are delusional.
How very true theist, how very true. hahaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ViceRegent
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1/21/2016 12:32:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I am still waiting for one atheist to deal with the OP. The refusal to do so is evidence my accusation is right.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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1/21/2016 12:41:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:32:57 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I am still waiting for one atheist to deal with the OP. The refusal to do so is evidence my accusation is right.

"The philosophical problem is that you are using your own rationale to determine what is rational, reasonable, or logical, then claiming when other people do it, its question begging. Its a double standard.

To wit: ..."

Your ignorance of what is presented is not evidence to your claim.

You are dismissed.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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1/21/2016 12:47:32 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/21/2016 12:32:57 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
I am still waiting for one atheist to deal with the OP. The refusal to do so is evidence my accusation is right.

Post#9
Post#21
Post#24
Post#27
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin