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God, immirgation issue and the amputee

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/22/2016 10:45:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He's an intern at this church, and so I said, "God, I need you to help me with this," as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, "I'm an immigration attorney; I'd be happy to take this case." Now, if that happened once in my life I'd say, "That is a coincidence." If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence."

HARRIS: I would put it at impatient rather than angry. Let me respond to this notion of answered prayer, because this is a classic sampling error, to use a statistical phrase. We know that human beings have a terrible sense of probability. There are many things we believe that confirm our prejudices about the world, and we believe this only by noticing the confirmations, and not keeping track of the disconfirmations. You could prove to the satisfaction of every scientist that intercessory prayer works if you set up a simple experiment. Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. [Warren is laughing.] I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

http://web.archive.org...

In the world of Rick Warren, if you have an immigration issue the all mighty just might help you out, if your an amputee...................
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/22/2016 11:57:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/22/2016 10:45:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He's an intern at this church, and so I said, "God, I need you to help me with this," as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, "I'm an immigration attorney; I'd be happy to take this case." Now, if that happened once in my life I'd say, "That is a coincidence." If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence."

HARRIS: I would put it at impatient rather than angry. Let me respond to this notion of answered prayer, because this is a classic sampling error, to use a statistical phrase. We know that human beings have a terrible sense of probability. There are many things we believe that confirm our prejudices about the world, and we believe this only by noticing the confirmations, and not keeping track of the disconfirmations. You could prove to the satisfaction of every scientist that intercessory prayer works if you set up a simple experiment. Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. [Warren is laughing.] I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

http://web.archive.org...

In the world of Rick Warren, if you have an immigration issue the all mighty just might help you out, if your an amputee...................

The deity would be playing evil games if it could answer prayer positively but for the most part doesn't! How could it not respond positively to the desperate prayers of a parent for the life of their gravely ill child?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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1/22/2016 12:23:31 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/22/2016 10:45:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He's an intern at this church, and so I said, "God, I need you to help me with this," as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, "I'm an immigration attorney; I'd be happy to take this case." Now, if that happened once in my life I'd say, "That is a coincidence." If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence."

HARRIS: I would put it at impatient rather than angry. Let me respond to this notion of answered prayer, because this is a classic sampling error, to use a statistical phrase. We know that human beings have a terrible sense of probability. There are many things we believe that confirm our prejudices about the world, and we believe this only by noticing the confirmations, and not keeping track of the disconfirmations. You could prove to the satisfaction of every scientist that intercessory prayer works if you set up a simple experiment. Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. [Warren is laughing.] I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

http://web.archive.org...

In the world of Rick Warren, if you have an immigration issue the all mighty just might help you out, if your an amputee...................

Please don't take this the wrong way, spiritual principles/laws are like natural laws in that they work by principle or set laws or conditions rather than emotion. God, even though He may be aware, doesn't actually sit around looking at everyone and listening to all our blabber (one could only imagine what that would do to a person) because most of our physical problems have A physical cause (cause and effect/reaping and sowing) and if God starts interfering with the natural laws and systems of things where would it end? If God starts growing limbs back then why not do this or that? soon we will have God scratching our butts, believe me I don't know if you thought this through or not....if it is an irritation that people with limbs missing aren't growing them through prayer then what if missing limbs weren't an issue?? we could just as easily start moving the ol' goal post around and why not? God is now responsible for people losing their limbs so let's eat the whole cake right lol?

But no, rather spiritual elements like "prayer, faith, fasting, worshiping" ect... are based purely on principle, that is why the results seem erratic and appear impersonal because just like gravity, what comes up must come down regardless if it's an old lady falling off a building and dying. Spiritual elements are similar in that they won't work unless all conditions are matched perfectly for the "law/principle" to work, in other words there can be no obstruction in the path of the old lady that fell off the building for gravity to do what it does. So gravity may come across as impersonal or cruel because it didn't alter it's function to save the granny. Here is an example in scripture just for the heck of it....
James 1
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Hewbrews 11

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

As you can see from the above, spiritual laws work through principle and not by emotion leaving room for error and ineffectiveness.

So basically prayer may work and it may not, depends on who's praying and what the conditions are both physically and spiritually and because of that very few people walk around like Jesus did because He was the peak and culmination of what is possible, not necessarily what someone will achieve.
To understand how spiritual elements operate and function we have to be an observer of the word and the Spirit, otherwise we may not get what we asked.

The reason it may appear that " people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting" (even though untrue) would be because spirituality is personal, it mainly/firstly involves the individual because it is a self-examining process. Prayer is mainly incorporated in peoples lives for spiritual purposes and not really for making a show of things and because of that some immature believers may say things stupid and seemingly selfish for example you may get irritated because a believer prayed for something personal like a job or something like that when they could have prayed for the sick neighbor...... well I would agree with some of that but what it comes down to is a persons level of depth or how shallow they may be, it may or may not represent selfishness.
You also should consider peoples personalities, while it may be convenient and non invasive to pray for something personal some people may be hesitant or fearful to publicly pray or may not have any resources to fly around praying for amputees, it's entirely possible no amputees are known to most spiritual persons.

You also have to consider perspectives, while it may suck to not have an arm most "spiritual" folks are spiritually-minded, placing less significance on the flesh for example someone may deem it more valuable or more of a "miracle" that someone gains something spiritual in nature rather than physical obviously because one being temporal and the other eternal. Then it is a matter of perspective and not a matter of selfishness or lack of compassion. Could be just a matter of what one believers to be valuable at the time.

Sorry to ramble Illegal, I'm just throwing a few ideas out there to get the juices flowing, I don't have all the answers either, but I do know some things and this is one of those hard topics that can lead to misunderstandings and anger so please understand I'm looking at this objectively for the sake of argument.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/22/2016 12:28:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/22/2016 12:23:31 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/22/2016 10:45:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He's an intern at this church, and so I said, "God, I need you to help me with this," as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, "I'm an immigration attorney; I'd be happy to take this case." Now, if that happened once in my life I'd say, "That is a coincidence." If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence."

HARRIS: I would put it at impatient rather than angry. Let me respond to this notion of answered prayer, because this is a classic sampling error, to use a statistical phrase. We know that human beings have a terrible sense of probability. There are many things we believe that confirm our prejudices about the world, and we believe this only by noticing the confirmations, and not keeping track of the disconfirmations. You could prove to the satisfaction of every scientist that intercessory prayer works if you set up a simple experiment. Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. [Warren is laughing.] I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

http://web.archive.org...

In the world of Rick Warren, if you have an immigration issue the all mighty just might help you out, if your an amputee...................

Please don't take this the wrong way, spiritual principles/laws are like natural laws in that they work by principle or set laws or conditions rather than emotion. God, even though He may be aware, doesn't actually sit around looking at everyone and listening to all our blabber (one could only imagine what that would do to a person) because most of our physical problems have A physical cause (cause and effect/reaping and sowing) and if God starts interfering with the natural laws and systems of things where would it end? If God starts growing limbs back then why not do this or that? soon we will have God scratching our butts, believe me I don't know if you thought this through or not....if it is an irritation that people with limbs missing aren't growing them through prayer then what if missing limbs weren't an issue?? we could just as easily start moving the ol' goal post around and why not? God is now responsible for people losing their limbs so let's eat the whole cake right lol?

No, But such a God is responsible for what is does not do.

Do I have to really read the rest of you stuff, which I assume is an attempt to try and not come to the most obvious conclusion of what is going on here.........
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/22/2016 12:30:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/22/2016 12:23:31 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/22/2016 10:45:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He's an intern at this church, and so I said, "God, I need you to help me with this," as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, "I'm an immigration attorney; I'd be happy to take this case." Now, if that happened once in my life I'd say, "That is a coincidence." If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence."

HARRIS: I would put it at impatient rather than angry. Let me respond to this notion of answered prayer, because this is a classic sampling error, to use a statistical phrase. We know that human beings have a terrible sense of probability. There are many things we believe that confirm our prejudices about the world, and we believe this only by noticing the confirmations, and not keeping track of the disconfirmations. You could prove to the satisfaction of every scientist that intercessory prayer works if you set up a simple experiment. Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. [Warren is laughing.] I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

http://web.archive.org...

In the world of Rick Warren, if you have an immigration issue the all mighty just might help you out, if your an amputee...................


Sorry to ramble Illegal, I'm just throwing a few ideas out there to get the juices flowing, I don't have all the answers either, but I do know some things and this is one of those hard topics that can lead to misunderstandings and anger so please understand I'm looking at this objectively for the sake of argument.

Here is an "idea" prayer doesn't work, and people come up with excuses rather than just acknowledge the state of the evidence which doesn't support a desired conclusion.

Eg, RIck warren,

Eg, You ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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1/22/2016 12:43:52 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
How fun are things that start with . Joseph 7:2, or Matthew 8:9 . I think There must be some text book or something that Christians read from . Paul 5:3, I'm going to make one , and when asked a question , I can quote . Well as you can see in.

knob 6:2 what you said is wrong .

And in your 1st question we can see in

Jockey 5:8 and the gods where false, thy tis tos low.

So your obviously wrong ,