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Nihilism vs. Absurdism

FREEDO
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10/26/2010 12:05:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
(leaving other possibilities out, just for this thread) Is true morality logically impossible or simply incomprehensible?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
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10/26/2010 12:17:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 12:05:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
(leaving other possibilities out, just for this thread) Is true morality logically impossible or simply incomprehensible?

If morality were incomprehensible, it would have to be created that way; else, it would be accessible to the beings who are to make use of it.
Sobriquet
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10/26/2010 12:46:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well...Absurdism is more existentialism than anything else. I'm probably not answering your question at all, but I'll throw my knowledge out there.

Absurdism is sometimes unclear, but my understanding is that the name comes from the humans search for meaning, and their inability to find any. The philosophy states this is because the universe is meaningless (without objective meaning).

What I think sets it apart is that
1) It says we can create meaning for ourselves
2) There may be meaning in the search itself (for objective meaning)
3) The only solutions to the absurd are suicide, religion, and acceptance of the absurd

Camus said we can find happiness in the acceptance of the absurd. Through accepting the absurd we reject moral and religious constraints and hopefully derive meaning for ourselves in the process(though creating meaning for ourselves isnt necessary).
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
FREEDO
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10/26/2010 12:48:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 12:46:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
Well...Absurdism is more existentialism than anything else. I'm probably not answering your question at all, but I'll throw my knowledge out there.

Absurdism is sometimes unclear, but my understanding is that the name comes from the humans search for meaning, and their inability to find any. The philosophy states this is because the universe is meaningless (without objective meaning).

What I think sets it apart is that
1) It says we can create meaning for ourselves
2) There may be meaning in the search itself (for objective meaning)
3) The only solutions to the absurd are suicide, religion, and acceptance of the absurd

Camus said we can find happiness in the acceptance of the absurd. Through accepting the absurd we reject moral and religious constraints and hopefully derive meaning for ourselves in the process(though creating meaning for ourselves isnt necessary).

Spot on, chap.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/26/2010 1:02:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Right, so absurdism says the universe is inherently meaningless and in the process rejects objective meaning and (I believe...) objective morality.

While Nihilism may say true morality is logically impossible, Absurdism arrives at a similar conclusion, but it differs when it comes to creating meaning for ourselves, and finding meaning in the search for objective meaning that isn't there. I'd say its up to you to figure out whether or not you believe there to be individual meaning and whether or not you can be content through understanding the absurd (rejecting religious/moral/etc constraints)
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
FREEDO
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10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Sobriquet
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10/26/2010 1:08:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

Right- thanks. I'm not well versed in Nihilism.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Sobriquet
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10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
FREEDO
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10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/26/2010 1:24:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P

Because he is absurd.
FREEDO
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10/26/2010 1:25:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:24:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P

Because he is absurd.

Ding-ding.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/26/2010 1:30:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:25:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:24:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P

Because he is absurd.

Ding-ding.

haha alright, well I've given near the extent of my knowledge on Absurdism. Whatever your choice may be, both Nihilism and Absurdism are pretty similar. Now that we know you're absurd yourself (lol) is there any specific part of Absurdism that pushes you away from it? Something you don't agree with?
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/26/2010 1:38:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:30:43 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:25:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:24:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P

Because he is absurd.

Ding-ding.

haha alright, well I've given near the extent of my knowledge on Absurdism. Whatever your choice may be, both Nihilism and Absurdism are pretty similar. Now that we know you're absurd yourself (lol) is there any specific part of Absurdism that pushes you away from it? Something you don't agree with?

STOP! I'm still in the honeymoon phase of my new philosophy for the week!
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/26/2010 1:38:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:38:08 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:30:43 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:25:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:24:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:23:11 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:20:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:13:52 AM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:58 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Absurdism, in the briefest summary, is essentially the acknowledgment of one's complete ignorance about essentially everything.

Maybe I'm not totally getting this, but would you mind elaborating on this point? I dont think thats the summary I'd end up at.

My understanding of Absurdism goes as far as The Myth of Sisyphus.

It was a complete over-simplification but in all honesty Absurdism is exactly what it sounds like, quite absurd. It's not meant to make much sense. But when in doubt consult Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

If its so absurd, then why are you considering it? :P

Because he is absurd.

Ding-ding.

haha alright, well I've given near the extent of my knowledge on Absurdism. Whatever your choice may be, both Nihilism and Absurdism are pretty similar. Now that we know you're absurd yourself (lol) is there any specific part of Absurdism that pushes you away from it? Something you don't agree with?

STOP! I'm still in the honeymoon phase of my new philosophy for the week!

So there is something with which you disagree? :)
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/26/2010 1:43:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Alright. I probably couldn't resolve those issues for you anyway. I'm not a full fledged absurdist, but Camus is where I started with philosophy.

Enjoy your honeymoon
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/26/2010 3:02:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 12:05:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
(leaving other possibilities out, just for this thread) Is true morality logically impossible or simply incomprehensible?

What is true morality? Is that a thing, can that be a thing?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/26/2010 3:03:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

It doesn't? Shoot... that makes me a nihilist then. Woo-hoo... I get to wear black and be edgy.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/26/2010 3:18:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 3:03:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

It doesn't? Shoot... that makes me a nihilist then. Woo-hoo... I get to wear black and be edgy.

I don't really do either. But welcome to the club.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/26/2010 5:49:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 3:18:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/26/2010 3:03:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

It doesn't? Shoot... that makes me a nihilist then. Woo-hoo... I get to wear black and be edgy.

I don't really do either. But welcome to the club.

Just being sarcastic about the black edgyness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
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10/26/2010 7:32:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

Given what you Mean by "intrinsic meaning" I'd say Your way of defining Nihilist is pretty useless, as I've never heard / can't imagine anyone ever arguing against your position that Meaning is a function of some type of being that cares.

I'd say a much more useful way of using the word is using it to mean a Complete Denier of Meaning. Someone who either just Doesn't care Or who Rejects their cares would bring forth due to apathetic pessimism.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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10/26/2010 9:18:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 7:32:48 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

Given what you Mean by "intrinsic meaning" I'd say Your way of defining Nihilist is pretty useless, as I've never heard / can't imagine anyone ever arguing against your position that Meaning is a function of some type of being that cares.

Let me help you out with this then - many believe the world to have inherent meaning (mostly theists) and same with our existence. Nihilism is AGAINST that notion of inherent/intrinsic meaning and realizes that the world (and us) is intrinsically meaningless. Get it?

I'd say a much more useful way of using the word is using it to mean a Complete Denier of Meaning. Someone who either just Doesn't care Or who Rejects their cares would bring forth due to apathetic pessimism.

You have got to be kidding, matt.... You've done this in two different threads now. Whether you like it or not, Nihilism is the denial of INTRINSIC meaning. It does not negate the possibility of individual meaning or care. How is that a problem?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/26/2010 9:34:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 9:18:25 AM, annhasle wrote:

You have got to be kidding, matt.... You've done this in two different threads now. Whether you like it or not, Nihilism is the denial of INTRINSIC meaning. It does not negate the possibility of individual meaning or care. How is that a problem?

That is what I was stuck on, I thought that nihilism was the denial of all 'value'. I am happy to deny intrinsic moral meanings though at the time choose to derive my own subjective meanings.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
annhasle
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10/26/2010 9:37:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 9:34:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/26/2010 9:18:25 AM, annhasle wrote:

You have got to be kidding, matt.... You've done this in two different threads now. Whether you like it or not, Nihilism is the denial of INTRINSIC meaning. It does not negate the possibility of individual meaning or care. How is that a problem?

That is what I was stuck on, I thought that nihilism was the denial of all 'value'. I am happy to deny intrinsic moral meanings though at the time choose to derive my own subjective meanings.

Nihilism does NOT say you must deny all meaning. HOWEVER, many Nihilists do. It's up to you.

However matt keeps talking of 'True Nihilism' and the like... which irked me.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Reasoning
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10/26/2010 9:59:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 9:37:18 AM, annhasle wrote:
However matt keeps talking of 'True Nihilism' and the like... which irked me.

No True Scottsman, amirite?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
annhasle
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10/26/2010 10:07:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 9:59:45 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/26/2010 9:37:18 AM, annhasle wrote:
However matt keeps talking of 'True Nihilism' and the like... which irked me.

No True Scottsman, amirite?

Yep. One of the most annoying fallacies imo....
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Zetsubou
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10/26/2010 10:30:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You really need to stop using the title nihilist. Nihilist refers to one who believes in the lack of meaning in an aspect of life or life completely.

Stop claiming to be nihilist because you don't live up to the pessimistic, almost misanthropic, view of life that classical nihilism actually is.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
mattrodstrom
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10/26/2010 12:30:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/26/2010 9:18:25 AM, annhasle wrote:
At 10/26/2010 7:32:48 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 10/26/2010 1:05:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Nihilism doesn't reject the notion of self-created meaning--only of intrinsic meaning.

Given what you Mean by "intrinsic meaning" I'd say Your way of defining Nihilist is pretty useless, as I've never heard / can't imagine anyone ever arguing against your position that Meaning is a function of some type of being that cares.

Let me help you out with this then - many believe the world to have inherent meaning (mostly theists) and same with our existence. Nihilism is AGAINST that notion of inherent/intrinsic meaning and realizes that the world (and us) is intrinsically meaningless. Get it?

Cfrank says "Intrinsic Meaning" is Meaning w/o anyone caring... INCLUDING any Transcendent God figure.

I don't think ANYBODY takes that position.

I said I think what Most people who claim "intrinsic meaning" to things REALLY mean that some Transcendent Godish figure cares... and made things such that they in alignment with his cares...

This would make things have "Meaning" to God...

however this Is NOT what CF meant when he said "intrinsic meaning" he means the things are meaningful W/O any being caring.

so... In CF's case I wouldn't use his Definition b/c it's useless, in that it doesn't exclude ANYONE... EVERYONE WOULD AGREE that things don't have "meaning" if NO BEING cared.

In your case... I'd say you're going a step too far with the christians (and other theists)... your argument with them about "meaning" Hinges COMPLETELY on whether or not a Transcendent God exists....

... describing yourself as a Nihilist (so far as you define nihilist) is NO MORE DESCRIPTIVE than describing yourself as an atheist.
so.. you might as well stick to atheist.

so... The only useful definition of Nihilist left... IS MINE! (and Nietzsches)
the broadest of them... Nihilist = Meaning Denier/Meaning Rejecter

someone who either simply doesn't care... or, more frequently, someone who has developed disdain for those Natural cares that tug on them from time to time.

I'd say a much more useful way of using the word is using it to mean a Complete Denier of Meaning. Someone who either just Doesn't care Or who Rejects their cares would bring forth due to apathetic pessimism.

You have got to be kidding, matt.... You've done this in two different threads now. Whether you like it or not, Nihilism is the denial of INTRINSIC meaning. It does not negate the possibility of individual meaning or care. How is that a problem?

what do you mean by "intrinsic meaning"?
if you mean a due to a Transcendent/God's will... then that's not what Cody was talking bout...

he said it's 'Meaning' without any being caring.

that doesn't exist, sure... but noone would claim it does. Meaning is Meaningful to those who care... theist just think things are meaningful to God.

Nobody says: there's "Meaning" in things EVEN IF NOONE CARES....

this is what cody means when he says intrinsic meaning.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."