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Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

"Pro how does a punishment of stoning match the crime of lying to your dad/husband about being a virgin?"

The punishment (used by all people of the time period) was to punish sexual sin. When a man/women had an affair and then lied about it...they were punished by death. That is just the way things were back then. People back then cared more about honoring each other than we do in our society.

"Pro is going to make the argument that god is the source of moral authority, then why shouldn't we stone some teenage girls?"

Because God doesn"t ask us to stone teenage girls.

"Pro is owning another human as property moral or not?"

No, that is not moral.

"You can claim god freed slaves, but he made rules for slavery"

No, he put restrictions on slave owners and allowed people to make good and bad decisions. God allows people to make the choice to have slaves. Although it should be noted that he will eventually punish them for their bad choices.

"You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery"

Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people and you would be a dictator. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decisions. He hates slavery but still allows people to make choices. And he also promises it will end.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/24/2016 1:38:11 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

"Pro how does a punishment of stoning match the crime of lying to your dad/husband about being a virgin?"

The punishment (used by all people of the time period) was to punish sexual sin. When a man/women had an affair and then lied about it...they were punished by death. That is just the way things were back then. People back then cared more about honoring each other than we do in our society.

"Pro is going to make the argument that god is the source of moral authority, then why shouldn't we stone some teenage girls?"

Because God doesn"t ask us to stone teenage girls.

"Pro is owning another human as property moral or not?"

No, that is not moral.

"You can claim god freed slaves, but he made rules for slavery"

No, he put restrictions on slave owners and allowed people to make good and bad decisions. God allows people to make the choice to have slaves. Although it should be noted that he will eventually punish them for their bad choices.

"You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery"

Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people and you would be a dictator. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decisions. He hates slavery but still allows people to make choices. And he also promises it will end.

Ban on slavery = your a dictator.

This announcement was bought to by christian apologetics....................2000 years and this is the best we can do folks.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 1:52:26 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

No, he put restrictions on slave owners

So he violated their free will?

Do restrictions violate free will, yes or no?
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 3:58:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 1:52:26 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

No, he put restrictions on slave owners

So he violated their free will?

Do restrictions violate free will, yes or no?

No...people are still free to ignore the restrictions and God's law. But they will be punished for it.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 3:59:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

"Pro how does a punishment of stoning match the crime of lying to your dad/husband about being a virgin?"

The punishment (used by all people of the time period) was to punish sexual sin. When a man/women had an affair and then lied about it...they were punished by death. That is just the way things were back then. People back then cared more about honoring each other than we do in our society.

"Pro is going to make the argument that god is the source of moral authority, then why shouldn't we stone some teenage girls?"

Because God doesn"t ask us to stone teenage girls.

"Pro is owning another human as property moral or not?"

No, that is not moral.

"You can claim god freed slaves, but he made rules for slavery"

No, he put restrictions on slave owners and allowed people to make good and bad decisions. God allows people to make the choice to have slaves. Although it should be noted that he will eventually punish them for their bad choices.

"You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery"

Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people and you would be a dictator. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decisions. He hates slavery but still allows people to make choices. And he also promises it will end.

Ban on slavery = your a dictator.

This announcement was bought to by christian apologetics....................2000 years and this is the best we can do folks.

Not quite what I said. I said that removing freewill makes someone a dictator. God still sin.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 3:59:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 3:58:05 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:52:26 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

No, he put restrictions on slave owners

So he violated their free will?

Do restrictions violate free will, yes or no?

No...people are still free to ignore the restrictions and God's law. But they will be punished for it.

Ok, so then a restriction like "No slavery" could be freely ignored too?
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:01:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 3:59:47 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 3:58:05 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:52:26 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 1:21:10 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Is God moral? (Pro"s comments in the quotes)

No, he put restrictions on slave owners

So he violated their free will?

Do restrictions violate free will, yes or no?

No...people are still free to ignore the restrictions and God's law. But they will be punished for it.

Ok, so then a restriction like "No slavery" could be freely ignored too?

Sure...but that doesn't mean they won't be punished for the sins they commit.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:04:18 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Follow me Jerry.
You said that for god to put a restriction like No Slavery would be to violate free will, and you just said that restrictions could be ignored and free will would not be violated.

Do you concede that god could have put No Slavery as a restriction, like the restrictions you just said he put on slavery, without violating free will?
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:13:18 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:04:18 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Follow me Jerry.
You said that for god to put a restriction like No Slavery would be to violate free will, and you just said that restrictions could be ignored and free will would not be violated.

Do you concede that god could have put No Slavery as a restriction, like the restrictions you just said he put on slavery, without violating free will?

God allows people to sin. But he also punishes people for sinning. The restrictions were placed because God also cares about the people in slavery.

God could have set "no slavery" as a restriction but this is something that was allowed to happen. God lets people make choices but also has restrictions to make his stance on the matter known and because he cares about people being treated correctly. People are free to ignore the restrictions but they will be punished eventually.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:19:10 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:04:18 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Follow me Jerry.
You said that for god to put a restriction like No Slavery would be to violate free will, and you just said that restrictions could be ignored and free will would not be violated.

Do you concede that god could have put No Slavery as a restriction, like the restrictions you just said he put on slavery, without violating free will?

Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:19:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:13:18 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:04:18 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Follow me Jerry.
You said that for god to put a restriction like No Slavery would be to violate free will, and you just said that restrictions could be ignored and free will would not be violated.

Do you concede that god could have put No Slavery as a restriction, like the restrictions you just said he put on slavery, without violating free will?

God allows people to sin. But he also punishes people for sinning. The restrictions were placed because God also cares about the people in slavery.

God could have set "no slavery" as a restriction but this is something that was allowed to happen. God lets people make choices but also has restrictions to make his stance on the matter known and because he cares about people being treated correctly. People are free to ignore the restrictions but they will be punished eventually.

Jerry, you're dodging.

Is the "No Slavery" restriction a violation of free will like you originally stated, or were you originally wrong?

So god made his stance on the matter of owning humans as property known by saying it's ok with restrictions?
Why didn't he restrict it?
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:23:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.

Try and understand before you leap to conclusions. If you enforced that rule, you would be violating freewill. I never said that a restriction on slavery would violate freewill.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:25:12 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:23:56 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.

Try and understand before you leap to conclusions. If you enforced that rule, you would be violating freewill. I never said that a restriction on slavery would violate freewill.

You mean "enforce" like punish people for violating the rule right?
You said that's what god does.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:26:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:25:12 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:23:56 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.

Try and understand before you leap to conclusions. If you enforced that rule, you would be violating freewill. I never said that a restriction on slavery would violate freewill.

You mean "enforce" like punish people for violating the rule right?
You said that's what god does.

I mean "enforce" like they have no ability to make the decision to have slaves. Punishing people for their bad decisions does not violate their freewill.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:29:17 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:26:41 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:25:12 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:23:56 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.

Try and understand before you leap to conclusions. If you enforced that rule, you would be violating freewill. I never said that a restriction on slavery would violate freewill.

You mean "enforce" like punish people for violating the rule right?
You said that's what god does.

I mean "enforce" like they have no ability to make the decision to have slaves. Punishing people for their bad decisions does not violate their freewill.

Why is god's punishment NOT an enforcement of a rule/restriction?
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:32:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:29:17 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:26:41 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:25:12 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:23:56 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 1/24/2016 4:21:33 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Also...I never said that God putting a restriction like no slavery would be violating free will. I said that God preventing people from being able to have slaves would violate freewill.

From me:
You know what my first rule of slavery would be if I were god and people were sinning and enslaving others as their property? Rule #1 No slavery

From you:
"Yes...and you would be taking away the freewill of all people"

You are dishonest.

Try and understand before you leap to conclusions. If you enforced that rule, you would be violating freewill. I never said that a restriction on slavery would violate freewill.

You mean "enforce" like punish people for violating the rule right?
You said that's what god does.

I mean "enforce" like they have no ability to make the decision to have slaves. Punishing people for their bad decisions does not violate their freewill.

Why is god's punishment NOT an enforcement of a rule/restriction?

It is a type of enforcement but it does not violate freewill. Earlier I was using the word enforcement in a (dictator) way that prevented the person from making the decision at all. When you said you would make a rule "no slavery" I took that to mean you wouldn't allow it to exist at all. That would violate freewill.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:40:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:35:58 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Jerry, come on.

Why didn't god make the restriction, not the enforcement, No Slavery, when it would not violate free will?

I am confused by your question. He did make restrictions on slavery and punished people for not treating each other well. And remember, many people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. It isn't the quite same slavery you are thinking of.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:43:32 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I am confused by your question. He did make restrictions on slavery and punished people for not treating each other well. And remember, many people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. It isn't the quite same slavery you are thinking of.

I had said that if I were god, I would have made the restriction on slavery, No Slavery.

Why did god not make his stance known that he is anti slavery?
Why didn't he make the restriction No Slavery?

Please answer, please understand the questions.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:51:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:43:32 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
I am confused by your question. He did make restrictions on slavery and punished people for not treating each other well. And remember, many people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. It isn't the quite same slavery you are thinking of.

I had said that if I were god, I would have made the restriction on slavery, No Slavery.

Why did god not make his stance known that he is anti slavery?
Why didn't he make the restriction No Slavery?

Please answer, please understand the questions.

Your last question was worded in a strange way.

God taught people to love each other, he freed thousands of slaves, and told people to treat each other right (including slave owners). In the book of Galatians, he made it clear that all people are the same. He made his stance known. he even punished slave owners in the Bible.

Saying "no slavery" isn't a restriction on slavery. Although, remember...what I just said? Most of the Hebrew slaves sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. And no matter what, God commanded them to be free after six years (EX 21:2).

We have to wrap this up soon. It is getting late.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 4:55:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
you just said:
"Saying "no slavery" isn't a restriction on slavery"

If I said ALL SLAVERY IS RESTRICTED, is that a restriction on slavery?
Be honest man.

Why did god not make the restriction "No Slavery?"
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 4:58:58 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 4:55:00 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
you just said:
"Saying "no slavery" isn't a restriction on slavery"

If I said ALL SLAVERY IS RESTRICTED, is that a restriction on slavery?
Be honest man.

Why did god not make the restriction "No Slavery?"

If you said that all slavery is restricted, that means it is restricted. But to say that no slavery can happen is not a restriction. Although God clearly commands his people to treat each other properly.

And again, why have you ignored what I said about slavery?
MagicAintReal
Posts: 591
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1/24/2016 5:02:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Because the debt thing was only Jew to Jew, and they had slaves of different races/religions.

Regardless. Restrictions are limits on actions, and god didn't limit the beating of another human because they are your property.
Why did god not restrict the beating of human property?
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 5:05:05 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 5:02:19 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Because the debt thing was only Jew to Jew, and they had slaves of different races/religions.

Regardless. Restrictions are limits on actions, and god didn't limit the beating of another human because they are your property.
Why did god not restrict the beating of human property?

He did. The Bible says that "if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished."
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 5:09:48 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 5:06:52 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Do you think that god should have restricted the beating a slave within an inch of their life? Yes or no?

Do you also think that God should put something in the Bible about brothers not pinching their sisters?

I mean...people get what God is saying. Treat each other well! God makes his stance clearly known and he doesn't have to address every single scenario to make his point across.
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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1/24/2016 5:18:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/24/2016 5:06:52 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Do you think that god should have restricted the beating a slave within an inch of their life? Yes or no?

Alright, I waited a few moments for a response. Since I have not gotten one I will have to go. To be continued...